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eddie6675
02-10-2005, 01:31 PM
ok folks, I've heard dozens of comments about chinese machines, but never any about indian machinery. Any body know about how these tools are built? (quality)
here's the site i found
http://www.atlasmachinesindia.com/index.htm

Ries
02-10-2005, 02:18 PM
This is a truly amazing web site- these guys are still faithfully copying all kinds of obsolete machines from the 1930's, and selling them to third world countries.
Some of this must be due to the peculiar laws in India- there are, or were until recently, very high tariffs (200% or 300% in some categories) on all imported manufactured goods, so every machine tool in India was locally made. You will note they say their best customers are the Indian government, military, and schools. The Indians also play very fast and loose with intellectual property laws, with exact duplicates of coca cola color schemes and graphics sold legally there for years. So these guys just outright copy all kinds of patented machines, and sell em. They even have a pullmax.
But their newest designs, if you can take the fuzzy little images for accurate, seem to be copies of 1970's machines, and most are even older.
Indian manufacturing quality is not renowned for being the best- its main advantage is low cost.
That said, there are a few indian products sold here in North America, and they are said to be about equal with low end chinese in quality. There were Indian lathes sold in Canada since the 70's, and they are Enco or Harbor Freight quality, some a bit better.
There is a company called Ganesh that is importing some Indian made machine tools in California, but their stuff looks a little more modern than this atlas stuff.
http://www.ganeshmachinery.com/
The blacksmiths are starting to bring in Indian made manual fly presses, mainly because foundry costs in India are so low. Fit and finish is not great, but prices are, and there are very few moving parts. But lathes?
So I guess, if you really wanted to personally import a completely unsupported, ancient design tool of questionable quality, you could go with these guys.
But why? Perfectly good cheap crap is already here, courtesy of many importers of chinese tools.

eddie6675
02-10-2005, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the feed back.I own chinese tools right now and I'm looking to improve.I could not have imagined something worse than low end chinese quality, but now that I think about it, those are some ancient looking machines. never thought of it that way. (copying old designs) Oh what I'd do right now for an old S.B.!

Alistair Hosie
02-10-2005, 04:34 PM
I have a friend in Germany who i9mports some Indian cutter tools, collets, etc.
He told me recently that although Indian stuff was pretty poor ten years ago, but today its getting better and better .
This is what the Japanese did ! there stuff used to be useless, today it's highly prized so watch this space, as they say Alistair

gunsmith
02-10-2005, 06:51 PM
I have bought some bargan cutter and reamers that were on sale from KBC Tools only to discover they were almost unusable. Stamped India. My opinion is they are not even close to the products coming out of China. Worse by far. If you ever watched that documentory on the learning channel about the largest salvage yard in the world you will know were the steel is coming from. Old rusty ships with steel so impregnated with salt even the Asian markets will not buy it. I think anything coming from India will be along time improving. Some of there women are good to look at though. Ever watch Corination Street. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

MJMIKE
02-10-2005, 09:39 PM
I worked for American Tool Works in Cincinnati from 1963 to 1968. About the time I left there they reached a point where they could just not sell an American Pacemaker lathe for a price that would cover the cost to make it, it just contained too many expensive to make parts. To have a manual lathe to sell they imported some Indian lathes made by HMT - Hindustani (sp?) Machine Tool and put US electrics and the American nameplate on them. I never heard the results except that they were not equal to the American lathe.

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Mike

matador
02-10-2005, 11:15 PM
i don't know if you guys have the "GROZ" brand in the USA,i think this is indian stuff.i have a couple of squares and tap and die stocks made by them.can't fault them.better quality than the 40 year old japanese tap and die set handed down from my father.india is catching up rapidly,watch this space.

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Hans

BillH
02-10-2005, 11:18 PM
I have a set of fly cutters made in India. There were not usuable either, until I sharpened them http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

crewchief
02-10-2005, 11:32 PM
i bought an vice made in india absolute crap snapped in half after being used a couple of times thing was full of putty,in my humble opinion indian tools are by far the worst ,and not worth even considering
i bought a record vice made in england for about twice the price/they guarantee the handle will bend before the vice breaks and would be impossible to bend without using a lever
cc

Ries
02-11-2005, 12:38 AM
Yeah, their vises break and their tools may be dull, but they are the only ones I know who make a personal paperclip bending machine that will fit beside your desk, with a 1hp motor-
http://www.atlasmachinesindia.com/179_wood_gem.htm
Be the envy of all your friends, who have to buy storebought paper clips down at Office Depot.

Monarch, Hardinge, and Bridgeport- eat your hearts out.

franco
02-11-2005, 12:53 AM
Same experience as crewchief - I bought a 6" vice marked "Made With Care in India"- I'd hate to see a rough one! It broke in half after a few weeks of light use.

I also have a 6" 4 jaw chuck which I think is Indian. Opposite pairs of jaw guides are parallel to each other, but not in the same plane. None of the jaw guides is parallel to the face of the chuck. I have often wondered how the machinist who made the chuck managed to do this. After regrinding the jaws the chuck is usable, but won't hold work accurately on the jaw steps. Since it came from a closing down sale, I could not return it.

I have a couple of diestocks and tap wrenches from India which don't get much use, but so far are OK.

franco

Allan Waterfall
02-11-2005, 04:21 AM
I once worked in a factory that had an Indian charge hand.
If something broke down his first thought was that it could be repaired with either a piece of string or a hammer.

Allan

Guero
02-11-2005, 04:38 AM
Matador, I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I believe GROZ products come from Poland or one of the other European countries.

Rustybolt
02-11-2005, 08:15 AM
About 15 years ago they(India) came out with a centerless grinder that was supposed to be an exact copy of a Cincinati No2 OM. The most popular centerless grinder ever built. They LOOKED good. They just didn't do what a centerless grinder was supposed to do.Bearings burned out, couldn't hold size, etc.
Unless their quality has improved greatly, I'd stay away from them. The Chinese stuff is bad enough.

Ries
02-11-2005, 12:51 PM
I live near vancouver canada, which has a very substantial Indian and Pakistani population. I enjoy visiting Punjabi Marketplace, the Indian neighborhood. I love Indian food, and buy various Indian knicknacks, and my wife does a lot of business with the Indian fabric dealers up there. They are wonderful, intelligent, and caring people. I am not in any way trying to put down Indians. But I was up there during Diwali, a big Indian holiday, and I came across these amazing light up, musical revolving tabletop displays of various gods- I bought one with Baby Krishna on it, and the background is a motorised cross between a light show from a grateful dead concert, and an old Hamms beer sign with the moving waterfall like they used to have in taverns. It plays 6 different indian songs, from a chip. It is 12" in diameter, and quite the crowd pleaser at parties. When I was buying it, I noticed it said "made in china" on the back. I asked the Indian store owner I bought it from about this, and he said- "Oh no- Indian quality is very poor- we buy only chinese products".
And the fabric dealers my wife buys from, who have been in business for over 3 generations, in India, Japan, Canada, and England, buy their fabrics in Korea, Japan, and Italy, with a few of the lesser quality things coming from China. Then they sell them in Canada and India.
The Indians are a very well educated country, and in computer science and other tech fields they are making amazing advances very quickly- from dirt floor villages to high tech in 10 years. But their manufacturing standards for metalwork seem to be stuck in the distant past.