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Sprague M
02-21-2005, 02:34 PM
Last summer lightning hit the shop. Took out all of our cnc communication and the computer they were hooked to (RS232)
Now I type in the programs one charechter at a time. Of course not all the programs were backed up and I need some of them.
There is a chip on the back of the harddrive that is burned so I cannot do a slave and recover the data. The quotes that I have gotten are $1200 on up to do a professionally recovery. NOT worth it.
But in the back of my mind I am thinking about how to do it myself. The shop has run for 8 months without the data , safe to say that if I wreck it nothing lost.
Any ideas. Piggy back on a diffrent pcb? or remove the platters and install in a good drive? No longer a job it's a Quest.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 02:47 PM
What type of drive is it? IDE, MFM, RLL, ESDI, SCSI?

You should be able to find an identical drive somewhere and just replace the drive's controller board. You might need to match the drive's revision numbers too if they have different firmware that deals with data encoding differences. If you give me the drive's complete model number, I'm sure I can quickly give you a link where you can buy another drive for a few bucks and then you can just replace the controller boards yourself.

Whatever you do, don't open up the drive.

-3Ph

Sprague M
02-21-2005, 03:05 PM
The drive is out of a Packard Bell pc. I think IDE. Heres what is on the label
Quantum Fireball lct
15 OAT P/N LB15AO11 rev 01-A

Let me know if there is any other info you need.

Matt

Evan
02-21-2005, 03:08 PM
Replacing the controller with another will sometimes work. The controller keeps a map of bad sectors in a flash rom. The bad sector maps won't match and if the other controller has mapped a bad sector over some of your data then it won't be readable.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 03:08 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sprague M:
The drive is out of a Packard Bell pc. I think IDE. Heres what is on the label
Quantum Fireball lct
15 OAT P/N LB15AO11 rev 01-A

Let me know if there is any other info you need.

Matt</font>


BTW, Is this you? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

http://www.eio.com/public/harddrv/0741.html

I'm trying to locate another drive for you.. Sit tight.

-3Ph

Sprague M
02-21-2005, 03:13 PM
No thats not me but it does make me feel better.
Evan, what is a controller?

Matt

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 03:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Replacing the controller with another will sometimes work. The controller keeps a map of bad sectors in a flash rom. The bad sector maps won't match and if the other controller has mapped a bad sector over some of your data then it won't be readable.</font>

The bad block table is always on the disk, not the controller. The bad block sectors are outside of the logical sector range. Are are also backup bad block sectors incase one of those bad block sectors become bad.

IDE drives are just integrated ST-506 controllers.

-3Ph

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 03:17 PM
Is this your drive? Referb is $95. If you can confirm that this is your drive, I'll find one for cheaper..

http://www.hd4less.com/quanfirlc15u.html

-3Ph


[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 02-21-2005).]

Sprague M
02-21-2005, 03:31 PM
Well for what it's worth I can find the (lct 10) on the Harddrive and also the numbers (15 OAT) do match up to the replacement shown,
is this enough to be right? Looking at the site from the previous post alot of these quantums had the identical problem in the same chip as ours.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 03:36 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sprague M:
Well for what it's worth I can find the (lct 10) on the Harddrive and also the numbers (15 OAT) do match up to the replacement shown,
is this enough to be right? Looking at the site from the previous post alot of these quantums had the identical problem in the same chip as ours. </font>

To insure success, you really need to use the same exact model number and revision. Can you take a picture of both sides of the drive (The controller side, and the platter side)?

-3Ph

Evan
02-21-2005, 03:56 PM
Some drives store the bad block list on the disc but not all.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Do Not: Under no circumstances should you attempt to swap the controller board on one of these faulty drives with one from a working drive. IT WILL NOT WORK. This is because the information held on the failed drive is unique to each drive. Changing the controller board may very well cause a mechanical failure and render your recoverable data unrecoverable.</font>

http://www.dataclinic.co.uk/fujitsu-hard-disk-recovery.htm

Sprague M
02-21-2005, 04:17 PM
Trying to get information from Quantum, who sent me to Maxtor. Thats where I am at now, I am told this is a very common problem, probably coincedental to the lightning strike. Burns out the( motor )?control chip made by Philips.
Will try to post my pictures this evening.

Evan- is the controller the printed circuit board screwed to the back? And if so it cannot be replaced to recover the data? How about replaceing the chip? Or could I add solder on the chip? I have no idea- learning as I destroy http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Sprague M (edited 02-21-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 04:20 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Some drives store the bad block list on the disc but not all.

http://www.dataclinic.co.uk/fujitsu-hard-disk-recovery.htm</font>


Of course data recovery houses don't want you to recover your own data. Some drives might contain physical alignment parameters, and certain look up tables to fix non-linear head or stepper abnormalities but that would never stop me from swapping drive controllers in order to try and recover my own data..

Fortunatly, all drives store their bad block lists right on the platters that have the bad blocks. "Flash" memory is very expensive compaired to a few sectors on a disk. Think about how silly that would be to use flash memory to store bad block information on a disk that only has a few dollars of margin. Also, when platters are manafacuted, the bad blocks are already written to them prior to being installed in a spindle/drive.

-3Ph

nheng
02-21-2005, 04:24 PM
You might also lose temperature compensation data related to accurate servo operation but that wouldn't stop me either.

Several weeks ago I had a laptop drive die really hard in my daughter's notebook. Having nothing to lose, I wacked it on the kitchen (wooden) table on all axis until the head dragging noise subsided (powered down and out of the notebook of course). The system was able to make much better boot progress with the "whacked" drive but it now sits on my pile of collected SMT electronic assemblies since I had a spare waiting http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Evan
02-21-2005, 04:30 PM
The controller is the circuit board. I don't have a fireball handy to look at but one real problem on many drives is the use of extremely fragile ribbon conductors to the controller board. They are not designed for multiple insertions in the socket and are very easy to damage. Of course, you have nothing to lose.

Sprague M
02-21-2005, 04:41 PM
Ok here we go. No longer a warranty, company A sold to company B do not support...Blah Blah Blah,
Seems it is a heat problem, diodes get hot and melt chip, driver no longer spins platters...
Suggested fix- same model board ie. lct 10
HDD size is irrelavant mine is 15 something.
Replace board, recover data and chuck harddrive..
3ph- thats the correct board, cheaper is better. I really apreciate all the info and help, learned alot today.
BTW alot of these drives out there with this chip/problem. Warning sign is HDD sounding like its pounding it's way out of the case.

Matt

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 04:50 PM
Here is a picture of the controller card removed from a drive, and also this drive is a special because it's running my own custom firmware which causes the controller to read every sector from the drive and sequence each 16-bit word out on the data bus at 44,100 hz. I can connect the drive right up to a 16-bit D-to-A and it plays about 30 mins of CD-quality audio that I preloaded onto the drive before I replaced the firmware with my own custom creation.

http://www.gnuxtools.com/temp/DSCN4395.jpg

-3Ph

retep
02-21-2005, 09:44 PM
What can I say, wow! How'd ya learn to do that? Like where did you get the documentation for how to write that special firmware?


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:

Here is a picture of the controller card removed from a drive, and also this drive is a special because it's running my own custom firmware which causes the controller to read every sector from the drive and sequence each 16-bit word out on the data bus at 44,100 hz. I can connect the drive right up to a 16-bit D-to-A and it plays about 30 mins of CD-quality audio that I preloaded onto the drive before I replaced the firmware with my own custom creation.

http://www.gnuxtools.com/temp/DSCN4395.jpg

-3Ph</font>

darryl
02-21-2005, 10:07 PM
I once drove for 22 hrs towing a tandem uhaul full of furniture and other crap through a blinding snowstorm up past Williams Lake and on to Granisle. That was a hard drive. The only thing needing to recover from that was me. In those conditions, you get board of that circuit really quickly.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how you make out with the data recovery. I came very close to trying this myself once, but I couldn't find the same drive to rob the board from. The quoted cost to recover the data was 1600 to 2200 cdn.

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-21-2005, 11:39 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by retep:
What can I say, wow! How'd ya learn to do that? Like where did you get the documentation for how to write that special firmware?

</font>

The original firmware was on a standard 27c256 PROM which I just read into my computer using a universal device programmer that I made a long time ago. The micro controller used for this drive is a little 8-bit motorola microcontroller. I ordered the databook and users manual for the same 8-bit motorola microcontroller. I wrote a disassembler, an assembler, and simulator for the microcontroller (very simple RISC type core with 30 or so instructions if I remember). Only took a few days to write and test all of the tools I needed. Once I could disassemble the firmware, I learned almost everything about the controller via the initial diag code that started executing right at the reset vector. I could run a lot of the firmware in my simulator but I had no idea what any of the I/O was doing when the firmware was accessing I/O address space off the chip so that's where most of my time was spent -- trying to figure out what the I/O registers did. I was able to find some common Read/write entrypoints in the firmware that did complete sector read/write operations into local microcontroller's dual ported memory so I basically stole those routines and that's all I needed to start streaming data out the latched data port on the ST-506 controller. The hardest part was trying to create a continious stream of data out of the latched data bus at 44,100hz. The hardware wasn't designed to do that so I had to write a lot of firmware to double buffer the data and trickle it out one 16-bit word at a time.

I had plans on driving a multi-sync monitor with a hard disk by streaming data from the disk and using one TTL data bit to drive V-sync, one TTL bit to drive H-sync, and 3 TTL bits to drive red/green/blue (Saturate really). The idea was to pre-program a stream of data out of the drive at the lowest V-sync rate supported by a monitor and drive V/H Sync and RGB from the databus on the hard disk. The firmware I write would just stream the same video frame out of the drive over and over. I lost interest due to some other more exciting project but I always wished I finished my hard disk video project.

-3Ph

Thrud
02-22-2005, 03:49 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
... the use of extremely fragile ribbon conductors to the controller board. They are not designed for multiple insertions in the socket and are very easy to damage. </font>

Quit living in the nineties - noboby uses ribbon connectors in hardrives EXCEPT inside on the head accutator and they are actually flexable circuit boards. Everyone uses high pressure pin pads on the back of the circuit boards now because they are far more relieable under high temperatures.

3PH
I am jealous - a plcc rom burner? Must be nice! That is a cool hack, but it is easier tfor the average guy to use a small pc104 running Linux and a 400Gb HD to store a couble songs - don;t know how reliable it would be in my 4x4 - scared to try.

I have some Dec 8"er's you think the boards would work on his Maxtor/Quantoum? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Thrud
02-22-2005, 03:56 AM
Sprague M:
I just checked my hoard or useless crap and unfortunately I do not have ne of those - if I did, it would be yours.

If you call around to some of the computer stores you may be able to find one - it should not cost more that $50 (cdn$) though as this is a dead product and 120Gb SATA 2 drives are only $100 (Maxtor/Seagate). If you had done this when it happened, you could have been up an running long ago, but 6 months is forever with harddrive technology.

Sprague M
02-22-2005, 09:35 AM
Thrud

I figure if I waited long enough it would be like christmas for a poor boy like me.

Matt

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-22-2005, 01:06 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
Quit living in the nineties - noboby uses ribbon connectors in hardrives EXCEPT inside on the head accutator and they are actually flexable circuit boards. Everyone uses high pressure pin pads on the back of the circuit boards now because they are far more relieable under high temperatures.

3PH
I am jealous - a plcc rom burner? Must be nice! </font>

My universal device programmer has a 48 pin dip socket. I just use a PLCC to DIP adapter like this one:

http://progshop.com/photos/ba_plcc32_dip32_500.jpg

I have many SOJ-&gt;DIP, SOIC-&gt;DIP, TSOP-&gt;DIP, PLCC-&gt;DIP, PGA-&gt;DIP, and even a small BGA-&gt;DIP adapter so I can read/verify/program almost any device including most OTP microcontrollers. I also have a full blown Xilinx development system for large scale FPGA development.



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
That is a cool hack, but it is easier tfor the average guy to use a small pc104 running Linux and a 400Gb HD to store a couble songs - don;t know how reliable it would be in my 4x4 - scared to try.</font>

I did that around 11 years ago. Today, I have no interest in anything less than 32 bits. I have a full blown operating system that I designed/developed from scratch that runs on over a dozzen different 32/64 bit CPU/architectures. I port my OS to just about everything I can get my hands on. One of these days I'll release it to the public and open source it.



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
I have some Dec 8"er's you think the boards would work on his Maxtor/Quantoum? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
</font>

Your Dec 8" controller boards should work on your desk, or even on your floor, but I would make sure you insulate the board before trying to use them "on a maxtor" or on any other conductive surface. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-3Ph

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-22-2005, 02:06 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sprague M:
Thrud

I figure if I waited long enough it would be like christmas for a poor boy like me.

Matt</font>


Don't wait too long.. The price starts to go back up eventually... Last week I paid $75 for an early 80's 10mb Corvus hard disk on Ebay and that's a steel. I wish I still had my original 1978 Apple ][ (not the PLUS) -- One just sold for $800 on Ebay. I threw my Apple ][ away a long time ago.

-3Ph

Thrud
02-23-2005, 01:39 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:

Don't wait too long.. The price starts to go back up eventually... Last week I paid $75 for an early 80's 10mb Corvus hard disk on Ebay and that's a steel. I wish I still had my original 1978 Apple ][ (not the PLUS) -- One just sold for $800 on Ebay. I threw my Apple ][ away a long time ago.

-3Ph</font>

Holy crap - I'm rich - how many you want...?
You need some MFM, RLL or ESDI drives or something? I have some - what do you want? Or are you just waxing nostalgic? Eventually I just scrap them for the screws bearings and servos anyway. Have some SCSI and SCSI CD-roms as well - pissed off that adaptec bought out DPT and then dropped support - they should have kept the dpt and dropped the adaptec crap...

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 02-23-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
02-23-2005, 01:56 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
Holy crap - I'm rich - how many you want...?
You need some MFM, RLL or ESDI drives or something? I have some - what do you want? Or are you just waxing nostalgic?</font>

The first hard disk I ever had was a used Corvus Systems 20mb 8" Winchester for my Apple ][. I think I was around 14 years old when I bought it. Saved up over a year on my paper route for that damn hard disk. Cost me around $700 bucks and it crashed hard about 6 months after I had it.. I never fully recovered from that.. I wish I kept it so I could fix it now but I just didn't have the knowledge back then.. I'd pay $700 right now to get my old crashed hard disk back in the same condition it was when I threw it out 20+ years ago.

The smaller 10mb model I bought on Ebay might be as close as I can get.

-3Ph