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Allan Waterfall
03-03-2005, 09:25 AM
A few pics of the crash,apparently one of the eight engines was salvaged.

http://www.stukastudios.se/b52.htm

Allan

Orrin
03-03-2005, 10:58 AM
That's a heartbreaker. Does anyone know what happened to cause the crash?

Orrin

topct
03-03-2005, 11:29 AM
Just watched the video. Looks almost identical the crash of a real B-52 at Fairchild Air Force base here in Spokane Wa.

They were practicing some low level maneuvers for an annual air show they put on.

They were at maybe only 500 ft. and the pilot made an extremely tight turn and it appeared that the plane just couldn't maintain lift. The wing was almost verticle just like that model.

There was a film crew that captured the entire event, accept that in this case, they caught it as it hit the ground.

The B-52 is one of historys most reliable aircraft. However, whether it be a model or the real thing, exceding the limits of design will get you into trouble.

The real crash here was blamed on pilot error, and after seeing the movie of the model, it looks like that's what happened to it also.



------------------
Gene

precisionworks
03-03-2005, 11:35 AM
That's enough to make a grown man cry.

Spin Doctor
03-03-2005, 11:36 AM
In my book it is one of the top five R/C planes ever built along with the B-29 for the Right Stuff and the Handley Page Victor built by a guy in Britian whose name escapes me right now

sch
03-03-2005, 02:52 PM
A real B52 crashed in the same way in low level flight prepping for an airshow, plane made turn, lost speed, lift and ball of fire resulted. Comment in magazine:
"Pilots have to remember the buff can fly itself into situations it can't fly out of"
which of course applies to all planes.
Steve

[This message has been edited by sch (edited 03-03-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 03:31 PM
Yup... It happens to the best of us.. Rebuilding is part of the hobby..

Here is a tip though: When your flying in combat, never look at the other airplane, keep your eyes always on YOUR airplane.. Always try and take-out your appoonents streamer on an up-climb (Allways pull up into them and never dive downwards at your opponent)..

He who hits the ground LAST wins... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

-3Ph

Evan
03-03-2005, 03:52 PM
The mistake appears to be the classic one where the aircraft was starting to bank and the pilot misinterpreted the direction of bank. In correcting for the bank he corrected in the wrong direction making the bank worse until it was too late.

debequem
03-03-2005, 04:02 PM
Amazing. That thing weighs more than some real sail planes that you can get in and actually fly!

Marv

Allan Waterfall
03-03-2005, 04:09 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:


Here is a tip though: When your flying in combat, never look at the other airplane, keep your eyes always on YOUR airplane.. Always try and take-out your appoonents streamer on an up-climb (Allways pull up into them and never dive downwards at your opponent)..

-3Ph</font>

Sorry,can't agree with any of that.Always know where the other plane is,if the speeds are about equal he'll be going round faster if he's higher up,so if you are below, your speed is slower relatively...Go for the streamer at ANY opportunity,even if your opponent is only 12" from the deck.
The first man to hit the floor often wins if he's got enough points already,your opponent needs to be flying for you to score any more points.

Sometimes I still miss flying combat,but old farts like me can't move as fast as some of you young pups. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Allan



[This message has been edited by Allan Waterfall (edited 03-03-2005).]

Allan Waterfall
03-03-2005, 04:11 PM
Double post again,my fault

[This message has been edited by Allan Waterfall (edited 03-03-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 04:37 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Allan Waterfall:
Sorry,can't agree with any of that.Always know where the other plane is,if the speeds are about equal he'll be going round faster if he's higher up,so if you are below, your speed is slower relatively...Go for the streamer at ANY opportunity,even if your opponent is only 12" from the deck.
The first man to hit the floor often wins if he's got enough points already,your opponent needs to be flying for you to score any more points.

Sometimes I still miss flying combat,but old farts like me can't move as fast as some of you young pups. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Allan

[This message has been edited by Allan Waterfall (edited 03-03-2005).]</font>

You must play combat with rubber band powered airplanes.. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif We're a little crazy at our field.. At the speeds we play, you need to keep your eyes on your own airplane otherwise your plane is in the ground or you'r asking someone else if they know where your plane is. When focusing on your airplane, you need to also keeping track of the fuzzy dot (the other guy).

I'm sure I would be cutting your streamer at least 10 times before it touches the ground... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

-3Ph

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 04:48 PM
I can't watch the crash video but I was able to watch the take-off video... Is the crash video and take-off video in different formats?

I'm not using Windows so it looks like the crash video is a Windows WMV file maybe?

-3Ph

Allan Waterfall
03-03-2005, 05:05 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:

I'm sure I would be cutting your streamer at least 10 times before it touches the ground... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif
-3Ph
</font>

The over confident ones were always the easiest to beat. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

A good man knows where his model is by the feel at the handle. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

I've still got 3 models and enough lines,props etc.

Allan



[This message has been edited by Allan Waterfall (edited 03-03-2005).]

topct
03-03-2005, 05:06 PM
Yes, WMV file. Watch if you can. Looks to me like the pilot thought the plane plane might fly like something smaller and lighter. He banks it real hard. Can't do that on something this size or the real one.

I could see an RC'er making the correction mistake if the plane was coming at him, but I would assume this was an experienced pilot.

------------------
Gene

The pilot of the real one that crashed was a known hot dog and show off. He was going for max effect of a plane that size making a really tight turn a couple of hundred feet above the crowd.

[This message has been edited by topct (edited 03-03-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 05:18 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by topct:
Yes, WMV file. Watch if you can. Looks to me like the pilot thought the plane plane might fly like something smaller and lighter. He banks it real hard. Can't do that on something this size or the real one.

I could see an RC'er making the correction mistake if the plane was coming at him, but I would assume this was an experienced pilot.

</font>

I wish I could see the crash video... I'll have to check it out tonight on my windows laptop..

It sounds like he banked it but didn't have enough speed to maintain the bank and just stalled it. As soon as you bank, you need to maintain the bank with elevator and additional power now that you've added the elevator drag..

There is no way a pilot flying a turbine powered jet would have so little experience that they would gave the wrong alieron input, so I highly doubt it was a beginners mistake like that..

I've flown hundreds of airplanes. I was an instructor for a little while but I didn't have the patience so I stopped training people.

I remember I took off one of my airplanes for the first time and I had the alieron direction in my radio reversed so the alierons operated backwads.. Luckely I didn't crash it but I did have a friend come over and re-program the alieron direction in my Futaba U-8 while I continuted to fly it with reversed alierons. I'm sure I could have landed it, but it was kind of cool to have someone re-program my radio while I'm flying an airplane with it at the same time.

-3Ph

Allan Waterfall
03-03-2005, 05:37 PM
I think he probably backed the power off going downwind and was going too slow and when he tried to do a downwind turn, he just didn't have enough airspeed to keep it flying.There's always a strong wind blowing where that was.It's about 20 miles from where I live.

It's usual to have two or three people flying something like that,one person on the motors and one of the others actually flying it. I think all we can do is speculate.

The majority of scale model flyers spend more time building than flying,they are mostly capable flyers,but the thought of all the time and money spent tends to make for a tense flying session where it's easy to freeze on the controls.

Like doing a low level inverted pass and pulling up in.

3ph....Yup,I like to be up close and personal. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Allan

[This message has been edited by Allan Waterfall (edited 03-03-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 05:37 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Allan Waterfall:

I've still got 3 models and enough lines,props etc.
</font>

Oh, are you talking about control-line combat? I've never flown control line. I'm talking about open field R/C airplane combat (Not by AMA rules either).

-3Ph

debequem
03-03-2005, 05:38 PM
Combat techniques for aircraft vary somewhat depending on type and era, but you need to fly your own aircraft first. There is a great read at:

http://luthier.stormloader.com/home.html

This is the old Soviet tactics for WWII, which is very interesting. Those were the days of the “knife fight in a phone booth” engagements. Very romantic to think about, but the pucker factor for the combatants is something else!

However, some basic tactics are situational awareness and speed. First, you need to know where you are and any threats that are around you. Second, speed is your friend and can be thought more correctly as energy and energy management is extremely important.

Cornering speed is critical when in a close-in dogfight and must be observed to make best use of turn rates, but overall energy will determine if you can overtake your target or escape from your target.

Any threat that flies itself into the ground, although may not be considered a kill, is no longer a threat, period. CFIT is a loosing proposition for the mishap aircraft, but a win for the aggressor.

Modern day dogfights are essentially obsolete. While training still continues, modern combat engagements are almost always BVR (Beyond Visual Range) and require very little aerobatic techniques. The exception is missile avoidance and that is typically done by visually sighting the threat, placing it abeam of the aircraft, and deploying countermeasures. I have run a number of combat simulations under these conditions and it still amazes me how the real drivers manage to evade missiles so effectively. I must confess that I lack that skill utterly!

Modern day air-to-air missiles are extremely effective and it boils down to who can lock and shoot first within the kill zone of the missile. My favorite is the “slammer” or AIM120 and its variants. I supplied some gear for a certain “customer” that were testing two green F/A-22 pilots against 8 experience pilots in mixed aircraft types. These were all done in simulators. There were 8 aggressor pilots that were assigned 28 aircraft, so as the F/A-22 pilots engaged and destroyed an aggressor it would be “reborn” until all 28 aggressors were used up or the F/A-22s were taken out. The result was classified, but the test sponsors were betting that the 8 experienced pilots flying the 28 aggressor aircraft could not touch the junior F/A-22s. My guess was that they couldn’t do it because the effective kill radius of the F/A-22 is greater than any other aircraft and the superior angle of attack (AOA) of the F/A-22 punctuates the prowess of the Raptor for target acquisition.

Marv

Evan
03-03-2005, 05:44 PM
It's not a rookie mistake. The plane started to roll and because of distance and lighting he simply misinterpreted the direction of roll. If you look at the video when it starts to roll you can't tell for sure which way it is rolling. It's an easy mistake to make but on a plane that size you don't get a second chance. I also get the feeling watching the takeoff that it didn't handle all that well either.

Watching the video again it looks like it is banking to return to the runway when it actually is banking away.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 03-03-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 05:44 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Allan Waterfall:


3ph....Yup,I like to be up close and personal. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Allan

[This message has been edited by Allan Waterfall (edited 03-03-2005).]</font>

Control line combat? I've never done that. I've watched one person fly a control line airplane for about 3 minutes and I got a headache. Later the guy told us he put too much fuel in and normally he only flies for about 1 minute.

Are you aloud to let your line wrap around the other guys neck? Seems like an easy way to win. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

-3Ph

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 05:59 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
It's not a rookie mistake. The plane started to roll and because of distance and lighting he simply misinterpreted the direction of roll. If you look at the video when it starts to roll you can't tell for sure which way it is rolling. It's an easy mistake to make but on a plane that size you don't get a second chance. I also get the feeling watching the takeoff that it didn't handle all that well either.</font>

I'll have to watch the video when I get home tonight.. Was the video zoomed in? Usually you can never see airplanes very well on NTSC video (They are always much easier to see in person) -- Unless they were zoomed right in on it.

-3Ph

turn2pb
03-03-2005, 06:58 PM
Don't some of the model airplanes have a control feature that can get them to correct themselves to level flight if you get into trouble?

Brent

Evan
03-03-2005, 07:04 PM
Yes, autopilots are available.

tattoomike68
03-03-2005, 07:11 PM
ewwwww just saw the video, they better stick to making pizza and lay off the vodka.

my first rc plane flew for 4 seconds and crashed, lmao, thats the way it goes.

IOWOLF
03-03-2005, 07:24 PM
If you have enough dihedral(sp)you can go hands off but it is not ever recomended.You possibly can recover it if you keep flying or at least say you tried.

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 08:04 PM
I just watched the video.. Video quality is terrible.

I think it was a mechnical problem. His air speed and control looked fine.

I think he lost power in one or more engines on the left wing and he was not able to adjust the power or didn't have enough rudder to compensate for it.. Flying a twin (or in this case an 8) can be very tricky if you don't have a perfectly synchronized throttle management system.

My opionion is he knew how to fly, but experienced a mechnical failure. Flying a turbine airplane is like trying to take a car off in 5th gear from a complete stop. I would say pilot error would be on the bottom of my list with this one.

Adrian

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 08:31 PM
Wow!!!! I guess he didn't know how to fly afterall.

I found this crash report. Shocking!!

http://www.gordon-nichols.com/news/big-buff-crash-report.asp

-3Ph

topct
03-03-2005, 08:48 PM
"Mechanical failure"

Yup. Gotta be that.

topct
03-03-2005, 08:57 PM
Oh, and yes, the 'I was distracted' excuse.

That's why I killed you. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 09:03 PM
Does anyone have Real Flight G2? I can setup a server and people can come fly at my virtual flying field with Real Flight G2 if you have the software....

HEY!! G3 is now available too:

http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/realflight/gpmz4400.html

-3Ph

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 09:09 PM
Is this the same guy flying in G3?

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

http://12.156.2.54/videos/bloopers%20high%20res.wmv

-3Ph

jkilroy
03-03-2005, 10:40 PM
You got to give the guy credit, he jumped right back up on the horse and is busy building number 2.

------------------
James Kilroy

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-03-2005, 10:55 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jkilroy:
You got to give the guy credit, he jumped right back up on the horse and is busy building number 2.

</font>

I think building is more rewarding that flying anyway.. I was going to get into turbine R/C but we don't have any place I could fly them at.. You really need a paved runway due to the 5th Gear take off issue.

-3Ph

BillH
03-03-2005, 11:04 PM
I lost my favorite RC model right after I just overhauled it and upgraded the weapons systems to launch rockets off the wings. Thats what happends when you forget to charge your transmitter!