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crewchief
03-19-2005, 01:10 AM
just pulled my john deere ride on mower deck apart,got a real noisy bearing in cutter spindle.when i pulled the bearing it was stamped "made in russia",i can not believe
john deere would do such a thing,the mower is only sixty hours old!guess i won't buying
any more john deere equipment cc

Carl
03-19-2005, 03:44 AM
I bought a GM crate engine. It's a small block chevy, an engine I have had good luck with since the first one I owned when I was 16 years old. The crankshaft broke at the harmonic balancer keyway with only 12,000 miles on the engine. Cast into the engine are the words: "HECHO EN MEXICO" (made in Mexico).

.RC.
03-19-2005, 04:05 AM
If you want to blame someone blame corporate capitalism and the government....Profits at any cost..

crewchief
03-19-2005, 04:06 AM
from what i am told about russian bearings, if you can find one round ball your doing well...........i still cant believe it! whats the world coming too...............cc

Buckshot
03-19-2005, 04:14 AM
.........Re: The Chebbie. I guess maybe close to 20 years ago I helped a friend put a new Mr Good Wrench 350 crate engine in his Suburban. When we opend the crate I was surprised to see cast atop the bellhousing "Hecho en Mexico". I figured, heck it's Chevy so it's gotta be to spec, especially since it had a 3 year warranty.

Sometime afterwards I was reading a car mag and it admonished users to stay far way from the Mexican blocks. They said they were okay for mom's grocery getter but don't even THINK about increasing performance while using that block.

Rick

crewchief
03-19-2005, 04:17 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ringer:
If you want to blame someone blame corporate capitalism and the government....Profits at any cost..</font>
yes ringer you right ,for a few cents they throw away there good name,how stupid is that??

speedy
03-19-2005, 05:45 AM
Hey, we have a large number of crappy American companies over here, they are buying us up wholesale, slashing wages and conditions. Now "made in NZ" is coming to mean crappy quality also.
Don't be surprised, you're only the consumer and eventually you will have to just bite the bullet and buy another piece of sh*t to replace that other piece of sh*t....and on.
Great aye?? more profit for company "X".

How else can they compete with the East??

signed: cynical, pessimistic, sorry assed consumer http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Ken

[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 03-19-2005).]

Your Old Dog
03-19-2005, 07:02 AM
Maybe it would help if we taxed corporations some more. Maybe if we punitively stuck it to them, burned them at the stake and made more layers of federal and state regulations and hoops for them to jump thru that might help too. We should remove any reason they might have to carry on with their product and pay American workers to make them here in America. Lets run those taxes up till we are all setting at home on welfare.

Follow the tax liability for a piece of steel from the ground to the dinner table and you'll find out your fork is worth as much as your dinner table.

I think it's human nature to buy what is less expensive so in a sense it's our own fault. However, it should be the American governments job to create an invironment where American people/companys can succeed for the good of the people and not just the IRS tax office. If I heard it correctly, because the tax laws are so complicated the IRS has over 100 employees assigned to Cheverolet to keep their tax records straight. A flat tax would take care of that. Even for the "filthy" rich. Make it damn near anything you want and I'll learn to live with it and prosper. Beware the Ides of April as there are a lot of people here who still don't think we pay enough taxes and want bigger tax returns for people who don't even pay tax ! Oh Yea!
(crap........someone got me started http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif )



[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 03-19-2005).]

QSIMDO
03-19-2005, 08:15 AM
I understand that Chevy is buying engines from Honda and the engines in the new Equinox are made in China.

The right tooling, specs and material and you could build stuff on a glacier these days I guess.

MarkT
03-19-2005, 09:00 AM
Ah, something I feel qualified to rant about...

I agree with Ringer but I would rephrase it to all corporate America cares about is short term profits at any cost. Nobody looks at long term consequences anymore, they only look as far as the next quarter. They have to make next quarters numbers look good or the stock price will go down. If the stock price goes down management might lose their bonus, and we can't have that. If they do well this quarter but sink the company long term that is okay, they can just switch to a new company next year - long before the company tanks.

Far too much of corporate thinking is for the short term, for the next quarter.

damphmann
03-19-2005, 09:21 AM
Fellas,

And now it is time for my rant...

First, if you want to blame anyone for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the United States, look no further than your big corporations. Jobs aren't being lost because CEOs can't afford to pay workers union scale, rather, jobs are being eliminated so corporate big-wigs can line their pockets with more money. Even during the recent recession, corporate profits continued to rise as more and more jobs were lost. Take the following example, gasoline prices are now at an all-time high. Don't worry, while you are forced to dig deeper and deeper into your pockets and American men and women continue to die in foreign lands, Exxon, Shell, et. al just posted record quarterly profits. The high gas prices aren't a result of "lower production" as we are made to believe. Instead, we've managed to help Mr. CEO buy another 20 room mansion. The least they can do is name their new villas after us-- "Broken Spirit Acres" has a nice ring to it.

I've lived in America's rust belt all my life. The economic picture here is still dismal. We are still deep in recession. Every day the newspaper reports plant closings and more job losses. You can't convince me there is not a problem when ships enter our port to OFFload steel. My city used to be one of the largest steel exporters in the world-- no more.

We often here Americans won't buy American goods because they cost too much compared to their foreign counterparts. Bull****! Jump into my time machine and let's take a trip back a short time ago when much fewer foreign-made products sat on our shelves. (There was also a time when the only language packages were labeled in was English! Now you need an interpreter to just buy a toaster.) Were Americans refusing to buy American-made products? I don't think so. Were Americans saying, "Gosh, I wish this __________ cost 34 cents less. Then I would be able to afford it." I don't think so. Yet we still managed to live comfortably and purchase the products we needed and even some of the one we wanted. Okay, it's time to jump back into my time machine. No, you can't stay here. Otherwise you'll f-up the whole space-time continuum. Back to 2005...

Again, ask yourself, "Who is responsible for the economic situation we find ourselves in today?" Don't point your fingers at the workers. When was the last time you said to yourself, "You know, Joe Factory Worker is making way too much money. As a matter of fact, that greedy bastard is now taking a second job just so he can afford to pay his utilities. Who does he think he is?"

Okay, follow my lead. Point your fingers at greedy corporate fat cats who continue to rape American workers and strip them of their dignity, health benefits (a subject for another rant later), and honest wages. They are responsible for this mess and spoon feeding us all their "Boo-hoo, pitty the corporation" propoganda.

Sooner or later (I'm lean hard towards the latter), Americans will wake up and begin to question what is happening and whether saving two dollars on a coffee maker is worth sacrificing our long standing industrial tradition and our pride. Unless we make some serious changes, pretty soon China will replace the United States as the world's superpower.

Now doesn't that just make you feel better?

Sincerely,

Damphmann

P.S. Here's something for all of you railroad junkies to think about. The next time you get a woody when a milelong double stack blows past you at 60 miles per hour, say to yourself, "There goes a mile long train filled with imported crap!" The double stack may signal the rebirth of railroading in the United States, but it also signals the end of domestic manufacturing. Ironic.

johnhurd
03-19-2005, 09:40 AM
Just reading through here looks like mostly Union workers. It is always easier to blame those at the top, surely the Unions have had no impact on any of our woes ....right????

&lt; looking for my Nomex &gt;

jamscal
03-19-2005, 10:02 AM
johnhurd: I think you're right about the union thing. I'm a UAW-Ford autoworker, and while it seems a necessary protection (sometimes) against the idiot low level supervisors, I hate union politics on the local and especially National Level.

I realize I have a good paying job, but I also realize there would be a line around the block to work at half the pay. (Not me http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif)

Your Old Dog: Good points.

QSIMDO: The new Saturn VUE Redline has a Honda v-6, and GM has sold essentially rebadged Toyotas for years. For the Diesel truck guys, I'm told the Duramax is an Isuzu engine.

Everyone: It seems everyone has valid points, but they are only a small part of the big picture.

If these companies are so greedy, making so much money, INVEST IN THEM. Why not? It's tougher to put your money where your mouth is. You start to learn about risk.

The Unions push the view that a bunch of evil rich guys are constantly plotting against us, lining their pockets, slash and burn...etc., etc.

Come on. There are some real issues, and there will be some turmoil as the whole world starts to 'equalize' as regards wages, but there is also a lot of opportunity. You can gripe about it, or think about it and act.

-James

wierdscience
03-19-2005, 10:04 AM
Hahaha!You bought a Deere John http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Should have bought a Kubota,they are made here http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Look,it's up to YOU the consumer to do your research on what YOU are buying.Companies get away with stuff like that because people are too nice to them when the crap they bought falls apart.Go back to JD and raise holy hell.Oh,I do have to ask,is it a real Deere or one of the Lowe's/Walmart brand name frauds?

American quality,it was too good,that's why you STILL see 1941 Southbends and 14" Buffalo drill presses.The things were so well made the companies went broke because they didn't wear out.

As for Chebby,grandpa worked for all the big three,he said Chevy was nothing but a cheap copy of a Ford http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 03-19-2005).]

bob308
03-19-2005, 10:05 AM
right the unions are not to blame. when they go on strike for 15 an hour to bag in food stores. or the bus drivers want $22 an hour to set on their but and drive a bus. and a tool maker gets $14 if he is not union.
now for the good one a major motor cycle company needed laser fixtures made the union said they had to be made in a union shop. they had 12 made and they were crap would not work. so they had 12 more made at another union shop crap again. now we are building them at a lower cost and ours work.
yes the unions were needed at one time but now i think they have gone too far.

AZSORT
03-19-2005, 10:10 AM
I've spent some serious time in my life trying to figure out who is at the helm of world affairs, and all I can say is that whoever they are - they don't seem to have your average American interest's at heart. Seems to me that in an effort to raise up much of the third world they are screwing up the developed world. On the other hand, maybe we should have used out golden years to prepare for the long term like get energy independent and out of debt.

Greg

nheng
03-19-2005, 10:14 AM
At first, when you bought a made in China or Mexico, the product had a lower price.

Now, you're paying USA prices for crap made elsewhere with a name brand sticker slapped on, silk-screened or lithographed.

Crewchief: was your John Deere one of the consumer models? If so, it may simply be the prostitution of a good name. Built to a price ... low price if Wal-mart or its ilk are involved.

I can't even get my own management to build injection mold tooling in the US even though the price is do-able. The A-holes automatically go for low dollar and have no clue what is happening in this country http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

snowman
03-19-2005, 11:26 AM
You guys are all quite humorous to me.

You blame corporate greed, but for the most part, disregard consumer greed. The house I live in has three televisions for four people, all three televisions have DVD players. We have three computers. Four cars less than four years old.

My mother in law is always buying from a catalog called "LTD commodities" and shops at Walmart almost exclusively. There is no "explaining things" to her. I personally, haven't bought a thing made in China in two months...why? I haven't bought anything other than groceries in two months.

Greed is to blame...whether it's the union worker who thinks they *deserve* 25 dollars an hour plus amazing benefits for washing cars, the CEO who has a house for each season, or the guy bagging groceries at your local grocery store for 5 bucks an hour who *wants* all these things.

-Jacob

nheng
03-19-2005, 11:48 AM
My favorite Chinese import is fans. Out of season at the moment in these parts but on garbage days, you can see the Chinese fans lining the streets, over and over again. Floor models, table models, etc.

I still have a small GE fan that my wife had from her dad in my shop. Runs great after around 60 years or so with NO maintenance except two drops of oil every other year http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Greed? Yes, it's all caused by greed and it won't change until the playing field is leveled.

[This message has been edited by nheng (edited 03-19-2005).]

snowman
03-19-2005, 11:58 AM
Fans are fun.

I have a bunch of old brass finned fans that I use. Ya know, the ones that double as a vegetable chopper...just drop it into the spinning blades. A little polish and they look wonderful!

Had to replace the cords, but they work fine....

-Jacob

J Tiers
03-19-2005, 11:59 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by snowman:
I personally, haven't bought a thing made in China in two months...why? I haven't bought anything other than groceries in two months.


-Jacob</font>

HAH! NOT SO FAST!

Check your labels. I saw some popcorn.....label said "Packaged in china", I forget the origin of the corn, might have been china again.

dvideo
03-19-2005, 12:39 PM
It's gotten more complicated.....

I have a lot of respect for Union Guys. It can be one of the few organized groups left that sticks up to actually keep jobs here in the US.

It's not their fault that a family of 4's insurance - before deductables - is $1200 a month and that medical will soon be 20% of the economy. They aren't the ones jacking up taxes to pay government bloat on all levels. They did not jack up a $42K Condo to $600K in a Boston Suburb.

They, for the most part, just do things to make America better - and to be honest, they aren't getting that much for it. It's the government's job to keep organized crooks out. It's the company's job to define what is required to do.

Everyone can find fault in the Unions of today. Especially union memebers. But.... Just who else is out there doing anything postive in an effective way? I don't see much....

If Catherine Boo's numbers are right, and I think she is - then we are looking at 15 million US jobs moving out of the country in the next few years. Massive job pressure on what remains. That's the number. Who else is there to oppose such a trend? Do you know what a Hooverville is?

Who opposes government paid - ie tax paid - improvements to port facilities to allow more containers to come in the country? Is it rational to spend $500M on a container port improvement - to import another $5-15 Billion of goods? So we tax ourselves to put 100,000s of americans out of work?

My dad as a Union VP in the '30's - textile business. That business is collapsed and gone now. Here in Richardson-Plano, there were 100,000 more people in telecom business. That business is going away now. Notice a trend?

If you give flack to Unions - realize they are one of the "few men left standing" - and what are the altenatives? Some things need to be fixed, for sure. Just a good idea to look at the overall picture....

--jerry

nheng
03-19-2005, 12:50 PM
J. Tiers said "HAH! NOT SO FAST! Check your labels. I saw some popcorn.....label said "Packaged in china", I forget the origin of the corn, might have been china again"

And we're worried about Homeland Security when our frickin food supply is being moved offshore like everything else.

My daughter has, on several occasions, reached for Chinese made cosmetic products. NO WAY, I told her and offered to buy a US made version ($5 vs $1.49). Didn't take long to realize that it's gonna get expensive to support this country http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Of all the damned laws we have, we should have strict regulations on the sources of our food and where it is imported, strict monitoring, on site, of all those in the supply chain (and NO, I don't mean the FDA or Dept. of Agriculture).

It's a fantastic day out there and I'm a sucker for made in USA discussions. Have a great day all !! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

BillH
03-19-2005, 12:53 PM
The root of all the problems are Lawyers. Cost of living goes up because of them, higher cost of living, more pay is demanded. Now you have blue collars demanding white collar pay. Used to be that you had to go to college to get the big bucks. Hey, everything is supply and demand in todays world economy. You ask for too much, you will lose.
Look at Germany, 12 or 13% unemployment now? Thats what high taxes will do for you. Yeh, tax the big corporations? LOL, the workers and consumers will take up the losses there.
It all comes down to scum sucking lawyers, and higher cost of living.

ibewgypsie
03-19-2005, 12:58 PM
You guys that knock unions so hard and blame them for everything should read history some more. Safety was the number one factor promoting unions in the beginning.

Do you think the company you work for gives a crap if you go home blind or crippled? Just wait, Companies are/were forced to take care of the people who work for them. It's swinging the "other" way.

Right now in China you are seeing the same effect as the Pre-Union coal mines in USA.

What bothers me, the concept that the kids think the world "owes them a living" they just have to show up to get paid. You have to make it in this world by making your employer money. If you sit on your fat lazy duff and don't make him money, he don't need you.

FAT, Lazy Americans. Perhaps the Japanese were right when they said that. I see it more and more. Spoiled by easy living for many years.

Unions promote, A honest days pay for a honest days work. If you lay around, you should'nt be around. I have been on both kinds of jobs, the non-union shops get a fast job done, but just wait till you turn it on. HA. I have spent months making mis-wired crap work. Difference there? education and care put into the work. (craftsmanship)

I'm 47, soon to be 48 and can work about any kid into the ground. I brag on the ones who can keep up and try to get them promoted early. Some I'd like to bury and get them off the job, they couldn't keep a job at Mcdonalds till thier "uncle,brother,sister" got them the apprentice job.
There ain't nothing like hooking up "hot circuits" with a kid playing drums on the ladder you are standing on. Get shocked, they think it's funny.

snowman
03-19-2005, 01:01 PM
Jerry,

Pre-Note: Any time I refer to "union" in a derogatory tone, I am referring to the UAW.

If unions served their original purpose, I dont think many people would have problems with them.

Ya know, safe working conditions, a fair wage and working conditions, job security.

Now, what has it turned into these days? Guys getting paid 55K a year being machine jockeys, load unload at 30 bucks an hour plus OT. Guy at the Tier One gets paid 10 an hour to do the same job, if they are lucky. Is that a "fair wage"? Hell No!

Oh, then theres the thing about the UAW that I really hate. Look at any sign on a factory...GM logo and UAW logo's have to be the same size. It's in the freaking contract!?!?!

Then there's the inability to criticize any union worker without going through the "union".

Then there's the inability to fire any union worker without going through the union...even when they do **** that blatently breaks policy.

Now, dont get me wrong...I'm not getting down on the IBEW, or the pipefitters union, or the toolmakers union, teachers union, service employees union, etc...I'm talking about the UAW. It is ****.

My favorite UAW policy...At Ford, in order to test to become a skilled trade employee, you must start out on the line, then take the test...why? UAW policy. So...you can be the most skilled person in the world, but damnit, you are starting out as a machine jockey for *I think* at least six months.

Pissed off on a Saturday morning cause I was up sick all night.

-Jacob

Tinkerer
03-19-2005, 01:23 PM
Lawyers... Lobbyist... Politicians take your pick. The workaday Joe's and Jane's or getting getting squeezed by them all one way or another. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

Tim

Too_Many_Tools
03-19-2005, 02:19 PM
Good discussion.

In my opinion, the "problem" is the sum of the symptoms.

First take a look at history. When one remembers that after WII, we were the only significant industrial power still standing (which had geared up for wartime production). Remember that before the War we and the rest of the world were trying to survive the Great Depression. We were in the catbird seat and were able to supply the world's needs with little competition...and we got paid well for it.

Because of this, as a general population we acquired the BEST overall quality of life of any nation on the planet. Even today, the majority of the world's population does not have electricity, public utilities or even a telephone. Keep that in mind when you consider how far YOUR current quality of life could decline so THEIRS can rise.

As one moves into the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's one can see as the competition got stiffer, we in the United States slowly lost ground on almost every front.

As the world catches up in this game, we the United States are going to continue to see our overall quality of life decline. The simple fact is that the Earth can't support the human race at the level of consumption that we were living at. The reality is you will see most of the world's quality of lifestyle improve at the expense of those who are at the top of the food chain now....us. In particular, remember that the price of energy to the United States has been kept artifically low in respect to the rest of the world.

Meanwhile you have various groups (CEOs, lawyers, politicans, doctors, employers, etc.) who are going to do everything in their power to keep what they have and take advantage of the situation to get more. First and foremost, your government (Republican and Democrat alike) is working OT to promote this shift of economic power because they are being paid to do it and not because it is in "our best interests". The plain and simple plan is to produce anything as cheaply as possible and get the most that they can from the customer wih the most money...us. In our case, make it overseas and sell it in the USA to the comsumer who should know better. The saying of selling the sucker the rope to hang himself comes to mind.

In respect to US labor, I will point out one example. After 9/11, this country lost millions of jobs due to that incident. Instead of working to soften that blow and rebuild that lost asset in this country, this administration actively has encouraged companies to continue to offshoring millions of other jobs during wartime to countries that historically do not have our best interests at heart. If that had occurred after Pearl Harbor, it would have been considered a war crime. Today, the general population not only tolerates it but condones it. For every job that is lost results in additional lost tax revenue. This week it was announced that the United States is over two thirds of a trillion dollars in debt. That is money that you and I are responsible in paying since taxes on business is small compared to the individual income tax burden. Couple that with a record trade deficit that represents a continued bleeding of our economic strength and one wonders where the bottom is and how hard we will hit it.

One small detail that you may want to remember...by the end of this decade (less than 5 years), it is projected that we will be importing more agricultural products than we will export. In other words, we will not even be able to feed ourselves without help... and this was the country that fed the world.

I'll step off the soapbox for now but I can assure you that we all have a long way to fall before this is over.

TMT

[This message has been edited by Too_Many_Tools (edited 03-19-2005).]

peter nap
03-19-2005, 02:41 PM
I'm glad someone here finally said Big Corporations.

I'm the head of a small Corporation. The employees come first and many make more than I do. The reason is that they are the bread and butter of the company. We pride ourself on our service and products. When a customer complains, I listen.

Now the problem(S)...I have to blame most of it on the Government. I pay nearly $0.75 of every dollar in taxes of one kind or the other. I am bogged down in red tape and BS.

In our country (USA) the government puts so much pressure on the Auto manufacturers to plug their engines up with smog control sh&^, the engines won't run.

It would be so much easier for them to say...we want less pollution, use smaller engines and you don't have to add all that crap.

The lawyers ate litigation crazy and that raises the insurance rates.

The answer is simple...Hang the entire bunch (Politicians, lawyers, other people I don't like) and get on with business!

Rustybolt
03-19-2005, 03:20 PM
There's an old saying;
"Money goes where it is best treated."

The regulatory climate in the US has made it difficult for money to stick around.

Rusty's third law of economics. If the price of an otherwise abundant commodity is overinflated, look to government interference in the marketplace.

Stanko
03-19-2005, 04:03 PM
Im not a genius at this, but in the last 5 years we have seen the US$ go from NZ$.39 to NZ$ .74 dosent that mean you are paying nearly double for your imports. And you still do it. Eventualy this is going to really hurt.
We used to be able to build yachts and other high dollar/high labour input items for the US because our dollar was next to worthless (the Pacific Paso) that seems to have dried up.
Imports are cheap, fuel is still relativly cheap but everything seems to hang on the weak US $. If it recovered we would be screwed.
Isnt this just the fall of Rome on a bigger scale, a new top dog is on the way and there is very little to stop him. When the Euro becomes the main currency for world trade including oil, the downturn will become a slide. We look back in time and wonder what happened to the Aztecs and other brilliant civilisations. Maybe in a couple of thousand years we will look back and wonder how it could all go so wrong ,given the umpteen lessons from history.
As long as it lasts another 30 years Ill be ok. See short term planning.

snowman
03-19-2005, 04:19 PM
Stanko,

Your "thirty years" goal is about the same as mine.

I'm hoping for fifteen.

Unfortunately, both seem like a reach.

-Jacob

Joel
03-19-2005, 04:23 PM
I was going to type up a response how some of you are so very wrong simply because your ideas differ from my own (well researched or not, whatever), but as I am a typical American, I am too lazy to do so. Besides, I am busy (really I am), there is currently something on the TV to distract me from actual problems (so what if I have already seen the program 3 times), and which precludes me from doing actual work. Surely somebody else will make it all better FOR ME (but it won’t BE ME)!
Note: If you don’t make everything exactly the way I want it, I will incessantly bitch, offer NO solutions, and possibly sue, so hurry up!

Well, I must now be off to follow the path of least resistance, do what serves me best, and do what makes me the most money regardless of the consequences (I MUST HAVE more expensive, shiny crap to throw away when I see MORE expensive, shiny crap that I MUST HAVE).

Hey, just taking care of #1, you and YOUR problems essentially don’t exist to me…

snowman
03-19-2005, 04:51 PM
OOOH OOOOoooh...Joel, is it American Chopper? That show is AWESOME!

I'm feeling a little better now, so I'll try to type up something with a little more thought in it.

David hit the nail on the head for me. I make some things that are just ****, no craftsmanship, but they work. I dont mind, because I'm the only person that is ever going to use them. As soon as I have something that I am sending to someone else though, pride and craftsmanship take over.

January 1st, I technically started my business. I have been working nearly 60 hours a week between both jobs, and am making around 1400 a month (before taxes), total. Now...mind you...this is work your ass off til you standing hurts labor. It's not always going to be like this, but I know for probably the first year of trying to get this business off the ground, it will be. I am dumping all the money back into tools, equipment and materials.

Yes, I get bitter when people bitch that they are not getting life handed to them on a silver platter. Hell, I get bitter when my parents give my brother money (he's 22)...I've been paying my own way since I was 18, working at least one job, usually two all the time. When people think they should get something for free, I get pissed off and angry. If you aren't willing to work for it, you dont need it.

When I was in high school, I valued things by the number of cows I had to milk in order to purchase. I own about 5 cd's because of this. I still value things in the same way...all of a sudden, standing in the checkout lane at a store can give you an anxiety attack. Do I really need this? No...Will it really be that beneficial to my state of mind to have this? Probably not.

egpace
03-19-2005, 06:30 PM
An interesting developement -
Nissan (Japan) announced that it intends to build vans in the United States for export to China!

Economics are surely strange, evidently enough people are getting wealthy over in China to afford to pay U.S. wages for their vehicles.

Ed

ibewgypsie
03-19-2005, 06:33 PM
I worked for a Japanese parts contractor for Toyota.

Production enviroment, WAO was the normal speed. Second shift stayed till quota was met.
Treatment was real good to employees, You know kinda like they pamper race horses.

David

Your Old Dog
03-19-2005, 07:57 PM
Grant me a qualifier !

John Hurd & Jamscal: I'm past Presdent of NABET Local 25 in Buffalo, NY. (Broadcasters Union) I want business to succeed as our members depend on them. My first post was meant to exaggerate a point of how the liberals see life. By their viewpoint, my suggestion would have solved all our problems.

Bob38: If Unions only amount to 15% of workforce why do they get 99% of the blame. During the first lockout in the TV business we went on radio and defended $50K jobs like this, "is there anything wrong with the working stiff making enough money to put his kids thru school or should we all make minimum wage. We don't apologize for what we make, we earn it instead"

Snowman: Why defend jerks in the union? Because it's labor law. If you have a closed shop and a person pays dues to the Union AND there are grounds for his defense in the contract that both parties signed then we have no choice but to defend him. We face a lawsuit from him if we don't. Let me point out that normally we only defend jerks. Our good members rarely find themselves in trouble. I once defended an alchololic who was fired twice. We ended up winning the first arbitration and loosing the second one. What does the company do? They hired the jerk back for Summer Vacation Relief! God as my judge that is true and not exagerated in any way.

Too Many Tools: Nicely said. You sound like someone I'd like to go fishing with!

We little guys feed off the big'uns and it's in our best interest to keep the big'uns healthy. Don't get so worked up when the liberal media finds a tainted corporation and paints them all with the same brush. As someone so aptly pointed out here, "money goes where it's best treated" - so does the media. There are far more poor people than well off and hence the ratings (read money) are better served by beating up on big business and pandoring to the less willing to work hard to make a living.

I only got one beef with all Unions and that is their blind support of Democrats who have been at the reins for decades and delivered next to nothing to our prosperity or our pride. Well, now we got a generation "proud" of what they can con the system out of.

I recently moved, had to re-register to vote in another county and decided I don't want to be part of a party that eats their own during war time. I hope my departed Granddad and Father will understand, it ain't the same party they were in. Someone in there party once said words to the effect "Let me make it perfectly clear, America will stop at nothing to defend and garuentee liberty and freedom" He was our familys hero John Kennedy.

Seen some refereance to "fair". I don't believe in the concept where life is concerned. My 30 year old son is mentally handicapped. Want to talk about life and being fair? Talk to him. There ain't nothing fair about life, you cut your own quarter if you can or go without.

Sorry guys, I'm done and I'll be quiet.
Ray......

Too_Many_Tools
03-19-2005, 08:08 PM
ALL indications are that China is the next economy where the money will be made. What we are seeing now is a wholesale plundering of the wealth of the United States. When that economic base is gone (and the deficit and trade imbalance indicate it is leaving quickly), companies will simply move on to the next customer with cash.

When asked why he robbed banks, the bank robber said "Because that is where the money is", the same goes for companies when they want to separate the consumer from his money. China is where the growth is, Europe and the United States are mature and to a large part stagnent economies that are seeing little if any real growth. As Europe as seen, when the jobs leave they rarely return. I fully expect the United States to begin seeing unemployment rates that we have not seen for decades. The business activity you do see in the United States today is because of cheap interest rates. As the cost of raw materials and energy increase, you will see the cost of money rise and your costs will rise sharply. Does anyone remember the 70's and stagflation?

In my opinion, the biggest problem faced by the population is the debt that the average consumer carries. When you have incurred debt and have to pay it off with a reduced income (got a job yet?), it will break most of us. I consider it not a coincidence that the bankruptcy laws are being changed to make it much easier to seize your assets. When one considers that over half of all bankruptcies are due to unexpected medical bills, few of us and our families are immune to losing everything we have worked a lifetime for.

TMT

pete913
03-19-2005, 09:14 PM
First off, If you think taxes are too high in this country for anyone, I suggest you take a little european tour sometime, and you'll soon see that, quite truthfully , we in this country haven't even seen the beginning of high taxes, corporate, personal or otherwise. Taxes are not what's destroying our manufacturing base. I don't see europes manufacturing base eroding nearly as fast as ours, and they pay WAY higher taxes on everything than we do here. What is destroying it is the govt's stubborn adherance to free trade agreements that could just as well have been written by the Chinese in their entirety, because even if they had been , they could hardly have been more damaging to the industrial base of this country.
If you think that the US taxpayer and the US government OWES entities like GM, and Wal Mart tax breaks, and that giving these tax breaks to them will save one single American job, I think you need to start taking a serious look at both these companies track records over the last 10 yrs or so. I say give them two choices. Do business in this country first, and somewhere else second, or let 'em go to the red chinese govt for their tax breaks, cause I'm damn tired of them using tax breaks to send our jobs overseas. They have absolutely no loyalty to this country, its workers, or anything else except the bottom line, so excuse me if I don't cry my eyes out because they dont have enough tax breaks.
One more thing. John Deere has been outsourcing parts manufacture since the late 60's that I know of for sure, I can't believe this would be a surprise to anyone familiar with John Deere tractors, large or small.
[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 03-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 03-19-2005).]

BillH
03-19-2005, 09:19 PM
So you are saying we should be more like Europe? Look at Germany's 13% unemployment, or more for that matter, how stagnate any economy is in Europe, compared to ours.

pete913
03-19-2005, 09:38 PM
I'd settle for a stagnant economy instead of one thats being run into the ground by degrees with free trade agreements, yes. And as far as unemployment figures go, once, just once, I'd like to see washington admit the real figures, because it takes about 170,000 new jobs created every month in this country just to break even with demographics, which they ain't done, and ain't gonna do. Back in the last presidential campaign, I heard they'd created 1.9 million new jobs. Hello? is it just me and my calculator, or is this a net loss? And jobs doing what and replacing what types of lost jobs? It's like a guy I saw on tv from Michigan said " a year ago I was a machinist making $22 an hr, got downsized out of it, and now they "created" a new job for me. $6.50 an hr at Burger King". I do not intend to sit idly by with a burger in my mouth watching everything my 6 generations of family in this country worked for , fought and died for, squandered on the altar of free trade and " the new world order" because some clown in washington need a few buzzwords to get elected.

tattoomike68
03-19-2005, 10:57 PM
for some irony I find most parts I make new ones of are from spain,sweden,germany,,,,

I can make it today for $550 or you can wait 6 weeks and pay $1,550. you decide.

I realy belive it is not "where" it is made as much as it is "who"(on a personal level)

junk is made everywhere.

wierdscience
03-19-2005, 11:09 PM
Taxes in the US are too high,way too high.Why do people,especially liberals insist on taxing sucess and rewarding failure?
The average American worker has no concept of how much money he or she pays in taxes.The reason is they never see it.
Docsteve once said it best"inflation is a tool the government uses to cover up lies like social security"-absolute truth!
Why am I subject to a tax code and social welfare system I didn't vote for?Well I am fed up with it and refuse to pay not another thin dime.
I go past the food stamp office on the way to work in my 10 year old truck,drive right past a parking lot full of new cars with a sticker in the window at the stamp office,why?I am paying the f---ing notes on those cars! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif
We need a reset in this country,go back a 100 years,let them that work eat,the rest can starve.Rant mode off.

speedy
03-19-2005, 11:28 PM
All those Yankee dollars, and currency linked to the dollar, invested in the cheap labour market that is China and now I hear that the Chinese are thinking of aligning their currecy with the Euro. With the U.S dollar so low this sounds nasty.
Dogs eating dogs??

Ken ( not an economist )

wierdscience
03-19-2005, 11:40 PM
"The Union label........

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/f11union1.jpg

spope14
03-19-2005, 11:45 PM
A few things to add.

First, if we were to "level the playing field" between China, mexico, Eurpoe, and the US, things might just be better. By this I mean, if we all were subject to the same environental laws, worker protection laws, general wage protection, liability regulations, and busines taxes, things would be a more fair trading base, and then the wheat could be better seperated from the chaff. China, Asia, Mexico, an many other countries have no environmental laws, no worker protection and wage laws. In the Us these type of things can cost any company from 35 to 43% of every dollar spent in the business. In europe, in some countries, even more. I do not favor dropping environmental laws or worker protection laws. Unions fought hard to get protection for the workers, quite rightly in terms of safety and such. Any questions? check out the History channel and their show on steel. Maybe a bit far in some cases, but rightfully so in the total gist of the idea. In the 60's we realized the danger of impacting our environment, and still live with the consequences and clean-up today. Witness the recent Hudson River dioxin situation, an in my home city, an old mfgr building we have to level and almost dig a crater to clean up the site of cyanides, and other real fun stuff like asbestos - Mostly elctoplating waste though, dumped onto the dirt floor of the building which was next to the old electroplate shop.

China still dumps anything anywhere. same with Mexico, an other Baltic and such countries. Anyone ever heard of the Air quality aound Russia and China?

Next thing. We all scream about corprate greed. Yes, it is so, but one must also look in the mirror. I must say this, because in the past five years, since Aug 2000 when the market took a big time dump from 10,900 to about 7000 Dow rating, we all went BS. We screamed -"Our retirement has gone to hell" Mine took a 40% loss in 10 days, only now about 10% ahead of the 2000 level. Bottom line here. many of us are into retirement accounts involving investment funds, 401K, 403B, stock portfollios, Mutual funds, an different managed funds (say Fidelity, Morgan Stanley, Putnam to name some). heck yes, we expect a return, and a fast and rather healthy one at that, and we want it to compound and make us comfortable. Big corporations also answer to stock holders, and the bigget stock holders are now a day not an individual who looks to line a pocket, but rather the investmen firms who must show instant gratification to its clients - the retiremen account holders like us, or they/we jump ship to another. Yes, they make money off of us, but we make money off of them as well - quite the relaionship. We expect 10% returns annually, an if not delivered, or a loss delivered, we scream to holy hell - I do, I know my pa in law from Cone Blanchard did, and I know my friends who used to work at Bryant Grinders do. The same goes with general company run retirement funds, state run retirement - all retirement is an investment in the market at some time in order to keep them alive. They don't just put the money in a 1.9% savings account...

So, how do these investors make the quick reurn? Invest where things are "hot, fast, and cheap", thus China's cheap to run companies (see above - level playing field), and the US companies that have gone out to alo deal with the cheaper companies overseas (se level playing field again). When that portfollio quarterly report comes in, do you think "are they saving American jobs", or do you think "hey, my 401K just went up another 6%, 12%, good deal!!!!!". Would you accept 2 to 3% to save jobs or have a level playing field for a few years, or do you absolutely expect the highest return? I would be happier to accept lower for a few years if I knew all were in the same boat, and a philosophy were in place to save jobs and level the field.

hate to throw water on it all, but this has to be said. As or one other thing, if the new Social scurity Rules come into being, there is a three year age gap that will not receive a damned thing out of it all, this after paying in for most of us for 25 to 30 years at 7.5% to 15% of our salaries. This o pay o the generation older than us, and to pave the way for the youth below us. The money needs to be ripped off somewhere. I fall right dead center in it all, so I will never be able to retire anyway due to this, and due to the losses over the past five years just now leveling out.

chief
03-19-2005, 11:56 PM
Back to the basic question, John Deere has been shipping plants overseas for quite sometime in an attempt to emulate Caterpillar.
The problem is that JD doesn't doesn't understand that CAT manufactures mining and construction equipment while they are a farm
implement manufacturer. John Deere dealer support is also a joke.

Mcruff
03-20-2005, 12:16 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Taxes are not what's destroying our manufacturing base. I don't see europes manufacturing base eroding nearly as fast as ours</font>

Then why does Germany have twice the unemployment the US has and then some.

lklb
03-20-2005, 05:40 AM
When the dollar finally tanks and our economy spirals into the crapper; will the Mexicans let us sneak over the border to do their menial labor?

lklb
03-20-2005, 08:00 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mcruff:
Then why does Germany have twice the unemployment the US has and then some.</font>

Excellent question!.... Simple. The same reason were DOOMED... Ronald Reagan.
The Bipolar world after WW2 allowed us to dominate the world stage for 50 years. With his simplistic view of the world, Reagan suceeded in destroying the Soviet Union. Berlin wall comes down- Germany inherits trashed,polluted ( like New England in the 1950's), welfare state. Germans ain't happy about it.That's why the Nazis are back.

For the "free" world our reason for dominance over them evaporated. Fifty years of bullying and cajoling lesser powers left a deep resentment for us .In point of fact- The rest of the world hates our f##king guts!

Strategic alliances in Europe, the pacific rim,and elsewhere are mounting to compete, no, to kick our ass.They will succeed. We don't make anything,we have outsourced everything. We just consume ,the world will suck us dry like a spider and be done with us.Once they shift their cash out of dollars, that is it.There is no fixing this...
All this could have been avoided if Reagan saw the obvious--That our only friend was our enemy-- With a wink and some help, we could have helped the Soviet Union survive--And insured our dominance over the free world for another fifty or one hundred years.
I beleive Ronald Reagan will be seen by history as the catalyst for the destruction of the United States as a major player on the world Stage........
.....But what do I know?

Iquithadenuff
03-20-2005, 08:28 AM
After reading both pages of this thread, never once saw , just how many chink "tools" you own,either so called "machine" tools, or, your everyday "precision" tools. I have been a journeyman tool maker for over 30 years, in my tool box you will NOT find anything but American made tools.

Rustybolt
03-20-2005, 08:55 AM
So. Getting back to first principles, I we ask ourselves what has changed in the US between 1945 and 2005 to cause this turn of events?

Sometime back in the late 70s or early eighties the American people decided that a clean environment, job safety and equality in the workplace were more important than jobs and the goods those jobs produced.
We shipped our pollution, dangerous jobs and descrimination overseas. Indsustry is reacting to a situation it finds intolerable. It did not create the situation.
Instead of blaming Cat. or Ford perhaps it is a good idea to blame trial lawyers and your congressperson.


Economics isn't about money. Economics is about human behavior.

ricksplace
03-20-2005, 09:06 AM
Interesting post (to say the least). I finally feel that I can contribute where I have some knowledge base. I have worked with Unions all my life (I'm 51). Negotiated for management, taught about unions, and been on strike too. I've worked with some union leaders with 40+ years of experience, and some newbies too. IMHO, blanket statements about unions are invalid, with the exception of IBEW's post. David, you're right, we can thank unions for benefits, health and safety and hours of work we have now. I have seen workplaces where there are never any strikes, very few grievances and no arbitrations. I met two guys at a workshop from Navistar who wanted to learn how to win more grievances at arbitration. At a plant of 2000 employees, they had 1000 grievances a year, and over a hundred arbitrations a year. Management was losing 90% of the arbitrations! See anything wrong with this picture?? Anyway, I'm rambling.. Companies get the unions they deserve. This told to me by a Steelworkers rep with 45 years of experience. I wish I knew half of what he's forgotten!
If you don't like what your union is doing, get in there and change things! I have a sign in my office for students, it is the word "whining" with a large red circle around it with a red line through the circle. NO WHINING. Don't like what is happening? Do something about it! Make it better. Make your own luck. There is excellence, mediocrity, and poor performance, and everything in between. I tell students to get involved, and make things better. If you can't, find another place to work where they treat you better. Some of my students say those are harsh words. I say to them, sometimes life is harsh, and the only one you can count on to make it better is you. I'd really like to say "grab life by the balls" but I'd probably get fired. I have to say, that is what drew me to this site. Most of you guys grab life by the balls and make the best of it. Not many whiners in this bunch. My kind of guys. Somebody should start a company, and only hire all you guys. We'd put those offshore companies out of business so fast they'd think they'd been nuked!

damphmann
03-20-2005, 09:51 AM
Gents,

This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in some time. I can't see the debate ending any time soon.

I'd like to offer a little lightheartedness to this otherwise serious topic:

My father-in-law often quips, "Pretty soon you'll look at a product's label and see the following description-- Made In China... by Mexicans."

Think about it!

bob308
03-20-2005, 09:54 AM
yes i agree with you the unions have gotten out of hand. there is no way to get ride of unproductive people if they have 5 years in. at 10 they seam to just come in and retire. i have seen that in the union i worked in. now i know of a company that the tool makers don't even know how to use a jig bore. and they can not get a hole in stright. but they have enough time in so they get the job.

pete913
03-20-2005, 10:20 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mcruff:
Then why does Germany have twice the unemployment the US has and then some.</font>
Umm maybe because the German government isn't using figures picked out of the air at fantasyland to prop up some huge lies about their miserable record of job creation like Dubya does? I reiterate, it takes in the neighborhood of 170,000 new jobs created every month to keep up with the demand and the demographics,(psst, thats a lot more than 1.9 million new jobs a year, and that was this administrations BEST year in that respect) and if your idea of a coherent job creation policy is replacing $22 an hour jobs with jobs paying minimum wage with no benefits, and using the govts fast dwindling influence around the world to "level the playing field" by making the American worker compete head to head wagewise with the third world, you have found your nirvana under this administration and its dreams of 'da new world order'. If our economy is so hot, please tell me why the dollar is so weak ( weakest its been in over 70 yrs right now) that even the international drug dealers have gone to the euro as a more stable means of exchange?


[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 03-20-2005).]

lklb
03-20-2005, 10:55 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pete913:

If our economy is so hot, please tell me why the dollar is so weak ( weakest its been in over 70 yrs right now) that even the international drug dealers have gone to the euro as a more stable means of exchange?


[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 03-20-2005).]</font>

You better believe that the smart money Wall Street types are already hedging their bets against the dollar,right there with the Drug Dealers.They already milked this cow!

wierdscience
03-20-2005, 10:57 AM
Pete,you still standing in the soup line? You have got to be kidding me,everywhere I look houses are being built,new cars all over the place,people still driving even thou gas is $2.00 a gallon.

I have said it before,if the economy is so bad,then why every Sunday are the stands full at football and baseball games? Why did 110,000 people show up for Daytona?Open your eyes and look around.

wierdscience
03-20-2005, 11:24 AM
As for Germany,thier social programs are dragging them down simple as that.Remember Eutopia is the only country to tax itself into prosperity,that's why it doesn't exist.
If the Germans thing they have it bad now,just wait until we close our bases there.
Also,mark my words,the EU is destine to fail.The nations of Europe have not gone more than 30 years without war in the last 2,000 years of thier history,why would they change now?

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 03-20-2005).]

mmount
03-20-2005, 02:06 PM
"Pete,you still standing in the soup line? You have got to be kidding me,everywhere I look houses are being built,new cars all over the place,people still driving even thou gas is $2.00 a gallon.
I have said it before,if the economy is so bad,then why every Sunday are the stands full at football and baseball games? Why did 110,000 people show up for Daytona?Open your eyes and look around. "

Can you say fake money, it's easy for people to spend money they don't really have. Do you know waht the average credit card debt is in this country? It's insane. And it only exist because the money is fake. The big 12 privately owned banks(fed reserve) can print money through the treasury any time they want, however they call it a loan( to the federal government) and expect us to pay interest on it(federal debt)with hard earned tax dollars. It would be like me loaning you $100,000 out of my inkjet printer(my cost about $5.00 depending on the denomination of the bills you want) and charging you interest on it, that you have to sweat and bleed for. It's fake when they print it. The only part that's not fake is when you have to pay it back(unless you also print your own money with nothing to back it up) Why do you think they are starting to change the bankruptcy laws, so they can come and take your property(which is not fake). And believe me it will come a time when these 12 banks decide it's time to foreclose and start reposesing the country. A huge part of the country is already owned by foreign interst and it will only get worse when they come to collect thier loans. Now is the time to start getting out of debt as fast as you can. Because as soon as our false economy starts it's undeniable decline and we can no longer absorb the worlds garbage consumable products we will be useless other than our land and what's left of our natural resources. Then it's repo time. And many middle class folks who feel they've done ok providing for thier later years(but don't own thier house yet) will be homeless.

mmount
03-20-2005, 02:51 PM
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6 a.m. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA).

After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.

At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.....AMERICA.....

wierdscience
03-20-2005, 03:18 PM
Please don't confuse personal debt with the national debt,otherwise you start sounding like a Deaniac.
Yes the credit card debt is a problem,but it is completely defferent from the nat'l debt.Persoanl debt is the result of living in a instant gratifcation get rich quick society.
The nat'l debt is the result of the government spending more than it takes in,howmuch more is anybodies guess because the debt number at any one time is based on PROJECTED revenue and not real dollars.
I support Bush on most things but the trillion dollar medicade add on was wrong.Social programs are something the government simply should not be involved in.
Social security will be the straw that broke the camel's back.
Social programs are the devil's handiwork built on the good intentions of well meaning indviduals.Every time we add one on we wreck society as a whole.Why don't more people save for retirement.because the government will do it for them.Why do they choose to remain in poverty,because the government gives them the means to do so.Poverty was the single greatest incentive to gaining wealth,now welfare payments are the incentive to stay poor.It's like treating alcholism with whiskey.

bob308
03-20-2005, 04:35 PM
the only jobs the goverment creates is goverment jobs. and that is more people on the dole in unions living off of our taxes.

nheng
03-20-2005, 05:08 PM
Just came back from Wal-mart with 8 bags of stuff, mostly bath and cleaning products good for 6 months. I asked my wife why we are doing this (in light of Wal-mart's treatment of American manufacturing) and she reminded me that it leaves more money in our pockets.

We have made a pact though and it is probably a fair compromise ... we only buy products that are clearly labeled made in USA.

Would you believe that we couldn't find any Bandaid brand bandaids (Johnson & Johnson) made in USA http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif The Bandaids were all made in either China or Mexico !! A quick search turned up US made (by 3M) ones.

Wal-marts home/hardware aisles are lined with made in China crap. Why can't they stock American fasteners, packaged and sold at only a slightly higher price? American consumers are clueless, our children are taught at the college level by those who would sell this country for a plug nickel, and unfortunately, it is here that our future lies http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

I hope that long before I retire, revolutionary thinkers (and do-ers) revitalize this country. Cell phones, blackberries, digital entertainment products and all of our hi-tech crap, ultimately ALL made in Asia regardless of where it is designed, isn't going to help us one bit. Even their design is moving to Asia, rapidly. I've seen some good engineering support staff (from some large semi houses) moving to China for multi-year stints. Guess who they support ... design engineering. It won't be long before we have nothing left to build.

Wake up America.

Too_Many_Tools
03-20-2005, 05:53 PM
"Please don't confuse personal debt with the national debt,otherwise you start sounding like a Deaniac.
Yes the credit card debt is a problem,but it is completely defferent from the nat'l debt.Persoanl debt is the result of living in a instant gratifcation get rich quick society."

Yes it is different debt BUT make no mistake, the same people are responsible for paying it off...you and me.

This is not about being a Republican or a Democrat...it is about this country paying its bills now without mortgaging the future of our children's children.

"Wal-marts home/hardware aisles are lined with made in China crap. Why can't they stock American fasteners, packaged and sold at only a slightly higher price? "

Mainly because the American version of the product does not exist anymore compliments of a government (Republican and Democratic) that is being brought off by special interests groups...and we as voters are letting it happen.

Make no mistake of it, there is an economic war being fought RIGHT NOW and the United States is LOSING at this time. When any of us spend money on a product that is offshored, WE are part of the problem. While you likely do not care about the other guy losing his economic livlihood, you will care when someone you care about does. While you may have a job today, there is a strong likelihood that your children may not and certainly will not have as good a quality of life that you have now. As a parent, that bothers the heck out of me and it should of any parent that cares about their offspring's future.

Consider this example... if a friend of your child would steal their identity and run up large debts to where your child's credit was ruined and that your child was liable for this debt, what would you think of this person that has just ruined your child's economic future?

Well, the running up of the national debt by this generation is doing the same thing to the next generation...their children.

TMT

crewchief
03-20-2005, 06:40 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:
Hahaha!You bought a Deere John http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Should have bought a Kubota,they are made here http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Look,it's up to YOU the consumer to do your research on what YOU are buying.Companies get away with stuff like that because people are too nice to them when the crap they bought falls apart.Go back to JD and raise holy hell.Oh,I do have to ask,is it a real Deere or one of the Lowe's/Walmart brand name frauds?

American quality,it was too good,that's why you STILL see 1941 Southbends and 14" Buffalo drill presses.The things were so well made the companies went broke because they didn't wear out.

As for Chebby,grandpa worked for all the big three,he said Chevy was nothing but a cheap copy of a Ford http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 03-19-2005).]</font>
weird its a genuine john deere bought from a john deere dealer,i bought the brand name.i paid the premium price ,i thought i was buying the best,i feel cheated .i hate russian crap!!cc

crewchief
03-20-2005, 06:58 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nheng:
Just came back from Wal-mart with 8 bags of stuff, mostly bath and cleaning products good for 6 months. I asked my wife why we are doing this (in light of Wal-mart's treatment of American manufacturing) and she reminded me that it leaves more money in our pockets.

We have made a pact though and it is probably a fair compromise ... we only buy products that are clearly labeled made in USA.

Would you believe that we couldn't find any Bandaid brand bandaids (Johnson & Johnson) made in USA http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif The Bandaids were all made in either China or Mexico !! A quick search turned up US made (by 3M) ones.

Wal-marts home/hardware aisles are lined with made in China crap. Why can't they stock American fasteners, packaged and sold at only a slightly higher price? American consumers are clueless, our children are taught at the college level by those who would sell this country for a plug nickel, and unfortunately, it is here that our future lies http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

I hope that long before I retire, revolutionary thinkers (and do-ers) revitalize this country. Cell phones, blackberries, digital entertainment products and all of our hi-tech crap, ultimately ALL made in Asia regardless of where it is designed, isn't going to help us one bit. Even their design is moving to Asia, rapidly. I've seen some good engineering support staff (from some large semi houses) moving to China for multi-year stints. Guess who they support ... design engineering. It won't be long before we have nothing left to build.

Wake up America.

</font>nheng ,clearly marked "made in america",doesent mean its all made in america!as i found out.cc

crewchief
03-20-2005, 07:07 PM
if the dealer could have told me yes its a great american machine ,but with bearings made in the gulag i could made an informed
decision,but you dont get to pull the thing apart before you buy it,how can any consumer
know what there buying ,its called trust eg "brand name" thats why we pay the premium.
cc

nheng
03-20-2005, 07:09 PM
Crewchief, Don't know if your model is in here but check out the 5th post in this thread:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//Forum1/HTML/007000.html

crewchief
03-20-2005, 07:38 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nheng:
Crewchief, Don't know if your model is in here but check out the 5th post in this thread:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//Forum1/HTML/007000.html

</font>
its all so depressing,are children will have no future if nothing is done to stop this crap,the world seems to be run by shiny arse clerks, accountants,and lawers cc

mmount
03-20-2005, 07:42 PM
"Please don't confuse personal debt with the national debt"

The credit all comes from the same place. It just passes through more hands to get to private citizens. The federal reserve loans all the money, whether it the government or the banks that issue credit cards. And it's all fake money that they pay pennys on the dollar for, only to expect to be paid back at full face value plus interest. And if they loaned it to the government that means me and you. You know that big chunk of your paycheck that you never see, that goes toward the interest on a loan that can never be paid off and we never needed in the first place.

"Yes the credit card debt is a problem,but it is completely defferent from the nat'l debt.Persoanl debt is the result of living in a instant gratifcation get rich quick society.
The nat'l debt is the result of the government spending more than it takes in,howmuch more is anybodies guess because the debt number at any one time is based on PROJECTED revenue and not real dollars."

They are both products of no vision of the future and instant gratification. Do you realy think the government is wise with the money it steals from you? If you were a private lender using your own money would you loan any of it to the government?

lklb
03-20-2005, 07:45 PM
Sooner or later everybody's gonna know---

---It ain't The American Century anymore.

Damn, I picked a bad century to quit drinking!!

Peter S
03-20-2005, 07:50 PM
crewchief,
So you found a Russian bearing in a John Deere....how about we come and visit your house and workshop - would we find every piece of clothing, tool, machinery etc made in USA? Or did you at times use your freedom to choose a product made in another country?

You seem to be living in a dream world.

Business today is worldwide, just like this News Group. There are posters here from all over the world, who possibly like me, get tired of this anti-foreign bleating. Open your eyes, travel a bit, find out about the world...oh, and when you buy a product, do a bit more research first.

ps, The Russians make some very nice machine tools - I have used a Russian surface grinder for many trouble free years - very good quality.

My guess is that your bearing problem lies not with the bearing manufacturer, but with the JD mower designer (American? surely not!) who made a bad design in the first place.

crewchief
03-20-2005, 08:10 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Peter S:
crewchief,
So you found a Russian bearing in a John Deere....how about we come and visit your house and workshop - would we find every piece of clothing, tool, machinery etc made in USA? Or did you at times use your freedom to choose a product made in another country?

You seem to be living in a dream world.

Business today is worldwide, just like this News Group. There are posters here from all over the world, who possibly like me, get tired of this anti-foreign bleating. Open your eyes, travel a bit, find out about the world...oh, and when you buy a product, do a bit more research first.

ps, The Russians make some very nice machine tools - I have used a Russian surface grinder for many trouble free years - very good quality.

My guess is that your bearing problem lies not with the bearing manufacturer, but with the JD mower designer (American? surely not!) who made a bad design in the first place. </font>for starters i dont live in the usa,i could have bought a cheaper brand ,i chose the more expensive!i dont care if your tired of anti foreign bleating.you sound like a john deere dealer,
or you just plain stupid,you'v missed the point...........oh yes i have traveled the world many times cc

jkilroy
03-20-2005, 09:36 PM
Greed, simple greed, at all levels of our society, has been the downfall of our great country. Thats right, HAS BEEN, done, finished, too damn late. No coming back from were we are. Hope everyone enjoys the few years of economic "top of the heap" we have left cause after that its HAS BEEN status for us.

nheng
03-20-2005, 10:36 PM
We recently had a GE Profile clothes washer fail after 4+ years as the lower bearing in the transmission seized. Normally this is the death knell for a machine as the transmission is around $160 and labor to match. Pulled the transmission out, determined to save some bucks for machine stuff by fixing it myself. I didn't have the facilities to get the bearing out and replace it but could at least see "Made in China" on the rim of the bearing. This didn't sit too well. Most consumers would be buying another $400 machine because of a cheap crap component. Hearing about some problems with this tranni (big surprise), I called GE and after a pleasant conversation and mild begging, they sold me a transmission at their cost. If the new f$%#$%^ bearing is also made in China, I may get another 4 years out of it. Next time I'll be ready to replace that bearing (a standard 64xx or 64xxx series part, BTW).

wierdscience
03-21-2005, 12:48 AM
ROTFLMAO!!! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Not one damn thing will you find on the shelves anywhere in the US that is 100% American made period.

All you guys knocking imports are bitching now that the horse is out of the barn and it's too late.

Fine,go out and support American industry,pay $12,000 for a new Southbend,or $11,000 for a new Bridgeport and quit bitching!

You want a good mower,plunk down $8500 and get a Yazoo,Xmark or Dixie,it will still have Chinese componets.

Of course this is a machining board and you could build your own like Ken did,but who wants to get thier hands dirty anymore?


Toyota,Nissan,Honda,in other words buy American http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

DaveK
03-21-2005, 01:25 AM
People seem to have forgotten how crappy American cars built from the mid 70's to mid 80's were, these had 100% US made parts! Remember Lee Iacocca went to Congress trying to restrict Japanese imports, while he was buying cars from Mitsubishi and rebatched them as Dodge Colts, Challengers and RAMs?

Too_Many_Tools
03-21-2005, 01:46 AM
It is obvious to me and others that companies take great pain to hide foreign content and production in their products.

Wanna guess why?

Because you the consumer might not buy it.

The Congress is stalling again for another couple of years a requirement to label where your food comes from.

Again, wanna guess why?

Yep, same reason.

Yeah, I guess good environmental and sanitary conditions aren't important.

Remember that the next time you hear of people getting food poisoned from imported vegetables raised in human feces. It happens all the time when you have produce raised in a country where the public santitation is lax.

Ever consider where that beer, soft drink or bottled water, canned vegatables/fruit you just consumed was processed at and what do you think their local water quality might be?

Ever stop to consider how many house fires are caused by imported electical devices that "meet" the "Chinese" UL testing requirements.

Ever wonder what the metallugical quality of that bearing in the front wheel of the van that your family drives down the road in is like?

I think you get my point...quality does matter...and sometimes that difference is a life and death difference.

The voter and the consumer still have the ultimate vote as to what is sold in this country. If you won't buy it because of foreign content, you can bet that factor will change once the company doesn't meet quarterly projections.

The problem is that the consumer/voter will sell their soul for a few cents off the price next door. When you have uninformed or ignorant consumers or voters, those who play politics take advantage of the situation.

And for what it is worth, I seldom buy the cheapest item because it is seldom the best value for my money. I do look for and reward companies that produce good quality goods in this country.

TMT

mrennie
03-21-2005, 01:54 PM
As a Canadian, I've always been quite intrigued by the negativity Americans express about things not being "American". Increasingly it is becoming a misnomer with global manufacturing.

Consider if you will that a very large portion of the vehicles bought in the US are actually made in Canada, but I never hear comments against buying "Canadian crap"........is that because you feel it's "close enough" to the US to count as "American" or because it was designed in the US?? The idea that Americans have a monopoly on performing quality work or producing quality materials is bogus....as long as people are trained and held to a standard, and the raw materials and manufacturing processes are sound and have integrity, there is no reason why any country can't produce labour or goods that rival any other countries labour or goods. For example, the #1 manufacturer of replacement gears for a Muncie 4 speed is in Italy, not the US. Why? I have no idea, other than to guess they can make the parts at a price that is appropriate for the quality and what the market wants to pay.

I remember last year people were upset about the new 2004 GTO being build in Australia by Holden, a US subsidiary. People were mad that the F body (Firebird/Camaro) was being cancelled due to poor sales, and the replacement (GTO) was an import. The Firebird/Camaro was one of the last US musclecars, how could GM cancel it and replace it with an import??? Reality was, though, that the F bodies were actually built in Quebec, Canada, and had been for many years.

Like Americans, most Canadians I know would prefer to buy items made in Canada, afterall we want to support our own manufacturing too, but if the item you want is only available made somewhere else, well, what else can you do but buy it? (As an aside, if the item is not "Made in Canada", but is made in the US, we have no problem buying it. Do you feel the same about our stuff??)

Not every country could or should be completely self sufficent when it comes to production of goods and machinery. Minerals/raw materials are not distributed equally around the globe, and not every country has the same % of the population trained and educated for the same types of jobs. The boom in China is bringing us all cheaply made goods at lower prices that allow us to either spend less or buy more....my sense is we are choosing to buy more.

Does it not make sense that the various economies of the world go through cycles, as each become mature and change from a manufactuing based economy to some other type?


Just my perpsective....

nheng
03-21-2005, 02:48 PM
It's about quality and about maintaining US jobs. It's not about rejection of quality products from other countries.

Many look at where we are heading and the way corporate America "thinks" and it is quite frightening.

The most important question is: What are we going to do next ??

It matters very little what the next great thing is that is developed in this country. As soon as there is reasonable market demand, you can rest assured that the production of the product will go somewhere cheaper. The entire free manufacturing world is feeling the pressure of Chinese labor rates.

So, do we just become a design house? Do we become the breadbasket to the world? Do we re-open our steel mills to fill the world's needs? Do we become the medical leaders of the world, producing advanced pharmaceuticals that no one else can?

Don't know what the answer is but I'm sure that in the years to come, we'll have lots of time to think about it.

added - I'm pretty happy with Canadian products, even food products, since living in the Northeast, Canadian distribution of some products is frequently closer than US.

[This message has been edited by nheng (edited 03-21-2005).]

debequem
03-21-2005, 03:14 PM
Good point, BillH!!!

Yes, we have lower taxes, but they still choke us to some extent.

As for the lawyers, my plan was to send them to Iraq instead of the US soldiers. I figgure one lawyer is more fearfull than 100 soldiers. Besides, why would the enemy blow up a lawyer? Do that and you will get sued here and the here-after too! ;-)

Marv

jamscal
03-21-2005, 03:21 PM
Along the way there has been talk of a 'level playing field' where other countries should have to have the same enviromental and labor laws as our country, forgetting that our American Powerhouse was built mainly without those laws...They slowly were added as a need was seen, and most of them not until the 70's when a bunch of our rivers and skies were past being very polluted.

The point is don't expect nacent Mexican and Chinese industry to immediately comply when it took us 70 years to do the same thing.

Also, someone was also right, weirdscience, I think, when he said the horse is already out of the barn. There are many Chinese products or components of products in your house RIGHT NOW.

Invest in companies that are investing in China. Maybe as a stockholder you can effect change. More likely, though, you'll have a successful portfolio.

-James

jimfun
03-21-2005, 07:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob308:
right the unions are not to blame. when they go on strike for 15 an hour to bag in food stores. or the bus drivers want $22 an hour to set on their but and drive a bus. and a tool maker gets $14 if he is not union.
now for the good one a major motor cycle company needed laser fixtures made the union said they had to be made in a union shop. they had 12 made and they were crap would not work. so they had 12 more made at another union shop crap again. now we are building them at a lower cost and ours work.
yes the unions were needed at one time but now i think they have gone too far.</font>

Guess you've never been fired form a non-union company because your boss has it in for you. It don't matter that he has absoultly no reason to fire you..he just don't like you. Well guess what...."your fired!" No recourse at all. Your out on your ass your bills ain't gettin paid your family's not eating tonight. Don't think it can happen? Well it can. I know it can.

KENZ
03-21-2005, 07:35 PM
I hate buying stuff that is made in China and else where for that matter. I try as much as possible to look at the labels and find if it is made in the US before I buy it. Finding 'Made in USA' is almost as difficult as buying groceries that don't have any preservatives in them.

On to my piece to add to this. I got a woodworking catalog in the mail today. On the inside cover it tells a story about thier house brand of machinery and how and how well its made. There are also pictures to accompany the story. What is truly sad is that the pictures gave me a nice warm feeling inside and words just cushed it.

Pictures- Americans designing, manufacturing shows an American in front of a CNC machining center, Americans testing the machines and finally American woodworkers using them.

After getting to the 4th paragraph the story turns to the east. Only the design and plans are created in the USA. Designs are then sent to Chopstick Town where all the manufacturing/assembly takes place. In state of the art facilities mind you.

So I guess not only is labor cheaper but so are all the operating costs?????!!! And then to ship it all over here.

Something just doesn't add up. I think that companies are under estimating what could be manufactured here and still give it a fair price, especially if it is truly a quality product.

Ken

caddy
03-21-2005, 08:09 PM
Very interesting reading guys. All of you bring up good points. Instead of a rant I would just like to throw into the mix one item that worries me a good deal:
We know where this is headed, but what will be the end result for our society? If we become a nation that builds nothing then what the hell is going to happen when we can no longer afford to buy anything even IF we have a job?

snowman
03-21-2005, 08:10 PM
When my girlfriend's boss went in to business, she was paying 99 dollars per employee for health insurance.

She is now paying over 300 per employee. This is in five years time.

-Jacob

andy_b
03-21-2005, 10:10 PM
mrennie,

just a comment on your observation that Americans don't seem too upset about the "Made In Canada" label. i don't mind buying Canadian goods, and if i can't find the "Made In USA" label, my next check is for the "Made In Canada" label. i feel Canadian companies have to go through about the same amount of "red tape" bullcrap as US companies. also, most Canadian workers have a similar standard of living as US workers and can afford to buy a product made in the US. unlike mexico where the employees make $1 a week and raw sewage flows through the streets. i really doubt many mexican workers are buying any of those new cars they are building down there for the US market. i have no problem supporting a foreign economy as long as the workers in that economy can afford products manufactured in the US.

andy b.

wierdscience
03-21-2005, 10:19 PM
Okay,now that we have come back around,lets talk about the original topic.A Russian made bearing in a supposedly American made machine.

I have customers to this day who insist on American made bal bearings.The company most often mentioned is SKF.Well what they don't know is SKF buys and mfgs bearings from all over the world and packs them in little pretty boxes and charges a premium for them.Is this anything new,no,to the best of my knowledge they have always done this.
Quite frankly we didn't even mgf quality ball bearing in this country until WWII made it happen.
Another example,ever see a Fordson tractor?Old steel wheel unit with the oval gas tank?A customer of mine pulled up infront of the shop with one on his trailer.I walked up an looked it over then something caught my eye,Japanese all over the unit.I asked him what the deal was and he said that it was a unit mfg in Japan under license from Ford and this was in 1935.

Why does this matter?The point is we in the US have always had foriegn products on the shelves since BEFORE our beginings.The buy USA habit first originated during WWII when many,but not all products had to be made here.

In the end all things will level out,water always seeks it's lowest level.The Chinese will follow in the wake of the Taiwanese,Koreans and Japanese.50 Years ago the Japanese built crap,now they are among the best in the world.Do you think there are many Japanese that will work for $3.00 a day these days?The same will happen with China provided none of the comms get a wild hair and attack Taiwan or Korea.

Now for the union subject.The strikes in the early days parcipitated change at a faster rate,but they were not entirely responsible for todays labor standards.Mobility of the American worker is what had the greatest effect in exacting change.My grandfather worked for Ford,GM and Chrysler,he was working at Ford when the incedent pictured in the photo I posted happened.He told me the supposed"poor conditons"did not exist at the River Rouge plant at that time nor before.Ford was continualy moderizing thier facilities and improving things for the workers.Maybe the smaller companies had problems,but not Ford.
We should look to the business and social model provided to us by Hong Kong before the coms took over.It was the truest example of the way things used to be here before socialist ideology took root in this country.
It the begining a man could go in business here by setting up shop and hanging his shingle out front.He suceeded or failed based on his product,service and ingenuity.Was the government up his nose wanting paper after paper,tax after tax? No.
Now we have the working conditions,what would a worker do if his job sucked?Go look for another one!The ideal situation for labor is when companies have to compete for workers by offering better conditions and incentives.
The example I mentioned of Hong Kong is a picture of America that was.It started out as a slum,high unemployment and low wages,but just 50 years later was only a few points behind wages in the US.How did it happen?They incouraged business instead of oppressing it,thy made it easy for a person to start a business(remember the guy hanging his shingle?)the paperwork and taxes where kept simple(here there are mountains of paper and taxes as far as the eye can see).

Bottom line,if you want to turn things around in this country the first thing that must be done is to repeal the last 50 years of law and start over fresh.
#1 Abolish the tax code.Revert to the system prescribed by the constituion,excise and tarriffs only,no income or property tax.
#2Repeal the enviromental laws and base any new ones on REAL research not bogus data.
#3 Repeal affirmative action,these are no longer needed,a student or employee should be judged by performance rather than race or gender period,do not allow a race or gender check box on an application.
#4 Limit the power of trial lawyers by making liability and malpractice claims criminal and not civil trials,there is no need for people to get rich in order for justice to be served.
#5 Eliminate intrest fluctuations,fix the intrest rates at a set level permanantly,10% for loans,3% for savings.
#6 Make open shop laws federal and blanket to keep the unions honest.
#7 Take control of all pension funds away from the union leadership,they have proven themselves to be crooks time and time again.
#8 Put crackpot fedral judges who ignore the constitution by writing law in jail.

snowman
03-21-2005, 10:34 PM
Weird...

Was that meant to be funny?

It'd be great...but it'd never happen.

-Jacob

wierdscience
03-21-2005, 10:49 PM
Well a man can dream can't he? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Mcostello
03-21-2005, 11:24 PM
Hey MRENNIE----- now that you mention it, I think that I have never got a bad deal from a product made in Canada. AM I lucky or overdue?Really would like to know as I "need" a few things that I could wait on if bad luck is coming.

CCWKen
03-21-2005, 11:33 PM
It's been a global economy since before the gas crunch of the 70's. Time to get used to it guys. There's still quality machines made in the US. The problem is that only the government can afford them.

Who of you want to pay $3,000 for a standard 19" color TV? That's what it would cost if the US made them. Who of you would pay $150,000 for an all US made Chevrolet? There's a lot of crying about import products and in the same breath, "I only make $35/hr" or "I charge $85/hr for my machining".

Americans have grown lazy and expect the best. If a company can't maintain at least a 10% growth per year, they're history. A 30% growth is the standard by which the market and shareholders judge a company. When 70% of a company's overhead is labor, it's easy to see where the most efficient cost cutting process can happen.

Multi-car, multi-home families are the norm these days. Production equipment in a home shop? $40,000 street rods driven a few times a year? $60,000 daily drivers? $5,000 home theaters? $750,000 home on 20+ acres of prime real estate? Not one owner will say that he doesn't "deserve it".

The greed goes far deeper than a corporation's lust for profit.

wierdscience
03-21-2005, 11:45 PM
Excellent point Ken,we also should remember that most corporations are owned by stockholders (you,me and quite a few people overseas)

nheng
03-22-2005, 12:13 AM
Wierd: Are you running for office 'cause you just got my vote http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Joel
03-22-2005, 12:29 AM
I agree Ken.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CCWKen:
Not one owner will say that he doesn't "deserve it".</font>

I sure don't deserve it, but I know exactly what you mean. I have a very comfortable life and plenty of people work harder than me and have a lot less. Go figure.

nheng, weirdscience is Jessie Ventura's screen name.

Rich Carlstedt
03-22-2005, 12:47 AM
To add to the pot .
Look at History guys !
England led the world into the "Industrial Revolution" and lost it to the USA around 1900.
Why.
1 Overtaxing Production
2 Costly energy
3 Restriction of Ideas ( court battles !)
4 Price of Labor

We had it, but now
Tax, Tax, Tax.
We no longer have cheap energy, the Envirionmentists have stopped all drilling, all refinery construction. scared the bejeebees out of the public for nuclear power, and only preach restraint.
Lawyers have sued anything that moves, and we tolerate "labor" that does not work.
Case in point...GM employees layed off get 95 % of wages..what bull !

Just look at the Foundry Business !
Had a lot of them 30 years ago....and they didn't disappear due to "Outsourcing"
Wake up people..we are killing the goose with misguided intenions

wierdscience
03-22-2005, 08:29 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joel:
I agree Ken.


nheng, weirdscience is Jessie Ventura's screen name. </font>

Well your on to me Joel,haha...first Minisodaa then the rest of the world http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

BillH
03-22-2005, 01:00 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jimfun:
Guess you've never been fired form a non-union company because your boss has it in for you. It don't matter that he has absoultly no reason to fire you..he just don't like you. Well guess what...."your fired!" No recourse at all. Your out on your ass your bills ain't gettin paid your family's not eating tonight. Don't think it can happen? Well it can. I know it can.</font>


His company, his right. Put yourself in his shoes, wouldn't you fire someone you couldnt get along with? I would.

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 03-22-2005).]

ibewgypsie
03-22-2005, 01:29 PM
Forget about all "these" minor problems.
What about Micheal Jackson, the poor misunderstood child. I mean wouldn't you want your kids to go stay at a "sleepover" with him?

He does look normal don't he? Don't you trust him? That is your right? If you don't want to.

(poking a point) Everyone has the right to be heard. Except in Non-union jobs, then you have the right to leave, no recourse, no unemployment, no voice.

On the "other side" you have no rights on a union job other than the ones the negociators bargained for. You signed them all away. If they make a "special" contract you have to work forced overtime, work holidays for straight pay, give up your right to councilling by a steward on the job. If the Bull steward makes a special agreement, ie: the company purchases him a new truck or vacation? then you get to suffer through a job, or leave. Life sucks then.

Stewards, the bargaining agent at the plant level? well they are usually someone who the company fattens up with privilidges to the point where they won't do anything to upset thier personal apple cart.

There is not Perfect situation, as long as people work for other people there will be problems in communication and working things out, UNIONS give you a leg to stand on. Kinda like hiring a attorney to do your talking. Not perfect, but it has it's place.

When the roofs were falling in on coal miners, they figured that out. Company was not going to spend a nickel on saftey. No need to, people waiting to go to work to replace the crushed ones.

Life, Unions, are what you make of them. Sit on your duff and complain, or make it in this world the best you can. Ie: work for a living.

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 03-22-2005).]

IOWOLF
03-22-2005, 01:43 PM
I had to make it an even 100

wierdscience
03-22-2005, 07:54 PM
"Guess you've never been fired form a non-union company because your boss has it in for you. It don't matter that he has absoultly no reason to fire you..he just don't like you. Well guess what...."your fired!" No recourse at all. Your out on your ass your bills ain't gettin paid your family's not eating tonight. Don't think it can happen? Well it can. I know it can."


Well I have had the opposite.You didn't get any work unless you were the stewards brother in law. Fair? I don't think so.

LG
03-22-2005, 08:23 PM
I live in Australia and have been watching this forum with interest as we have had the same debate here for years. Unlike most country’s we have a free trade policy which means any country can dump crap on us and we can’t send any thing back.

Australia has been trying to negotiate a trade agreement with the U.S. since 1927 and has finally this year got a slightly better deal. U.S. farmers can dump anything on us but they have 18 years to get it together before any tariffs on Australian produce will be reduced.

U.S. auto workers need not worry to much either Chrysler has reintroduced itself on to the Australian market, so far Chrysler's imported vehicle sales here far out number the pitiful handful of Holden GTO’s exported to the U.S.

There is no longer any farm machinery manufactures in Australia a place where a lot of the machinery was originally invented. Most is now imported from the U.S. millions of Dollars worth every year.

The U.S. Gov said that Australia is their number 1 friend but think nothing of sometimes heavily subsidising grossly inefficient U.S. farmers to undercut us in our traditional markets. This is devastating to Australia’s farm economy and must have a flow on effect to U.S. factory workers.

[This message has been edited by LG (edited 03-23-2005).]

[This message has been edited by LG (edited 03-23-2005).]

jimfun
03-22-2005, 08:41 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BillH:

His company, his right. Put yourself in his shoes, wouldn't you fire someone you couldnt get along with? I would.

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 03-22-2005).]</font>

Not his company, not his right. Punk supervisor who didn't know his job. I didn't make him look bad he did. Could have at least been man enough to tell me to start looking for a new job. Instead just blind sides me.

ibewgypsie
03-22-2005, 09:53 PM
..

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 03-23-2005).]

jackb
03-23-2005, 01:44 PM
I apologize if I missed this point in the last three pages of discussion. The one thing that everyone seems to have missed is that it does no good to complain about the lawn tactor bearing or the crate engine crank shaft here. Write the companies and complain.

Whether you believe that they are corrupt corporations planning the downfall of the US economy or not. There are people in them who's job it is to monitor the quality of the product. Let them know what you think of their current product and assure them that your purchasing is directed by these feelings.

Corporations live and die by selling goods and if you don't tell them what you are looking for in a product penny pinchers will sacrifice quality in components to save money because the consumer will never know. Let them know that you noticed and your not happy about it.

That is my rant,
Jack

dhensley
03-25-2005, 12:53 AM
Been watching this discussion with interest, especially since the concerns and frustration are pretty much how I feel. I've been scrambling to remain partially employed for the last 2-1/2 years after downsizing/outsourcing. My wife and I are pretty pessimistic about the future--actually, I take that back--we're scared.

Given the seemingly general outrage over the economy, can anyone explain to me why our duly elected government seems to be focusing on:

1) Eliminating interest rate restrictions
2) Restricting ability to file bankruptcy
3) Bringing democracy to an unwilling world
4) Janet Jackson's breast
5) The menace of gay marriage
6) No-expense-spared effort to intervene in only 1 of 30,000 PVS cases in the country
7) Baseball and steroids

The problem is the feeding frenzy / circus inside the beltway. I'd say throw the b***ds out, but we'd just end up with their roommate from Yale...

.RC.
03-25-2005, 09:13 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dhensley:
, can anyone explain to me why our duly elected government seems to be focusing on:

1) Eliminating interest rate restrictions
2) Restricting ability to file bankruptcy
3) Bringing democracy to an unwilling world
4) Janet Jackson's breast
5) The menace of gay marriage
6) No-expense-spared effort to intervene in only 1 of 30,000 PVS cases in the country
7) Baseball and steroids

</font>

8) that disabled woman that they are trying to starvr to death


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Originally posted by lg:

Australia has been trying to negotiate a trade agreement with the U.S. since 1927 and has finally this year got a slightly better deal. U.S. farmers can dump anything on us but they have 18 years to get it together before any tariffs on Australian produce will be reduced.</font>


Yes the US is doing it's fair share of supplying cheap products on the world stage also...As someone who produces beef for the world it annoyies me when a free trade agreement says we cannot export beef to the US without a tariff being placed on it for 18 yrs..

Also the massive subsidies the US gives to it's sugar farmers has all but destroyed our domestic sugar growers...

Remeber it works both ways...

wierdscience
03-25-2005, 09:45 AM
"Also the massive subsidies the US gives to it's sugar farmers has all but destroyed our domestic sugar growers...

Remeber it works both ways..."

Our sugar industry gets those subsidies because Brazil and South America were dumping sugar here.

Tinkerer
03-25-2005, 11:41 AM
Well the true problem is that the Crock Suckers in the Beltway don't have a clue as to how the REAL PEOPLE live. The folks that have to work three jobs just to make ends meet. The Beltway Bastards have never had blisters or callouses on their hands form working 60 hours a week doing manual labor. The Twits be it Federal... State... or Local don't have a understanding of what a DOLLAR is and what one is truly worth. To them it's Revenue... PLAY DOE.

(A). I think (WE) should place a cap on Credit Card Companies. In that I mean at the rate they are merging the CC providers are on the verge of being a Monopoly. Then within the micro text they state that if you miss a payment to ANYONE they have the right to UP your interest rate to the max even if it's not their card you missed paying. This is BULL**** and is also helping to destroy US. So if they place a reasonable cap on interest these leeches could levy... folks could climb out of debt faster... have more money to purchase other stuff and that would have the side effect of spurring the sagging economy. This one move would have a immediate effect on the economy. But alas the Bankers and the Beltway Bastards are one and the same.

(B) As to the NEW Bankruptcy law... Well if they did (A) we would not need (B).

As for welfare be it Corporate or otherwise... I say NO. Why should I be taxed to support other's it is Unconstitutional. I seen a piece a bit ago about Cotton Farms and Corp. Welfare. Here these Smug SOB's sat there laughing it up how the Fed.'s gave them Millions a year in Subsidies. Showed them walking around the cotton fields in friggin' designer clothes. Was not like they needed it... they just knew the right hindend to kiss. Remember every dollar they give the someone must be taken from someone else first.

But whattahell do I know... Tim

[This message has been edited by Tinkerer (edited 03-25-2005).]

lklb
03-25-2005, 12:00 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tinkerer:
Well the true problem is that the Crock Suckers in the Beltway don't have a clue as to how the REAL PEOPLE live. The folks that have to work three jobs just to make ends meet.</font>

Oh yes they do , they just don't care. You are talking about the new ruling class wannabes.They throw symbolism and nonsense at ( As Lenin called them )"the useful stooges " in an attempt to consolidate power.
You or any working mans plight is not on the Washington radar screen.Get used to it.

jkilroy
03-25-2005, 12:27 PM
"Guess you've never been fired form a non-union company because your boss has it in for you. It don't matter that he has absoultly no reason to fire you..he just don't like you. Well guess what...."your fired!" No recourse at all. Your out on your ass your bills ain't gettin paid your family's not eating tonight. Don't think it can happen? Well it can. I know it can."

Hey, you know what, life is a bitch. I work in a right to work state where you can be fired at any time without being given reason. Personally I think its better that workers fear for there jobs every day. That makes them actually work HARD and try to outdo the other guy and be nice to the boss and come in early etc.

Why do I feel this way? Because I work in as a contractor to the federal goverment, surrounded by union folks that can't be fired. And let me tell you, not a bunch getting done around here.

The federal goverment summed up...

Never have so many been paid so much to do so little.

You can quote me on that.

------------------
James Kilroy

ibewgypsie
03-25-2005, 03:25 PM
Never seen a job where you can get by doing very little work. Someone will "cull" you Union or not, that is.. Unless you kiss a lot of foreman butt. Never done that, Don't think it's in my genes.

People get fired everyday on union jobs. You do have to follow procedure to do so. I have been a foreman on jobs, When you have good men, A foreman is useless other than to procure the materiel to do the jobs and keep the time record. When you have "bad" men, you have to read the contract agreement and follow the rules of documentation and procedure. Ie: cull the problems out.

Quickest way to get rid of someone is saftey.
You do have people on each job with Specialties in different skill bases.. Some people are only good to run conduit. That is thier apex in life. Utilizing personell for maximum production is the foremans job.
ON union jobs, the senior citizens are "protected" in our agreement. You must have one elderly electrician in each job. This keeps the discrimination to a minimum. As my hair greys I do appreciate that. Old guys work smart more then working hard. Kinda like a art form, no wasted motion.

Lazy workers on a job is a problem of the supervision. Good money does not fix a man's morals and self respect.

------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia