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vinito
03-27-2005, 11:38 PM
And so it begins...

A generous fellow has set up a new bbs and one feature he added is a way to upload and download machine manuals. There are a few good ones there already. If you have even the slightest inclination, please consider scanning at least one of yours and uploading it there. So far it's set up with an ftp location to upload. If that is a hassle for some reason, let me or Adrian know and maybe another way can be set up. If you haven't dealt with ftp before, it's a really nice way to transfer files on the net IMO. Let me know if you have questions.

Here's the BBS (http://www.bbssystem.com/) (look in Machine Manuals)

Downloading is the usual "click on the link" (as well as ftp)

Personally I think it's high time something like this get going and it would be nice to build up a large library of stuff.

To answer one inevitable question: Most of our machines are older and I don't think copyright infringement will be an issue. Basically if manufacturers were making a lot of profit on manuals they might consider trouble if the copyright hasn't already expired, but not likely. Our machines were originally shipped with manuals which have just been lost along the way. Actually, it would be good PR for companies anyway if free manuals are available for their machines.

I hope you all find this a useful thing. Thanks to Adrian for setting it up.

[This message has been edited by vinito (edited 03-27-2005).]

tattoomike68
03-27-2005, 11:47 PM
also home of Clean Legal Dyslexic Lesbian nude skydiving and welding forum

http://www.bbssystem.com/viewforum.php?f=6
roflmao

but realy, it is a nice bbs. i will bookmark that.

MikeHenry
03-28-2005, 01:24 AM
As a point of reference some manufacturers that currently sell manuals and parts frown on distributing copies of their manuals. Clausing (which includes Atlas & the Craftsman derivatives thereof) and Logan are both examples, I believe.

Mike

3 Phase Lightbulb
03-28-2005, 01:45 AM
I'll post all Machine manuals online that are uploaded to the FTP site.. If a manufacture has a problem with that, I'll gladly remove their manual but I don't think any manufacture would mind in the context that they are provided.

If we were selling them, or providing them with clones of the original machines, then I can see the manufacture exercising their copyrights..

-3Ph

vinito
03-28-2005, 02:14 AM
True enough. It's worth a little caution. Note that copyrights older than 1964 likely are expired. If a company is out of business, there is very little chance anyone would bother to notice and I imagine there are only a handful who would frown even if they still exist.

I feel strongly though that it's not worth choking off access to hundreds of documents for fear of stepping on toes with a half-dozen files. If an problem is pointed out, it's easy to delete a file from the library. I'm sure there could be a flaming debate here with 50 posts concerning pro, con, tangents of possible copyright infringement and what-if's. If you have doubts, try to contact the company if it exists and see if they even offer a manual (before you spend your time scanning). If it's an unreadable 10 page xerox for $50 then you can feel free to be PO'd as I would and make your own decision.

With legal abuses and the BMI debacle flooding our awareness, it's easy to fall victim to paranoia. I could be wrong and this may crash and burn someday, but I am usually the most sceptical and cynical person in any room and I feel strongly that any problems with this effort, if any, would be minor.

Better to try and fail than not to try.

This could be such a great resource. I'd like to give it an earnest effort and see where it goes. Note that the goal is not to undermine legitimate profit from anyone. But when you are looking for a manual that only exists on the shelves of individuals homes across the country, it would be great to get what you need instantly instead of spending time searching bookstores, machinery auctions, estate sales, you name it, and possibly never find it after all.

Let's give the possibility a chance.

Mike Burdick
03-28-2005, 02:53 AM
Great!

I just uploaded two manuals to your site:

South Bend 9" and 10" inch lathes

South Bend 7" Shaper.

I have a number of others I'll upload to you as I get time (dialup connection).

_____________________________

[This message has been edited by Mike Burdick (edited 03-28-2005).]

Your Old Dog
03-28-2005, 07:20 AM
Venito, Adrian and Mike Verdict.

Thanks all. I downloaded the Southbend manual and found my problem with threading within 3 minutes! The SB9 stores the extra stud gear on the 56tooth wheel. I thought it interchanged with that one! Maybe making threads that work won't be so magical anymore http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif I never got a manual with this one. Got the sales catalogs that were in the drawers and even the receipt and accessories brochure but no manual.

What a great idea!

Ray...

teamsouth
03-28-2005, 08:21 AM
I can set up an ftp for the forum here with 1.5/768 connection but i would need people to upload manuals--space is not an issue

wierdscience
03-28-2005, 08:37 AM
Sounds good to me.I don't see the copyright being an issue since there is no money changing hands.After all,It's your manual and you are just loaning it to a friend right http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

mrainey
03-28-2005, 10:33 AM
"I don't see the copyright being an issue since there is no money changing hands"


Right, no money is going to the copyright holder and an additional set of hands has the manual.

Call a spade a spade.

topct
03-28-2005, 10:51 AM
Just got the SB lathe manual. Takes some time for it to come up on a dial-up, but it's worth the wait, thanks.

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Gene

nheng
03-28-2005, 11:02 AM
Each machine is "entitled" to have a standard manual http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

If the manual is gone, another one needs to be acquired.

In most companies, providing manuals is not a profit center, just a PITA.

Emco (Austria) was kind enough to give permission to post electronic versions of their green and red Maximat Super 11 Service Parts manual. It's posted in the files area of the Yahoo Super 11 group. If anyone needs a copy and hates Yahoo, email me for a copy.

MikeHenry
03-28-2005, 11:08 AM
3-Phase,

FWIW, I've been in contact with Clausing recently and they've asked me *not* to distribute any docs that they still sell.

I don't have any problem with that as their prices are pretty modest, anywhere from $5 to $25 for the docs I've needed.

Mike

Mcostello
03-28-2005, 10:37 PM
There might be another angle to this-----IF I were a manufacturer I MIGHT want to sell MORE replacement parts! More manuals "out there" more parts sold, machines worth more also, maybe more production of machines with more satisified owners.

Angus in Maine
03-28-2005, 11:07 PM
Don't want to take issue or sides here as a new member - but as a concerned member who also writes for some of his living I must point out:

Documents written for hire or corporate purpose on or after Jan. 1,1978 are protected 95 years from copyrighting or 120 years from date of creation.

Documents created on or before Dec.31, 1922 are LIKELY in the public domain (not guaranteed).

Changes in copyright law in 1976 and more in 1992 have further lengthened and strengthened most all copyrights.

www.ivanhoffman.com/expiration.html (http://www.ivanhoffman.com/expiration.html) is one source for more info.

Ownership, is ownership and you cannot do anything with copyrighted material someone owns - your situation sounds uniquely reminiscent of a brewhaha caused by "sharing" music.

Be careful they don't start calling you the "Toolster" http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

It's like parking in front of someone's drive - they will only get P.O.ed if they try use their drive and find YOU in the way.

Unfortunately, they will be within their rights to call the cops.

Just my 5 cents worth - infalation hurts us all :rollseyes:

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"But the Junkyard IS my storage area, Honey!"

nheng
03-28-2005, 11:53 PM
According to Cornell:

1923 through 1977, Published without a copyright notice ---> In the public domain

1978 to 1 March 1989, Published without notice, and without subsequent registration ---> In the public domain

In other words, there are a lot of manuals in the public domain.

There are numerous benefits to making manuals available:

1) solves customer problems and breeds good will for that company and its products.

2) sells replacement parts, accessories and consumables.

3) helps to sell new product when the time comes ... a double edge sword but many have benefited from it.

Those who spend the time and effort to cleanup, scan, tabulate or format older manuals should probably be given the most respect for the time and effort which they put into the reproduction effort. They are the little guys who may be hurt the most from copying their products.

Mike Burdick
03-29-2005, 12:16 AM
Angus in Maine,

What you say is completely valid but…let’s be practical. Okay the law is the law but look back at the original author’s intent of the work – it was to provide an owner of the machine valuable information of it for usefulness as well as safety. I don’t think there was an “explicit” plan to make money on them.

Not even Libraries save this information! I know this doesn’t lessen the fact of perhaps a so-called “technical” copyright infringement but if we don’t save this information, who will?

I think it is reasonable to think that parts manuals are public domain based on their intent and purpose.

Jpfalt
03-29-2005, 12:45 AM
The law is the law.

The Logan manuals are public domain.

Angus in Maine
03-29-2005, 12:47 AM
Mike,

Thanks for your kind words, I tried to be logical not emotional.

Emotionally, checkout my profile and you konw how I feel about the written word! Nearly every month I am trying to scare up a manual for something that I have acquired or scavanged - sometimes with no luck.

My main point here is that these documents (all actually) are either public domain or not.

It is that simple - for each one.

The authors intent, quite frankly, was probably not to provide anything to the tool purchaser, but rather to provide a requested document to an employer - and the intent does not effect my previous point anyway.

I just do not want anyone from the forum to find themselves up to their benchtops in legal crap. All it takes is one disgruntled, pain in the but, lawyer toting copyright holder and yeech!

Let us remember with malpractice tort reform these people will be looking for anything new to sink their teeth into http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

I think maybe The Golden Rule applies well here - what if you owned it and found it broadcast for free? What would you do?

Love the concept of disemination hate the reality of litigation.

Chances are good nothing will come of it, I am just merely saying that something could if you haven't dotted i's and crossed t's.

------------------
"But the Junkyard IS my storage area, Honey!"

vinito
03-29-2005, 02:51 AM
"Chances are good nothing will come of it, I am just merely saying that something could if you haven't dotted i's and crossed t's."

That's kinda where I'm coming from. As I pointed out, there is no intention of undermining legitimate profit and if we become aware of a problem it would be dealt with quickly. If I sold off everything I had, they could pay an attourney for two hours of his bill. It would be foolish for a company or lawyer to waste time and money pursuing damages that might amount to a hundred bucks or so in lost revenue (legal action is a civil suit, not a criminal one) and especially when they discover that we fully cooperate within our means by instantly deleting an item once a problem is pointed out (if it ever happens). Again, chances are nothing will come of it.
It's worth it.

We already know (via Mike) there could be a problem with Clausing, so an effort will be made to contact the company if something from them is uploaded before it's made available for download, or very soon after if one slips through. Even then, I imagine that some of their older stuff could be public domain, and that's the kind of stuff they probably no longer sell anyway.

Mike B. points out something I haven't made mention of yet, but it's a subject that keeps coming up for me lately. Like the machines, this stuff is slowly disappearing through attrition. It's worth this effort if only to preserve the material that noone cares about but us.
Example: I have an old Hardinge T10 lathe that no doubt had a manual to go with it. It's a bit of a holy grail because noone on the net has mentioned ever seeing one. There are a few drawings with Hardinge title blocks floating around there, and these are for esoteric stuff like "how to remove the head from the base", so you know there were tons of other drawings and literature that are now rotting at the bottom of a landfill somewhere near Elmira.

No doubt there are lots of other similar situations just like this. I think we can all agree that it would be a worthy effort to slow down this attrition and help ourselves as well as tomorrow's machinists, your decendants, from losing even more.

Thank you.
(I hope this post doesn't sound like a rant)

Joel
03-29-2005, 04:39 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by vinito:
[i If I sold off everything I had, they could pay an attourney for two hours of his bill.</font>

So your one of those rich guys I see driving around in their fancy Ford Pintos like they own the world. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Your Old Dog
03-29-2005, 07:17 AM
Just a tad off subject but noteworthy:

nheng wrote: "It's posted in the files area of the Yahoo Super 11 group. If anyone needs a copy and hates Yahoo, email me for a copy."

I had a clean machine until Yahoo! I inquired about it here on the forum, some said they had no problems. I regisstered and now my email is full of porn and other ads nearly everyday. They got me and I don't know how to stop it.

Back to topic: For what it's worth, I opened up several of the manuals from various manufacturers and found that Uncle Sam made many of them (no copyright) and when I scanned other manuals for "copyright" I found no hits. I don't think most are copyrighted anyway. Acrobat 6 has a search function that's quick and easy.

Ray...



[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 03-29-2005).]

John Stevenson
03-29-2005, 08:14 AM
Why is everyone a frigging bar room lawyer?

If you want a manual, download it use and what's the problem.
I see loads of posts where someone asks for a manual even offers to pay [ Lordy Lordy 3 hail Mary's 2 Mitutoyo's and a More and wright ] and gets a repy from another member that he has one and will sent it.

What's the frigging difference ?????/

Anyone looked at machinerymanuals.com ?
Don't you think at what they charge if they had upset anyone they would still be in business? but they are.

Take a company like Herberts in the UK.
they finished up buying everybody out so they own all the rights to 90% of UK machine tool manufactures. Where are they now ? gone but the rights will still be owned by someone.

That someone is probably a clerk in a big law firm who handles any spurious work that it still entails.
He probably has no idea that they own any rights.
He aslo has no idae that because the firm and manufacturing base is dead that there is any interest in it.
If he did get wind that some old codger was copying a defunct manual to give to some even older codger what's he going to do ?
First thing cease and desist letter whilst they weight up if it's worth getting a 10k high court writ to snatch his 45 quid pension.

Now lets put this in real terms, hands up without falling out your wheelchairs whos's had a cease and desist letter over a machine manual that's still in print ??

I regulary see copies of Myford manuals on ebay but they are still in print and reasonable priced. Why haven't Myford stooped this ?

Check first if you can you may get a pleasant suprise if the firm is still going.

I wanted a manual for a Brierely drill grinder.
Tony at lathes.co.uk has a photocopy for £25 plus postage.
I ranf Brielely's up about some other bits and asked about a manual. The nice lady there said noproblem but we need the serial number as there were many changes and mods to the models. The manual new, post paid was £20.
Chances are Tonys wouldn't have covered my machine anyway.

If people are taking the time and effort to continue this work lets take advantage of it.
It it doesn't feel right to you then fine, don't download it.

John S.

IOWOLF
03-29-2005, 08:19 AM
I do try to keep my mouth shut on topics like thiese,However,lets look at it from a diferent angle....People sue Gun corps. for accedental shootings,claiming I didnt know how to use it, there for all gun co. will send you a free manual to any one who needs one and provides a serial # for said gun.

A lathe or mill can be dangerious as well.Do we have to wait for some A brain to get hurt and sue? This makes prices of machines to go up as well as every thing that goes with it.
Most corps. will ask nicely first to stop , then get nasty.

IMHO



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I use to hate working for someone else, now I work for everyone else!

Angus in Maine
03-29-2005, 02:10 PM
I must apologize if I have stepped on toes here or abroad - it was not my intention.

I have spent little time in bars John, probably more time with lawyers and in court.

Not to say I like it - but as a self-employed freelance writer I have had no choice at times.

Here in the U.S., as I type, they are gearing up again to go after computer sharing - this time the programs and programers who make sharing possible will be the target.

Before that (to the present) it was the Uploader who risked legal action.

I'm not a lawyer - but I use them. What other choice do I have?

I have worked in the history and museum area as an adjucnt to my writing - I understand COMPLETELY the need for preservation of the printed word.

This year over 900,000 documnets and books will be lost in the Library of Congress collection to due "slow-fire". They will crumble to dust.

All I have tried to say is that ethically there is a right way and a wrong way to set up an archive and I would hope those administering and participating would wish to do it the frigging right way http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

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"But the Junkyard IS my storage area, Honey!"

madman
03-29-2005, 02:35 PM
That was always a huge problem in the states. Too many lazy bastards that love to get ass lawyers to sue people cause they are a bunch of stupid lazy ****s. Its amazing.

lklb
03-29-2005, 03:17 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Angus in Maine:


Here in the U.S., as I type, they are gearing up again to go after computer sharing - this time the programs and programers who make sharing possible will be the target.

Before that (to the present) it was the Uploader who risked legal action.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

</font>

Yep. On the order of 5000 random lawsuits were filed against supposed downloaders, including 12 year old boys,grandmothers, even a dead woman. All they need is an internet address to file.I believe they will settle with you for ~$10000 before proceedings start.
Lets face it, the recording industry is a rip-off anyway.Prices way too high ,quality of product way too low.If young people got together, and had a 3 month moratorium on purchases these gestapo tactics would disappear instantly.
Ever larger gangs of Lawyers chasing fewer big issue causes and billing opportunities, leads one to believe that it's not impossible that legal action could happen against someone who downloads machinery manuals.
Do your homework and be anonymous online. It's not hard and you can protect yourself. LK

[This message has been edited by lklb (edited 03-29-2005).]

Angus in Maine
03-30-2005, 02:24 PM
Sorry Madman, but I have to diasgree strongly - the lazy ones are the one who STEAL rather than pay for what somebody else owns.

You would not let me walk in off the street, say nothing to you, plant myself in front of one your tools and just start using it, would you?

Writing is hard work. The song or book or manual or whatever is ALL you have to sell at the end of that work. If somebody takes that for free, you loose bucks, pure and simple.

You giving it away for free this week? If so I'll send you some projects that I am not quite up to speed on and you can do the work gratis and send them back. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

I did not set up the legal system in this country - but it can serve hard workers like myself as well as the occasional lazy "s" who can get their day in court (but can just as easily be dismissed as pointless).

Everybody complains about the courts and lawyers until they need the system - then they hop right in and expect to receive their due.

That's not being lazy - it is just using the system that is in place.

------------------
"But the Junkyard IS my storage area, Honey!"

mrainey
03-30-2005, 03:36 PM
"Lets face it, the recording industry is a rip-off anyway.Prices way too high ,quality of product way too low."


You make the choice whether to buy, steal, or do without. As you said, the entertainment industry would quickly cave in if enough people boycotted their products.

I'd rather buy or do without than steal.

Mcgyver
03-30-2005, 05:24 PM
"It it doesn't feel right to you then fine, don't download it"

well put.

I like these good/evil internet sharing threads. I was thinking about morals, ethics, the law the other day as it relates to this. A law proof once told me that "laws are created to maintain the status quo" the point being is they are a construct, and the fact that something is a law does not give it automatic and universal moral or ethical high ground. Not to say I don't believe in copyright law, only pointing out that to say something is a law is not the same as saying what’s right and wrong.

Most people daily decide what they think is right and wrong, a decision that often leads to conscionable acts of law breaking! a rolling stop at a deserted cross road, 10k/h or even 1k/h over the limit on the highway, letting the parking meter expire, tearing the tag off a new mattress. An individual consciously decides if they are going to break a law based on either or both of 1) their ethics, and 2) their threshold of pain regarding the sanctions.

Knowing that
1) law is separate from good/evil, 2) you’re convinced you can still live with yourself in morning after committing the dastardly deed, and 3) you are willing to risk the fine or imprisonment, its an individual decision whether to download for non commercial purposes a 30 year manual that is not available from the manufacture? (remember, whether the manufacture offers it for sale has no bearing on whether you are breaking the law copying it). Also, I said an individual decision, not right….that’s very different. One’s pragmatic the other conceptual.

A person's ethics are a little bit like that old joke - everyone on the road is either an idiot (slower) or a maniac (faster) – everyone’s different and it’s a waste of time to impose yours on others. if it bothers your ethics to d/l a 30 year manual, don't go to the site.

Mike Burdick
03-30-2005, 06:20 PM
Hey...

I have a manual that I purchased from South Bend and Clausing and neither have a reference or statement pertaining to a copyright.

Could it be that parts and operation manuals mean about zero to most companies? Matter of fact, call up some companies and ask for manuals on their obsolete products and see what response you get!

Like John Stevenson says:

“…If it doesn't feel right to you then fine, don't download it…”

Oh no! John is probably going to sue me for copyright infringement since I used some of his material without his consent. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

John Stevenson
03-30-2005, 06:31 PM
Relax Mike.
I don't believe in paying lawyers $500 an hour when you can get someone legs broken for $200.
Sorry nothing personal, just trying to save a few bucks http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.