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Herb Helbig
04-23-2005, 10:49 PM
We're about to have new shingles installed on house roof (coastal Maine). Any words of wisdom would be welcome. For example, there seems to be a difference of opinion about the merits of fiber glass based shingles.

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Forrest Addy
04-24-2005, 02:04 AM
Roofing tip of the week: DON'T SHINGLE FROM THE RIDGE DOWN.

Start at the eaves.

[This message has been edited by Forrest Addy (edited 04-24-2005).]

.RC.
04-24-2005, 05:31 AM
2nd roofing tip of the week.....

Shingles suck......Get corrugated iron... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Ringer (edited 04-24-2005).]

lklb
04-24-2005, 06:26 AM
Heavy "Architect" shingles are worth the extra money.Cheap shingles LOOK like cheap shingles.

Guarantees:

When I was young I worked for an 82 year old roofer named "Harry". We were starting a residential job when the woman of the house came out and asked Harry about the guarantee on the roof job. Harry replied, "What do you want? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? I'm 82 years old, I'll give you any guarantee you want.",with a BIG grin.

Harry was cool and like all roofers would go to the local tavern after work to get his reward of a line of boilermakers.That to me was a real success story..........................

Techtchr
04-24-2005, 08:02 AM
I Re-roofed my house 5 years ago. The old shingles came off in pieces every time the wind blew more than about 20 mph. I replaced them with fibre glass Architectural shingles with a 40 year guarantee and an 80 mile an hour wind rating. I was more concerned with the wind rating as I did not want to pick up any shingles in the yard after a storm. FYI my house is on top of a hill with no trees shading the house. I've had 50-60 mph winds since the roofing job and no shingles on the ground. By the way, these shingles weigh considerably more and are thicker than conventional shingles. If I remember corectly, there were 4 bundles to a square instead of the typical 3.
Happy roofing, Matt

SGW
04-24-2005, 08:18 AM
Yeah, get the best shingles you can find. Compared to the amount of work it takes to put them on, the cost of even the most expensive shingles is minimal.

These http://www.authentic-roof.com/ intrigue me. Never used them though.

pete913
04-24-2005, 08:36 AM
Aren't all modern shingles made with fiberglass? I've done quite a bit of shingling over the years myself. A few opinions have formed for me. One, you get exactly what you pay for as far as roofing materials. two, I would never reshingle a roof in an area where there is the possibility of ice dams without 3 feet of ice dam protector above the top wall plate, or reshingle over an old roof. three, so called wind lock or interlocking shingles are a joke. You can't flash properly with them, no way no how, at which point the flashing underneath becomes the roof, and the shingles a decoration. In a 60 mph wind, they don't come off in ones and twos, but great big areas all at once.
Another thing, choose your roofing contractor carefully. For some reason seems to attract more wanna be's and scam artists than any other construction trade.

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 04-24-2005).]

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 04-24-2005).]

Your Old Dog
04-24-2005, 08:46 AM
My contractor asked me if I wanted to pay extra for 30 year archetectual shingles over 25 year shingles. A friend told me to tell him no because you couldn't by 25 year shingles if you wanted! My job was done with 30 year shingles according to the wrappers in the yard!

Kind of like paying extra money to have you plastic eyeglasses dipped in a magical anti scratch coating. I told them no I didn't want the anti-scratch coating and is there someway you can garuentee me that they won't dip them anyway! (that dip is a routine part of the eyeglass making process)

I would say this, if you're over 60, living on fixed income I wouldn't go nuts on expensive roofing unless you plan to live to be 200! I've reached the age where I'm filtering all purchases that way! Every penny I can save can be spent on "billet" material for the shop or left to my errors http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 04-24-2005).]

lklb
04-24-2005, 09:03 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Your Old Dog:
My contractor asked me if I wanted to pay extra for 30 year archetectual shingles over 25 year shingles. A friend told me to tell him no because you couldn't by 25 year shingles if you wanted! My job was done with 30 year shingles according to the wrappers in the yard!</font>

I haven't roofed in a long time but I think what we are talking here is weight and thickness of the roofing material.
I.E.--3 bundles per square vs 4 bundles per square.
Around here almost no one puts on lightweight shingles, and realtors will tell you that a architect roof will definitely make the property more attractive to buyers and is a good investment.

ibewgypsie
04-24-2005, 09:37 AM
Once the roofing heats up and glues itself it is "one" roof. The sticky seam on the back is the trick. Premuim shingles last. Pull a chalk line, lay them on it. Butted end to end like the instructions on the bundle say. Not overlapped. 1st row upside down on the eave. Second row on top. Put your flashing up before shingling on the eaves. Believe it or not, you must have a circulation to keep from "burning up the shingles" if the attic gets too hot it will happen. If it don't get hot enough it will never seam-seal and lock the shingles together.

Metal roofing is better in some ways, it goes up fast. Don't stack it. I had two bundles bought for my addition. I stacked one, moisture got in between the sheets and was a white powder on the painted finish as I put it up. Now it is rusted. Other side bought at same time looks wonderful. I am still cussing and wishing I had shingled it. (and it is on the street side of house)

I am not a engineer, nor do I play one on television, just a lot of real world useless information. I read a lot and retain much crapola in between the lines.

I hate roofing.

lklb
04-24-2005, 09:53 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:


I hate roofing.</font>


Yep,roofing blows.

madman
04-24-2005, 10:30 AM
Flat roofing blows.

ibewgypsie
04-24-2005, 10:50 AM
I should have said "overlap tabs- tangs as told on instructions, do not overlap end to end" No black color should be visible. Only the tang or tab color.

Warranty? It is your fault. No real warranty exists with shingles. If you are a homeowner and not a licensed insured contractor you lose before they even listen to you.

He laughed at my sheet metal roofing. EVERY ROOFER KNOWS NOT TO GET IT WET. My 30 year warranty was worth zip.

Sculpted 3d or architech shingles hide installion flaws much better. Flat regular shingles must be installed with much more care.

It is highly visible of your house. The end result shows highly and affects the value of your home.

John Stevenson
04-24-2005, 10:55 AM
What's all this 25 year lark?
Roofs around here are tiled, most of the houses around me are over 100 years old and most still have their original roofs.

I must admit to having a new roof done after 92 years as the lead gullies were in a bad way and I knew I was extending and wanted the new part to match.
All the tiles were removed by hand, stored and sold on for restoration work.
That saved a third of the cost of the roof.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/extension.jpg

You can't see the house roof but it maatches the extension. The other houses in the background are the same age as ours, built in 1901, still on original roofs and still good for another 100 years.

John S.

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 04-24-2005).]

#66B
04-24-2005, 03:00 PM
The warrenty on shingles ain't worth the paper they wrap the bundle in, If you choose ( ICO ) shingle, ashphault 25 Year, 90 days after installation, 8 shingles shriveled up & fell apart, now mind ya , this is a new building, I call the Pr_ck that sold them to me, he would not evan come down to look at them, he gave me a phone #, which wasn't the manufacturer, it was a firm in Chicago hired to handle compolaints, the same year a local contractor had to replace 2 church roofs, using the same brand. So my advice is ignore the warrenty and Don't buy any ICO shingles, the people were real a_ _ holes & I got no help wiyth the roof, are replacing it this year, looks like its 30 yrs. old at the age of 5. Now that burns my hindend, 25 year warren. (ya right)

ibewgypsie
04-24-2005, 04:59 PM
How did them roofs hold up under Adolphs bombs there John? You know? before "we" bailed your country out? It'd have a swastika hanging from the eaves if the USA had not came over to visit. Bunch of Stubborn people the brits, the other small countries fell to him in a short order. Ya know the french, poles and others over in that neighborhood gave up and flew his flag.

(yeah I know, stirring the pot) I love ya man, just picking..

David

John Stevenson
04-24-2005, 05:19 PM
Well they didn't catch fire http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

ibewgypsie
04-24-2005, 07:20 PM
Yeah, the fire bombing of Dresden was just to satisfy Churchill's ego. Firebombing the citizens of one of the oldest cities in Europe served no true military purpose.

So I was told anyways. Heck, my Uncle George Wolfenbarger was over there shooting his cousins. He had a silver star over the way he handled himself. He kept getting into trouble and came out smelling like roses. (hunting bottles of wine in france and walking into Nazi offices)

The local Mexican restruant has a tile roof like yours John: The cost is prohibitive over here. Too much..

We had Depression era furniture too, it went from lasting several generations to lasting one. (particle board) I think we went the same way with our homes over here. I forget which president they named the furniture after. He instituted it. They do american autos like that too, they wear out too quickly and must be replaced.

David

Wirecutter
04-24-2005, 07:47 PM
Damn, John. Once again, that sure is a beautiful job on the addition.

Oh, and I sure wouldn't mind having a tile roof, either. Problem is, the homes in my area are not built for it. My house has, I believe, what is known as a 9-pitch roof, i.e. *very* steep. This is why the builder doesn't have to make for as much snow-loading - it won't accumulate enough to matter. Unfortunately, it also probably won't handle the weight of tile.

-M

Techtchr
04-24-2005, 08:02 PM
Dave,
You might want to check that "first row upside down" method. It has been tradition to do this, but incorrect. Rolled starter strip is essentially a long roll of shingle material with the three tabs cut off so that the tar sealant will stick down the first real row of shingles. If you use normal shingles to start, cut off the three tabs and nail them on so that the tar will glue down the first row, and the ends are staggered so that no seams line up for possible leaks. If all else fails, the shingle packages tells you how to install them.

I've done 5 roofs in the last 4 years, and all of them used ice dam material for the first 3', rolled starter strip and premade roof caps. So far no leaks http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

John S.
I met an American that learned Thatch roofing in the UK, and is doing this roofing method in the US now. I was surprised to learn that thatched roofs properly maintained last much longer than shingled roofs.

Although I intend to roof my garage this summer, I shouldn't have to roof my house again until I'm almost 80 (according to the shingle warranty), and at that time I intend to get someone to do it for me.

Matt

snowman
04-24-2005, 08:21 PM
the only advice i have on roofing is simple.

hire it out

if you dont

dont fall off

when a friend says "I need a favor" and he's been complaining about a leaky roof...I run...fast!

-Jacob

Boomer
04-24-2005, 09:08 PM
Had steel put on ours, just finished when it started raining. A light rain just beads up until it reaches a "critical mass" and then there are little water avalanches here and there. Can't wait to see the snow slide off next winter, might not have to wait that long, there's a chance of snow in the forecast.

Couldn't believe how much it cost to dispose of the old asphalt shingles, just over 2 tons cost over $200. No wonder people toss their junk out on remote country roads&gt;

Bruce

BWS
04-24-2005, 10:01 PM
Actually Mr. Addy,when putting the felt on underneath shingles it is not only faster but better to put it on from the top down.First off,paper "hangs".Next is it requires fewer nails and the nails that are being used are doing more valuble work.But biggest reason is that the toe bds. get removed on the way down the roof,requiring way fewer bds. but also you're not putting holes in felt should it need to stay on for awhile(it really shouldn't be exposed to too much daylight cause oil evaporates)and finally you're not getting roofer p*ssed off for him having to remove.

Herb,it sounds like you're doin enough research to be fairly informed.As one poster mentioned the warrenties are EXTREMELY hard to collect on,and if you do they usually don't include labor and are prorated.The Archetectural series offers several advantages over older 3-tabs.They're thicker to begin with but their main advantage is in wind resistance because of the shingles length.IOWs on a 3-tab each tab is on its own so to speak.Arch. series are also easier to install.We're no longer overly concerned with vertical alignment.My advice is to get about 75% up the $ ladder.But the biggest reason for responding is hoping ya'll are really payin attention to the color of the new roof.I will say if you're handy with a digital camera and a computer that this is one of the most fullproof ways of making ANY alteration to your home.You simply take a picture and then play with colors on a computer.Noting that to a certain extent shingles will "Camilian"(sp)towards other more prevelent hues.Hard to describe but think that the shingles are usually not one color,instead are made up of a base color and then have varying "tones".Its these tones that will get pulled out by other colors on the house.So the computer trick is only good to a point on roofing.After choosing a cpl. colors have your supplier or roofer give you some jobs with them on that ya'll can go check out.Best of luck,BW

PS Working on your home sometimes seems a daunting task with all the choices.But it really can be a fun experience....and SHOULD be.Take your time and have fun.

ibewgypsie
04-24-2005, 10:18 PM
Quote: PS Working on your home sometimes seems a daunting task with all the choices.But it really can be a fun experience....and SHOULD be.Take your time and have fun.
end quote:

Yeah, have fun... I can't raise my right arm at the moment. All the sheetrock is on the ceilings bedroom and master bath. Bath is also walled. I could not get a jack in there, used an fabricated cross-arm tee and Carrol. She just rubbed the flex-all into my shoulder and back and is off to bed.. alone..

I did go into my shop, built some iron gates for the property here (last week). I sure appreciate having a home-shop when I can do anything I want, build anything I want. Kinda like having a magic shop.

It takes "work" to have anything nice. It takes "work" to keep it nice. It doesn't happen overnight by elves.

Steel roofing is neat, I learned to put the nails/screws in the top of the Vee's (on barns). with the new roofing you put them in the flat. I siliconed every darn one thou.

3 Phase Lightbulb
04-24-2005, 10:39 PM
The hardest part replacing a roof is cleaning up the mess afterwards.. If you're smart, you'll figure out a way not to make a huge mess spread all over the place while tearing off the old shingles..

-Adrian

Toolbert
04-24-2005, 10:40 PM
The architectural/laminated are worth the extra $. It's not just the weight, the important difference is that the base of the entire shingle is a solid sheet, with a separate layer of "tabs" glued on top, instead of cut into a sheet. So the weather seal is better, and it's harder for the wind to rip off tabs.

Gerryrig
04-24-2005, 11:03 PM
Another reason for RWS's great suggestion of starting from the top removing old shingles and adding the "tar" paper is that, if you are doing the roof by yourself and rain catches you before all the old roofing is off, it is easier to make the roof water resistant by overlapping the paper over the old roofing until the rain passes. Also less wood chips and stray nails to catch the top of and go under the paper before the next row covers it. I, too, would purchase the heavier shingles of which ever style you choose. If your old roofing is badly cupped on the sunny side, I would add more venting because the air under the roof has been too hot. Gerry

BWS
04-25-2005, 08:03 AM
Shingle removal:Biga$$ tarps(cheapies will work)and I really like using our Safeway scaffolding,we call'm "Party decks".They're so fast to setup,catches almost 90% of the shingles where you can toss'm into truck,trailer,dumpster,ect.A pro won't use'm 'cause they think it takes longer,but they generally don't give a flyin effe about the mess.

If ya'll want some great partime help,go to local HS football(I personally like the wrestler's)coach and ask for some help.Tell him that you'll make a nice big fat donation to their athletic dept.They'll jump on it everytime.Sure beats the H*ll out of them sellin cookie dough to raise $$.And you get the benifit of contributing to a decent cause.Best of luck,BW

PS once had an olympic bound shot put guy help with a move.Seein him pickup a 'fridge and calmly ask where we wanted it caused some serious slackjaw on our part.....DANG!

Rich
04-25-2005, 09:42 AM
Herb,Go with the architectural shingles;move up in price range beyond the entry level products.As stated above you are mainly buying a heavier,thicker shingle which translates into longer life.In our area Certainteed and Elk are good brands.Certainteed has good service after the sale with warranty issues.
If this is a re-roof be sure to tear off the old.Adding another layer does'nt look as good and shortens the lifespan of the new roof.If you have an older home with skip sheathing renail the old and re sheath with a layer of OSB or plywood.Nails,not staples for your shingles;I've seen disasterous results with staples.Don't skip the felt or
underlayment---it's an important part of the recipe.I'm using the Typar roof wrap or Triflex 30 now instead of felt.It is a lot tougher,lighter to handle and lasts longer if you can't get the shingles on right away.
And,if this is a weekend warrior job,be carefull.If you're not comfortable with heights hire the pros and stay in the shop to make some chips.
Rich

ibewgypsie
04-25-2005, 10:12 AM
My buddy Doc, He is a wiry small frame Irish stock of a guy. He slid off his metal roof on his house. When we did my back-side of a addition he showed up to help.

I liked to have died when he tied a rope around a big ole farm boy, throwed it across the crown, then kept a loop around his middle.

Working on the crown recently I had to put some more screws in it after a 80mph wind. Dang I was wishing I had Doc's rope and big ole farm-anchor.

I saw Doc, he weighs in under 150lbs, Grab a 300+ pound man with one hand and snatch him both feet off the ground and hold him up against the wall (gurgling) while smoking his cigarette with the other. Just because a man is small don't think he can't or won't hurt you. He has a tender heart thou and a fondness for stray cats and dogs. Anytime something needs dispatching because it is too old or sick he calls me. (his heartless friend) He can't fight worth spit thou, just solid as a rock.

Doc is about like me thou, all used up.

20 minutes to get out of bed this morning, (late) and making noises.

John Stevenson
04-25-2005, 10:26 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:

20 minutes to get out of bed this morning, (late) and making noises.</font>


IBEW, The technical term is a fart

Norman Atkinson
04-25-2005, 02:09 PM
I have been quite delirious with laughter about the views on roofing materials.

Fibreglass and its variants only came in after the last War- say 1950. At this point, no roofing has obviously lasted far less than half a century.

Vinyl - again- is a product after the war and as such has no track record.

So, it goes for other plastics- apart from Bakelite.

The comments about steel roofing- corrugated or otherwise- zinc coated or otherwise- simply do not hold water- apologies! Corrugated iron is a cheap- and short lived product.

Wood- is still a good choice. Even softwoods last remarkably well. My appartment in France is at 6500feet and stands blazing summer suns whilst it has to stand winter snow and ice. Look at Les Arcs 1800's webcam- it is outside my door.

Stone is still a traditional material even in limestone and sandstone. Some of it here, has lasted in buildings and was removed from the Roman Wall. Welsh slate lasts even better. Mine, on my new bungalow was from some other building.

Again, I have red tiles- made from clay and they stand up to the sub Arctic of the Grampians whilst another set has stood against the sea in the Mediterannean.
The old barn, like so many places has weathered whatever the North Sea has chucked at it for 200 years.

Maybe, an alternative cheap jack solution is a venture into a Fool's Paradise!

As a comment by David needs somw correction, the bombs dropped by the Germans were rarely heavier than a modest 500 pounds and say 8 were dropped together from a Heinkel 111 plus incendiaries.
Sort of amount that a Flying Fortress B-17 dropped- on Dresden. Then once things were going nicely, it was the turn to drop all incendiaries.

Statisticly, a young Arthur Harris of the Royal Flying Corps in what 1915 realised from watching the complete and utter futility of Trench Warfare. To remind you, David, Harris actually tried poison gas in Afghanistan. He was the one who lead the first aerial attack on Baghdad and then Jerry Witts did the second in the so called first Gulf War- which was the second. Perhaps, it is worth mentioning that gas and fire have been used by the Germans.
It seemed very successful on the Holocaust victims.

However, it is you, cousins, that the use of the Boeing B-29 came into its own. Read the book!

Atkinson, the Bastard
Royal Air Force, the 31 (Goldstar) Squadron.
1915- to date.

Boomer
04-25-2005, 02:50 PM
"However, it is you, cousins, that the use of the Boeing B-29 came into its own. Read the book!"

Eh?

[This message has been edited by Boomer (edited 04-25-2005).]

Ted Coffey
04-25-2005, 03:00 PM
A friend of mine who is a retired home builder he told me once that anybody that does roofing as an occupation has questionable intelligence.

lklb
04-25-2005, 03:18 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ted Coffey:
A friend of mine who is a retired home builder he told me once that anybody that does roofing as an occupation has questionable intelligence.</font>

Seems as though popular opinion has it that , in this country anyway, anyone who works with their hands has that attribute.

Norman Atkinson
04-25-2005, 04:10 PM
Working with one's hands?

Since Man could walk on two feet, he has worked with his hands. I would appreciate that he will never be paid sufficiently for what those two hands have accomplished.

How I envy you people who do.

The heaviest thing that I have lifted- for pay- is a pen!

John S will probably say " Check book" but when you are 93, you will say anything!

N

John Stevenson
04-25-2005, 04:14 PM
Nay lad,
'evist thing 'round ere as gorra be a drippin butty.
proper drippin tha'is

ibewgypsie
04-25-2005, 04:38 PM
Norman:

Our world has fell apart since WW2. NOTHING seems to be made as good as it was. Craftsmanship in the line of work I do is lost. People just don't want to spend the time or achieve the talent to produce good work. They just want a paycheck. Pride is gone. Kids wear thier pants down so low they can't even work with both hands, (one hand holds the pants up) much less produce something that will last a lifetime.

Roofing sucks, the things I can afford do not last like the tiles you and John speak of. So, I guess it gets done a dozen times in my lifetime.

My house is a shack compared to the new ones going up here on this hill. $250k is about the rate, mine is worth about 60-80k. Someday they will knock on my door and tell me to tear it down or move.

The Germans were our enemy (WW2), Screw all that oppose "us". England has stuck by us with the recent struggle, much to the political heat. Hurrah for the Stubborn Brits.
I didn't mean to strike a fire under ya, just picking at John. He deserves it some.

------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia

Norman Atkinson
04-25-2005, 05:02 PM
Just been starved for medical checks for the last 24 hours.
I am having dizzy attacks from low blood pressure.

Could murder a dripping sandwich or even a scabby horse between a couple of snotty sandwiches.Anything to put my blood pressure- UP.

Boomer is doing well. What about the legend of the Enola Gay- with a BRITISH navigator?
Ibewgypsie- Arthur Harris was Commanding Officer of my Squadron in Jan 1921 to May 1922. Churchill- was- ahem- half American and married one.
Pity about Dresden- nearly burned as many people as a couple of weeks in the gas chambers!What was those things which were flying over it -by day? I would guess the good old United States Air Force.

No, Sir. Please, Sir. Wasn't me, Sir!

Norman Atkinson
04-25-2005, 05:11 PM
Sorry David!

At my age, my urination is fast but my typing is slow- and your rather nice missive came before I sort of pressed the tit- if I can remember one.

I worked with your boys on the Berlin Air Lift. You fed a city the size of Berlin from the Air- in fact, it was Berlin!
A lot of your boys didn't come home.All our planes were like the blokes- passed by their sell by date.Not in the book but I wished it was!

It was the greatest act of humanity in the 20th Century and they built a wall to stop your guys!

OK, fella, truce?

John Stevenson
04-25-2005, 05:56 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:

I didn't mean to strike a fire under ya, just picking at John. He deserves it some.

</font>

Moi ? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

ibewgypsie
04-25-2005, 06:14 PM
Heck Norman: I done blowed my right arm out again.. Got up 14 sheets of sheetrock. By myself. I can't raise my right arm right now. Darn old injuries.. If I knowed I would have lived this long I would have taken better care of myself.

When you consider WW2, we smoked thier butts. Our planes stationed in England. Lots of them guys didn't make it back. Rough. I am not sure we have them kind of people in our military today. I support them the best I can. I sent some items they could not get.

You do know seven million germans died after we "won" the war? The book is called "other losses". We had the german soldiers in TWE's.. (temporary wire enclosures) and most starved to death.. No more wars from that section of the world so I guess it worked.

War is hell. We are fighting a war now, just not a well publisized one. Whatever you do to a enemy to stop them from being not-so-nice is okay by me. Sometimes people just have to be educated by killing a few of thier close kinfolk I think. (we had 2 wars out of germany in fifty years) None since.

Back to the roof, One of our Nascar famous drivers backed off a roof one day, decided to go racing full time.. it was less dangerous. I forget which one.

By the way, my uncle said.. English women have bad teeth, mean attitudes, and ... One of the blokes in a tavern said.. " over paid.. over sexed, and Over here.." Ha.. my uncle was a card.. died of cancer.. He gave me a nazi SS skull ring he shot off a german. Someone stole it.(during a stint in a bike club) I am still mad. They wear it with White pride.. not knowing the truth of the war, the cause, the suffering it brought. They worship a ideal. Thier ideal, not the truth.

I got a buddy in the Klan, I asked him one day why he hates blacks.. he said, "cause my daddy and my grampa hates them.. I asked him if he knowed any? or ever had dinner with a negro? he said hell no. Hate prospers. Me being part Cherokee indian I pay attention.
Not all of "them" are like "most" of them. IN any race or culture.. Some of the germans were just caught up and followed the wrong person.

Hell, after a dozen beers, I am relaxed.. Wish ya the best.

David

Herb Helbig
04-26-2005, 06:02 AM
Thank you all for the good advice and great stories! Your wisdom generally agrees with what I've found locally and elsewhere on the Internet. At our ages (~70) we don't want to mess with this problem again!
Thanks again!

------------------

Norman Atkinson
04-26-2005, 08:30 AM
And Finally!

The British invented the ultimate deterrent in the air war- or so the story goes!

It was occupied Holland- the German occupiers built a dummy airfield complete with dummy aircraft, hangars, vehicles, buildings, the lot. Aircraft reconnaissance revealed what was going on- and the RAF waited for its completion, ready to pounce with all the hatred and determination over the years of conflict.

Then- a bomber was armed-took off and dropped a Wooden Bomb!

ibewgypsie
04-26-2005, 10:07 AM
Norman:
Now that story brightened up my day..

I think about 1951? We sent our German occupation forces Heavy artillery and tanks to Israel. We left our forces defenseless. I got a picture somewhere of a distant relative building a plywood tank over there.

David

madman
04-26-2005, 12:49 PM
John up here in Canada we have BRAIN FARTS on a daily basis. Wreaks havoc with all manner of things.