PDA

View Full Version : OT...USA Vs China why is we better?



MMurphy
04-28-2005, 11:01 PM
Folks...

I have read with interest many threads that more or less dealt with Chinese Vs. US manufacturing. With many posters indicating that the Chinese "advantage" was that their workers were paid at slave labor rates, etc., etc.

Here's my question. From reading posts here from experienced and skilled machinists/shop owners, it seems that, sometimes at least, labor doesn't seem to be a very large percentage of the cost to produce. If this proposition is at least sometimes true, how do they (China) beat us on price so effectively?

I have a vernier HG, made out of stainless, 24", put up in a nice wooden box. I checked it for accuracy using some borrowed webber gauge blocks. Turned out not too bad. This HG was shipped here from mainland China, sold to me (by ENCO) for just a little more than the raw stainless would cost from an online metal vendor. What gives? Can it really be just cheap, commie labor?

Thanks Mike

[This message has been edited by MMurphy (edited 04-28-2005).]

hoffman
04-28-2005, 11:13 PM
Rockefeller used to sell oil for cheaper than it cost to produce in order to drive the competition out of business and then buy the companies on the cheap. He had enough $$ take a short term loss for long term gains. He did the same with railroads by shipping so cheap and offering rebates that no one could compete. He then took hold of the transportation end of the deal and ran commuter trains out of business so they wouldn't compete with autos. Anti trust legislation was supposed to stop stuff like that.

Rockefeller was just a very crafty dude with a lot of $$$. The Chinese have the resources of a whole country...


------------------
Deep Sea Tool Salvage

3 Phase Lightbulb
04-28-2005, 11:27 PM
China has under-valued currency and we have over-valued currency.

$1.00 U.S is worth $1.00 U.S here, but it's worth a lot more in China.

-Adrian

dvideo
04-28-2005, 11:34 PM
Well you put your finger on it exactly. Labor is not the main cost. It is a factor. In China, workers on some production lines get $0.30 to $0.40 an hour. They work hard, and are capable - too. They might work 80+ hours a week. No lawyers - with corresponding lawyer economy - that even remotely compares to the US. Medical costs are not 20% of their GNP. Retirement costs? Are you kidding? Environmental costs? - You are kidding, right?

Is this starting to make sense?

Let's consider design software. Did they pay for that copy of M$ XP? Did you? Do they have the accounting infrastructure?

Perhaps this is some more of the puzzle.

If I want to build somthing there, I send an RFQ - with numbers - to one of many companies there. I get responses fast - usually overnight. Here, I have to beg and wheedle to get price information that is dependable or low enough. To get pricing information it is EASIER to get a Chinese quote - for a US product, then ask the US manufacturer to "meet competitive pricing" - for their own product. Rarely will a chinese supplier be more than two or three days in providing a quote. I also know what it cost to get stuff from there to Dallas. The US Port the imports come in on was built and subsidized with taxpayer $$. Was your company's loading dock built with taxpayer $$?

Taxes... If they pay taxes there, it is because they want to: Property, school, sales, income.... What taxes?

If I buy a Lithium Battery here - in volume, a certain type battery costs around 0.75. Same battery, both made in Japan, is $0.25 + shipping + duty - from HK. IE, about 0.28 all told - and that is air freight.

A container from HK here to Dallas - well, the container is owned by the Chinese Army (*essentially*). Sometimes it goest through the Chinese Intelligence Service managed Panama Canal. The container comes over on a shipping line - also owned by the Chinese Army. It is unloaded at a container port - built with US tax dollars. It gets on a railroad that was built with eminant domain (sp) right of way. Rides on a Flat car - leased from the US Army.....

The container goes to a Wal-Mart warehouse - perhaps they don't pay tax on any of that facility due to tax abatements.

So.... knowing this, would you want to compete with that system.....

FWIW - a 1% surface mount resistor there might be 0.000597 cents each. Here, they will be 10-30 times as much. Same resistors, same manufacturing location.. Getting US pricing quotes to be the same is almost a waste of time.

Plastic Molds - typically, for what I used to do, they could be 4 Weeks - $4K for some items. Here, the same could be $19K - 19 Weeks.

So where are the majority of mold designs done?

PCB industry - collapsed here. Look at PC motherboards sometime - would you want to build a finshed product that complex and sophisticated - then sell it for $45 retail?

We could talk about export financing, as well. Bottom line - the Chinese government is substantially more pro-business than the US government: by a substantial margin.

If you want to play in the US, it is a lot harder and you better be a lot smarter. Otherwise you are DEAD.

Our bleeding to offshore manufacturing isn't their fault. Chinese companies are not bringing products to the US - it is American companies doig it. I read the testimony of the ex-head of Tyco and it physically makes me ill. Tens if thousands of US employees cashed it in - and he think that $600M looted from Tyco - and the employees and stockholders - is OK. Worst than child molesting, in my opinion. Lots of hungry children out there due to this SOB.

So ask your questions away. Follow the money trail, as the smart dective says. Who lined their pockets along the way? We let it go - did nothing to stop it. So who is the real moron here?

jerry

QSIMDO
04-28-2005, 11:44 PM
A strong influence in Chinese business is the philosophy that they would rather have "a little from many than all from one."

Probably comes from living 3 per square foot.

[This message has been edited by QSIMDO (edited 04-28-2005).]

chief
04-29-2005, 05:16 AM
dvideo is absolutely right, here in Japan you are not going to buy chinese stuff unless
it is heavily taxed, they are not going to sell there own economy down the river to support corporate welfare systems like walmart.
I can go to Taiwan and get the latest machinerys handbook for $10 U.S. because they don't play the copywrite game.
From a technical standpoint they are reverse
engineering a lot of stuff so they they really can't
make upgrrades. (you are still buying the same lathe they manufactured ten years ago).
They also use inferior grade material.
No we are selling our standard of living down the tubes for corporate greed and
white trash wal-mart shoppers.

MMurphy
04-29-2005, 08:46 AM
Very thoughtful Posts!

Americans invented most of what is being imported back into this country. I've seen and touched "old American Iron", and there was nothing better in its time.

When did the goverment/corporate greed butts start selling us out? I don't think its the Chinese worker trying to get a little for themselves and loved ones who are to blame.

I want my $@#$^%# country back!! I feel very angry when I read and see the truth of what has been posted here. Sorry about the rant.

Jerry... your post really pins it down.

Now what in the hell can be done about it!?

lklb
04-29-2005, 10:40 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I want my $@#$^%# country back!! I feel very angry when I read and see the truth of what has been posted here........................................Now what in the hell can be done about it!?
..</font>


Absolutely nothing.The last century was "THE AMERICAN CENTURY",it's over................. Well , actually if you could convince everybody in America to work for 10 % less than their Slave waged counterparts,disband OSHA, and raise taxes on the rich(Laywers),then you have a shot at it!

Otherwise, Do as Randy Newman says," Drop the BIG ONE !" I.E. nuke the rest of the world. If we are the only ones left , we'll have nothing to fear from competition.We can raise our standard of living by just paying ourselves more...

plm
04-29-2005, 11:11 AM
dvideo,

“Our bleeding to offshore manufacturing isn't their fault. Chinese companies are not bringing products to the US - it is American companies doig it.”

How right you are!

Offshore manufacturing isn’t anything new, been going on for years and is fueled by American corporate mentality and the willingness of other nations to offer hard-to-ignore incentives to do business in their country. There is a whole new industry of brokers here in the US just itching to help your company navigate the red tape to help get your parts manufactured or factory built offshore. Yes, I’d say it is us that has the finger on the trigger of the gun pointed at our foot.


Hoffman,

Your comments about Rockefeller kind of reminded me about a particular company I worked for that is well known for their sleazy business tactics - buying business while incurring a loss is their main MO. But, what really chapped me and others that worked their, was their automatic filing of lawsuits against any startup competition for some sort of patent infringement. This tactic is certainly not new and is practiced by many deep-pocket corporations. Doesn’t matter if there is any merit to the infringement or not, the idea is to crush the little guy with the legal system – for a little guy to “prove” their innocence, as we all know, can be an expensive and time consuming ordeal.

Frankly, I think we are on a snowball ride to hell.

plm

jfsmith
04-29-2005, 11:47 AM
The problem as I see it, is that Americans want $40 an hour wages and a Cadillac STS for $10k. What we really have are companies that want to sell us goods at prices that meet the demand, low price. While our wages aren't going up, and many of us have to look at retirement costs. This is why Walmarts is doing so good, they get the products cheap from lots of places around the world, sell them to use cheap and they make money, lots of it.

What U.S. companies make TVs in America? How about home appliances? I used to be able to point to everything in my home and tell you they were made in the states. Now it's all made overseas or worse make by foreign companies here in the states.

Jerry

Paul Gauthier
04-29-2005, 12:07 PM
There is a way to get our country back, it's called "Revolution". It was used before and it will be used again. While chinese prices are cheap, as are the goods, the prices for stuff we must have are going up and will soon bankrupt some of us. When enough of us are broke and homeless, we will rebel, the polititions we now have who are getting fat in their seats of power will be thrown to the wolves and our country will once again be run "by the people for the people".

------------------
Paul G.

[This message has been edited by Paul Gauthier (edited 04-29-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Paul Gauthier (edited 04-29-2005).]

ibewgypsie
04-29-2005, 12:27 PM
Honda 750 K1 motorcycle, designed in the USA, New York to be exact.

Sold for $900-$1100 at a loss, to establish a marketplace. USA paid the net loss back to Honda to establish a marketplace in USA for foreign goods.

Looking at all the Japanese bikes that pass me on the roadway I'd say thier plan worked.

Our politicians cut our throats at every turn. Sure more jobs, at Mcdonalds, Hardees, floorsweep and nightwatchman.

Production jobs have left the country.

After all, It is just one shirt made in a Bangledesh bought at Wal-Mart? Right? Look around the USA for shirt manufacturers. I have seen NONE.

After all, USA produced cars and trucks are from USA produced parts? Wrong, look at the materiel list. I know of no vehicle made from 100% american parts.

After all, USA produced electronics are from USA produced parts? Wrong, look at the insides. I know of no computer made with 100% american electronics.

After all, USA produced products are from usually the cheapest source. We are cutting our own throats in addition to hiring our politicians to do it for us.

I could blame it all on saggy pants young people who have to use one hand to hold thier pants up as they walk? but my generation had long hair and hippies to contend with. I'd be pointing a wrongful finger.

So? why do you need a toy lathe or milling machine when you "know" you'll never get enough work to upscale into a production atmosphere that can compete with the USA-subsidized foreign competetion.

Sure, some big talk of big money to be made, but there sure is a lot of machineshop auctions for some reason.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/ibewgypsie/rollininmoney.jpg

lklb
04-29-2005, 12:39 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">There is a way to get our country back, it's called "Revolution"........we will rebel, the polititions we now have who are getting fat in their seats of power will be thrown to the wolves and our country will once again be run "by the people for the people".
------------------

</font>


Be Careful with talk like that.In this day of the "Patriot Act" and offshore prisons and warrantless arrests you will never succeed with a revolution until the Powers that be have finished milking this country dry, and are ready to move on.
To dwell to long on that subject invites the Feds to swat you like a fly, they have the power AND the time to do it.

Yankee1
04-29-2005, 12:46 PM
Hello everyone,
I understand that our country represents 85% of the world marketplace. If this is true then we are in the drivers seat if we
regulate the goods coming into our country.
Back in the 1950's I was in europe while serving in the army. I noticed that a Buick special that sold in the states for 2500.00 was being sold in Germany for 10,000.00.
When I asked why? I was told that it was being done to protect jobs there.Our laws are being made by politicians, we vote for them. So who's in the drivers seat?

AZSORT
04-29-2005, 12:49 PM
The only way this situation makes sense to me is that our stength is the U.S. dollar. We are trading our cheap printed paper for their cheap goods. Who would want to actually work if they could just print money and buy stuff from someone else? To be successful in America, you gotta be close to the money trough. You know "access to capital". That's why investment bankers and lawyers and CEO's etc do so well. A lot of "homeowners" with their ARM's are trying to do the same thing.

It's all pretty much insane to me. I think there was recently even a quote from Paul Volker where he warned that no society in history had ever lived beyond their means for very long. Sooner or later, the consequences of fiat currency will come to pass. I don't care how much "superpower military might", or how much "full faith and credit of the taxpayer" we've got, sooner or later - just like the dot.com insanity, this house of cards will fall.

It may be tough now being a practical, can-do, manufacturing type of person, trying to swim upstream against this system, but someday it will pay off.

dvideo
04-29-2005, 12:58 PM
Dave...

Are you allowed to post CheeseCake here?

Truth is - how many people even know that we are in really deep trouble? Not a lot......

If you look at the Big Exporters, then you have to look at Intel. How they have done it - is how the rest of us have to do it..

None of the off-shoring is a 'random' occurance. Managed, planned and executed quite effectively by our own gov't to begin with - and bright businessmen later. Just exactly how it happened.

--jr

J Tiers
04-29-2005, 12:58 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yankee1:
Hello everyone,
I understand that our country represents 85% of the world marketplace. If this is true then we are in the drivers seat if we
regulate the goods coming into our country.
</font>

1) We USED to be, but we aren't any more the market for 85% of anything. There is a thing called the EU, and Asia, and South America. And, folks who sell to us know that eventually they won't get paid....no more money here.....they just don't know if that is next year or the year after that. Meanwhile, they get paid to accomplish their political goals.....with our eager and willing help.

2) You CANNOT regulate the flow of goods anymore....no excess dutues or that sort of thing....you get sued in the international trade court (I forget the name) and lose....IF you are the USA.

Everyone else, including the EU, can of course do it no problem, though.

Did you just figure out that pretty much everyone else got tired of you and wants you silly americans to go broke so you will have to quit messing up the rest of the world?

sidneyt
04-29-2005, 01:50 PM
"Honda 750 K1 motorcycle, designed in the USA, New York to be exact.

Sold for $900-$1100 at a loss, to establish a marketplace. USA paid the net loss back to Honda to establish a marketplace in USA for foreign goods."

I don't remember them being priced that low, I thought they were more like $1500 when introduced. I knew someone that bought one the first year they were introduced and I had a chance to ride it. I do remember paying $800 for a new '71 Yamaha RD-350. It's hard to believe that Honda sold the 750 for only $100-300 more than the Yamaha.

Is all that money next to you in the photo being gathered for a child support payment? If so, why are you smiling?

[This message has been edited by sidneyt (edited 04-29-2005).]

dvideo
04-29-2005, 01:51 PM
I are a silly American. I don't have problems with people in other countries wanting to make things to sell here. I do have problems with subsidizing them to do it.

I am not aware of any "free trade" requirement to subsidize other country's imports. They can pay for their own rail cars, their own containers, foot the bill for the container terminal. etc... I don't need to pay their share. A container
terminal is expensive.

http://www.lbcti.com/t3/index.php?id=162
http://www.digitalgovernment.org/library/library/pdf/jula.pdf

Why do I need to pay tax to subsidize it? If you were in a port - West Coast city - how much cost has been spent "improving" the port facility - so that shoes can be imported even more cheaply. Why do that instead of improving the local medical health and child services? It's all a choice.

Why I am picking up more tax to pay for all of the paths to get import goods here? Trade is fine - if it goes both ways. But it's not.

Really, we are ones dumb enough to be importing 1/2 our gas. Can't blame others - that's part of the problem too.

--Jerry

ibewgypsie
04-29-2005, 02:53 PM
Sidney,
Yep, they sold that cheap, the 450 hondas sitting close by were more. I saw it in person. The first ones were "FAST" had a real 50hp. The 450 hondas were pretty quick too. I remember one warmed over 450 that rode with out pack of harleys and triumphs/BSA's.

The first ones had flared fenders like a old dream. I got a picture somewhere. That didn't last a year thou if I remember.

Money? what money. Must be play money cause everyone knows I don't have a job. I was a successful tattoo artist at one time. A successful bodyguard. A hired.. well we won't go into that. My tax return says Union electrician.

Notice no grey beard whiskers in that picture? Must've been before I married Carrol.

I keep waiting on our country to outsource the armaments we depend on. Next time we get into a pickle, they just turn off the
weapons, or worse turn them on us.

Child support? I plan on hiring a attorney and making her pay some. I got a plan. Tired of riding in the back seat with no control of who is around my child or how the money gets spent on vacations. Funny, I can't remember ever having a vacation.

I am a male-dominant-bully-bast@@d in my ex's words. I am fixing to reafirm that thought.

Nice of you to inquire thou.

David

Rustybolt
04-29-2005, 03:26 PM
The welding instructor at our local community college does consulting work for CAT. We got to talkiung the other night after class and the welding jobs that CAt sent to mexico because the union welders were making $24.00 an hour are going for $5.00 an hour down there. Only drawback is it takes 3 to 4 welders in mexico to do what one did up here. Not much of a savings if you ask me.
New hires at CAT for mig welders are starting at 15.00 an hour with no benefits.Seems to me they're trying to reproduce up here what they're trying to get done in Mexico.BTW there is also twice as much rework of work done in mexico than up here.
They're welding the front end loader buckets up here because they can't get them done right in Mexico.
My gut feeling is that if there is ever another big war those jobs are going to come back here real fast.

ibewgypsie
04-29-2005, 03:43 PM
Rusty, but who would do the jobs when they come back?

Do you want Fries with that? does not make a lathe turn.

David

Alistair Hosie
04-29-2005, 04:11 PM
Otherwise, Do as Randy Newman says," Drop the BIG ONE !" I.E. nuke the rest of the world. If we are the only ones left , we'll have nothing to fear from competition.


For goodness sake don't nuke Scotland til I get my shop finished http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gifAlistair

bob_s
04-29-2005, 04:37 PM
Dave:

Honda 750d circa 1974 sold for $2995 CDN, when the Canadian dollar was US$1.07.

regards
bob

MMurphy
04-29-2005, 04:56 PM
Alistair...

We'll not be "nukin" the cousins. (British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, Canada).

Unless we see a great big guy, wearin a skirt, tossing a caber (big stick). Probally a da@3@3@ed terrorist!

debequem
04-29-2005, 04:57 PM
I often cringe a little when these subjects come up. I will be up front and say that I have not researched this subject to a depth that qualifies me as an expert in the field. However, I am a skeptic by nature and there are some warning signs and bells that are tolling when I read these statements.

Historically, humanity has been constantly changing. We have had a number of recent revolutions such as the industrial revolution, the green revolution, and the technological revolution, which is still reshaping our world.

Each time there have been a large number of doomsday predictions and profits professing that the end of the world is coming. One day that prediction may turn out to be true, but given the historical record of these past predictions, any prediction that appears to come true will probably be a coincidence.

That being said, think back to all of those revolutions we have endured and examine what happened. Instead of collapsing socially, we ended up expanding. The net result was more jobs, better opportunities, and a higher standard of living as an average. Each revolution was predicted to send more people into unemployment, but that did not happen. The US GOP continues to grow.

The real issue is that we are very resistant to change as a species, yet change is the crux of our existence. When the landscape changes due to some revolution we must adapt to the change or perish. Most of us adapt, but some fail to make the transformation.

The thread of this discussion should cause us to be more introspective with ourselves and look for ways to adapt to the moving landscape. Each and every one of us are paid for the neuronal programming between our ears. If we fail to reinvest in that programming we will become obsolete relics of society and weigh like an anchor on the ship of progress. At some point that anchor will be cut loose and society will move on without us.

My point is, rather than trying to pull America backwards to fit your current neuronal programming we need to be reinventing ourselves to be effective elements in the transformation of society. All of us must continually reprogram ourselves and learning new things to keep pace with the changes around us.

If manufacturing shifts overseas, I can reasonably assure you that some new opportunity is opening on our shores. There is a lot of brain power here and we should be able to spot those opportunities and make the adjustments to ourselves to meet the new challenges.

Let’s not be known as the naysayer and doomsday poster carrier and resist the temptation to not change. Change is hard, but it is better than becoming a social fossil and looking back and saying I could have done this or that.

The world will not adapt to meet your abilities, so the only thing we can do is to adapt to the world.

Marv

BillH
04-29-2005, 05:01 PM
Just have to adapt to the evironment and go with it.

Rustybolt
04-29-2005, 05:50 PM
Dave. If it ever gets that bad I think it will be a sellers market for those skills. I just don't hink you or me will ever see it.(nuts)

MMurphy
04-29-2005, 05:53 PM
Marv...

Well spoken, thoughtful post. Let me change the scale of the discussion.

If a person decides to move in my house, without some agreement with me, I'll not
be adjusting to the change and reprogramming myself because it's the wave of the future.

The posts here that ring true to me are about our government colluding with certain business enities to their financial advantage; At the expense of members of my tribe, Americans.

Governments and certain types of individuals have always acted to benefit their own short term interest. And the result has always been detrimental to the society they feed on. Many states have collapsed to the great harm of the ordinary folk. Remember pre-war Germany. That disaster was not a result of historical or societal trends. It was @#^%^%% theft condoned and greased by special interest/governmental collusion.

I'm not a chauvanist (sic), but I gotta say this: In my opinion this is best country that has ever existed on this planet, no exceptions. And I think there's a few selling out the many. The American experiment with constitutional government is unique. I want desperately to hold on to it for a little longer.

I accept the coming of globalism. This internet thing is a harbinger of that future. We'll have to adapt. OK... I'll ride that wave with the stars of my flag in front of me. We got to take care of our own first.

No offense mean't to anyone

Mike

What I mean, I guess, is that we don't have to adapt/change to suit the members of a criminal enterprise. Machine shops don't always close because of global trends.


[This message has been edited by MMurphy (edited 04-29-2005).]

dvideo
04-29-2005, 06:39 PM
debequem

I can't agree with your observation on "if it goes, more will come here" Seems like wishful thinking. I wish you were right, too.

Hi resolution video means that traditional highly paid medical services can be off-shored. First, like MRI reading. That happened to me. Scan in Dallas, Read in India. My family doctor (22 years) in Richardson is from India, too. His job is under pressure from costs and offshoring, too. His son is in Tennessee. Just what is happening. Soon, average med reviews by a "doc in a bag" - data to India, office in the mall... someone gets rich fast...

Education... this is a big one. Projection screen HD and high speed communications - do you need teachers here for the critical disciplines? Math? - why not offshore and farm it out to India, too - or western Europe. This is going to happen in a big, big way. Quality? Are you NUTS? Ramanujan!!! Chandrasekhar!!!! These were the best there were!!!!

Baylor University now gets - 10-15K for a distance learning MBA. Why? Offshore to Europe. Or AUstralia. There are huge profits to make. 100 students - $150K of cost. Really, just have a server - with canned course (the books are canned, after all), and a collective grad student supporting 100-200 people.

FYI - I am working on my own MBA - distance learning with HW in Scottland. I know I need that international expertise - and my wife thinks (a) I look cute in a "dress" and (b) that Scottland is a sun drenched vacation mecca (she has pictures).

Want to get rich - seriously rich? here is one way.

The list of offshoring does not stop. The jobs don't get replaced. People just go hungry. Their credit gets trashed. A bankrupcy gets more of what they have (the rules are tightening - because people see what is coming). After a while, they go off the list of "unemployed".

You can live under a bridge and get your medical at Parkland. As the wise man said "lots of people are three paychecks away from living under a bridge".

In all of this, I do not mean to "be" negative - but I have to make a living, feed my family, and consder the landscape of employment. Turning a contract every three or four months gives me some insight to what is happening.

I absolutely don't begrudge folks from Mexico coming here and working, either. I see so many with solid family values doing the hardest and toughest work. I do blame the US gov't for being so cynical to exploit them. They take in their 15% of minimum wage for a service that the US Gov't never plans to render. Greed. Theft.

I can on go on... Lawyering is offshoring. IT is going.. Telecom - we have empty buildings for MILES that used to be telecom. Gone. Might raise chickens or mushrooms in them....

--jerry



[This message has been edited by dvideo (edited 04-29-2005).]

.RC.
04-29-2005, 06:43 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J Tiers:

2) You CANNOT regulate the flow of goods anymore....no excess dutues or that sort of thing....you get sued in the international trade court (I forget the name) and lose....IF you are the USA.

Everyone else, including the EU, can of course do it no problem, though.


</font>

Errr the US does put trade restrictions on imports as well...The industry I work in would love to send more product to the US but because of tariffs and other trade restrictions we can't...

plm
04-29-2005, 06:45 PM
You know, the one thing I think the US still excels at is its innovation and technology. But how can we capitalize on that in a better way?

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen or read about some new development that was eventually scrapped from going into production. The reasons vary for the decision but, in general, it was concluded that it just would not be worth it when other world players get involved.

Research, innovation and development are fine and dandy but, it doesn’t guarantee you’ll make a dime. Assuming there is a market for some new gizmo, the battle is going to be won or lost on the manufacturing floor.

Just an observation. . .

plm

nheng
04-29-2005, 06:50 PM
Just got back Tuesday morning from the US First Robotics nationals in Atlanta. My daughter wanted to visit a "fancy" mall so we visited the Lennox mall. Half of the high priced stores post no prices on their products and why should they? The clueless people shopping there wouldn't know the difference between China made and &lt;your favorite state name here&gt; made.

Chinese made, light weight womens blouse ... $129. Light weight women's jacket/shirt ... $229. The prices are set by the GREED of the importers and middlemen and supported by the clueless in this country.

I think the solution was mentioned earlier ... revolution. But if 80% have no clue, what are you going to revolt against and who is going to support you?

ibewgypsie
04-29-2005, 08:00 PM
BOB: List price of a 1969 cb750 was $1495, None sold for that if I remember correctly. $900 - 1100 was the actual selling prices with some kind of rebate going back to the dealer. This was about the time triumph installed a luggage rack on top of the gas tank. It'd de-cod someone in a accident. The triumph I looked at in 1970 was still there the last time I was in that building. Now a classic. Worth about 10x it's original asking price.


back to the post:

THE LIBERTY SHIPS, when Hitler saw the speed of which we produced them, he said well the war is lost if America gets into the war.

TODAY? We'd talk about building the ship, hire a group of engineers to talk about building a ship, then hire some bean counters to see how much building a ship would cost, then let the white-shirt and tie group discuss the cost and ways to reduce it, then give a work order to a manufacturer to hire people to build a ship, then check the osha 10 paperwork as they hire in the people to build a ship, then the union bosses step in to renegociate the working conditions of the ship building project and if thier kickbacks are sufficient enough to pay thier ex wives off. At that point somebody will look to see where they can purchase the materiels to build a ship while the workers lounge around waiting on something to do. Seriously overbudget before the first ship-builder strikes a arc or fires up a cutting torch the whole shebang goes back to a review of the white-shirt and tie crowd who discuss the logistics and why should they build a ship anyways. Perhaps they should build a airplane, then they lay off the workers and go back to the engineers.

SEE&lt; that is what is wrong with America. Too much talk and not enough "do"

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 04-29-2005).]

wierdscience
04-29-2005, 11:04 PM
Lots of finger pointing by the anti-business left in this country,nothing new it was around when Rockefeller was king and lives today.It's a simple matter of class warfare.

Now there is a difference,the companies are owned by stockholders,not by the CEO's.

Why are these people given jobs and demand the money they recieve? Because the stockholders think they will make them and extra .14 a share.It's INDIVIDUAL GREED not corporate greed that is the problem.

JPR
04-29-2005, 11:28 PM
A customer explained going to China for a needed part. The New York company that was building it had constant QC and delivery problems. They got a quote from a Chinese company, up front cost for the dies were a few thousand vs $100K that they paid the NY folks. The parts have been significantly better and consistant lead times at 20% of the cost.

Regarding the stock holders, maybe in part, but look at increase in income at the ceo level compared to the workers of the last 10-20 years.

Sorry, I saw it first hand at a company I nearly went to work for. The two original owners took home $600k together, the new owners are taking home 1.5 to 2 mil. To fix the finances, they got rid of most of the skilled people (some good friends in that group) and replaced them with under paid and under trained workers. It's the American business way.

wierdscience
04-29-2005, 11:48 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JPR:

Regarding the stock holders, maybe in part, but look at increase in income at the ceo level compared to the workers of the last 10-20 years.

</font>

Sorry,what I meant was CEO's are hired by the board of directors,the board is controlled by the stockholders.It is the stockholders responsiblity.

Mnay CEO's are frauds,they justifiy thier existence by doing whatever it takes to show a profit increase for the stockholders because they demand it.

Often times the quickest way to increase profits is to axe employee'ssince they are the SINGLE biggest expense in any operation.

The company won't live long,but it doesn't matter,by the time they file for bankrupcy the CEO will be long gone and the lucky stockhoders will be too.

You will not see any change for years to come in this system.The reason is that 40% of the populatin in this country recieves a check every month from the government in one form or another.

I do not want to see private accounts in social security,I do not want to see it stay the same.

I want to see it end!

nheng
04-30-2005, 12:01 PM
Ibewgypsie, Sorry buddy but you never even got close to building a ship ... skipped too many important things. You've gotta do an environmental impact study then a health and safety study to see if anyone could hurt themselves with it or while working on it. Then you need to review materials used in building the ship (ALL of it). Can't contain lead or other hazardous or flammable materials. Combustible products may not be stored on the ship. Need to find substitutes. Ship must meet ROHS, WEEE, OSHA and much more, with a little Kyoto on top for good measure. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Yankee1
04-30-2005, 12:28 PM
I understand that the World Trade Organization has a "anti dumping clause" wheras any product that is priced under the current value for that item in the nation
it is being sent to entitles that nation to place a tarrif on that said item. This is to protect its own manufacturers. Have not seen that clause enforced for a long while.
Also the WTO can settle a dispute with a 3/4
majority. So if that amount of votes are against our welfare then we are in trouble
and the fairness of the proceedure needs renegotiated. Someone is not on the ball.

spope14
04-30-2005, 05:56 PM
I just attended a day's worth of discussion on this subject at the regional manufacturers partnership. Some real interesting perspectives there, and believe it or not, the largest point of the perspectives were NOT that our own country is selling us down the river, NOR i9s China necessarily trying to dominate the world economy. This by some people I have the utmost respect for, and by many who are in fact beating Chinese companies at their own games.

A few major points. As tough as chinses companies seem to be on US companies, they are tougher on their own competitors within China itself. This is not a "team" chinese effort where all companies have banded together to beat the world. They undercut each other on the Chinese mainland, and the winner does sell to the world, no doubt. Povicences and cities in China do in fat compete against each other to see who can get the best businesses - kind of like the 80's and early 90's when the Southern US seemed to undercut the Northeast for economic development. In China though, when a business is down, they, as the presentors said, take no pity on their own "down" internal businesses, but they "eat their young". The very real fact is this. Chings shop competes aginst chows shop to beat them. They don't even care about undercuting Joes in the US. The first thing is to get domination in the Chinese marketplace - their home base. That some US company sends bids to Chings, Chows, and Joes is the matter of the US subcontractor.

The main goal of all this all said and done, comes in two statements. One mentioned "little from many rather than more from one" - mentioned above in another post, and the government of China keeping order by trying to keep busy populace - call it the Tianiamen square principal. The people are busy, educated, and employed, they will not revolt.

Another point. US business, even with the restrictions we place on ourelves, did not put emphasis on improving the mass production engine, and in fact placed this low on the scale. China took that by th "little from many"...attitude - keep many busy. However, China is still not adept at extremly quick turn around on parts, does not necessarily respect dedlines as a guideline, do not do R&D or short run that efficiently, and do not communicate well enough yet because of the "half A world away" idea" to do quick engineering chnges.

Thre was also the idea tht Chinses infrastructure and the way businesses are st up, that US ompanies of smaller stature are having to put their top drawer people right in the Chinese mainland right at th companies ull time to keep things right, and many middle size and smaller companies tht took the plunge to China for sub contracting are pulling it back because it is about a two year minimum investment to make any profit, and this has to be highly supervised to keep it that minimum.

Perhaps the most hopeful thing was that there are many smaller ompanies in the Us that have taken on the China challenge and found their niche that the Chinese will not even touch, and these companies are expanding in the US at astounding rates, and actually selling TO china more than even in the US. I met four owners who's main profit come from selling to mainland China, not the US market.

The hope lies in changing, and as the Marines say - adapt, improvise, and overcome. This is a continuous process, but can be done, for the US was at this point in the mid 50's when the biggest industrial AND consumer boom in the country occured.

As for the slave labor rates. I used to believe this, an in fact, right after Tianiamen square, there was a lot of truth to this as the protestors were put to work in the steel mills and such, but this was not mentioned at the symposium this time around. The thing the Chinese face is this. The Chinses industrial effort is now about a decade matured, and the people who work in this are looking for the "US" advantage - meaning they are now looking for the wages, some of the bennies, and the material gains of good salaries. They see what they are making, and now want it. This reminds me of the Johnny Cash song "I own a 57,58,59...caddilac". The old slave labor idea was also non competitive, and produced crap goods, thus the change.

The Chinese also put a huge emphasis on engineering education and manufacturing education. This IS a weakness of our gov't in the US. One we are sadly addressing by cutting the funding all the more.

The "steel price" issue was also addressed. There are still severe management issues in China. They trained workers and engineers quite well, but left management off the map. Thus, the old style "buy for a year or two of resources" rather than "just in time" is still the method. I thought for th longest time the Chinese were trying to corner the market and drive the price up, but it was the old "here's your yearly budget - go spend it now' approach. The bigget bump occured at a time when all the Chinese companies saw prices inch up, and thus decided they needed to stock pile to guard against this - reactionary, and drove the world up, and still drives it up. One person told me later that his company is contacting Chinses companies quietly and offering - successfully - to buy steel of all types for pennies on the original price, but he is only doing this for "non-cert" materials. He is getting steel for far less than ten years back including shipping. This was not at th symposium but in the after talk I have had with some of these people. I may try this with the school budget next year - try a $300.00 initial attempt - I have approval to try this out, and a company in the area willing to underwrite a loss if i take it.

I left with a very different perspective from this meeting. we still have a big way to go, but it can be done, and is being done. Had this just been politicians or hired economic development consultants, I would have had my doubts, but this was the people making the products, bitching the bitch, and making the profit. Probably 30 to 40 different companies represented - there should have been more to hear this.

There was so much more to hear and note, and I will be going to two more of these symposiums, and hopefully going to China in early August if all works right.

It is a scary and frightening time, but also very hopeful.



[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 04-30-2005).]

Flash319
04-30-2005, 06:44 PM
The world economy is going to crash not just the USA. The economy is built on nothing sustainable. Our grandfathers started it and they had the life not us. Oil will run out, the trees are going and everything that you buy at Walmart gets thrown in the garbage in a years time. The economy is built on nothing now. We produce stuff to throw out. Consumers that have been consuming to long. No balance. Building cars that take twice the energy to produce then the 60's, then polluting more is not a sustainable future. I blame Mr. H Ford and all for this problem.

hoffman
04-30-2005, 06:54 PM
Can anyone explain all the products that are identical yet badged differently coming out of China?

Take for instance the 920 lathe. It's the same machine whether you get it from HF, Jet, Griz, Enco, yadda yadda... Same castings and design. I've noticed this with several Chinese machines. The one Craftsman sells is almost the same model that Harbour Freight sells.

This leads me to think that a lot of Chinese stuff is consortium built or that Chinese companies share designs.

Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this.

------------------
Deep Sea Tool Salvage

wierdscience
05-01-2005, 05:32 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hoffman:
Can anyone explain all the products that are identical yet badged differently coming out of China?

Take for instance the 920 lathe. It's the same machine whether you get it from HF, Jet, Griz, Enco, yadda yadda... Same castings and design. I've noticed this with several Chinese machines. The one Craftsman sells is almost the same model that Harbour Freight sells.

This leads me to think that a lot of Chinese stuff is consortium built or that Chinese companies share designs.

Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this.

</font>
Well that falls down to the mfgs in Chiwan.Certain companies built tools for everybody,Rexon for example builds lots of woodworking tools for Grizzly,Sears etc etc.But they also make them to spec.My Grizzly stuff has SAE fasterns instead of metric for example.

So basically they have companies that are industry whores just like we do.Kinda like Delco,they make crap for everybody and seldom does any of it last very long http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

spope14
05-01-2005, 07:19 PM
The "badge" idea goes the same for China and the US. For example, a Kenmore product is actually a Whirlpool, or at times may actually have parts from Maytag. Being one that runs a product (cars, dryers, washers) forever, I do repairs on them on a regular basis for myself and friends. Most Kenmore products are whirlpool.

Foods: Most of your store products like canned green beans, cake mixes, soups are brand products repackaged. The proof of the pudding, make a complaint about greem beans store brand through the 800 number, and eventually you get routed to green giant or delmonte.

The Ford Ranger and the Mazda pick-up are the same animal, but for the trim and dash in some cases. Even the dash has similiarities, such as the 1997, where I needed a panel "bezel" and got it out of a 1997 mazda.

But it goes even more to just plain "parts". Whoever supplies the base parts, to whom actually builds the product, th base castings are probably sold by "Hows" casting company to "hungs' assembly and final machining company. Nothing new about this, look at the Craftsmen lathe and the Southbend and Atlas lathes.

hate to say it, but business has not changed that much except for the country of orgin now a days.

This is where the US can capitalize. Not so much in th finished product, but in the supply of parts that may be unique, and require differences in engineering between purchasing companies.

bobbybeef
05-01-2005, 08:23 PM
Hullo All,
Enjoying this thread. This country is a free trader by force of circumstances. We actively pursue free trade agreements.
Some governments actively support some sections of their economy with subsidies. In this way the taxes paid by ,say efficient machinists, can be redirected into the pockets of,say inefficient graingrowers. The real solution is to get the subsidies off the table and lets see how everybody stacks up then.
Before you dismiss this as so much economic claptrap look at the prices paid,the relative value of all the dollars yours as well as ours and wonder why yours is so low.
Europe has a similar problem with subsidies but they have a history of socialism which skews their outlook.
No brief is held for the Asian powers but they have problems to solve and growing means to work thru them.
As one who uses outdated machinery design for a hobby as much as fixing things around the farm a cheap lathe that does the job in less time than it takes to drive 100 km to town is the go.
I have always liked the British Myford lathes,but with the basic price inflated by the exchange rate and freight added,there is no comparison with an Asian model.
Now about those Honda motorcycles. Yes I guess they are different to a Harley ,but Harleys still there.
While we are on about foreign takeovers,may I draw your attention to the Swedish Volvo,the British Jaguar,the Japanese Madza all good Ford products.Parts for each are made all over the world including Little Old US of A.Profit flows are comming your way soon. Watch this space.
The US is active in all the world marketplaces and we are active competitors. We would like to see more level playing fields but I guess the market is not a game.
We look to the USA,as world leaders, to get its economic house in order so that the world may survive. Remember if the US economy gets a cold, the rest of us get double pneumonia.
There, hows that for a good rant, the job is in your hands.Vote at the next election.Its your responsibility not an option.
Hang in there buddy.
Regards,
Bobby.

Yankee1
05-03-2005, 11:09 PM
Congress voted us into the “World Trade Organization” in 1994 knowing that it was making a very big transfer of its power to a foreign bureaucracy.
Since then, we have been forced to accept WTO rulings dealing with our tax
Laws, steel tariffs, oil imports, cotton subsidies, and banana purchases.
Fortunately, every five years including this year, Congress can vote us out of the WTO. Contact your Congressman and both Senators.
Urge them to get us out !
Visit “www.thenewamerican.com “ or call !-800-JBS-USA1

Yankee1
05-03-2005, 11:11 PM
Congress voted us into the “World Trade Organization” in 1994 knowing that it was making a very big transfer of its power to a foreign bureaucracy.
Since then, we have been forced to accept WTO rulings dealing with our tax
Laws, steel tariffs, oil imports, cotton subsidies, and banana purchases.
Fortunately, every five years including this year, Congress can vote us out of the WTO. Contact your Congressman and both Senators.
Urge them to get us out !
Visit “www.thenewamerican.com “ or call !-800-JBS-USA1

kevinro
05-05-2005, 03:07 PM
We tend to try and point fingers at corporations and claim they are the cause of all our ill's. This is usually done sitting in a chair that was made in the Phillipines, using a keyboard built in Tawian, and in theory talking about milling machines that are usually built in China.

I have little in the way of credibility to sit and belly ache about how manufacturing has moved offshore. I helped put it there, as did many of you.

Your standard of living has increased in a large part due to the globalization of manufacturing. Our productivity as a country has also increased based on the availability of inexpensive technologies from China, Tawain, etc.

Kevin

ronsmith100
05-05-2005, 03:35 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kevinro:
We tend to try and point fingers at corporations and claim they are the cause of all our ill's. This is usually done sitting in a chair that was made in the Phillipines, using a keyboard built in Tawian, and in theory talking about milling machines that are usually built in China.

I have little in the way of credibility to sit and belly ache about how manufacturing has moved offshore. I helped put it there, as did many of you.

Your standard of living has increased in a large part due to the globalization of manufacturing. Our productivity as a country has also increased based on the availability of inexpensive technologies from China, Tawain, etc.

Kevin

</font>

Kevin, it is a truth what you say.. The United States of America was once the cheap labor, cheap power, cheap natural resource nation. You can't blame anyone for our loss of manufacturing to the offshore nations... its just their time in history.
BUT
The machinist trade will live in this country as long as there is a country. Manufacturing will never vanish completely. At least it has never vanished in any other nation on earth. We will always need machinists for local manufacturing, maintenance, repair and infrastructure. The problem is too many people see the jobs going offshore as a reason to stay away from a career in machine tools. The few students that come through my program at Cerritos College will be sitting pretty when the nation discovers that the gray haired ones have retired… within ten years.

tattoomike68
05-05-2005, 04:13 PM
20+ years ago the chicken littles were crying "the japs are taking all our jobs"

now its china.

I am not scared.

dvideo
05-05-2005, 04:13 PM
Guys...

I have to disagree. The problem is not trade, per se. It is the trading system we have now. It is WalMart telling a supplier to lay off all their workforce and to move manufacturing to China. Or Walmart will simply contract it out and put them out of business. Etch-a-Sketch.

It is Home Depot saying "that's a nice product we have been buying from you - we'll just send the product to China and have it copied - then sent here. Never mind you have a patent." Guilty - HD lost.

It is the 25,000 jobs being cut in Plano to be sent to India. Jobs that the "company" is getting US tax dollars for contracts for.

It is Tax dollars paid for container ports, rail cars, tax "abatments", and subsidies to bring in Imports - that a US Manufacturer won't get to compete on an even playing field. It is NOT an even playing field.

It is a Big Bank shielding $4 billion in profits by bogus (aka - IRS rules) lease agreements in Europe and elsewhere - not only paying no tax, but also getting a check for $100 Million + back. So not only did you subsidize a capital outsource - but you paid them to do it.

It is US manufacturers - being SUBSIDIZED to offshore jobs and manufacturing.

It is ADVERSE operating conditions to large businesses operating here that will KILL THEM and MILLIONS OF JOBS, Too - if things don't change.

Cathering Boo referenced estimates 16 million jobs offshoring in the next few years. A large part is becuase they are subsidized and pushed offshore.

So - when you have no job - have medical bills that 50% of your income - what will be the attitude then?

In a level playing field, US can try to compete. The big problem is not "China" stacking doing something to cause us a problem - they aren't. It is our OWN GUYS hell bent on (a) profiting or (b) sending our jobs off shore.

Just how many examples do you want? Just how personal does it need to get. There is a vast movement going on now. Still working? For how long? Who is paying your income.....?

--jerry

FYI.... Japan - perhaps MITI - played on a reasonably level playing field. The did and do. Sony plants here. Honda and Nissan plants here. They understand working together.

The China thing is different. It isn't Chinese companies per se importing here, and they certainly don't build plants here to hire workers.

Boeing, AMD, and Intel seem to be the big exporters to there - from here. Just look at the trade ratios, too....

[This message has been edited by dvideo (edited 05-05-2005).]

ronsmith100
05-05-2005, 04:31 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dvideo:
Guys...

FYI.... Japan - perhaps MITI - played on a reasonably level playing field. </font>

Not to beat a dead horse but I think we will be fine.
However, regarding the quote above I do have a suggested book for you to read:

Rising Sun by Michael Crichton
Well documented and demonstrably accurate assessment of the Japanese business mentality circa 1980s.

Ron

dvideo
05-05-2005, 04:48 PM
I read it.

Books aside, I see plants that hire people. We have our share of RedNecks, too. We're allowed.

What is happening now is different - quite different - than what happened with our Japanese trade relationships.

--jr

"we'll be fine....". We're dead, eventually. That is not fine, I think. In between now and then, it is going to GET A LOT HARDER IN THE US... A LOT HARDER.

For my kids looking for entry level jobs.... Triple whammy. Illegal immigrant workers everywhere: that's bottom end job openings. Add outsourcing of jobs - drying up opportunities. Exploding Medical Costs - sucking up income and killing companies. Medical costs now are 500% of what they were 10 years ago to me. Up to 20% of income. I do pretty well, though.. There are many whose Med Ins and costs are 50% or more of income. The Med care is not better - in fact it is worse.

These things are accelerating - It is just numbers. I don't think they are ok. I don't see us la-tee-daing along as if they are.

Just look at the numbers - look a the trends. If you feed your family, then you have to think about how this affects your situation.

....... to look at it different, what do you see changing - so that we would "be fine"?

--jr

[This message has been edited by dvideo (edited 05-05-2005).]

ronsmith100
05-05-2005, 06:17 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dvideo:

....... to look at it different, what do you see changing - so that we would "be fine"?

--jr

[This message has been edited by dvideo (edited 05-05-2005).]</font>
What will change to make things fine? Your question has sent me running to the book shelf hoping to find that ol' Copi logic book.

England
Spain
Germany
France
Italy
Sweden

Are they all on welfare?
Are they lying in the streets homeless?
Are they receiving government funded health care? How do they do it?


we will not be what we used to be but we WILL BE FINE!

LizardKing
11-19-2006, 08:24 AM
we will not be what we used to be but we WILL BE FINE!

Sure, just as long as you don't mind living like a Chinaman does now, but they will be living better than they do now.
You have a fine attitude for an ostrich, just leave your butt out in the wind and bury your head.
Can anyone guess what happens next?
*grin*
The Chinese are COMMUNIST!
Do you understand what that means?
They may be exporting stuff to us and allowing us to build factories there, but they are COMMUNIST and the US is still their enemy.
Their generals write books about how they will control the WHOLE world by 2050.
Commit suicide if you want, but leave me and mine out of it.

regards,
TheLiz

Evan
11-19-2006, 08:31 AM
This topic is a year and 1/2 old. There isn't any point in dredging up old topics such as this. Some of the people in the discussion aren't even hanging out here anymore.

Millman
11-19-2006, 08:44 AM
Doesn't surprise me that YOU would want to censor free opinions. Why would you do stupid **** like that? Oh, yeah, you are the communist censor of free thought.

Ken_Shea
11-19-2006, 11:00 PM
Evan,,
So many post, so little content.

Since I have little to no desire in returning to this childish posting crap, I will end my short lived experience with HSM, by asking a question;

An Evan Quote:
Some of the people in the discussion aren't even hanging out here anymore.

My question;
Well,.. my, I wonder why that is Evan?

Perhaps you should get your own private forum, one where you post all the content and also the only one permitted to reply. Then you would be the "Big Man" in total control, that should help your problem.

Regards and good day !
Ken

Old enough to know better, also old enough to discern when someone is a jack ass.

Todd Tolhurst
11-19-2006, 11:04 PM
Must be something in the water.

Evan
11-19-2006, 11:40 PM
Probably the chemtrails.

I can see resurrecting an old topic if it has value in the context of the purpose of this board, namely discussing machining. But bringing up an old off topic post regarding world politics doesn't serve any good purpose, especially one guaranteed to produce disagreements.

It smacks of trollish behaviour.

Ed Tipton
11-20-2006, 07:12 AM
I believe thew original question was, "why are we better?". I'm not so sure we are better. We used to be better, and we have the ability to be better again, but I don't think it will ever happen. Perhaps at the eleventh hour, some "hero" will fall out of the sky, land on us, and lead us back to where we used to be, but I doubt it. The politicians, lobbyists, CEO's, legislators, economists, professors, and technocrats have all sold us down the river, and we followed them willingly. We voted for them, and we turned the other way even as they stuck it to us, and then voted the same ba$tards back into the same position, or worse yet promoted them
For this country, it is later now than it's ever been before, and we, the public, had better wake up and smell the coffee, before it boils dry

There is no shortage of experts, the trick is knowing which one to listen to.:mad:

madman
11-20-2006, 07:41 AM
Well i am not sure . I do know once again i am layed of as are thousands of other kjourney men machinists tool and die workers. Xmas is coming and theres no work around and it really sucks.

Mcgyver
11-20-2006, 08:22 AM
Well i am not sure . I do know once again i am layed of as are thousands of other kjourney men machinists tool and die workers. Xmas is coming and theres no work around and it really sucks.

I am sorry to hear this Mike, it saddens me as I see manufacturing businesses all day long and and the pain is not over. Everyone is still trying to outsource more and more offshore. It doesn't matter say that labor is only 4% of cost of goods, the third world has cost advantages in occupational health and safety, human rights, environmental laws, health care & pensions (or lack thereof) artificially supported currencies, protectionists markets to our goods and companies, etc

Sadly as a nation (I include CDN & USA in the same boat on this one) we're reaping what we've sown. Everyone has their pet target of blame, unions, government, management etc but the real culprit it's what society in general wanted. We wanted cupboards full of cheap running shows and two cars and snowmobile in the driveway in return for tightening lug nuts, not sustainable, but we got what we wanted. yet despite so many suffering Madmans plight and all the evidence that something is broken, we've a socialist in serious contention to lead one of our two main political parties!

I don't think we do anything better anymore, if you look at the crap in walmart aisles, better has simply come to mean cheaper, more efficient. In addition to the above list of unfair advantages, many of these third world plants are new whereas ours are old and in need of capex.

As I see it the only real option we have, other than continuing to loose the war, is to impose a 50% or higher duty on these countries until their environment of business (above list) equates. strange words from a die hard capitalist, but I don't see an option, we're in a war but haven't woken up to the fact yet. Our trading relationships seem one sided and without manufacturing what are we? a nation of burger flippers and investment bankers

madman, I hope you find something soon

lazlo
11-20-2006, 12:12 PM
the companies are owned by stockholders,not by the CEO's.

Why are these people given jobs and demand the money they recieve? Because the stockholders think they will make them and extra .14 a share.

The shareholders don't determine the CEO's salary, the Board of Directors do. Most of the Board of Directors are executives of other companies. This is why you end up with CEO's paid outrageous salaries while the company is posting record losses.

meadeblows
01-04-2007, 12:16 AM
All of this is so true, but why is unemployment at historical lows? What is keeping USA employed?

dp
01-04-2007, 12:24 AM
China is buying all our debt - investing in it, actually. They're making a killing on what we owe in interest. I think if they stop then our economy will tank. They're thinking about it - they just need a way out of what is owed them. It's an interesting aliance.

wierdscience
01-04-2007, 12:33 AM
China is buying all our debt - investing in it, actually. They're making a killing on what we owe in interest. I think if they stop then our economy will tank. They're thinking about it - they just need a way out of what is owed them. It's an interesting aliance.

Add to this the fact that China can't feed itself it gets even more interesting.
Thier currency is also de-valued which gives them another advantage.