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  • ted crivea
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 19

    Idiot

    Where do idiots come from . I was chucking up a 80lb part in a 4jaw when the new plant mgh passed by and saw me use a cheater bar . He told me that I was going to damage the chuck, ( This chuck is over 30 years old) The bar is 18" Could not think of any smart to say to him that he would understand.
  • DR
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2003
    • 4783

    #2
    Hmmmm.......

    Good question.

    Have you noticed how short they make the handles on chuck wrenchs that come with Buck chucks? Do you suppose they don't intend you to use excessive force in tightening chucks?

    Comment

    • vinito
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2004
      • 606

      #3
      Sounds like PMS (Plant Manager Syndrome). Here's a tip you should always keep handy when dealing with the new breed of power tripping plant managers. They aren't really that new a breed but they seem to be everywhere anymore. They have four facets that can either work against you or be used to manipulate them depending on the situation: 1) the time clock is top priority 2) production numbers are top priority 3) having everything clean & shiny is top priority and 4) safety is top priority (which is often touted as the top priority but, in reality, just isn't). Anyway, the tip: it would behoove you when you find yourself at odds with the omnipotent manager to find a way to bring the discussion back to safety. Once you start thinking on this vein, you might be surprised how often this helps to nudge him into seeing things a bit more from your perspective.

      It's not just a manipulative tactic, it makes sense. The true fact is, his "top priority" is money - he looks good when costs go down and profits go up. He saw a cheater bar on a chuck and in his mind he saw an invoice for a new chuck in his future. What he didn't see is what you saw - a big hunk of spinning projectile bouncing around in the machine before flying free and possibly toward flesh and bone, which results in even more company checks being written. Point it out. What did he think you were doing, just straining your back for fun? Are you just tired of that 30-year-old chuck and want a new one? You are there working as best you can with what they give you to work with and trying to do a good job, not sabotaging your company and means of employment. For some reason these guys assume the latter.

      If he's like the ones I've crossed paths with over the years, he constantly acts quickly on knee-jerk reactions all the time. He likes working that way. If you force him to think about something first and maybe even change his mind, you are making him work in a way he doesn't like. Since you make him think every time he comes down on you for something, eventually he will just pass on to others & leave you alone (a new knee-jerk reaction).

      Bring it back to "Safety". Sometimes they are just too hard-headed and this doesn't work, but it's worth a shot.

      Comment

      • Paul Alciatore
        Senior Member
        • May 2002
        • 17480

        #4
        I have two old chucks, 3 and 4 jaw, that came with my lathe. Both show damage to the jaws. The scroll on the 3 jaw is so bad that it is over 0.013 out at some diameters and is not consistent at any diameter. One of the jaws on the four jaw has broken teeth. Overtightening? I suspect it is responsible for at lease some of this.

        I won't argue with the need for safety. I preach it. But, before using a 18" cheater on a chuck, I would try other techniques first. Besides, how safe is it if the cheater breaks a tooth on the jaw and weakens the others and the part is not being held as tight as you think.

        I suspect that there is a reason why the chuck wrenches are the size they are. In any case, I would do no more than doubling the lever arm, not extending it by a factor of 4 to 6.

        Paul A.
        Paul A.​
        s​
        Golden Triangle, SE Texas

        And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
        You will find that it has discrete steps.

        Comment

        • vinito
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2004
          • 606

          #5
          Yea Paul. I kind of jump on the "bad manager" bandwagon since it's kind of a sore spot with me. It would be a good idea to review what you're doing first and make sure it's reasonable before firing any artillery.

          If it's a big chuck, the 18" might only be double the length of the arm on the original key, and of course the bigger internal parts take more force before they yeild. Also, if the job's been done that way for years, find out if anyone remembers the reason (evidence). If ten machinists over the past twenty years did the same job without a cheater and had no problems before you decided it needs one, you may be overkilling it unless you're compensating for a new problem.
          You may just have a good feel for what you are doing too and feel that any less clamping is asking for problems. An 80 lb. flying frisbee with your name on it (or somebody else's) is not a trivial thing. Keep an open mind and use your best judgement.

          Comment

          • 3 Phase Lightbulb

            #6
            If I saw someone using a cheater bar on my lathe, I would flip out too. In fact, I might ask them to hand over their car keys and the cheater bar so I can go torque down their spark plugs.

            -Adrian

            Comment

            • JCHannum
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2001
              • 10091

              #7
              The first question should be "How big is the four jaw?"

              The second is "What is the workpiece?"

              Once that information is in hand, the setup's adequacy can be determined. Generally speaking, overtightening a chuck will not make the set up any more secure. If a workpiece cannot be held with normal installation force, other means should be employed.

              And, yes, use of a cheater will damage a chuck.

              [This message has been edited by JCHannum (edited 07-30-2005).]
              Jim H.

              Comment

              • egpace
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2004
                • 398

                #8
                To ponder...
                Consider the length of the wrench handle & the design criteria for choosing that length. If you were a manufacturer and had a product that needed to be tightened, would you make the wrench long enough that it could damage the product in normal usage? With warranties on most products I would think not. My Atlas lathe came with a 3-jaw chuck that had sprung jaws and a chuck key tee handle that was badly bent. My GUESS is that the maximum torque that the chuck should have ever seen was the leverage of twice the length of one side of the tee handle, assuming a 100% safety factor. In other words, if the length of 1/2 the tee were 6", 12" would be the max length allowable before damage would have begun to occur to the chuck. A book like "Designing for Human Factors" would be used as a source of how much normal force a person could generate to the wrench (96th? percentile average)

                Keep in mind this is all a GUESS on my part. The length decision may have been..." I guess I'll make it about yo long"

                Does any of this make sense?

                Ed

                PS If you are reading this & your friends call you "Bigfoot" this response is not for you!
                Ed Pacenka

                Comment

                • CCWKen
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2003
                  • 8567

                  #9
                  Chucks don't get to be 30 years old by some idiot misusing them. You'd be on the outside looking in if I saw it in my shop.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hang on a minute here, go back and read the ORIGINAL posting.
                    Chuck " IS " 30 yr old - WAY past it's use by date for industry.
                    HOW many other DI%# HEADS have abused the chuck in this period and the chuck sure aint ACCURATE ( true ) no more.
                    Busted teeth on the jaws, dunno, possibly the three jaws have got ALL their teeth cracked, they are 30 yrs old.
                    SAFETY, first priority for operator, at 80 pounds in the aforsaid article, you jokers ever seen what 80 pounds of loose metal can do to you when it pops outa da' jaws. Go try it out before you lot start to condem this fella or others for usin' a cheater bar. After you've had 80 lbs chase you around the workshop, bet you use a cheater bar from then on.
                    TED, go tell the jumped-up twat where to go next time he comes around bugging you with his brand of BULLS*%T or better still, get him to stand in front of the article and try to catch it when it gets loose

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Radish you have your head in the ground. It wasnt his lathe to abuse,he should have asked someone what would be the best way to go about it,if they say use a cheater on it he can always say "he" told me to do it that way.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The plant manager was right. You shouldn't need to do that and you just shouldn't do it.

                        If the chuck is used correctly and doesn't work then it should be replaced, not abused.

                        Comment

                        • cuemaker
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 1913

                          #13
                          I am not a machinest by any stretch but it would seem like common sense to me that if you had to use a cheater bar to get the chuck to hold something, then there is a better way to hold that something.

                          Also I agree with the statements that its not "his" machinery to abuse. Serveral people who I respect say that using a cheater bar could be abuse, so I go with thier statement.

                          Comment

                          • mochinist
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 2424

                            #14
                            [QUOTE]Originally posted by radish1us:
                            [B]Hang on a minute here, go back and read the ORIGINAL posting.
                            Chuck " IS " 30 yr old - WAY past it's use by date for industry.
                            HOW many other DI%# HEADS have abused the chuck in this period and the chuck sure aint ACCURATE ( true ) no more.
                            Busted teeth on the jaws, dunno, possibly the three jaws have got ALL their teeth cracked, they are 30 yrs old.[/QOUTE]

                            You should go back and read the original post, he said it was a four jaw chuck. A 30 year old 4 jaw chuck should work just as good as a brand new chuck if it has been taken care of.

                            Another thing, if you cant safely hold the part, you need to improvise, that is what machinist are paid to do. I have made soft jaws with bolt holes in them for toe clamps to help hold tricky parts in the jaws.

                            If you need to use a cheater on your chuck or vice, your cutting forces are most likely to high, take a lighter cut.

                            Also an 80lb part really isn't that big, but you probably shouldn't be spinning it at speeds that it is gonna fly out of there. If it is a short piece that is has a pretty big diameter you will need to slow it down anyways to get the surface speed right, and if it is a long piece with a smaller diameter you should have a tailstock stuck in the end of it or a steady rest. With that setup the cheater bar is not necessary and if I saw you using it I would show you and radish head the door.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK, point taken, not his lathe to abuse, fair enough comment.
                              SAFETY, now every time he has to do some object that weighs a bit over a couple of pounds, he has to go ask somebody if he can use a cheater bar on a an ole' hunk-a-junk chuck that should have gone to the knackers yard years ago.

                              One would have to wonder how long you would have a job, if you had to ASK that, every time you were going to use that ole' hunk-a-junk.

                              Next question, to all who say dont use da' bar, have YOU ever had a bit that size come out and start chasing YOU around the floor.
                              Answer, definately NOT.

                              Gimme dat' cheater bar any day.

                              Another question, is a chuck a dispensable, replaceable item, or is it an absolutely permanent fixture on the lathe????
                              This machine is being used in an industrial situation, parts have to be replaced on a periodic basis for EVERYBODYS safety.

                              I'll still stand by the statement, tell the plant manager to stand in front of the chuck and CATCH the bit as it flys out of the jaws, you'll soon be told to -USE'a DA' BAR, if he's still alive.

                              Comment

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