PDA

View Full Version : Gas prices up and up and up and up and up and up



Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 04:28 PM
here in the UK Gasoline (petrol) is nearly $10 a gallon.And you Americans think you've got it bad http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gifAlistair

Evan
08-10-2005, 04:30 PM
Gee, that's really rough Alistair. How far is it to the next village where you live? Here it is about 100km.

Evan
08-10-2005, 04:38 PM
Hmm. According to today's news it looks like about £1.00 per litre. That works out to $6.76 US per US gallon.

IOWOLF
08-10-2005, 04:39 PM
Yea but you get 5 quarts to the gal.

Evan
08-10-2005, 04:42 PM
We haven't had gallons here for decades.

J Tiers
08-10-2005, 05:03 PM
Most of what you folks pay seems to be taxes...

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 05:06 PM
Theres just under 5 litres to a gallon so that makes it as today the dollar pound is alsmost two dollars to the pound almost ten dollars a gallon.perhaps the USA gallon is less than 5 litres but its still alot more than you guys pay alot more.Alistair

Mike Burdick
08-10-2005, 05:16 PM
Alistair,

How much duty is incorporated into each litre of petrol in the UK?

IOWOLF
08-10-2005, 05:20 PM
True,Sad but true.

They say we will never see much below the $2.00 P/G again.

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 05:21 PM
Mike my understanding is it is around 85% possibly more same with booze I dont drink but my car does so I am hit with gas prices worse whiskey duty is around 92%tax I believe these figures are from memory so dont quote me Alistair

aboard_epsilon
08-10-2005, 05:25 PM
I converted my car to lpg over 5 years ago.
I cant imagine paying that price for fuel again.....I would not be going anywhere-anytime
Would you believe that the ford f150 truck is the best selling car in the USA.
This truck has an engine of 4.2 ltrs capacity......
What a guzzler !!!!
Talk about NOT saving the planet.
Think you guys in the USA should now be thinking Honda 1.1 Civic now .
All the best....mark

J Tiers
08-10-2005, 05:55 PM
F-150? Feh.....

I drive a truck. The engine is 2.2l It is "EPA stickered" at 29 mpg, which means I can get 26 in real conditions.

There's Hondas that are stickered at only 33mpg. But they are sedans, move people and a tiny scrap of luggage....that's it.

That Honda hybrid is a fake... it gets good mileage, but only on teh highway. electric motor is 10 HP, used only as a booster. Engine stays on when stopped at light.

The Prius is pretty good, but fits nothing in it but people... fits tall people, admittedly. Engine goes off at stoplights...good.

Then you get to the "bubble" or "egg" cars, the ones you "wear". Typical non-functional "environmentally friendly" product. I'd rather ride a motorcycle, or drive a Citroen 2CV, an Isetta, or a Messerschmidt 3-wheel.

If everyone who drives an F-150 or similar(but doesn't need to) would just buy a truck like mine instead, that would double the average gas mileage.....

And if the freakin idiots who just gotta drive a "Hummer" or "H2" would scrap those bastards, we'd solve BOTH the fuel price issue AND the price of steel.......

Then, we start with the over-the-road trucks..... it's called a railroad, folks, it is highly fuel efficient, and it worked for 100 years before everyone got in such a hurry that they had to have direct-to-door overnight or 2 day delivery.

BTW, a litre is a bit over 1/3 US gallon, about 3.6 litres to the gallon.

AFAIK, 2 years ago UK was paying 25% for gas, 75% in taxes. If taxes are fixed amount, the percentage is probably lower now. If they are proportional, like sales tax (VAT), it is likely close to the same percentages.

rsr911
08-10-2005, 05:58 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by aboard_epsilon:
....Would you believe that the ford f150 truck is the best selling car in the USA.
This truck has an engine of 4.2 ltrs capacity......
What a guzzler !!!!
Talk about NOT saving the planet.
Think you guys in the USA should now be thinking Honda 1.1 Civic now .
All the best....mark</font>


4.2 would be the little engine, the F150 goes up to 5.4L and the F250 goes up to 6.8L. The older trucks had a 460" (7.5L) available. Heck my Ranger has a 4.0L in it. Great trucks but that's why I'm looking into an MC for fair weather commuting.

------------------
-Christian D. Sokolowski

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 06:03 PM
I have been to the states many many times and always was impressed by the quality of your vehicles they always were very nice.WE had the Americans here in Dunoon ( Naval base)on the holy loch for many years (thirty I believe), and when they left I bought a brand new washing machine and tumble drier from them I have them to this day at least fifiteen years and used every day you don't get that longevity from british goods well done I take my hat off to you guys you mmake fine products.Alistair

IOWOLF
08-10-2005, 06:06 PM
I think hummers should have a luxury tax put on them, they are only a status symbol.

Wirecutter
08-10-2005, 06:06 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alistair Hosie:
Theres just under 5 litres to a gallon so that makes it as today the dollar pound is alsmost two dollars to the pound almost ten dollars a gallon.perhaps the USA gallon is less than 5 litres but its still alot more than you guys pay alot more.Alistair</font>

I know you pay more, and I know you're on the Metric System (another flaming thread). But why are UK gallons different from US? I get 4.5 liter per UK gallon - is this correct?

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Hummers is that like when sombody FARTS RIGHT.thats so unfair some of us are born martyrs to flatulence http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Alistair

IOWOLF
08-10-2005, 06:25 PM
Its the guys that don't make noise when they fart, There not virgins.

BTW I make alot of noise.

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 06:26 PM
heres one for the non virgins.No gas required
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MR-FARTE R-FART-MACHINE-REMOTE-CONTROL-FART-SOUNDS_W0QQitemZ5604156646QQcategoryZ60824QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MR-FARTER-FART-MACHINE-REMOTE-CONTROL-FART-SOUNDS_W0QQitemZ5604156646QQcategoryZ60824QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[This message has been edited by Alistair Hosie (edited 08-10-2005).]

vinito
08-10-2005, 07:20 PM
"you don't get that longevity from british goods well done I take my hat off to you guys you make fine products"

Thanks for the compliment (though I never made any washing machines). It would be tough to find an appliance here today that would last fifteen years though. I guess a lot has changed in the past fifteen years. There might be a couple "last stands" left, but they are hard to tell from the rest. Most of our stores are filled with appliances that might as well have a "Sold in the USA" sticker on them. They like to hide that fact. Even then, I'm sure our U.S. designers still get paid when their own Made in the USA stuff only lasts one year. Some companies just don't care - about quality anyway. They still care about making money http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//rolleyes.gif

A friend of mine told me this week that his washing mashine broke down. Third one in four years - three different makes. There must be a warranty self-destruct timer hidden in there somewhere.

p.s. Sorry to hear about your petrol costs. I'd have to set up a bunk at work if gas was that high here.

p.p.s. Search eBay China and get your gas imported. I hear shipping is cheap from there. Claim it's only drinking water and it just smells funny since it's from China http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

[This message has been edited by vinito (edited 08-10-2005).]

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2005, 07:26 PM
strangely enough thats the way they are here I bought a brand new fridge freezer within a year the door seals were perishing plastic snapping here and there little plastic clips abour a quarter of an inch holding on front door covers all break as easy as anything cost the earth to replace so I always got the impression Americans did not take crap from any of their stores and the companies bent over backwards to please Alistair

vinito
08-10-2005, 07:33 PM
We woudn't take crap if there was a choice. Used to be stores couldn't compete with the next guy if A's stuff broke and B's stuff lasts. Now they're all corporations and the only competition is for the stockholder's dollar. The bottom line must go down so the profit margin goes up. The end result is crap for non-stockholders (you & me).

Of course I'm generalizing, but it's becoming more generally true each year.

andy_b
08-10-2005, 08:33 PM
i didn't note if anyone mentioned it, but a US gallon is something like 3.8 litres.

oh, i usually drive my wife's VW Passat TDI diesel. right now i'm getting about 34 mpg. but when i need to haul something, the big F350 with the 6.8l V10 comes out. i'm lucky to get 13 mpg (unless i have a real good tailwind and no big hills). of course, it is about the safest vehice in the US short of a semi. mainly because if i hit your Civic Hybrid you'll know it but i won't.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

andy b.

Michael Az
08-10-2005, 08:57 PM
Speaking of appliances, about five years ago I went to town and bought a new washer, dryer, cookstove and fridge. They are all Maytag and haven't had any trouble with any of them yet. Did I get lucky or is Maytag still building good appliances?
Michael

CCWKen
08-10-2005, 09:38 PM
The problem is not just with gasoline. It's trickling down to all distillates. Stuff like paint thinner, naptha, kerosene, diesel or anything made from oil has about DOUBLED since last year.

I still think the whole mess is just a scam on the consumer.

speedy
08-10-2005, 10:09 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alistair Hosie:
here in the UK Gasoline (petrol) is nearly $10 a gallon.And you Americans think you've got it bad http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gifAlistair</font>

Call GWB and tell him to invade Iraq and secure the oil supplies, that should sort out the problem http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Ken

bob308
08-10-2005, 10:42 PM
it is not just any thing made from oil. it is things that a truck has brought too. heating oil has already gone up and this is aug. we have 3 months before the heating season starts.

BillH
08-10-2005, 10:45 PM
I think only 40% of a barrel of oil goes into gasoline. Not to mention the artifical bottlenecks at the gasoline refineries to drive up demand and cost.

rsr911
08-10-2005, 11:39 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CCWKen:
The problem is not just with gasoline. It's trickling down to all distillates. Stuff like paint thinner, naptha, kerosene, diesel or anything made from oil has about DOUBLED since last year.

I still think the whole mess is just a scam on the consumer.</font>

Try working in the chemical/polymer industry. I've given my customers 3 price increases this year alone due to increases I received. We get it both ways, higher costs for petroleum based chemicals and polymers as well as increased transportation costs. It's getting ridiculous.



------------------
-Christian D. Sokolowski

NAMPeters
08-10-2005, 11:43 PM
Beans Alistair, eat more beans. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Mike Burdick
08-10-2005, 11:43 PM
http://www.bized.ac.uk/current/mind/2003_4/061003_1.gif
Source: American Petroleum Institute
________________________________


[This message has been edited by Mike Burdick (edited 08-10-2005).]

wierdscience
08-11-2005, 12:03 AM
Ever see how much oil goes into plastics or power production?It's not just cars and trucks.
Anyway,it's not a real shortage,it's the fear of one and speculation that's driving prices higher.Hope the speculators get burned bad,that will teach them,well at least until next time.

J Tiers
08-11-2005, 12:05 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Michael Az:
Speaking of appliances, about five years ago I went to town and bought a new washer, dryer, cookstove and fridge. They are all Maytag and haven't had any trouble with any of them yet. Did I get lucky or is Maytag still building good appliances?
Michael</font>

No, And Whirlpool wants to buy Maytag....

Maytag dryer, 4 new igniters and one new belt in 6 years. Old Kenmore dryer worked 20+ years, no problems until everything went at once.... motor, drum bearings, timer, etc.

Maytag is now a basic American junk brand.

wierdscience
08-11-2005, 12:30 AM
I got a Mytag fridge,POS,everytime lightning even farts near by the defrost timer blows and in the're infinate wisdom Maytag made it so the timer runs the whole she bang.Never,ever again will I buy Maytag.

Evan
08-11-2005, 01:32 AM
Mike,

Those yields can be varied over a wide range depending on what they want to make and depending on the input crude.

vmil3
08-11-2005, 01:51 AM
An Imperial Gallon is 160 oz, a US gallon is 128 oz. An Imperial gallon is 4.54 litres, a US gallon is 3.78 litres

------------------
Doug

Doc Nickel
08-11-2005, 02:18 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Ever see how much oil goes into plastics or power production?</font>

-Plastics I don't know about, but power production? Very little. As I recall, less than 3% of the US electrical generating capacity is oil based, and of that, it's almost all heavy residuals, the same near-tar gunk that's also used as merchant marine bunkers.

Over 50% of the US electrical power comes from coal, with nuclear and hydroelectric supplying very roughly 20% each. Of the remaining ten percent or so, trickles here and there are natural gas, heavy oils, solar, wind farm, and other not-as-conventional sources.

Right about 68% of US oil consumption goes to transportation. About one-third of that is personal cars and trucks, the rest is "industrial" transport- semitrucks, locomotives, commerical box vans, shipping, busses and public transport, etc.

Doc.

John Stevenson
08-11-2005, 04:35 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by speedy:
Call GWB and tell him to invade Iraq and secure the oil supplies, that should sort out the problem http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Ken</font>


I think we are just waiting on that while they find a better excuse than last time.

Orrin
08-11-2005, 11:20 AM
Quote:
"when they left I bought a brand new washing machine and tumble drier from them I have them to this day at least fifiteen years and used every day you don't get that longevity from british goods well done I take my hat off to you guys you mmake fine products.Alistair"

We still have our first clothes dryer, purchased in 1965. We used old-fashioned cotton diapers when raising our two boys. That's a lot of dryer time. They worked their way through school on farms and needed a fresh change of clothes every day. More dryer time.

We have similar tales to tell about our other appliances, but the dryer holds our longevity record.

BTW, I'm one of those sub sailors who made regular trips to Holy Loch; was too busy making repairs back in the engineering spaces to make it into Dunoon very often, tho. I thought Dunoon was a charming little village; would like to visit it again, some day.

Orrin

madman
08-11-2005, 11:53 AM
I just topped up my 1984 ford xlt xtra cab f250 with the 460 engine. It cost me $21 but then i use propane at .41 cents a litre. Not bad.

lynnl
08-11-2005, 03:30 PM
(Re Appliance longevity)
My parents are both dead now, but I still maintain the homeplace. Right now, sitting on the enclosed back porch is the first (of only two) refrigerator they ever owned. A Hotpoint, has been running continuously, since they bought it in 1954 or 5.. I don't know what it cost, but I think they got their money's worth out of it.

What are the odds of getting a refridg nowadays that'll last 50 years?

Alistair Hosie
08-11-2005, 05:10 PM
you can bet it will never happen pal never.Alistair

Rex
08-11-2005, 05:45 PM
I filled up my F350 the other day - $78.47.

I heard one of the experts on the radio yesterday say that gas was just as likely to go back to $1.50 as it is to go to $3.00 by this time next year. Could go either way. Not sure I believe that, although I want to. But adjusted for inflation, compared to what it cost us 20 years ago, gasoline in America is a bargain.

Rustybolt
08-11-2005, 05:57 PM
All oil refineries are designed around the type of crude oil they will be processing. Saudi light sweet, North Sea, California heavy,etc.If the ref. is going to process more than one type of crude it has to add more infrastructure. I believe that the newest refinery north of mexico is the plant in Newfundland Canada that was built in the early 70s. The cost of oil is directly proportinal to the demand, not the greed of the oil companies.

For the record my 5.2 ltr dodge ram pickup gets 21.5 mpg on the hwy cruising at 65. In town is another story, but that's what we have the minivan for.

John Stevenson
08-11-2005, 06:05 PM
Checked the truck from going to London last night to collect that swing grinder.
Mainly all motorway work and dual carriagways, clocked up 33mpg.
This in a Peugeot Boxer van 3-1/4 ton gross with a 2.5 litre turbo diesel.

John s.

[Edit] Brain fart this is the straight engine not the turbo, Gerts car has the turbo diesel.

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 08-11-2005).]

Alistair Hosie
08-11-2005, 06:33 PM
Thats pretty good John!
I would say Rusty that
5.2 litres is more what we in Uk would expect on a largish comercial vehicle not a privately owned caror truck 21.5 is about half what we normally get in a family (normal not luxury size)saloon here in the U.KAlistair
For the record my 5.2 ltr dodge ram pickup gets 21.5 mpg on the hwy cruising at 65. In town is another story, but that's what we have the minivan for.

wierdscience
08-11-2005, 08:58 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doc Nickel:
-Plastics I don't know about, but power production? Very little. As I recall, less than 3% of the US electrical generating capacity is oil based, and of that, it's almost all heavy residuals, the same near-tar gunk that's also used as merchant marine bunkers.

Over 50% of the US electrical power comes from coal, with nuclear and hydroelectric supplying very roughly 20% each. Of the remaining ten percent or so, trickles here and there are natural gas, heavy oils, solar, wind farm, and other not-as-conventional sources.

Right about 68% of US oil consumption goes to transportation. About one-third of that is personal cars and trucks, the rest is "industrial" transport- semitrucks, locomotives, commerical box vans, shipping, busses and public transport, etc.

Doc.</font>

Petroleum for non fuel use makes up 39% of the total 20.6 million barrels per day,(8.03million barrels)of that 69%(5.54million)are used for things like plastics and lubricating products.Leaving 2.49 million barrels going for power generation.Which leaves it at 3.22% for power.

That doesn't sound like much,but when you consider the amount of plastics that hit the landfill never to be seen again it is a waste .The fuel cycle should be completed and the trash incenerated to produce power.Since the first clean air regs where passed into law incenerator technology has been at a stand still in this country(30 years+).We have proven ways to scrub stack emissons and new ones under development there is no reason for burying garbage or dumping it in the oceans any longer other than emotionally driven politics put forth by the green nazis.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 08-11-2005).]

vinito
08-11-2005, 10:05 PM
"But adjusted for inflation, compared to what it cost us 20 years ago, gasoline in America is a bargain."

OK for you. 20 years ago I worked at a taco stand, and adjusting for inflation I think I'm making about the same wage now as a machinist as I was bending tacos back then.

Should have majored in law.

oops. I guess that was a little more than 20 years ago, but that's even worse.

[This message has been edited by vinito (edited 08-11-2005).]

andy_b
08-11-2005, 10:42 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Stevenson:
Checked the truck from going to London last night to collect that swing grinder.
Mainly all motorway work and dual carriagways, clocked up 33mpg.

John s.</font>

is that a British gallon or a US gallon?
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

i'd make a joke something to the effect that 33mpBg = 13mpUSg, sort of like how $1 US= $27.50 CA. the only problem being that at present the US and Canadian dollar are closing in on being equal. my yearly fishing trip to Canada next week is going to be more expensive than usual.

andy b.

J Tiers
08-11-2005, 11:01 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Hummers is that like when sombody FARTS RIGHT</font>

To buy one of those status symbols, you need to be farting thru silk, ..... The gas is the least of your problems.

I'm not much on some of the enviro-freaks.... but I have very little sympathy for people whose Hummer gets a nasty bumper sticker stuck to it.... like the "I'm one of the people ruining the earth" or the like...

Last few years the US car makers seem to have thought it was 1968 again... everything has a big engine, and gets crummy mileage....

How much will those "vehicles" be worth when gas is $4 HERE?

Mine will burn gas, gasohol, anything up to E85, but its not rated for pure alky, like in Brazil.... I heard E85 was $1.65 a gallon.......

KENZ
08-11-2005, 11:17 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by speedy:
Call GWB and tell him to invade Iraq and secure the oil supplies, that should sort out the problem
Ken


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Stevenson:

I think we are just waiting on that while they find a better excuse than last time.</font>

Gee, Dick Cheney is the former CEO of, Halliburton, a Fortune 500 company and a leader in the energy sector. Tell me he still doesn't have ties to that company. I know, I know, I've read where if he exersizes his stock option he'll donate the profits to charity. I think we all have a charity that is going to need some donations soon.

Then there's good ole 'W' who's got his hand in the energy cookie jar too.

You know I can't for the life of me figure out why oil keeps going up?????!!!!!!!

Sorry, I don't mean to make this a political debate. It's just an opinion.

wierdscience
08-11-2005, 11:31 PM
No,that's not right,gas started going up over the $1.29/gallon back about 95',course Al Bore had lots of stock on Occidental Petroleum too http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//rolleyes.gif

Seriously,people who bring up these conspiracy theories haven't a clue about the laws of supply and demand.We have plenty of oil right here in the states,but we haven't built a new refinery in 30 years.The reason for this is objection by ecotwits and NIMBY'S who most times are the very people claiming conspiracy.

KENZ
08-11-2005, 11:57 PM
You don't think the the 2 people running this powerful nation can sway the market. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
I just wanted to take a jab at Bush.

In all seriousness I realize that it is supply and demand. This country uses and enormous amout of energy - mainly petroleum based. China is now becoming more industrialized and requiring a larger dependence on oil as well. It is only going to get worse as I'm sure that in the coming years other countries will start to develop more.

We'll all just have do deal with it and find ways to conserve where we can.

ben78
08-11-2005, 11:58 PM
Here in Aussieland I am currently paying $5.90usd per us gal, that's ok though - not as bad as the UK allies, but then I guess, distances for me to get anywhere are 4 times greater than for them... If we didn't have to pay all the stupid govt duties, and GST on the duties then I think we'd actually be paying around 53% of that so, $3.15 gal, hrmmm bet that would cost the govt too much to implement...


I wish these crackpots that claim you can run cars on water with $25 gizmo's from the hardware store would get their systems into actual running cars, I'd buy one...

[This message has been edited by ben78 (edited 08-11-2005).]

speedy
08-12-2005, 04:02 AM
Of late fuel seems to be increasing on a weekly basis, I think it is now NZ$1.45/litre, that is NZ$6.52/gallon and the oil companies have ONLY made a profit of something in the order of 60%. Not to mention the guvments increased tax take; they steal about 50-60% of the pump price, so every price increase serves them well also!!. Maybe they can build us better roads for those rare times that we can afford to use the car?? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
I think I will be using my wheel chair more often http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
I just can`t wait for all the follow on increases http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif
Ken

John Stevenson
08-12-2005, 04:53 AM
I would image that taking things on the whole between the UK and the US that things are pretty equal.

We do have very high fuel costs but it's a far smaller country so we don't have to travel dso far.
OTOHin the US you have to travel greater distances and so use the same amount of fuel on a cost basic.

Not dickslapping at all but just pointing a point out.
I can go on Ebay and buy a machine or heavy part for collection and unless it's in the far north of Scotland, near Alistair,then I know it's less than a day to do the return trip to collect.

Again unless I go to Corwall or Scotland I know I can do the return trip on one tank of fuel. That trip to collect the grinder the other night took me two thirds the distance I'm prepared to travel for a machine or part, that journey took 7 hours with stops and loading.

Machines are a problem with size and weight but if you can get them on a pallet there are many services that do a 2 day delivery to anywhere in the UK for £70.00
They even put these bid on one pallet delivery on an Ebay buy it now.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PALLET-DELIVERY-OR-COLLECTION-BY-PALLETLINE_W0QQitemZ6200626860

Anyone with an account can get these down to about £40 per pallet, less than the cost of the fuel needed for the trip.

John S.

JPR
08-12-2005, 08:25 AM
John S, you bring up a good point about the final cost being equal.

On a different note, part of the problem with Americans buying smaller cars is that the number one best seller is a truck. Two years ago when we were shopping, I wanted a 49 mpg TDI beetle, but my wife would not hear of it. How is the driver of the beetle going to fair with the driver of the pick up who is drunk or turned around yelling at the kids in the back? So we joined the rest of the sheep and bought a 4.6L four door pick up. In our case the wife works one mile from the house, so fuel mileage was less of concern than mass and size.

dvideo
08-12-2005, 12:27 PM
Madman...

Aside from us all being envious over $21 fillups - and we are...... you can pat yourself on the back for foresight... :&gt;

Can you tell us your thinking and how you did it? Any more risk driving? Gas and biodiesel are two very good ideas now....

I got my bike fixed back up. You can tell SWMBO about how wise you are by comparison! I'm biking for a while... !

--jr

dvideo
08-12-2005, 12:37 PM
People in CA sometimes have no clue about what is happening outside the state. In South Texas, the refineries are running full out. A lot of these plants are really old. Working on them is increasingly dangerous. When you run them full out, maintainence can't help but suffer. So the folks there find themselves in more risk and danger "for the good of the country". They really are fighting their own war against production and taking casualties.

My daughter lives in Galveston. She HEARS it when a portion of Texas City blows up and people get killed.

Those workers don't get enough recognition for the risks they run "for the good of the country". These plants are getting REALLY OLD. Some people here are also paying more than $10 a gallon for cheap fuel.

-jr

Norman Atkinson
08-12-2005, 03:05 PM
Some of us on this side of the pond might disagree! We live in Europe- and if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Our Merc regularly runs on a 500 mile round trip and does 1000 mile one's into the Land of Opprtunity! So, it's 2.7 litres and and an Estate and it's a diesel. It will better 50 mpg on a long run.

For those who want LPG- you can't use it if you go under the Channel.

Going Sous La Manche, does show just how much we Brits get ripped off.

Just been topping up my little 903cc Seat Marbella with Sans Plomb. Cost- just over a Euro per litre.

OK- sunshine- let's unfurl the flag of our Turkish saint- St George- and sing Balls to Mr Banglestein.

I'm still awash with Spanish beer at .6 of a Euro a litre.

Hic!

Norman

flatv8
08-12-2005, 10:13 PM
Hand up those of you that still believe the government's line that inflation is only running at 2% a year.

speedy
08-13-2005, 12:54 AM
I would believe anything that an honest politician told me; I can`t say for sure if I could say the same for a dishonest one http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Ken

matador
08-13-2005, 03:01 AM
Geez,Ken,don't you know an honest politician is a contradiction in terms? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif.

------------------
Hans

speedy
08-13-2005, 04:03 AM
Not a bad oxymoron aye? or a paradox? Howzit hanging Hans??
Enjoy the next 5 weeks of electioneering!! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif
Cowpatties from the female polies, bull**** from the males.
All we need is a truck load of Whitakers chocolate " good honest chocolate!" that should take care of them http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
I`m saving up for when petrol hits NZ$2.00 a litre, then I`ll buy up large, duh!! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
Ken



[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 08-13-2005).]

C9
08-13-2005, 12:12 PM
Every time there's an increase, the oil companies whine that crude is so costly they can't help it.
And when crude does go up, it's reflected at the pumps in a very short time.
Takes quite a while for the pump price to go down after crude has gone down.

I note as well the tremendous increase in profits the oil companies post in the quarters after a price hike.

If America starts driving very small, very economical cars, gas prices will go up due to the lesser demand.

Very much like what L.A.'s DWP (Department of Water & Power) did near the end of a long drought.
They asked people to conserve on water use and the people did.
Then the water dept. whined that they weren't making enough money due to conservation.
And like you'd expect, L.A. boosted the water price.
Just until the drought was over they said.
The price never came down.

Sorta like that San Francisco tax hike to help rebuild after the World Series earthquake.
Far as I know, that tax is still in place.

Kinda makes a guy cynical after a while....



[This message has been edited by C9 (edited 08-13-2005).]

John Stevenson
08-13-2005, 12:23 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C9:

Sorta like that San Francisco tax hike to help rebuild after the World Series earthquake.
</font>

How can it be a World Series? we weren't asked to compete.
If it had been a true World Series Germany would have trod on France again to get there.

John S.



[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 08-13-2005).]

C9
08-13-2005, 02:27 PM
"How can it be a World Series? we weren't asked to compete."

I don't think we were invited to the World Series of Cricket. 8^)

Good observation and a good point.

We have lots of interesting names for events here in the US.

The one that cracks me up is the way NHRA (National Hot Rod Association) names their monthly events with a Nationals title.

Used to be the Nationals were the end of year big race that crowned the champs in their respective classes.

Now, every race has the word Nationals in it.

Rustybolt
08-13-2005, 03:19 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C9:
Every time there's an increase, the oil companies whine that crude is so costly they can't help it.
And when crude does go up, it's reflected at the pumps in a very short time.
Takes quite a while for the pump price to go down after crude has gone down.

I note as well the tremendous increase in profits the oil companies post in the quarters after a price hike.

If America starts driving very small, very economical cars, gas prices will go up due to the lesser demand.

Very much like what L.A.'s DWP (Department of Water & Power) did near the end of a long drought.
They asked people to conserve on water use and the people did.
Then the water dept. whined that they weren't making enough money due to conservation.
And like you'd expect, L.A. boosted the water price.
Just until the drought was over they said.
The price never came down.

Sorta like that San Francisco tax hike to help rebuild after the World Series earthquake.
Far as I know, that tax is still in place.

Kinda makes a guy cynical after a while....

[This message has been edited by C9 (edited 08-13-2005).]</font>

"A thing is worth what that thing will bring" Adam Smith

The market place(supply and demand) controlls the price, not oil companies. If you want the price to go down, use less of it. If you want the price to go up, use more.
All economics are behavior based.

decoy91288
08-14-2005, 12:26 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rustybolt:
"A thing is worth what that thing will bring" Adam Smith

The market place(supply and demand) controlls the price, not oil companies. If you want the price to go down, use less of it. If you want the price to go up, use more.
All economics are behavior based.

</font>

This doesnt quite cover it -- the oil companies have not invested in building refineries by choice. Why should they? their profits go up far out of proportion by their limiting the supply. It is not just the consumers at fault here -- the suppliers have a huge economic interest in limiting supply. Note OPEC's crafty manipulation in the 70's, now note US oil interests' effective limiting of production capacity. Result the same - obscene profit, screw the consumer.

Chester
08-14-2005, 05:09 PM
Shot from the archives:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/261755109/422534169SqzxeK#

[This message has been edited by Chester (edited 08-14-2005).]

jack d
08-14-2005, 05:50 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/jackydee/gasprices.gif

jack

Your Old Dog
08-14-2005, 06:18 PM
Is there any country on the face of Earth that can do more with a gallon of fuel than America?

We use more fuel because we are more productive. Of course we use more energy! You can't do the kinds of things this country does by living in a mud hut, growing your own food and riding horses to work.

We are a country choking on democracy right now. When the libs kids face $30.00 per gallon fuel they might let us build a new refinery or two. Either that or, the rest of the country might just tell them all to jump in the lake and see that it gets done anyway.

I'm so fed up with conspiracy stories. They really sound pretty juvenile to me. "They got a car that will run all year on a teaspoon of gas but the automakers killed the guy who invented it!" Basic fact of physics, you can't get much more out of something then what you put into it. That means if you want to move 3000 pounds down the road you're gonna have to expend so much energy. It can be gas, diesel, coal or whatever but you still have to expend that much energy. There is no free ride in physics that I know of. And as for the leadership of this country. Ever stop to think that maybe the present "regime" as the assholes call them are simply trying to do what many of us believe they are, leading a nation? Why are all US President's out to screw us? We did pretty damn well with all these guys trying to screw us. We still speak english and not japanese or german.

I drive a V8 4x4 Chevy. I don't want to drive a damn kiddy car. I don't like driving with my ass 3 inches off the road. As for the Hummer? What the hell differance does it make, there aren't enough of them to make a differance and won't likely be in this life time because of their cost.

As for a reason to take out Iraq? I only needed to hear he wanted us dead and I'll make the first move and then sleep better at night. Thanks GWB and the rest of the regime for trying to take out these assholes. I reject the notion of living with machine guns in our airports, hospitals and public streets. Finish off the damn threat and we won't have to.

I encourage you support not only the troops but your country as well. That goes for you limeys too. Freedom works as good there as it does here. And congratulations to the limeys for shoving it up the ass of the bombers in record breaking time. Great job!

rant off............

[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 08-14-2005).]

Rich Carlstedt
08-16-2005, 01:40 AM
If you think Gas prices are only based on the US refineries output, then you may not be aware of the Saudi or Mexican refineries. Did you know we bring gasoline in,as well as foreign crude ? Probably not, based on your theories of persecution.
Did you know it's a "World Market", not a down home conspiricey! (A hint, watch the price of "Crude", "Gold", and the "Dollar"- When the dollar drops ,as it has recently, Gold and Oil go up, amazing !.....get it?)
Did you know that China has 20 million cars now and they project to have 200 million of them in another 10 to 15 years. Where do you think that oil will come from ?
Did you know we Americans pay 25 % of the gas price in taxes?
Did you know that the Europeans pay 60 to 70 % in taxes?

If you tax gas more, you WILL get smaller cars,and of course you will get 10% unenployment (Like Germany and France) and slower economy's, but what the heck we can afford it ...Right!
And if you want immediate relief, tell the Government to drop the taxes, after all , the moneyis not used for roads, but for unemployment checks and pork barrel items. ( Name a new highway built with the funds?..answer...none)

bob308
08-16-2005, 08:09 AM
well your old dog are you and i the only ones that can see the problem. and also the only ones that want to fight them on their ground not here in the streets with cops that will do nothing. we have oil in mt. and ak. but the libs dont want us to drill there.

pete913
08-16-2005, 08:27 AM
Well, any true conservative knows that Iraq had nothing to do with oil right? LOL. Anyway, there are no "libs" controlling either the white house or congress right now, so what's your next excuse?

J Tiers
08-16-2005, 08:36 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">That means if you want to move 3000 pounds down the road you're gonna have to expend so much energy. It can be gas, diesel, coal or whatever but you still have to expend that much energy. There is no free ride in physics that I know of. </font>

Actually considerably MORE than "THAT" amount of energy, if you derive it from an engine of some kind, and use a maechanism to move it.

Friction, and entropy are "losses" that limit the efficiency with which you can apply energy in fuel. The ideal cycle is still nowhere near 80% efficient..........

Rich C, If you are paying 25% in gas tax, you must be living in a major "blue state".... it is a lot less here, and most other places I know about. Maybe 7%.....

Your Old Dog
08-16-2005, 08:55 AM
If cars ran all week on 1 gallon of gas do you still think you could buy gas for $3.00 per gallon? How about if you just bought smaller cars, would fuel prices stay the same? Oil companys might want more for it since they ain't selling as much.

If I'm not mistaken, mainly crude is shipped to this country because of it's flash point being much higher than refined gas. It's also safer to ship. Therefore, you wanna make some more gas out of crude you just might need some refinerys. Now I find out the refinerys are crude specific. I wasn't aware of that. Maybe we could use a couple a more refinerys in this country. What do you think? Or should we wait till they're all gone to decide what to do about it. Maybe break out the technology to run cars on air, water or bull****.

Would it help if we weren't damn near entirely dependant on foreign product? Or is it better for them to hold our financial fate/destiny in their hands instead of our own.

Lets face it, there's a large contingent of Americans who feel it isn't fair that we have so much in this country and others have so little. They feel we need to level the playing field by taxing the s--t out of us for everything. It's a punitive measure if you ask me and just so some libs can feel better about themselves. I read somewhere yesterday that liberalism is an illness and you won't have to talk to me much to convince me it's the truth. Guilt about everything.

No need for guilt. Any country can do what this country does. They just need freedom and free markets to do it. No surprise that most war lords and tyrants don't want to give up tyranny for freedom. We try to help these countrys and our libs p-ss and moan about it thereby prolonging the effort.

Oil, yea, it's a world market but that don't mean we can't influence it. The question, should we control our own destiny or hand over control to foreign interest?


[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 08-16-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 08-16-2005).]

bob308
08-16-2005, 09:19 AM
iraq had nothing to do with oil. it was about 3000 plus people that were killed on 911 and a leader that was not scaried to kick some ass.

MechHead
08-16-2005, 10:35 AM
Does anybody have an opinion on Dubya's increasing the nation's stockpile form 700,000,000 barrels to 1 billion? I think that may have something to do with the recent posturing of Iran, Norh Korea, and China. That's a pretty big gas tank.

MechHead
08-16-2005, 10:35 AM
Does anybody have an opinion on Dubya's increasing the nation's stockpile form 700,000,000 barrels to 1 billion? I think that may have something to do with the recent posturing of Iran, Norh Korea, and China. That's a pretty big gas tank.

MechHead
08-16-2005, 10:38 AM
Does anybody think the increased oil prices have anything at all to do with Dubya's increasing the national oil reserves from 700M barrels to 1B? I think he did that with the recent posturing on the part of China, North Korea, and Iran.

jkilroy
08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
It has always been a clearly understood fact that things like oil, coal, and natural gas are non-renewable resources. The supply of all three is finite.

Who actually thinks that an increase in refining capacity will lower prices? That is just so much BS. You can increase capacity all you want, but sub $2.00 a gallon gas is gone and it is never coming back. Thats not some price fixing theory. There is over $1.50 worth of crude in every gallon of gas, at barrel cost.

For many years the US has been the only huge hog user of fossil fuels. This is no longer the case. Global demand is shooting up like a rocket and there is no supply that can keep up. Prices will rise, period.

Iraq was not about oil? Some people will believe anything. 9/11 was a good excuse to establish a power base in the land of the low hanging fruit. We are protecting our supply chain, which is in our best interest, period.

Your Old Dog
08-16-2005, 12:14 PM
I don't think a Billion amounts to much more than spit.

Takes a few gallons to operate war ships and birds. Wouldn't be too good an idea to cut it too close in troubled times.

Or, could it be the prudent thing to do if you were expecting trouble from another part of the world and wanted to make sure your country was warm duriing the winter months?

I don't have a problem with it.

MechHead
08-16-2005, 12:33 PM
BTW, don't get me wrong, I think Saddam Hussein's reign of terror needed to be cut short. If the UN pulled it's thumb out of its ass and started dealing with these despots, we wouldn't have to have nations acting on their own. As for the UN security council, the permanent members maybe shouldn't be permanent if they are unwilling to step in and end genocides like what happened in Cambodia, Bosnia-Herzogovina, and Uganda.

The League of Nations tried that approach with a certain Bohemian Corporal.

Evan
08-16-2005, 01:59 PM
As a point of interest Canada is the largest single supplier of crude oil and refined products including gasoline to the USA. Canadian companies (and Canadian operations of US companies) have spent billions upgrading refineries here over the last couple of decades. It doesn't make sense to build a new refinery with all the environmental hassles when you already have a refinery that you can expand.

The price of gas at the pumps has little to do with the price of crude. It accounts for a relatively small percentage of the pump price. An example of how we get shafted here in Williams Lake is that we are paying about the same price at the pump as someone in Vancouver. The gasoline comes from a refinery in Prince George just 150 miles from here so shipping cost in negligible. BUT, in Vancouver there is a total of 20 cents additional taxes for the local transit system applied to their pump price that we don't have here yet we see the same pump price.

That can only be the oil companies doing that and they are relying on the fact that most people are ignorant of the price structure in Vancouver vs here. We should be paying 20 cents per litre less than Vancouver.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 08-16-2005).]

J Tiers
08-16-2005, 05:15 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
As a point of interest Canada is the largest single supplier of crude oil and refined products including gasoline to the USA. Canadian companies (and Canadian operations of US companies) have spent billions upgrading refineries here over the last couple of decades. It doesn't make sense to build a new refinery with all the environmental hassles when you already have a refinery that you can expand.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 08-16-2005).]</font>

Oil? Schmoil.

How much of the tar sand resource is controlled by chinese companies now?

How much are they trying to invest in and control?

How much existing oil reserve are chinese companies attempting to purchase rights to?

You might be surprised.

Rustybolt
08-16-2005, 05:39 PM
I think it has more to do with our limited refining capacity(USA) than anything else right now. We shouldn't have to rely on finished product from Canada or Mexico, but the EPA has made it too cost prohibitive to build one here( a new refinery).
That plus increased demand in China and India.

Evan
08-16-2005, 05:39 PM
China doesn't have a controlling interest in any of the companies. They have 17% of MEG Energy Corp and 40% of Synenco's Northern Lights oil sands project.

Wirecutter
08-16-2005, 05:54 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
As a point of interest Canada is the largest single supplier of crude oil and refined products including gasoline to the USA. </font>

Actually, unless something has recently changed, (and that never happens in the oil industry, right?) that distinction actually goes to Venezuela. Saudi produces the most, and Venezuela is the USA's largest single source. I don't know what percentage it is of the total amount imported to the USA, but I'll bet it's not much. We import a lot of the stuff from a lot of different places. I'm sure Canada is in the top running, and if you count all trade, Canada is our biggest trading partner. Funny thing about sharing thousands of miles of border and having a language in common...

Evan
08-16-2005, 05:59 PM
Nope. As per US DOE Canada was 1.6 million bbl/d from January-October 2004, Saudi Arabia was 1.5 million bbl/d and Venezuela was 1.3 million bbl/d. Also Canada is far and away the largest supplier of natural gas.

Revised numbers just in http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif for 2004. Canada supplied 2.1 million bbl/d for the entire year.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Canada is the largest supplier of crude and refined oil to the U.S. It provided 2.1 million barrels per day in 2004, 17% of U.S. oil imports and 10% of American oil consumption. The tar sands alone account for 31% of Canada's oil production and are expected to grow exponentially over the next 30 years.</font>

here (http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/s/thedeal/20050808/bs_deal_thedeal/canadasoilsandsmaysparkfrenzy)


[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 08-16-2005).]

Toolmaker Extrodinair
08-16-2005, 11:25 PM
we in the tooling trade should no longer deal with any device, or manfacture anything that has to do with drilling, pumping, or delivering fuel in any way. also every trucker should just park their rig on the roadway. Problem is you cannot get everyone to stand together as the unions did in their early days. I know some are saying the hell with the unions, but where would you be today without what they did. You will find out if we do not stop the running of this country by a few.

Rich Carlstedt
08-17-2005, 01:45 AM
J Tiers ...You said
Rich C, If you are paying 25% in gas tax, you must be living in a major "blue state".... it is a lot less here, and most other places I know about. Maybe 7%.....

Well lets see here in Wisconsin, we pay over 31 Cents per gallon State Fuel Charge , Plus 18.4 Cents Federal rate, plus 5 1/2 %, so when I filled up today at $ 2.699 I paid (18.4+31+14=)63.4 Cents per Gallon in taxes, so 2.699 /63.4= 23.5% ( so maybe I over did it with 25 %) But here is another kicker..The State of Wisconsin DEMANDS that the gas station get a MINIMUM of 8 Cents /Gallon profit..thats the law !

I see in todays News, that the People in Washington State are trying to appeal state gas tax..good for them..

Your Old Dog
08-17-2005, 07:26 AM
Alistar,
Has anyone thanked you for stirring up...... I meen "posting" this thread? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

spope14
08-17-2005, 08:53 AM
The solution is not more oil as much as how we deal with the future at this point. Actual committment to little piddly daily things we can do around our homes, and in our lives. Actual committment to the use of mass transit in urban and even sub-urban areas. Committment to find alternate energy sources such as nuclear, wind, and the upgrading of hydro plants. researching "peak time" hydro plants in new ways...I will hit on that in a minute.

Working on this more...Really pushing the use of high efficiency lighting. I did this switch in my shop in April. The lighting is better, the use is 23% of what was there. Better in two ways!!!!! I did this in my home this past year - just a few new lights, and all the rooms and fixtures are now High e. I got the bennies when my older kid moved in, to new people in th house, my bill stayed level, and even took a drop.

Really pushing the use of high efficiency appliances. General stuff like daily use products such as refrigeration and microwaves, washers, and dryers, and televisions. Moving on to high efficiency heating plants. Mine is an oil burner. The boiler is still the same 1950 boiler, but the burner is very high efficiency, I keep it real clean, the water tank is well insulated, an my heating pipes are now insulated but for the cellar "pipe" that is specifically set in a place with finning to provide some heat to prevent freezing. It is also on its own "turn on/off zone" so if I have enough heat from the main area, I can shut it down. I leave it on though, for it is balanced into the system at this point, and turning it off then back on tends to cycle the burner four extra times to re-achieve the balance. Only off when I know it can sty off for more than five days.

Which brings me to education of use..... I have to kick my kids in the fanny daily - TURN OFF THINGS when you are not using them. DO NOT ask me for a ride to anywhere less than one mile away!!!!!! Turning the heating system to 80 does NOT make the system heat up faster than leaving it at 70, and instead peaks things out higher than normal and screws up the blance. and kid - CLOSE THAT DAMNED DOOR!!!!!!! keep your heating systems clean. All sounds too simple, we all do it????? The biggest thing I have seen while working with a heating charity here in my city, most people we have to deal with in our city do NONE of this common sense stuff. Clogged air filters, clogged fuel filters, plants that have not been cleand in five years, and you are trying to heat a bolier through about 2 inches of soot.

Little real cheapo things like high eficiency water spouts - those little venturi restricors in shower heads that you would never know the difference without. The same with all faucetts. saves hot water use immensely, the first gallon of fuel you save pays for the entire project of buying about 5 to 6 venturis.

General things such as insulating better, better windows, and getting state governments and federal governments to actually give breaks for doing such things as putting in new windows in an old home, insulating, or replacing inefficient wiring and electrical systems wih efficient systems and high e-lighting. Even the littler things such as sealing out cold or hot air infiltration around doors wih those plastic sealer mouldings (about three bucks for a roll of 24 feet), or even moretite or caulking cracks around windows, or sealing foundations.

Many electric nd local gas companies have programs for "heating evaluations" where they bring in an Infradred camera an check out your home for issues of leaks and infiltration. Use them if you have them - that IS why they are there!!!!!!

Unfortunately, the local and state gov'ts - like I "work" in, see this new window, heting system, and some electrical upgrades as "upgrading" and tax you more - like the 15K increase in valuation I took for my new windows (5K cost) last year - there goes my savings and more........

Should call the inefficient homes and such a "detriment" and tax them more, but I digress......

I made my inefficient 1872 farm home fairly efficient over the past five years. Cost was high, but oil use went from 400 gallons of heating oil to 750 gallons, and this with two people moved back in, an a teenage daughter to boot.

How does this combat greed and profit taking? It does not, but it does set the foundation for the next 25 years, when the consumption discomfort of the prices becomes a real and true lack of fuel, coal, and gas. besides, do you take some ations, or just complain. I feel that ith the greed and such, my little things such as thinking about my driving patterns, doing little things around the home, and buying smarter in all areas of energy using appliances - I feel that I have been keeping things at about year 2001 expense levels rather than paying the almost 200% or more increases many have seen. (2X costs over 2001).

Think through your driving. I have little rule in my home now...If you are going out for just one item at the store, ask about the home and see if other things are needed. Doing this often combines what would be three to four trips into one little trip to the Wally World (16 miles now becomes 4). If it is just one item, it better be something you just can't live without. Either that, or get it when you are out and about in daily transport when you normally pass by these places.

My wife drives 62 miles round trip to work daily. Any miles we can avoid at this point are dollars in our pocket - and I mean some pretty good DOLLARS. if we were just one mile communters, it would be different. Her hours are strange fo the mass transit system, but when they match, she uses it, for it is also less stressful on her psyche to have somebody else drive.

We also had our tires filled with nitrogen. many tire companies do this now. Average fuel milage went on the Neon from 33 MPG to 36 MPG. The Ranger went from 15 to 17.5 in town. I notice this difference in the use of the Neon, which my wife drives her 62 miles daily. Used to have to do a "top off" each Friday - now I do not do this on a normal basis.

Thinking more globally.

Use of Mass transit, Bonuses for those who use mass transit, or tax breaks. In our semi-urban / semi-rural area, we have three major (500 or more) employers in our area, and they do provide some mass transit to outlying areas. Allow some provisions and incentive for employees to use this mode.

Wind? Wind farms have their issues, but in rural areas, could this not be quite the supplement?

Solar has always proven to be a high expense dream for mass energy use, but supplemental cells on homes, and residential and "building level" supplemental heating of water by solar works well.

I have been researching and working a bit ith some "peak level" hydro plants. Some people have the idea, a good one, that you take an old structure or a tall quality - say a smokestack. The stack is illed with water, and during peak electricity times, ths stack acts as head stock, an runs a very efficient turbine to produce an amazing quantity of electricity for bout 3 to 4 hours. It also charges its own batteries, and during overnight hours, fills itself back up with its on power. These things can cycle three times a day.

High efficiency turbines are also out there. With invent of ceramic bearings, lighter and stonger materials, new gearing, and microtechnology for many circuits, thre are products out there that make our old massive turbines inefficient. mny are still on the drawing boards, but many more are in use in little private plants that generate for the "grid' on contract by the major producrs for profit. Rather than building a new dam on a river, you re-fit a bit at a time the older dams and hydo plants.

I think our current downfall though is with our thoughts that between 1983 to about 2003, our energy prices for oils and gas stood rather steady, for example - gas stood between .89 to about 1.25. We were shocked hard when it skyed to this level from 1972 (about.25) to 1983 (about 1.25), but we mentally adjusted, it became budgeted into our lives, and we moved on, and energy efficiency became secondary in our lives. Electricity stayed rather constant during this time as well, Cost of living increases mostly, until about three years back.

We got complacent, but for a few of us cheapskates. We also saw this coming back in 1999, hen gas hit a spike during the campaign season, and we just thought it was just a campaign thing.







[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 08-17-2005).]

J Tiers
08-17-2005, 09:31 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rich Carlstedt:
J Tiers ...You said
Rich C, If you are paying 25% in gas tax, you must be living in a major "blue state".... it is a lot less here, and most other places I know about. Maybe 7%.....

Well lets see here in Wisconsin, we pay over 31 Cents per gallon State Fuel Charge , Plus 18.4 Cents Federal rate, plus 5 1/2 %, so when I filled up today at $ 2.699 I paid (18.4+31+14=)63.4 Cents per Gallon in taxes, so 2.699 /63.4= 23.5% ( so maybe I over did it with 25 %) But here is another kicker..The State of Wisconsin DEMANDS that the gas station get a MINIMUM of 8 Cents /Gallon profit..thats the law !

I see in todays News, that the People in Washington State are trying to appeal state gas tax..good for them..</font>


Wisconsin is generally conceded to be the second "most liberal" state in the USA, right behind Massachusetts.
That would indicate it is indeed a "blue" state among "blue states". No surprise there.

bob308
08-17-2005, 09:59 AM
well i dont know where pa. falls. but we pay more then 50% in taxes on gas.

ome one said that if our cars got better malage the price would not go down. they dont know how right they are.
i saw a report where some states were going to tax on miles driven instead og gas. each time you went to gt gas there would be a computer hook up and you would have to pay for the milage you had driven before you got any more gas.it hink it was wa.or or.

Spin Doctor
08-17-2005, 02:23 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J Tiers:

Wisconsin is generally conceded to be the second "most liberal" state in the USA, right behind Massachusetts.
That would indicate it is indeed a "blue" state among "blue states". No surprise there.

</font>

That depends on just which Wisconsin you are talking about. Get away from Madison and the South Eastern corner and the political climate is quite different. Even the SE counties like Racine and kenosha have political fault lines that pretty much end around the city limits.

PHiers
08-17-2005, 04:06 PM
Well gas tax to the feds is 18.4 cents a gallon, everyone pays that. In Ohio (a red state) we also have 24 cents a gallon state tax PLUS sales tax of 6.5 per cent (in my county some are as high as 7.5 per cent)
So every time I buy 20 gallons of gas at 2.50 a gallon I am paying federal and state tax of 8.48 plus sales tax of 3.25 for a total on 11.73 on my 50.00 purchase. This is 23.46 percent. I don't know where jtiers lives but I need to move there! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif



------------------
Paul in NE Ohio

J Tiers
08-17-2005, 05:43 PM
With gas at $2.55, the MO rate of 17 cents per gallon would make it 6.6% of the amount paid, (approx 7%). Feds is the same for everyone, so it drops out into a "basic cost" status.

GA has 7.5 cents/gal in the data I found, the lowest.

According to the data, Wisconsin has 32.1 cents/gal plus Feds, making it and NY the ones with highest gas tax. The minimum per-gallon profit probably raises WI over the top, at about 40 cents/gallon.

http://www.lmoga.com/taxrates.htm

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

That may now be old data, but there it is.

IOWOLF
08-17-2005, 06:55 PM
I am told in texas and okla. there are refinerys sitting empty,closed, for no aperent reason.

Evan
08-17-2005, 07:20 PM
Since 1981 175 refineries have been closed in the US because they were not profitable enough. A major reason for this was the elimination of price controls and allocations due to deregulation in 1981.

bobbybeef
08-17-2005, 08:21 PM
The cost of unleaded fuel hit A$1.20 per litre yesterday.Since we run 4.5 litres to the gallon thats about A$5.50. In US$ close enough to US$4.00.per gallon US. A lot of it is tax but we import slightly more fuel than we export.Our pricing is set to ensure that our prices are in parity,whatever that is, with prices in this region. We were told that it was the USs fault because you brought on a typhoon in the gulf. Off Texas that is not Iraq. I really think that the cheap Chinese Yuan is the main cause because it has fuelled a rapid expansion of their exports. When the Yuan is appreciated upwards by at least 10% we should see some reduction in the competition for oil and hence the price. We could be in for a long haul. But,for all those interested in cheap Chinese shop gear ,get it now as it will only get dearer. Almost as much as second hand Brit gear. Seen the price of a Myford lately. dont know if the US makes lathes any more. I mean bench top sorts for the home shop.apart from the Taig.
Bobby.

Allan Waterfall
08-18-2005, 08:34 AM
Just had this email,
_________________
Subject: FW: Rising Petrol Prices - pls read

See what you think and pass it on if you agree with it. We are hitting 95p
a litre in some areas now, soon we will be faced with paying £1 a ltr.

Philip Hollsworth offered this good idea:

This makes MUCH MORE SENSE than the "don't buy petrol on a certain day"
campaign that was going around last April or May! The oil companies just
laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to hurt ourselves by
refusing to buy petrol. It was more of an inconvenience to us than it was
a problem for them.

BUT, whoever thought of this idea, has come up with a plan that can really
work. Please read it and join in! Now that the oil companies and the OPEC
nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a litre is CHEAP, we
need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the market
place not sellers. With the price of petrol going up more each day, we
consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price
of petrol come down is if we hit someone in the pocket by not purchasing
their Petrol! And we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. Here's the
idea:

For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY petrol from the two biggest
oil companies (which now are one), ESSO and BP. If they are not selling
any petrol, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce
their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an
impact, we need to reach literally millions of Esso and BP petrol buyers.
It's really simple to do!! Now, don't whimp out on me at this point...
keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of
people!!

I am sending this note to a lot of people. If each of you send it to at
least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)...and those 300 send it to at least ten more
(300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth
generation of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers!
If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each,
then 30 million people will have been contacted! If it goes one level
further, you guessed it.....THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!

Again, all You have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all. (and not
buy at ESSO/BP) How long would all that take? If each of us sends this
email out to ten more people within one day of receipt, all 300 MILLION
people could conceivably be contacted within the next 8days!!! I'll bet
you didn't think you and I had that much potential, did you! Acting
together we can make a difference. If this makes sense to you, please pass
this message on. PLEASE HOLD OUT UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE 69p
a LITRE RANGE. It's easy to make this happen.

Just forward this email, and buy your petrol at Shell, Asda, Tesco,
Sainsburys, Morrisons, Jet etc. i.e. boycott BP and Esso.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!
______________________

Interesting idea?

Allan

Evan
08-18-2005, 12:35 PM
Allan,

That won't make a whit of difference. It won't change how much gasoline is sold and will only hurt the poor sod or employees that run the gas stations. Gas is refined and sold to whoever needs a particular grade by whomever has it. Branding is largely a marketing gimmick.

ahidley
08-18-2005, 01:09 PM
LONDON (Aug. 17) - Motorists struggling with high gas prices in the United States and Europe may be surprised to learn that consumers in Iraq pay as little as 5 cents a gallon, according to the International Monetary Fund's first assessment of the Iraqi economy in 25 years.

Thanks to generous government subsidies on petroleum products -- which the IMF criticized as a threat to the country's fragile economy -- Iraq has some of the cheapest gas in the world.

By contrast, Americans pay about $2.55 a gallon and Britons pay $6.24. Iraqis also pay much less for a gallon of regular gasoline than in nearby countries such as Iran (38 cents), Jordan ($1.89) and Syria ($1.74).

Even the many Iraqis who pay higher, black-market prices at the pump often make money by smuggling gasoline into neighboring countries such as Turkey, according to the International Monetary Fund's 62-page report released Monday.

Iraq's government hasn't been able to fulfill its promise to the IMF to slash the massive subsidies, given how much the country already is suffering from escalating violence by insurgents, high unemployment and inflation, and poor electricity, water and sewage services.

Last month, the Yemeni government agreed to reverse its earlier decision to lift subsidies on oil products after a wave of riots and strikes swept Yemen's major cities.

In 2004, gasoline subsidies alone cost the Iraqi government $3 billion, the IMF said.

Therefore, the IMF said it was cutting its forecast for gross domestic product growth this year from 17 percent to 4 percent. In 2004, the Iraqi GDP was $25.5 billion. This year it is projected to reach $29.3 billion.

The IMF said oil production was likely to reach only 2 million barrels a day over the year, down from its earlier estimate of 2.4 million barrels "because of the continuing sabotage of oil installations and the resulting halting of oil exports from the north."

Before U.S.-led forces defeated Saddam Hussein, whose government also heavily subsidized gas prices for consumers, average annual oil production in Iraq was 2.5 million barrels per day.

The IMF said the government was likely to run short of money in the second half of this year because of lower oil exports and a shortfall in revenue largely caused by the subsidies.

Iraq's proven oil reserves, estimated at about 115 billion barrels, are the world's third largest. The potential development of the oil sector is considerable, given that a large portion of the country remains unexplored.

That's why oil analysts closely watch Iraq's oil production and export figures to see if they will affect the world's skyrocketing oil prices, now hovering at about $66 a barrel.

"Because of the tight situation of the oil market, any increase in Iraqi production will have a positive affect on the supply side," said Muhammad-Ali Zainy, a senior energy economist at the London-based Centre for Global Energy Studies.

Iraq's economy has benefited from today's oil prices. But widespread attacks by insurgents limit its oil exports. Also, the government doesn't have the money it needs to rehabilitate and upgrade an oil industry infrastructure that has fallen apart during two decades of wars, misuse by Saddam Hussein's government and international trade sanctions.

Zainy said few changes are expected in Iraq's current oil exports of about 1.6 million barrels a day, mostly through its southern ports, which have suffered far fewer insurgent attacks than the main pipeline to Turkey in the north.

"The problem is that the Iraqi economy is in a shambles and non-oil income is trivial, so the government is almost completely dependent on oil income and whatever the international community can contribute," Zainy said.

Issam al-Chalabi, who served as Iraq's oil minister in the late 1980s, agreed.

"It's doubtful the government will be able to do anything of significance regarding its oil market this year," al-Chalabi said in a telephone interview from Jordan, where he now works as an oil consultant.

He said the insurgent attacks mean none of the world's major oil companies are willing to invest in the country.

Al-Chalabi said these companies also don't want to sign significant contracts in a country that is currently drafting a new constitution that could affect the oil industry and that plans to elect a new national government later this year.

"BP and Shell are not planning to go into Iraq any time soon. Until you get a new elected government and much better security, forget it," al-Chalabi said.


8/17/2005 13:35:41

Cut Bushes Balls off, we should be getting this aid, not another country, especially one that crashed into our twin towers to ruin our economy...

J Tiers
08-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Probably won't make any difference....

But several brands do have their own refinerys, so they do have some linkage.

Other sellers, like "QT", "Speedway" etc (in the states), buy gas on the "spot market". It makes no difference to them what you do, since if Shell (who I DO boycott) can't use it, they just sell it to QT etc.

My beef with Shell is more over their policy with stations. They raised the rents to their operators by a factor of 3, and when the operators were forced to quit, Shell opened the stations back up as company operated ones. Then they ended up closing many of them again, and sold them off as building sites.

Some "suit" had a great idea, and I hope he got fired.

wierdscience
08-18-2005, 11:13 PM
Noticed the last few days that the oil price has been inching down,but the price at the pump has been going up?Reason given on the news today was the station/convience store owners aren't selling as many chips/drinks/beer etc so they are using the lag to make up the loss.

dvideo
08-19-2005, 08:40 PM
IOWOLF said........

"I am told in texas and okla. there are refinerys sitting empty,closed, for no aperent reason."

I wondered about some of that too...

My daughter, who lives in Galveston, regulary (at least she says) hears plants blowing in Texas City (ie, down the coast - a bit). She says a lot of plants are really dangerous since they're old, and a lot of the equipment/piping wasn't made to last forever. Some is so dangerous, it is just turned off and allowed to rust...

--jr

********************

In any event, I got the bike tuned up, have the truck dead at the body shop, and got my helmet out. I figure I can get about 10 miles per can of chicken noodle soup and bag crackers. Cheaper than gas.

--jr

[This message has been edited by dvideo (edited 08-19-2005).]