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View Full Version : What Glue should I use in Vitrified CBN Grinding-wheels?



Koloya
08-22-2005, 05:29 AM
My Brothers,

I have a big problem have to solve. I do not know whether there is anybody who use Vitrified CBN Grinding-wheels. I think the abrasive-field and basement is combined by GLUE.
Vitrifield CBN Wheels are solid and have a very rapid speed, so I think the GLUE should be very strong, could anybody give me some hints about this kind of GLUE?

I am very appreciate for that!!!

JCHannum
08-22-2005, 08:53 AM
Would you buy a grinding wheel from this man?

Seriously, apparently his company is unable to reverse engineer the methods and materials used to form a vitreous grinding wheel. Scary huh?

Think about that the next time you turn on your HF grinder.

Mcgyver
08-22-2005, 09:31 AM
wtf JC, I thought he was your brother?

Paul Alciatore
08-22-2005, 11:40 AM
Please note his location. P.R.C.

A little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing. I would recommend that this question be left unanswered.


Mr. Koloya,

A rotating grinding wheel has a lot of energy stored inside it. If one should come apart at speed, the results could be deadly. NO EXAGERATION, DEADLY. If you are going to make a wheel for your own use, I would strongly suggest that you purchase a lot of protection for your whole body and face/eyes (better yet, just buy a proper wheel). If you are going to produce them for sale, please mark them "REJECTS, DO NOT ONE RPM" and put a skull and cross bone emblem on them so everyone can know that they are risking their lives if they do use them.

If you still intend to produce them, please, PLEASE hire a knowledgable, experienced engineer from that industry to do the designs and set up the production line. And set up a QC program. PLEASE!

Paul A.

JCHannum
08-22-2005, 11:54 AM
Paul, that is my point. Koloya has posted here previously.

According to his posts and profile, he is in marketing for a Chinese manufacturer of grinding wheels.

If these people have such basic questions regarding the manufacture of wheels, one should question the safety and integrity of their product before use.

Evan
08-22-2005, 12:42 PM
The company Koloya works for sells a line of CBN grinding wheels. It seems that he has been tasked with finding out more about the lastest CBN vitrified bond technology. He is misusing the word GLUE as these wheels are bonded in a high temperature process using a proprietary blend of glass and ceramic powders as the bonding agent. They last two to three times longer than standard bond CBN wheels.

Lots of luck Koloya in finding out what the blend of bonding agents are. I don't think this is amenable to reverse engineering since once the bond is formed the chemical composition is different from what it started at. You'll have to develop this in house yourself.



[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 08-22-2005).]

spope14
08-22-2005, 01:31 PM
As I recall, many went round and round with Kolya, but Thrud set many of us straight, and Kolya actually turned out to be a pretty good guy. Just my thoughts from history.

The bond, well, I really do not know. many different mfgrs use different bonds, and even many same manufacturers use different bonding agents (glue) for different CBN applications. I guess the application comes first. Is the wheel a cup wheel, face wheel that may take some side pressures, or a side type tool grinding wheel.

Grit size, depths of intended cuts, and even the idea of using the wheel for shaping (CNC Grinding whene the wheel may take many different forces fom side to face to angular) may also become a factor.

Good luck. I have to say it that I do not think of the bonding agent so much as I order th wheels by tech spec to match my applications, materials, grades, thus relying on the sales person, and tech literature.

Iquithadenuff
08-22-2005, 02:22 PM
Elmer's

Norman Atkinson
08-22-2005, 02:40 PM
I am appalled by the situation of a professional company using underhand methods to elicit information from members of this Forum.

There is a subtle line which contributors adopt to avoid what is a peculiarly pecuniary advantage from this friendly environment. Whether the import of this English translates into Mandarin or Chinese is problematical.

Again, there are forms of English and its interpretation.

If the message is still unclear, might I precis- that's French word- what has been said.

" You have passed tolerance and are simply abusing the system"

The great American humourist O.Henry once described intrusion of this nature and I quote his timeless words
" Tell him to F*** Off!"

Norman

Rustybolt
08-22-2005, 03:20 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by NORMAN ATKINSON:

I am appalled by the situation of a professional company using underhand methods to elicit information from members of this Forum.

There is a subtle line which contributors adopt to avoid what is a peculiarly pecuniary advantage from this friendly environment. Whether the import of this English translates into Mandarin or Chinese is problematical.

Again, there are forms of English and its interpretation.

If the message is still unclear, might I precis- that's French word- what has been said.

" You have passed tolerance and are simply abusing the system"

The great American humourist O.Henry once described intrusion of this nature and I quote his timeless words
" Tell him to F*** Off!"

Norman

</font>


Now. Now. They have every intention of compensating the patent holder for this information.

Norman Atkinson
08-22-2005, 03:32 PM
Rustybolt,

And the band played

"Believe it if you can"

James M Barrie wrote in Peter Pan

"If you believe in fairies,
clap your hands"


Norman

As it was a North East of England firm that used to make the resins for abrasives'
might I add a little Latin?

Nil Illigitimi Carborundum

Evan
08-22-2005, 03:52 PM
Hmmm. A bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Reverse engineering is for the most part entirely legal and practiced by every company. Certainly asking for information isn't underhanded. It is very unlikely that Koloya will obtain anything useful though.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Reverse engineering has a long history as an accepted practice. What it means, broadly speaking, is the process of extracting know-how or knowledge from a human-made artifact. Lawyers and economists have endorsed reverse engineering as an appropriate way to obtain such information, even if the intention is to make a product that will draw customers away from the maker of the reverse-engineered product.</font>

http://www.yalelawjournal.org/archive_abstract.asp?id=303

JCHannum
08-22-2005, 04:13 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Hmmm. A bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Reverse engineering is for the most part entirely legal and practiced by every company. Certainly asking for information isn't underhanded. It is very unlikely that Koloya will obtain anything useful though.

http://www.yalelawjournal.org/archive_abstract.asp?id=303</font>

The fact that that abstract was authored by lawyers only serves to reinforce Norman's, and my, opinion that it is indeed a sneaky and underhanded practice.

[This message has been edited by JCHannum (edited 08-22-2005).]

Evan
08-22-2005, 04:58 PM
Still, it's a practice that all companies with an R&D department use.

JCHannum
08-22-2005, 05:36 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Still, it's a practice that all companies with an R&D department use.</font>

That is only partially true. Much R&D is directed toward finding out what the competition is doing, and then moving on from there, or to find if they are in violation of the R&D company's patents.

Since there are patent and copyright laws protecting intellectual property in effect, outright copying is not legal no matter how the information is obtained.

The Chinese do not respect these laws, and once the information is obtained, procede to manufacture blatant copies. Let them find out the hard way or pay for the information by buying licensing like everyone else does.

John Stevenson
08-22-2005, 05:49 PM
Kolya,
I don't mind sharing information, I feel it's all for the good.
These people who say you should find out for yourselves can't realise that grinding wheel manufacture is finished in the west.

The glue you speak of is actually three products that fall under the generic term of BST.

If you do a web search for this term under Google you will find it stands for Blood Sweat and Tears, now **** off.

John S.

Evan
08-22-2005, 06:00 PM
Patent laws do apply if a product is produced that uses the same methods and mechanisms as another patented product. However, copyright does not if the product (computer program for instance) was produced without reference to another product. This is called the "clean room" approach. Some companies use a clean room / dirty room system where the two teams only exchange information that does not reveal the details of the product to the clean room team.

Reverse engineering is practiced by all companies with R&D departments at the very least to protect from patent infringement suits.

There is no doubt that China is responsible for a great deal of pirating of IP. Part of this though is due to Chinese patent law being signifcantly different than US law. In fact it is US patent law that is out of step with most of the world.

In the US the rule is "first to invent" gets the patent. In China and the EU it is "first to file" who gets a patent. If a US company has not filed for protection by patent in China then anyone who does is protected under Chinese (and EU if filed there) patent laws as having priority whether they invented it or not.

Evan
08-22-2005, 06:02 PM
"These people who say you should find out for yourselves can't realise that grinding wheel manufacture is finished in the west."

Oh? The wheels my wife sells are all manufactured right here in the Pacific Northwest. Right from scratch including all sorts and grades including diamond, CBN and all the others. None are imported from overseas.

John Stevenson
08-22-2005, 06:09 PM
Evan,
Keep reading down.

Rustybolt
08-22-2005, 06:35 PM
Evan. I don,t know if GE still holds the patents on CBN, but I'm pretty sure that the process is proprietary especially metal matrix CBN.

Evan
08-22-2005, 06:54 PM
Actually GE doesn't make CBN at all. They only make Hexagonal (h)BN (boron nitride, a soft, white, powder) which is then used by other companies to make CBN and Wurtzite.

Koloya
08-22-2005, 08:44 PM
I appreciate those men who help me to solve the problem.

While I see many people around here does not even understand Grinding-wheels in Vitrified CBN Wheels, we manufacture Resinoid and Metallic in normal one-time-pressure method, while as to Vitrified CBN Wheels esp. big size, we have bought the CBN Wheels from Japan and Germany, and plus we heard the situation from our customers. All the feedbacks are even the Japanese or Germany CBN Wheels used GLUE to combine the Abrasive-field and basements.
So also they appear of the situation of the abrasive-field fall from basement. To Japanese, they attitude is normal for they only give us GLUE to recombine them 'cause they always come across the problem. So as to Vitrified CBN Wheels, GLUE is necessary and the most efficient way to manufacture.

While we seek GLUE from China too, I see the qualities may influence the usage time for nearly 1-2 times. So I want to know some brands from Western-World.

I posted here for thinking most of people here will hole professional knowledge. While till now I see not the genius situation.

Koloya
08-22-2005, 08:49 PM
Actually as we had known,
the manufacture process will divide into two ways:One-time-Pressure of Abrasive-field by Strong Vitrified Binder, and get the abrasive-field individually. And then to prepare Basement, then combine them use "UNKNOWN" Glue. We have tested wheels from Foreign while we could not know the Glue from not in the same field. And if there is problem, I think the Pearl Harbor will happen again between Japanese and American.

Sorry for that.

Koloya
08-22-2005, 08:50 PM
Actually as we had known,
the manufacture process will divide into two ways:One-time-Pressure of Abrasive-field by Strong Vitrified Binder, and get the abrasive-field individually. And then to prepare Basement, then combine them use "UNKNOWN" Glue. We have tested wheels from Foreign while we could not know the Glue from not in the same field. And if there is problem, I think the Pearl Harbor will happen again between Japanese and American.

Sorry for that.

ted crivea
08-22-2005, 09:43 PM
My mother used to make glue for me when i was a lit boy, She used flour water and some salt, It worked real good on paper not sure if it will work on your sand

Koloya
08-22-2005, 10:01 PM
The words would make us believe that in somewhat "Advanced Democracy", the people are not so capable to know something.

Koloya
08-22-2005, 10:09 PM
http://www.saint-gobain-superabrasives.co.uk/products/vm/vitrified/vitrified.htm

So what will you think of the Saint-Gobain manufacture of Vitrified CBN Wheels? Pls have your eyes on the Basement---It is Alum., if American can use the same way as Resinoid of One-time-Pressure to manufacture this wheel, being in the procedure of burning, the heat of nearly 1500 will make the Basement into liquid. Only way to solve this is to combine the Alum. Basement with Abrasive-field.
All of the Famous Grinding-wheel manufacturer do that for requirements. That is Industrial Glue instead of what you are talking about.

Pls have your heart on that. I do not wish to see an Advanced country holding so many innocent people around here, while they hold they words of "Professional"

Norman Atkinson
08-23-2005, 01:49 AM
What's all this concern- Sunshine?

Somehow, the intelligent members of the Forum realise that your currency had been re-valued. If you know the Principles of Economics, you will already be aware that it will be more difficult to sell our goods to the West.

He's sweating his balls off.
Poor bastard- let's club together and buy him a bowl of sticky rice!

Norman

Evan
08-23-2005, 01:52 AM
The correct word is "substrate", not "basement" Koloya. By appropriate use of heat sinking and the use of low melting temperature glasses with ceramic fillers it is possible to bond (and sinter) the abrasive mix to the aluminum wheel substrate without melting it.

From what you are saying I presume you think the abrasive structure is being vitrified as a seperate item and then bonded to the wheel substrate using the "unknown glue". I could ask my wife if this is the case but she won't tell me and you will have to figure that out for yourself. If I did know I would not tell you either anyway (or anyone else).

You need to invest in a better translator program.

Norman Atkinson
08-23-2005, 04:15 AM
I used to run the tests on the resins

Not always a Classicist!

One for the book!

Norman

madman
08-23-2005, 10:06 AM
We dont buy chinese crap.

Koloya
08-23-2005, 07:57 PM
I see how some people could be called of "Bastard" 'cause they were being called of "Reason Men".

Thanks Evan for I could know some hints.

And to some of your, you do not buy "Chinese Crap", and I do not wish to sell to you all these "Crap". While if your country lack of our export or import. You could see the consequence.

I know lots of you hold your enemy as Chinese, while do not be afraid. Hurt will be the business in one second. After that, you will know nothing.

Rustybolt
08-23-2005, 09:26 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Actually GE doesn't make CBN at all. They only make Hexagonal (h)BN (boron nitride, a soft, white, powder) which is then used by other companies to make CBN and Wurtzite.</font>


Oh. Thanks. Im some years out of date nodoubt.
When I used to complain to Sunnen about the cost of their CBN stone(metal matrix) they told me to talk to GE.LOL

Evan
08-23-2005, 11:04 PM
Heh. It's nice to know someone in the wheel business (my wife). I get the occasional freebie.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/cbnwheel.jpg

Koloya
08-24-2005, 12:51 AM
Hi,Evan

What you have shown is much more like Resinoid Wheel than Vitrified Wheel. It could not be recoginized by image.

Evan
08-24-2005, 01:18 AM
You are correct, it is a resinoid wheel. Still, it was free http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Koloya
08-24-2005, 01:23 AM
Well,
Resinoid wheel is very simple to manufacture for us. We are trying to improve our quality of Vitrified wheels which is still a big problem in China. Maybe only technical innovation could sustain the living of enterprise.

Evan
08-24-2005, 01:54 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Maybe only technical innovation could sustain the living of enterprise</font>

That is right. If you can develop a BETTER product then you will win sales.

Koloya
08-24-2005, 03:43 AM
We are holding a principle before this research for not regarding the Vitrified CBN Wheels as a Better product.

In fact in China, many people hold many technologies which are toppest in the world and so as to this Wheel. While not even selt to market for kinds of thinkings. We develop Vitrified CBN Wheels just for satisfying wider range instead of develop a Better product.
Actually as you could know, not the everyone arond the world will use the toppest products, and I think which can have the most percentages.