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Reelmaster
08-29-2005, 08:26 AM
Hi Guy's. Could somebody please be so kind as to provide web-site contact details for the firm that produces the good Quality Lazer Beam Edge & Centre Finders. & has any body had experience with these tools& are there any suprises.?????,

Many Thanks in Advance,
Best Regards. Jack.
www.jackerskine.com (http://www.jackerskine.com)

JCHannum
08-29-2005, 08:38 AM
They have been discussed here previously. The general concensus is that, due to the thickness of the laser beam, better accuracy is achieved with the older, mechanical, types of edge finder.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//Forum1/HTML/010674.html

Rex
08-29-2005, 02:45 PM
www.micromark.com (http://www.micromark.com)

retiredguy
08-29-2005, 03:01 PM
Would this work?
It seems too simple to be any good.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//Forum1/HTML/013179.html

Fred.

stiven
08-29-2005, 04:03 PM
The website I just looked at for lasercenteredgefinder says it has a beam diameter of .1mm-.5mm which would be small enough for finding crosshairs for me. The only drawback i could see is that it wouldn't be worth a s**t if you had to take the drill chuck out and use a collet everytime you wanted to use it.The mechanical types as you know center themselves.

Paul Alciatore
08-29-2005, 09:21 PM
0.1 to 0.5mm is 0.004 to 0.020". I certainly don't call that good enough. Perhaps for woodwork; carpentry not cabinetmaking. And I have yet to see any of them actually claim any particular accuracy other than "exact" or "precise". Those are specs. that any device can live up to because they are completely undefined. So if the beam is perhaps 10 thousanths wide and it is "exactly" on the centerline, perhaps +/- 1/64 (precision for wood work) then it is only accurate to +/- 0.025" and that is 1/40 of an inch!!! No thank you. I can do a lot better than that with a $0.50 homemade pointer.

Frankly, I think they are just using the "laser" buzz word to lure in the suckers. If I am going to buy a "laser" centerfinder, I want one that comes with a 20 or 30X magnifier to allow me to see which side of the scribed layout line the beam is sitting on. And one that has adjustments and a fixture for aligning it to the center line of the quill +/-0.0005".

Paul A.

Leigh
08-29-2005, 09:57 PM
A laser would be a poor choice for such an application because it "shimmers". The light appears to move when you look at it.

And you should never look at a laser beam, nor at its reflection from a shiny surface, under any circumstances. Severe eye damage can result.

John Lawson
08-29-2005, 11:03 PM
www.lasercenteredgefinder.com (http://www.lasercenteredgefinder.com)
Well, unlike the geniuses who refuse to show examples of their super accurate work, I bought both sizes of these instruments and retired my edge finders of a conventional type.
So far, I have used them in both collets and drill chucks with altogether satisfactory results. That is, they are every bit (or more) accurate as the old bump and groan method of finding en edge. And, when it comes to locating the intersection of two crossing lines, it is spot on.
I have made parts for several fixtures with matching holes that actually mated perfectly after drilling.
I have been a gunsmith for 60 years or more and I wish I had these instruments from the beginning of my career. They beat Starrett wobblers and sticky pins and those hit-and-miss clicking edge finders by orders of magnitude.
IMHO if you guys aren't satisfied with these instruments, you can't possibly be using the usual types of home shop machinery (unless you have a home like Bill Gates.)
There is nothing wrong with these instruments that I can detect. But, then, nothing that I have ever made (or will ever make) has to be spaced closer than a half thousandth. And, I am getting results much better than I ever obtained with mechanical edge finders and sticky pins.
Humor me; show me some of your projects that these instruments will not perform satisfactorily on.
And, while I see a pulsation on my internal pistol sight laser, I see none on either of these instruments.

John Lawson
08-29-2005, 11:20 PM
OK, I read that thread mentioned. NONE OF THE GUYS WHO PANNED THE INSTRUMENTS HAD EVEN TRIED THEM. Their opinions were based on prejudice or anger that the seller would not become their pen pal.

DFMiller
08-30-2005, 02:04 AM
Strange thing this forum. I just ordered two units from Lasercenteredgefinder today. I am curious to see how well they work. I will report back after they arrive.
Dave

JCHannum
08-30-2005, 07:53 AM
The main drawback to the laser center finder is that it can be no more accurate than the size of the beam plus any inaccuracy caused by the machine spindle/chuck/collet runout.

Further, the spindle must be deadnuts perpendicular to the work. Any amount of out of tram will be magnified as the distance from the spindle to the work increases.

The wiggler and traditional edge finders will locate center to center of rotation of the spindle.

Also note the response by rsanter, who purchased one and found runout in the beam.

Endmill
08-30-2005, 05:15 PM
I too Just recently bought one from Little Machine Shop. It arrived with dead batteries which warrants a $10.00 complaint. I got one with a 1/4" shaft. I would have preferred 1/2" or 3/8' shaft but will make some collars to fit an R8 endmill holder.

I have a number of other Solid State laser assemblies, and this has a much smaller aperture than any of the others. The spot is visible at greater tha 6 ft, and shows a nearly ideal diffraction pattern (The Airey Disk, i.e concentric rings, about the center bright spot.) The center spot size is determined by the size of the aperture.

User visual acuity will determine final accuracy and repeatability. I have astigmatism and the small dot appears as a horizontal line. Moving my head causes the angle of the line to change. The diffraction circles however are perfectly round and distinct. Use of blue layout would seem to be helpful.

Considerable effort obviously has been spent on the form and fit of its design, and the cost is reaonable for a new product. Lasers are currently focused to much smaller than .001" in CD players and recorders. There is no reason why this technology cannot be extended to machining. Part of the reason for purchase was to evaluate the product in this regard. I will post some actual results as soon as it cools off a bit and I am able to work in the shop.

JCHannum
08-30-2005, 07:30 PM
I have had a bit more time this afternoon, and looked around on the website. There is a centering adjustment to permit zeroing the beam to the center of rotation, so the only drawback would be the beam size.

This centering operation would probably have to be repeated with each setup for best accuracy, so speed of use would not be as good as a wiggler.

With any electronic gadget, the price decreases, and the quality increases. I will stay with the mechanical edge and center finders, but the lasers are probably as good, albeit more expensive, and the owners will be advised to keep their wigglers around to have when batteries die.

mochinist
08-30-2005, 08:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Lawson:
www.lasercenteredgefinder.com (http://www.lasercenteredgefinder.com)
Well, unlike the geniuses who refuse to show examples of their super accurate work, I bought both sizes of these instruments and retired my edge finders of a conventional type.
So far, I have used them in both collets and drill chucks with altogether satisfactory results. That is, they are every bit (or more) accurate as the old bump and groan method of finding en edge. And, when it comes to locating the intersection of two crossing lines, it is spot on.
I have made parts for several fixtures with matching holes that actually mated perfectly after drilling.
I have been a gunsmith for 60 years or more and I wish I had these instruments from the beginning of my career. They beat Starrett wobblers and sticky pins and those hit-and-miss clicking edge finders by orders of magnitude.
IMHO if you guys aren't satisfied with these instruments, you can't possibly be using the usual types of home shop machinery (unless you have a home like Bill Gates.)
There is nothing wrong with these instruments that I can detect. But, then, nothing that I have ever made (or will ever make) has to be spaced closer than a half thousandth. And, I am getting results much better than I ever obtained with mechanical edge finders and sticky pins.
Humor me; show me some of your projects that these instruments will not perform satisfactorily on.
And, while I see a pulsation on my internal pistol sight laser, I see none on either of these instruments.</font>

I would show you my super accurate work, but then I would have to kill you(or make you sign a confidentiality contract atleast).

Seriously though I could careless whether or not a guy uses a laser edgefinder, I still think you were sold on it because of it's coolness factor though. For me a starret edge finder works just fine(and will never need batteries), and if I need more accuracy than that I dial in the edge with a 10th indicator.

Dave Burnett
08-30-2005, 08:57 PM
Stick with a mechanical edge finder. A laser edge finder sounds to me like just another gimmick that won't work.

Orrin
08-31-2005, 11:00 AM
I've not used the laser device, but have an optical centering scope. It took a while to figure out how to adjust it to compensate for runout, but now I use it all the time.

I have electrical (so-called electronic) and mechanical edge finders, wigglers, etc. and use them all. I find the optical device to be the fastest of all.

The optical has a big disadvantage, however, there needs to be room in your setup to allow you to put your head down next to it in order to see through the eyepiece. This isn't always possible. For that reason, the laser unit might be the better choice.

Orrin

John Lawson
08-31-2005, 01:15 PM
Machinist:
Be careful who you threaten, even in jest. I am a gunsmith, I pack 24 hours a day and I was a police firearms instructor for 50 years. And, believe me, it isn't humerous to me;it has been tried, but I'm still here.
I bought the laser finders because I use lasers every day in my work...gun sights, bore sighters, etc. I work alone in a one man shop and I live alone with nobody to impress.
I use an odd leg caliper to lay out my work, as I was taught layout practice during my apprenticeship. The laser beam locates the junction of the lines better than a microscope locator.
These instruments have such a tiny exit hole that I have nothing except a needle small enough to measure it. The beam actully disappears in about 6 inches.
Those who locate holes from an edge, using the infeed and crossfeed cranks to locate cannot possibly be more accurate then a proper layout and location by one of these laser instruments.
You guys must have outdoor potties, wells and transport yourselves via Model T Fords.
Personally, having been a reader of HSM and Projects from the first issue, I disbelieve any "reviews" that are not illustrated with photos of tests that were made. Too many readers are trying to impress the group with their prowess and accomplishments. 'Smatter, won't the old lady do anything but grunt at your latest efforts?
Many have bitched about the cost. Well, Edgar Bergen said it best:
"All my life I never drank, gambled or wasted money. I always saved a portion of the money I earned. Now that I'm retired and can spend money for things I want, those who never saved any money blame me because they are broke."
Before you review a tool, buy one and test it, using scientific methods. Nobody cares what you think of the ad layout or suspect reading the description, written by an ad man or worse yet, an editor or what you are projudiced against; we usually silent readers are looking for results and unbiased tests. And, editor, if you read this, your inquiry you mailed out was responded to by people who lied upwardly mobile at least two categories...proved time and again by psychologists. Times and tools change. If you are afraid of change, make it a point to try something new every day.
End of rant. (temporarily)

mochinist
08-31-2005, 07:57 PM
Hey John kiss my ass, I could careless what you pack or what gun classes you taught,if you thought I was serious about my comment then come get me asshole. You might want to digest some fiber, it might help with your irritability.

P.S. I am really surprised that you live alone.