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Evan
09-01-2005, 04:45 PM
The Governor of LA finally asked for the help of the Vancouver special Urban Rescue unit and they are on the way with all their gear and search dogs. What I want to know is why nobody has taken Canada up on the other offers of assistance yet?

We have a specialized unit in the armed forces called DART, Disaster Assistance Response Team. They are on 1 hour standby right now. The ambassador and the president have been notified. DART has an engineering contingent to help repair infrastructure, a fully staffed field hospital that can handle around 300 people per day and a portable water purification system that can produce 200,000 liters of drinking water per day. They also have a security contingent. It will all be there in a few hours if someone says the word.

We have also offered the use of our C-130 transports and the Quebec Hydro power company has offered line crews to help with repairs. DART alone represents 30 million in assistance just to set up and they are equipped to be self sufficient for 40 days.

Alistair Hosie
09-01-2005, 05:00 PM
I have to agree with you Evan this is no time to be too proud to accept help from your poorer (though perhaps better equipped/prepared )neighbour.I cant believe how the richest nation in the world is fumbling in the dark on this one talk about caught with your pants down absolutely rediculous!!!!Alistair

Tinkerer
09-01-2005, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure why they would not ask. But could be because that a few metal midget gang bangers types would rather shoot at anyone coming to help and do not want to put your people in harms way. I think if or when they catch these phuckers they should be tried for accessory to murder. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

Or it could be that manly man thing.. You need help? No. Well you look like you do. Well I don't. Funny I could of sworn you needed help... from the way you keep scratch your ass and rubbin your chin. Or is that a step in the manual.... Have you read the manual? NO now let me be.



[This message has been edited by Tinkerer (edited 09-02-2005).]

Your Old Dog
09-01-2005, 05:16 PM
I think we sometimes give political types way too much credit for being smart.

Years and years ago we had "contingency" plans for anything the Russians would do to us. Now, we have a need to transport thousands of people from one area to another and we don't seem to have enough busses to do the job? We don't own enough heavy equipment to rebuild a roadway in and out? I heard this morning we got 57 helicopters down there! This needs to put the rest of America on notice, if the big disaster hits, you'd better be ready to fend for yourself for at least 10 days. This means food, water and enough ammunition to defend it if you are to protect your family.

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-01-2005, 05:20 PM
I don't think we currently have the extra resources to deploy Canadian rescue units on location then have to rescue them as well. Also, the last thing we want are C-130s falling out of the sky killing more people. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Evan
09-01-2005, 05:26 PM
Funny, they were made in the USA.

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-01-2005, 05:41 PM
Yea, we sell them to Canada for a reason http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Evan
09-01-2005, 05:45 PM
Well, at least ours have been repaired so the wings don't fall off.

IOWOLF
09-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Hell they are shooting at helos down there,
that's gratitude for ya.
At least they are arresting looters now,wonder where they are putting them? Were it me, they would go on a bus heading south.

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The tame Wolf !

fixxit
09-01-2005, 05:50 PM
I read something about the "Homeland Security" folks not wanting to give them clearance to come in to the USA.

I will look for the article and link to it.
I can't link to the article, but here is the text.
__________________________
US won't let Canada help Katrina victims.

A specialized urban search and rescue team from Vancouver will be joining the rescue efforts in Louisiana in the wake of hurricane Katrina. B.C. Solicitor General John Les said the province decided to send Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) after officials in Louisiana asked for help.
"We're the first non-U.S.-based team to be requested," said Les. "They're going to be helping as many people as they can." CTV Vancouver has learned that the team will board a plane Wednesday night heading to Lafayette, Louisiana, where local authorities will direct them to devastated areas.

Sounds great! Except for one problem -- this team wasn't allowed to fly into the US, blocked by Homeland Security from entering. A Canadian reader sends this report:
On tonight's news, CTV (Canadian TV) said that support was offered from Canada. Planes are ready to load with food and medical supplies and a system called "DART" which can provide fresh water and medical supplies is standing by. Department of Homeland Security as well as other U.S. agencies were contacted by the Canadian government requesting permission to provide help. Despite this contact, Canada has not been allowed to fly supplies and personnel to the areas hit by Katrina. So, everything here is grounded. Prime Minister Paul Martin is reportedly trying to speak to President Bush tonight or tomorrow to ask him why the U.S. federal government will not allow aid from Canada into Louisiana and Mississippi.


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[This message has been edited by fixxit (edited 09-01-2005).]

CCWKen
09-01-2005, 05:58 PM
You can blame the wimpy Governor of Louisiana. She doesn't seem to know what to do except sit and wait. She is too afraid that her image will be damaged. She is too PC to declare Marshal Law and stop the lawless rampage that's keeping rescuers out of the area. I can just imagine what would happen if "we" ever get a female president and have a national disaster.

Rant Off.

Part of problem is the shear magnitude of the area and the numbers of people involved. Evan, your numbers wouldn't last four hours down there. 12,000 more troops are on their way there to secure the area. 4,000 are already there. Not much can be done to help people when the looters and gangs are shooting at rescue teams. Some were even shooting at Army rescue helicopters.

Not only do they have to provide "space" for the displaced but also all the volunteers swarming to help. It would do no good to have people showing up to help without a coordinated effort or quarters to keep them. There has to be a staging area for the tens of thousands of people that are showing up to help. San Antonio's City Public Service just sent out 30 electrical trucks and support personnel yesterday. The city (SA) has setup quarters for 10,000 people and they're being bussed here as we write.

No one should expect to be helped immediately after a large disaster. There's a period of time where people need to look after themselves until help can arrive.

RPease
09-01-2005, 06:15 PM
Evan,

Just send them down to help.......the hell with diplomacy. If the state or Feds don't like it, they can lock them up and prosecute them as invaders.

LOL.........

hoffman
09-01-2005, 06:19 PM
It could turn into a Canadian Mogadishu.
Blackhawk down in New Orleans http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

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Deep Sea Tool Salvage

[This message has been edited by hoffman (edited 09-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by hoffman (edited 09-01-2005).]

jburstein
09-01-2005, 06:41 PM
"I can just imagine what would happen if "we" ever get a female president and have a national disaster."

Well, I can't comment on the rest of that, because I haven't followed the news closely enough, but I think it's completely unfair to attribute that to her gender. There are many many male politicians who would behave in exactly the same way. By the same token I think there are plenty of women who could handle a crisis as effectively as any man. I'm just not sure how many of them are in politics.

-Justin

CCWKen
09-01-2005, 06:59 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">There are many many male politicians who would behave in exactly the same way.</font>

You're right but they're all Democrats. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

IOWOLF
09-01-2005, 07:26 PM
"It could turn into a Canadian Mogadishu.
Blackhawk down in New Orleans "

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Hofman you just want a Blackhawk to fish for next.

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The tame Wolf !

lenord
09-01-2005, 07:54 PM
"They" are busing folks from LA into the Fort Worth reunion arena and thinking of opening something in Dallas for survivors/residents of LA.
Seems like the residents are just going to be relocated.
Radio stations/others have been out collecting money all day. Some are reporting a good take too.

It is a shame nobody has asked for help from Canada. Might be worried about a safe place to land/stay ? Some of the US rescuers have been told to stay away, gunshots. Something about a Dr. at a hospital seeing a shooting.

Gas is $2.85-3.19 a gallon in Arlington.

FWIW
Lenord

Paul Alciatore
09-01-2005, 07:56 PM
Hey, it isn't that the gov is female, it's the fact that she is a native of LA. Ditto for the NO mayor. Chicago, NY, all the rest of the cities that have a bad rep for politicians have nothing, NOTHING on LA. Remember the Longs, Huey P. and his brother Earl. Huey was a dictator. Plain and simple, a dictator. Earl once gave a press conference in a motel room, in bed, with a prostitute by his side. Politics. Politicians. I got out.

The surrounding parishes, Jefferson (my home in the 50s and 60s) and St. Bernard were even worse.

Paul A.
An ex LA and NO area native that got out.

Evan
09-01-2005, 09:02 PM
Latest reports on the news this evening from our top military dog is that we have half a billion in various kinds of aid and assistance ready to go. Our troops are not afraid of getting in harms way. Seems it still isn't wanted. From what I saw on the news a few minutes ago it looks like the government in the US is paralyzed.

Looks like they could really use our DART team at Kenner Field along side the US army field hospital.

Mcostello
09-01-2005, 09:11 PM
Hay Evan, it seems that your country is too good for us to deserve your help. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif We seem to mess up now and then.

CCWKen
09-01-2005, 09:15 PM
Naw. It's just that the US doesn't want to deplete the Canadian military by 75% for this. Might need 'em when China invades us. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

PSD KEN
09-01-2005, 09:20 PM
Being female is not the reason for wimpyness.
Katherine the Great, Maria Theresa, Elizebeth I were not afraid to shed a bit of blood.

Michael Az
09-01-2005, 09:30 PM
It is unbelievable that we don't accept help. I can't imagine why not. I also cannot believe people are now dying of thirst when water could be dropped. It looks like fima has fell flat on its face. Well, what can we expect? What government agency do we know of that works, except for our armed forces? Par for the course here. Yesterday when the president announced 400 trucks with supplys were on the way I almost fell out of my chair. Why not 4,000? If I were still hauling milk, I would probably be on the way with 6,000 gallons of fresh milk! Absloutely embaressing for us Americans.
Michael

Your Old Dog
09-01-2005, 09:31 PM
Can someone see if the Canadians can make it into Mexico? It should be a piece of God damn cake to make it to the disaster area from there. They can walk over on the back of all the other aleins coming in and not even get wet. After they've helped us they can sneak back home the same way and no one will be the wiser excepts maybe thousands of victims.

bob308
09-01-2005, 09:34 PM
canadian armed troops on u.s. ordering u.s citizens could be looked at as a forien invasion.

KENZ
09-01-2005, 09:35 PM
As far as I'm concerned the Department of Homeland Security is failure as an agency. Another taxpayer dollar shredder. That department is supposed to know how to deal with and be prepared for any natural disaster or terrorist act. IMO They are failing miserably to take control of the situation.

It goes to show that no matter how much the government says they will be able to help; you really need to have a means to be self reliant. I am on the Emergency response team for the Hospital I work at, if the reaction the government has now is the same for a future major disaster the surrounding area is screwed.

It doesn't take alot of brain power to figure out that a hurricane that is a Catagory 5 and only diminishes to a Cat4 at landfall is going to seriously mess some stuff up. It's not like this is the first hurricane to hit the US and we don't know what a powerful storm is capable of. And it's not like they didn't know the hurricane was coming.

The thing that gets me is they constantly preach on the TV have a Hurricane/disaster kit ready at all times: non-perishable food, water, first aid, etc. you get my drift. Why doesn't the government takes its own advice and prepare a large scale disaster kit. Heck they could have multiple kits prepared and stashed around the country for any type of disaster and fast deployment. There are plenty abandoned and active military installations around the country that supplies could be stored.

The DART thing that Evan describes seems like it might be run pretty efficiently. Maybe if they are called in and this whole thing is over with they can give a few pointers to the DHS

The flooding in NO, they were warned in 1998 that a major catastrophe like this, not could, but in a matter of time would happen. The state of LA asked for federal funds for better flood control and FEDs turned them away.
While NO gets the most attention there is a whole other state that has had several small coastal towns wiped out and they are in need of aid as well.

I find it amazing that we can amass troops and heavy equipment across the globe; invade an opposing country in a shorter amount of time than it has taken to get the little bit of help to the people of the south.

As a comparison the to the effort the government is making here is what the company I work for was able to do within 48 hrs. for the large hospital it has in NO and 2 other damaged hospitals it has in the surrounding area.

For the hospital in NO proper they leased 20 private helicopters, 2 blackhawks, and a 30 passenger Russian Vladimir helicopter to get supplies to the patients and staff and then ultimately evacuate all the patients and 1000 staff members and doctors that were in the hospital. Had buses guarded by police and SWAT at the Airport ready to transport everyone to shelters in Lafayette. Had pre-positioned enough food, clothing and supplies to last for an extended period.

They were also able to evac and secure the 2 other smaller hospitals in the vicinity.

The company also donated 1 million dollars to the relief effort and another 1 million dollars to aid employees.

I'm not trying to brag about the company I work for. It just shows that an agency that is supposed to rapidly choreograph a relief effort in a time of need is rather inefficient in its purpose.

Long rant over.

Evan, the reason the US Gov't won't ask for help is Texas arrogance and pride.

[This message has been edited by KENZ (edited 09-01-2005).]

andy_b
09-01-2005, 10:37 PM
i'm with KENZ. the longer this goes on the more the fools in charge look like buffoons. the possibility of NO being swamped has been discussed for DECADES!!! if they couldn't get a plan ready in that much time then what the heck have they been doing????

it truly does just show you that the only one who will help you in times of trouble is yourself.

you know, i was just reading that humans and apes share something like 95% of the same DNA. obviously the folks in charge down there are sharing about 99.999%.

andy b.

sandman2234
09-01-2005, 10:43 PM
One of the homeshop machinist from that other board is looking for some help for a good cause. Can you give him the number of where to call in Canada to get help?
David from jax

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=014119

Evan
09-01-2005, 11:00 PM
Call Bush. Our Prime Minister spoke to him personally and offered anything we have if the US can use it.

J Tiers
09-01-2005, 11:03 PM
I heard that idiot who is in charge of the Geheim Sicherheitsdienst, on NPR....

He couldn't answer a few questions put by an NPR type about how long to get basics 8 blocks from where they are being delivered. Gabbled his little bullet head off, but actually said gar nichts....

And the odd thing is that he really didn't have to defend himself.... IT"S NOT HIS PROBLEM, really.

Truthfully, I think the locals up to state level are mainly at fault.

Start with ONE line of levees, protecting a large city? With known consequences of a break.....What maniac came up with that? Even in 1740, they shoulda had more sense.

And they have had 200+ years to re-think it since as the city sank.

The GSD can't be expected to have a plan for every town in the US, against every threat. There has to be local planning.

They had a double whammy, which should have been considered as a single big whammy.

Hurricane, which everything was NOT destroyed by, followed by a flood, which is actually much more of a problem.

The issue is not considering that one begets the other, and to plan to deal with it.

That is NOT the Fed's responsibility, it is the STATE's responsibility to plan for, prepare for, and then organize and if necessary, request help to pre-pare before, and help to re-pair after.

Mere flooding they probably could have dealt with, but teh hurricane also caused the area for hundreds of miles to become totally unhelpful and useless for putting displaced people and so forth.

It's a Louisiana problem, always has been one. The fact that they did not prepare or plan effectively is why it is such a national problem now.

This is not to say that they need to handle their own problem and we won't help. Of course we will.... But it is that the scope is directly due to lack of preparation and precaution.

Some other places better take note, because its gonna happen again elsewhere.... with some differences. Won't be a hurricane, might be a flood, an earthquake, both....., or something planned by radicals claiming to be muslims.

As for Canada and helpers?

In something like the N.O. deal, with the other damage also, the problem is in having too many well-meaning people getting in each other's way. The roads in and out are limited, the environment there is very troublesome with water several feet deep, and even air activity is limited by space available.

You can figure, absolutely, that you will likely have to exist on your own for at least a week in anything like this. Some folks cannot, as a result of many things including storm or "event" damage, and they suffer or die.

It's just "triage", deal with the worst stuff first, and work out to the least. There is never enough manpower on the spot, because there is never a way to get them in fast enough.

It would be hard to do if there were NO water around.

Some folks outside teh event simply need to get a grip, and realize that not everything can be solved in a day, or a week. Expecting it to BE solved in a day or a week is unrealistic.

It doesn't help anyone to say that, and it sounds "cruel", but it unfortunately is true.






[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 09-01-2005).]

tryp
09-01-2005, 11:25 PM
Sort of a side issue, but ignorant all the same.

We were expecting the people in the US government (who owe Canadian lumber producers 5 billion dollars) to declare the illegal tarriffs dropped on lumber sent to help rebuid the flood damaged areas. Instead the government told us that the only lumber not subject to the illegal tarrif would have to be donated free of charge.

It's a real shame the arrogance of rich fat cats in the US government.

speedy
09-01-2005, 11:29 PM
Man, what a complete and utter Cockup!! Money is being raised down here also. Just today our govt has offered any and all help we can muster; the response from your administration?..."we will let you know".
What is the problem here? is the USA admin too proud. It reminds me of the Russian response to offers of assistance when their hugh nuclear sub sank.."nyet!!" and the whole lot of those unfortunate souls perished miserably!!! Is this what it will take?? thousands more good Americans perishing because the polies have their fingers up their arses and have no real plan. Was this fiasco a result of the " it cannot happen here " B`****?

It looks like there is a real nasty underclass within the community there...nasty bastards who should be shot there and then under marshall law
This has real serious repercussions for all of us IMO.
wishing, hopeing and prayers
Ken

Evan
09-02-2005, 12:44 AM
Tryp,

Last I heard the US owes us 6 billion and do not intend to pay it back regardless of their obligations under the treaties they signed. Regardless of eight rulings against them by their own people. Regardless of the fact it's against their own laws.

We'll help anyway, if allowed.

Joel
09-02-2005, 01:22 AM
Come on Evan, America is a deadbeat and Canada’s DART team could come in and fix everything? Cut us a little slack down here, please. There is something like 300 million of us and we are not all idiots. The real ‘winners’ always seem to be the ones in the news.

America has definitely not been showing its best side lately, but there is still a glimmer of hope that our government can get its head out of it’s a$$. Most of us here have no idea why there appears to be essentially no emergency contingency plan in NO. The lack of decisive action is as appalling to us as it is to the rest of the world. This is a big country and disasters happen frequently, but this fiasco is not representative of our readiness.

Obviously, all the help they can get down there should be utilized, but apparently they are too confused and/or stupid to comprehend that. We shouldn’t NEED someone else’s disaster response team. That was *supposed* to have all been taken care of long ago. Many people who should have known better dropped the ball big time. Why the government didn’t pick it right back up is currently beyond me.

As for being deadbeats, I think it is clear that historically, we certainly are not. As for the future of my country, I do worry.

Evan
09-02-2005, 01:41 AM
Sorry a bit if we sound a little bitter here. We are offering to help even while we bend over.

We are on the verge of a trade war.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 09-02-2005).]

bobbybeef
09-02-2005, 02:59 AM
The Red Cross and Red Crescent organization in Australia have just opened an account to which we can all donate. They said that goods in kind like clothing and food were too difficult to shift quickly and cash would enable them to purchase in USA what was required and the US Federal Government will ship it in.
We are still heavily committed to the Tsumani and this seems like a very similar case. Our troops and nurses went in there without weapons and a few shots were fired but noone got hurt. do you reckon the druggies are any better shots.
Once your Feds get thru the 'distributing shortages 'phase(presented in every emergency ever) they will get a system rolling that will do a mighty job.
I have worked with your Army over a few situations and have nothing but praise for the way they get on with the job given half a chance.
Might be time to think that those pirates didnt have such a good idea after all.
Relocate those few underwater states to higher ground. Think positive. lots of space in Nevada and surrounds.Give the swamp to the greenies.
bobbybeef.

John Stevenson
09-02-2005, 03:16 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob308:
canadian armed troops on u.s. ordering u.s citizens could be looked at as a forien invasion.</font>

Mexican gardners mowing US laws is also an invasion. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

We are only seeing the news here in the UK but it does seem accurate. Chilling thing is the inability to do anything.
From where I'm looking it's making America worse than any third world country.

In Pakistan, Siri Lanka, etc when they have these problems because they have so little to start with they can bounce back far quicker.

Do they have to worry about the price of gas? no because they don't use or need it in the amounts that the West has got to depend on it.
As many have said it was an accident waiting to happen and what no one has mentioned yet it was compounded by the building codes.

Allowing what is no more than wooden shacks to be built in hurricane or flood areas is asking for trouble. Then to rebuild the same way time and time again is unbelievable.

For such a rich country such as America to do nothing for their own people for this amount of time whilst in the world spotlight isn't sending a good message.

John S.

SJorgensen
09-02-2005, 04:14 AM
What we have is a huge deficit in leadership, and even worse than that we have a corrupt and really a fascist government, that is now only representing corporate interests and not that of the people. I've been focused on this since the time that I supported Bush and the war in Iraq. This deficit and the corruption of Halliburton and the pharmaceutical industry starts right at the top, and its sickness runs downstream right to every agency and to every sycophant. The Republicans will of course try to blame everything on the Democrats. They will also complain every time anyone has the balls to point out the obvious failings in their leadership or the lack of any results from their HUGE expenditures of our taxpayer dollars or the blood of our young, and running on borrowed money (which they intend to profit on again by owning US bonds!) All the while, well connected firms and people, and especially the oil industry (Bush, Cheney and Rice's particular financial interests) make profits that are truly unprecedented on the backs of a suffering and crippled nation.

I'm pretty upset and I’m also very disappointed. Bush is the worst President that the United States has EVER had. And he MUST be impeached, and this particular crisis is not even the reason why. It is not even on the chart of the reason's why. His many other failings rise to the level of crimes, and not only that, but they clearly rise to the level of HIGH crimes and misdemeanors and to criminal offenses. I’ve been researching this, and I am confident now that he will be impeached, or else our Democracy may be lost.
I would much rather worry about Clinton and Monica while the economy booms, freedom prevails and the government runs on surplus and the rule of law prevails. Instead of that, now our government runs on everything that they can get, and everything that they can borrow, and on top of that everything that they can allow the monopolistic energy, pharmaceutical, and other well connected industries to suck the life’s blood from all the working people of our country.

They’ve done it for decades to the other exploited nations, and now they are doing it to the American working class man. Don't hate America or hate American's in general. And don't hate our warriors; these boys are just the tip of a misguided spear. The problem isn't there, it starts at the top, and it belongs squarely to the Republican's and the Republican leadership in particular.


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 09-02-2005).]

hammerhead74000
09-02-2005, 04:24 AM
I was watching "The O'Reily Factor" on Fox earlier - Bill looked like he was about ready to bust a blood vessel over the lack of decisive action, and the roving gangs of thugs...

imakechips
09-02-2005, 05:15 AM
ammo- The currency for the new millenium

I voted for Bush, and I'm not ashamed to say so. He was better than the alternative. I will not vote for someone who seeks to take away my second amendment rights, nor will I support their party in any way. Without the second amendment, the people have no means of overthrowing an oppressive and tyrannical government. I firmly believe that there will be another revolution in this country, maybe not in my lifetime, but it will happen. People need to wake up and see exactly where the elected officials are taking this country BEFORE it is too late. Don't blame the poiticians for being corrupt, blame yourself(and the rest of the American people) for continuing to vote them into office. The American people have allowed and even encouraged politicians to become corrupt by putting them in office. The government needs an overhaul, with the result being new faces in the Senate and the House.

My proposal-
1. A maximum of 4 years can be served as a Senator or a Representative, no more. Once the four year term is up, they can no longer serve as either. The same thing would work at the local level IMHO.

2. The same maximum of four years should be applied to the Supreme Court justices, it would no longer be a lifelong appointment.

3. The repeal of any and all infringments upon the Bill of Rights, including, but not limited to, the Patriot Act, the National Firearms Act of 1934, and the Gun Control Act of 1968. Some provisions of this type of legislation would remain in effect, such as background checks(although with no paperwork or records filled out or kept on file) and transfer taxes. However, the gov't would NOT be permitted to spy on American citizens for any reason, real or imagined. Remember, suspicion is not the same as guilt.

4. A direct attack on any part of the original Bill of Rights is punishable by immediate execution.

5. No longer would Congress be able to vote themselves a raise, this would be voted on by the American people.

6. Closing the U.S. borders. Anyone found in the U.S. illegally would face immediate execution. Anyone attempting to enter the U.S. illegally would face the same fate.

This by no means addresses all the problems nor does it provide a solution to some of them, but it would be a fair start on eliminating some problems with the current system.

SJorgensen
09-02-2005, 05:34 AM
You must be insane. You have no grasp on real world situations of people. Do you want to kill people? Do you want to be the judge and jury and executioner? Take a break. Think about real situations and ignore the hype. Be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

Baby's need water and food. Looters may be just people trying to feed their babies.

Lee Paul
09-02-2005, 06:23 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SJorgensen:
Looters may be just people trying to feed their babies. </font>

Then again..........maybe they are "just" looters.

chief
09-02-2005, 06:40 AM
Babies eat tennis shoes,VCRs and levis???

chief
09-02-2005, 06:55 AM
Well, If we went to war in Iraq for oil where is it? Why the shortage? I guess another left wing bs story is flushed down the tubes.

bob308
09-02-2005, 07:21 AM
same question i have been asking where is all the iraq oil? i quess the same as everything is bushes fault. he caused the storm. he is the cause that the people act like animals. in the super dome last night there were 4 murders 4 rapes. un counted beatings. the night before rapes and killings. yes and when does a baby need a big screen tv to eat?
and you guys bitching about rebuilding lets wait till the water recedes frist.

J Tiers
09-02-2005, 08:51 AM
Face it, it's basically all Bush's fault.....

If he had signed the Kyoto accords, then we wouldn't have had global warming and so no wierd weather and therefore no hurricane.... So this is entirely his fault.

It's just so obvious, he didn't do enough to prevent the hurricane............


But get a life..... The disorganization problem is DIRECTLY because the LA and N.O. folks didn't plan.

It is NOT the Fed's responsibility to plan evacuations and have detailed supply plans for each and every city in the US, for each and every type of disaster.

No, that is state and local responsibility. The Feds are facilitators and providers of the means. They are not the ones with the planning responsibility for relieving every square block of New Orleans.

The State of Louisiana blew it, and blew it bigtime.

A city to which this could easily have happened at nearly ANY TIME. Via a smaller storm, a ship veering off and hitting a levee, some nut cutting the levee as happened north of St Louis in 1993, a terrorist action (who'd a thunk it?), etc, etc. So why the surprise?

Having the known threat, known for 200 years, and yet probably many people in NO didn't even KNOW they lived 4 feet below sea level.

At least the Dutch KNOW that............

Finally.......It's teh same everywhere. Every single disaster everywhere, people complain that it takes too long to get help in.

KENZ
09-02-2005, 09:29 AM
You are right that the State and local government should have had plans in place to help its citizens prepare and deal with the aftermath of a disaster such as this.

They are not supposed to sit idly by and let it all fall in the hands of the FED. However the Department of Homeland Security was formed for this type of situation.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0413.xml

It is right in there in the Mission and Strategic plan statements- They are supposed to be the Leaders.

Maybe their definition of 'lead' is different from mine. But to me, at this point the DHS should be taking charge giving the orders. To hell if it ruffles some feathers, in the long run it is going to save lives and if it were done right (declare Marshall Law) the chaos would end immediately.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience for all those involved and for those who may face a similar threat in the future.

It has certainly opened my eyes. I live on the west coast of Florida. I do try to have a plan in place and keep supplies on hand. But after seeing this it needs some beefing up for sure.

MechHead
09-02-2005, 09:51 AM
You want to fix your problems with the way your government performs? Follow my patented two step program:

1) Take a long hard look at who is getting rich off of the Bush administrations' policies

2) Call up the French government and see if you can borrow a "cup o' guillotine".

Take a look at the events leading up to the French revolution. Poverty, crime, corruption. Why? A few nobles were getting fat off the many that could ill afford to pay. Take a good look. Bush's buddies, Donald's buddies, and Dicks's buddies.

elbryant
09-02-2005, 09:56 AM
Lesson, not learned, but remembered, because I admit I had forgotten them. It used to be in all the Civil Defense flyers and was in the flyers sent out after 9/11.

1. YOU CANNOT COUNT ON ANYONE TO RESCUE YOU. We need to be able to take care of ourselves, food, wather, meds, etc., for ten days at least.
Professional planners know that many won't be prepared, but they hope if they can get to us in ten days, it will be in time.

2. Humanity is not naturally good. When you take away the structure of law and order, many will take advantage of it, knowing there will be know penalty. Loot, kill, rape, and nobody can stop it.

3. Bureaucrats don't lead. I cannot imagine FEMA ever rising to the occasion, and I doubt that homeland security would either. Both of them live to make and follow rules.

Ed

sauer38h
09-02-2005, 10:08 AM
"To hell if it ruffles some feathers, in the long run it is going to save lives and if it were done right (declare Marshall Law) the chaos would end immediately."

See, it's all simple.

Except if you ruffle local feathers, nothing AT ALL will get done. Without the locals, the feds wouldn't even be able to find downtown. Or where downtown used to be. Saving lives in the long run isn't the problem, the problem is the short run. As in, Now.

The federal government is not the cure-all. It's just another layer of bureaucracy, staffed with professional featherbedders. This is the nature of government - ALL government. It's not going to change anytime soon. As P.J.O'Rourke has pointed out, if you're waiting for the government to fix your problems, you have bigger problems than you realize.

Martial law is not quite the panacea it may seem from a distance. What is the plan, shoot a bunch of looters? No objection from me, but keep in mind that, once that gets on the news - with suitable video coverage - it would almost certainly cause race riots in LA again. Which involves looting. Then you have chaos in two cities - no great improvement.

[This message has been edited by sauer38h (edited 09-02-2005).]

Boomer
09-02-2005, 10:13 AM
A level headed view on levees?

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011540.php

KENZ
09-02-2005, 10:16 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sauer38h:
"To hell if it ruffles some feathers, in the long run it is going to save lives and if it were done right (declare Marshall Law) the chaos would end immediately."

See, it's all simple.

Except if you ruffle local feathers, nothing AT ALL will get done. Without the locals, the feds wouldn't even be able to find downtown. Or where downtown used to be. Saving lives in the long run isn't the problem, the problem is the short run. As in, Now.

The federal government is not the cure-all. It's just another layer of bureaucracy, staffed with professional featherbedders. This is the nature of government - ALL government. It's not going to change anytime soon. As P.J.O'Rourke has pointed out, if you're waiting for the government to fix your problems, you have bigger problems than you realize.

Martial law is not quite the panacea it may seem from a distance. What is the plan, shoot a bunch of looters? No objection from me, but keep in mind that, once that gets on the news - with suitable video coverage - it would almost certainly cause race riots in LA again. Which involves looting. Then you have chaos in two cities - no great improvement.

[This message has been edited by sauer38h (edited 09-02-2005).]</font>

Good points!!!

Evan
09-02-2005, 10:27 AM
What's going on in NO isn't typical. It certainly isn't typical here. When we had the firestorms in 2003 the federal government had a 1000 army troops on scene to fight the fires within a day or two. Last I heard on the news last night there are a couple of hundred US Army on scene in NO, mainly at the field hospital in Kenner.

When we had the fires they evacuated 30 to 50,000 people. There was no looting, none.

ricksplace
09-02-2005, 06:11 PM
Evan -Interesting...
When Canada had those big ice storms in Quebec several years ago, all the power was out for over a week, no phones, no police or fire, subzero temperatures, and no looting. Just folks helping each other stay warm and fed. One has to wonder if we are only hearing the bad things happening in NO, and not hearing the stories of human kindness. Might make an interesting diatribe.

ricksplace
09-02-2005, 06:14 PM
sorry -double post

[This message has been edited by ricksplace (edited 09-02-2005).]

Evan
09-02-2005, 10:15 PM
Just heard on the news that the US Gov has decided it's ok if we help. We're sending down C-130s, Air Canada is sending down planes for free evac flights and we are sending two frigates, a destroyer and a Coast Guard cutter loaded to the gunwales with supplies. Also we are sending about 1000 troops on the ships as well as helicopters.

US should have said yes days ago, they would be there by now.

Oh yeah, the troops are very well trained in peace keeping duties.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 09-02-2005).]

andy_b
09-02-2005, 10:33 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chief:

Well, If we went to war in Iraq for oil where is it? Why the shortage? I guess another left wing bs story is flushed down the tubes.
</font>

aren't there something like 150,000 troops in Iraq? just put 50,000 on each side of the pipeline and let the oil start flowing.
seriously.

andy b.

SJorgensen
09-02-2005, 11:51 PM
Chief seems to misunderstand the oil issue. Bush's interest in the oil isn't the same as the consumers (us.) Bush isn't interested in providing us in America with Iraq's oil. Bush and his family and Cheney, and even Condoleezza Rice all have large oil investments. Condoleezza even has a tanker with her name on it. They make their money by constricting oil supplies and driving up the price. So it isn't in getting the oil, it is in getting CONTROL of the oil and keeping competitive stocks off of the market. Venezuela is one of the few last oil inventories that is not under their umbrella of control.
I predicted record prices if Bush was elected. I was right.

abn
09-03-2005, 01:17 AM
From what I've been hearing it's not a problem of oil supply...but rather refining capacity. I think NPR Science Friday had a segment on it today (I haven't listened to it yet).


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by andy_b:
aren't there something like 150,000 troops in Iraq? just put 50,000 on each side of the pipeline and let the oil start flowing.
seriously.

andy b.</font>

fixxit
09-03-2005, 01:40 AM
Forwarded article:
The Red Cross was NEVER allowed into New Orleans. FEMA and the NG were no where to be seen from the people on the ground in NO, I was wondering where the Red Cross was in all this. They were never mentioned. It was like they didn't exist. And, after yesterday's drama at the convention center, the Brown and Chertoff lies, the Red Cross was still MIA. Then, earlier today, I saw a note that the Red Cross was not allowed to enter New Oreleans. Hmm, that's doesn't make sense. This simmered for a couple hours.

So I called the Red Cross and asked them if its true....


And, to my surprise, the nice lady answering the phone said it was true and they told/asked/ordered not to enter NO. She then went right into her spiel about all the other work the Red Cross was doing across the region. I said that's nice, but I still didn't understand why they weren't in NO. To my amazement, she patiently explained it to me. I even called back to verify what she said. This time she asked if I was media, I said no, just a concerned and confused contributor.

So here goes: Homeland Security (her term, not mine) told the Red Cross DO NOT enter New Orleans and says this is still effective now.

And why, you may ask? Not Security. Not worker safety. Not lack of access. It was because people would be drawn to the Red Cross food and they wouldn't want to go to be evacuated. So I asked: "The people starving and dying at the convention center yesterday couldn't get Red Cross food and water because they would be drawn to the food at the convention center, where they were, and not want to be evacuated from the convention center where no evacuations were going on or planned and all the while they are dying". (Actually, it was a couple questions.) She went back into her spiel about all of the other good work they were doing. When I asked again, she said yes, that was true. She seems relieved to admit it.

So, the question for Bushies, why was the Red Cross banned from NO when they knew people were starving?

SJorgensen
09-03-2005, 02:20 AM
These are good questions. I don't mind these questions and the thoughts of the members of this website. As an American I feel we are in a deep mess and I feel that we have no competent leadership. Republican's will try to stop the discussion. As if things will get better if only we don't discuss them. They say to just "trust" them. I say bull****.

Norman Atkinson
09-03-2005, 03:01 AM
As a member of the the largest charity of the World and a member of the Red Cross, I have watched the footage of the deaths of the old, infirm, the blacks and the underprivileged.

60 years ago, I watched the film footage of much the same. Look at the old footage and compare.

It would suggest that the Nazis were more humane.

Norman

L Webb
09-03-2005, 03:13 AM
Some of you people crack me up. You sit here and spout what you heard from reporters as the only facts.
You have to remember they are after ratings. The worse they can make it appear the more people will be glued to their TV sets.

Lay the blame where it belongs, with the state. They ordered mandatory evacuations less than 24hrs before the storm hit. The pictures of the school buses underwater floored me. Why weren't those buses put into service evacuating the projects and then parked out of harms way fully fueled and ready to go?

Many people had the means to leave but didn't. I sure have seen a lot of vehicles underwater. Who are these people to bitch about response times when they could of left ahead of the storm?

The state had no place to take or send these people. They could only say please leave. You must then fend for yourself.

Was the response perfect? No, far from it. We can only hope something is learned from this disaster to improve things in the future.

And Evan, if you have a lack of looters in your area we can certainly spare a few. How many do you want?

Les

Norman Atkinson
09-03-2005, 04:02 AM
Les,

Sorry, I know what dead bodies are like. I am a a member of the Red Cross, I am a member of the largest charitable institution in the World, I flew on rescue missions with the Royal Air Force, I helped form the local Mountain Rescue team up here in the hills. I was trained by a man of the Norwegian Red Cross who survived Dachau concentration camp.
I am still a member of my Royal Air Force Squadron- an old hard boy of 75. My people flew the biggest airborne supply drop to a city the size of Berlin. It was Berlin, it was Operation Plainfare- and we burned in the flames of worn out airplanes and battle weary men- and little boys like me trying to help.

Les, I am not impressed with television ratings but I am concerned with the plight of these sad people.

You have said, and I would agree that people were told to get the hell out of it.

How far can you you carry a stretcher in an hour? Les, I have been there- under the shells raining down. There is no where to run.There is no room for heroes- only stoic indifference- and a hope that there is a God to answer a hasty prayer.

How dare you- or anyone else play GOD?

Norman

chief
09-03-2005, 04:51 AM
SJ
I understand exactly how oil works and the system system of it. I have held shares in oil companies, oil trusts, pipelines and bulk carriers for years and have made much, much money off of them.
Bush and Cheny control nothing of the sort,
BR, SHELL and a host of others don't give a **** what Bush does.
You said the war was about oil before, ok we so the got the oil from war and now we now we jacked up the price but what good is it doing if there is no gas at the pumps or people can't afford it, Bush and Cheny aren't making a dime. I think you just spout whatever you hear on TV without putting any thought into it.
Unrefined oil is worth nothing, it only has value when it reaches the consumer's hand.

BillB
09-03-2005, 07:01 AM
Yeah, the local officials did screw up. But... Homeland Security is supposed to take control of major crises. This time, they knew where & when the disaster would occur. What if it *had* been a terrorist attack? It's hard to imagine how they could have screwed up more royally.

For the record, those levees are under the control/jurisdiction of the Corps of Engineers, as are other navigable waterways (there are canals in the middle of ((many/most of ?)) the levees). The Corps requested funds to repair or build up the levees in each of the last 3 years, but the administration denied them the budget for this each time. Where do you think those $$ went?

While I am usually inclined to look with some tolerance on the shooting of looters, this situation _is_ different. Suppose you didn't own a car to evacuate in, or didn't have anyone to stay with, or didn't have the available credit for motel rates, etc.? Suppose you wanted to stay to protect your assets, a machine shop for instance?

Fit into any of these categories and you'd probably still be there now, trying to feed yourself and your family. And you'd be in the midst of an unplanned, unexpected barter economy. Money ain't worth much if you can't buy anything with it.

If I was there, I'd be looting. You've got to have something to barter with.

And yeah, one of the first things I'd grab would be beer. For most of human history, it's been safer to drink beer than water, just like it is in NOLA right now. And what do you think would get you more food right now down there, a $20 bill or a 6-pack? Not that I think most of the people we've seen on TV figured that out beforehand, any more than the people watching did.

None of the above should be construed to mean that I oppose shooting actual violent predators. In my book, that would fall under Natural Selection, and That Is A Good Thing.

Personally, I think we should get down on our knees and beg Canada to invade us, and insist by whatever means necessary that our "elected officials" surrender immediately. If they (i.e. the rest of Canada) can get along with Quebec, they can get along with anybody. In this crisis (and recent history), they've shown a lot more common sense than our own government. (OK, it doesn't take much to constitute 'more than none', but you know what I mean.)

My $.02.
BillB

bob308
09-03-2005, 08:18 AM
never heard sso much liberal B.S. take away a persons means to defend him self and let the lotting be called ok.
it is fault of the president. we needed more oil so we invaded a country to get it. but the price was not right. so we caused a storm to rise prices.
nobody do anything for yourself. wait for the government to do it for you. then bitch if it is not done soon enough.
and yes the u.s. did nothing in belin air lift. just flew the most plaines and organized it.
nothing went wrong the best that can be done is. it is easy to set up in utah and bitch

Your Old Dog
09-03-2005, 08:49 AM
I wonder if it's normal to criticize everything when you feel desperation setting in during a disaster? Is that why the only allegation we haven't heard about Bush is how we wants to finish the Star Wars project so he can punch holes in fuel tankers and raise gas prices? All part of a plot to riches?

I'm a "Bushie" as someone mentioned. I found him a better choice then Gore or the esteemed Vietnam Vet Kerry. I support Bush in the war but like many, am very upset with his administrations response to Katrina. But I don't think he's there telling them to f-ck it up just for ****s and giggles.

I reject the notion that we have to wait till the waters dried up before we can mount our rescue effort. I also reject the notion that our government wouldd refuse admittance to the disaster area to anyone for any reason. You don't want citizens going? Make it so they don't feel the need, like you're doing the job for them.

And to you bleeding heart liberals out there, this is exactly why you ain't taken my guns from me. Not only may I need them to defend my family, I may one day need them to shoot my way past my government to help "it's a perfect world" thinkers like you out of a disaster. Our government has failed us plain and simple. Evidence of that is written on the faces of those who waited 5 days to get a bottle of clean water to drink. I guess if everybody can't have a drink of water at the same time then nobody can. We'd have to figure out if the person getting the water first was black or white.

As for the looters, it has to be stopped but I think it makes a differance if it's food, clothing and shelter or HD Plasma screens. You can't have the breakdown of society when the chips are down. And to keep the law and order for the greater, a few innocents my have to die for that to happen. (save your effort -yes, even mine. It's the occasional price we pay for living together as a civilization)

Someone else mentioned the Gen MacArthur bit about cracking the whip. I think he was right. We need someone who won't take no for an answer. Maybe this Bolton guy from the UN could do it. Most of it's common sense, if you can't drive in, fly in. If you can't land, drop it. (IT IS NOT NECESSARY DURING A DROP TO DROP IN 10 FEET OF WATER AS HAS BEEN SUGGESTED. You should be able to drop in areas where people are standing dry)

Got home from work, the wife wasn't home so I had to fend for myself. I fried up some Bacon and eggs and made some coffee. Felt guilty as hell about eating it. I later watched two reporters have near breakdowns live on the air. They were able to stand beside people where the United States of America's response units was unable to get to. I work in the media, I hate the media. As a person with a Conservative mind set it's difficult to work in a Liberal business. I never felt better about what we do than watching FOX last night.

sorry for the long one fellows but as you know, no one else to vent to. I think once my financial contribution is on the way I'll feel like I've done something.



[This message has been edited by Your Old Dog (edited 09-03-2005).]

Norman Atkinson
09-03-2005, 11:24 AM
Bob308!

My contribution referred to the Berlin Air Lift. I deliberately made a slightly confusing error. As you will appreciate, I was part of that operation and as such have first hand recollections of the situation.
The Squadron which I was a member are still under the Official Secrets Act- and the story cannot be fully told.
I would assume from your comments that these will be from your own first hand experience- but importantly from the American side of the operation.

Of course, your contribution will form part of the history of the Squadron, and the Royal Air Force, itself.

Thank you in anticipation.

2400915 Atkinson. N. Cpl.,RAF 31 Squadron,
46 Group, Transport Command, Royal Air Force(1948-1950)

Just a sort of rider.

written at just after 11AM 3rd September.
A day and time- when Britain turned to face the might of Germany.
Took a long time for the American Government to get its act together- then.

How history repeats itself.

[This message has been edited by NORMAN ATKINSON (edited 09-03-2005).]

BillJ
09-03-2005, 02:23 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tryp:
Sort of a side issue, but ignorant all the same.

We were expecting the people in the US government (who owe Canadian lumber producers 5 billion dollars) to declare the illegal tarriffs dropped on lumber sent to help rebuid the flood damaged areas. Instead the government told us that the only lumber not subject to the illegal tarrif would have to be donated free of charge.

It's a real shame the arrogance of rich fat cats in the US government.</font>

The real shame is that these tariffs benefit ONLY the U.S. lumber producers, not the U.S. people. It adds about $1000 to the cost of a house. The tariff has been found unjustifed by every NAFTA panel but is still supported by Louisiana politians.
It's a big issue in Canada because we're offended at being robbed by our more powerful neighbors and friends. I'm sure it's lower on the radar south of the 49th, but it's an offense against the American people as well as the Canadians.

Despite this, some Canadian lumber companies, CANFOR for one, have offered free lumber to help with the re-building.

Evan
09-03-2005, 02:50 PM
I live in the center of the lumber producing region of BC. Our economy is entirely dependent on the lumber business. The company that my wife manages is totally dependent on this business. Nearly all of the people in the US have no idea just how pissed off we are about the US not living up to the international treaties they agreed to. This has had a direct impact on me and my wife over the last several years. It has cost us many thousands of dollars.

The ****ing bastard fat cats are lining their pockets at the expense of people like me and you. If I ran into one of them I just might do something really stupid. They control the Commerce Department and have ignored ruling after ruling by the NAFTA panel which has a US majority on it. Now the US says no matter what they don't intend to pay back the six billion dollars that they have ripped off from us.

LIVE UP TO YOUR ****ING TREATY, DAMNIT.

Michael Az
09-03-2005, 03:36 PM
Evan, your politicians should look at our govt's past record. What did we do to the native Americans, and the blacks. They promised the American people social security would never be used for anything else. We told the Vietnamese people we wouldn't leave them. I had better stop. If they lie to their own people, why not lie to the rest of the world?
Michael

Norman Atkinson
09-03-2005, 05:11 PM
St Joan
" Yes, they told me you were fools, and that I was not to listen to your fine words nor trust your charity. You promised me my life;but you lied. You think that life is nothing but not being stone dead. It is not the bread and water that I fear: I can live on bread:when have I asked for more? It is no hardship to drink water if the water be clean. Bread hath no sorrow for me, and the water no affliction"

Not mine- but the words of George Bernard Shaw in the play 'St Joan'

Norman

John Stevenson
09-03-2005, 05:36 PM
Was this before or after he chopped all Evan's trees down ???

Fasttrack
09-03-2005, 07:01 PM
1) Everyone expects something from our government. Let's face it, you can't get it all.

2) I believe it was one of the most horrid dictators of the modern era that said, "One death is a tradgedy, one million deaths is a statistic. No government can effectively govern a nation with out adhering to this idea. What would have the Americans done in WWI after a combined allied loss of 130,000 men in only three days if the commanders were not able to see the deaths as a statistic? Given up? Gone home and said "ta hell with it"?
Unfortunantly for the unlucky, or ignorant, victims of Katrina, our government must see them as a statistic. They are concerned with not the fastest way of helping them, but the most cost effective and practicle method.

just a thought...

p.s. "Pain is weakness leaving the body"

p.p.s. Martial law vs bill of rights...

speedy
09-03-2005, 07:03 PM
So what has changed over time?? Nothing really except to say that as things get better(?) they just get worse. The bastards are still in control.

Working Class Hero (The Song)

Words and music by John Lennon.

Lyrics
As soon as you're born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool
Till you're so ****ing crazy you can't follow their rules
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

When they've tortured and scared you for 20 odd years
Then they expect you to pick a career
When you can't really function you're so full of fear
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be
Keep you doped wit religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still ****ing peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill

A working class hero is something to be
If you want to be a hero just follow me
If you want to be a hero well just follow me

Marrianne Faithfulls` version ends with
"we`re all ****ing serfs anyway"

and we always have been.

chief
09-03-2005, 07:19 PM
Whether you accept it or not it is the state's fault. The state has elected liberal govenors and mayors for years whose whole platform consisted of, "I will scam the FED from everything I can". The state waited for the FED to do the state's job. As far back a 02 the New Orleans times pointed out that poor people couldn't be evacuted in an emergency but the local offical did nothing.
On another note Nafta is garbage, The Canadian government is making money off it so too bad about the lumber, You seem to forget that the US has picked up tab the majority of Canada's air and ocean defenses.
If I buy a Canadian stock, I am charged 15% tax on the dividend by the Canadian government, The US does not charge tax on Canadian stock buyers who invest in the US.
No governement is pefect so there is no need to throw stones at each other.

JRouche
09-03-2005, 08:10 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Nearly all of the people in the US have no idea just how pissed off we are about the US not living up to the international treaties they agreed to.</font>

Nearly all the people in the US probably dont care how pissed off your people are, is more like it. JRouche



[This message has been edited by JRouche (edited 09-03-2005).]

fixxit
09-04-2005, 01:01 AM
Dutch viewer Frank Tiggelaar writes:

There was a striking discrepancy between the CNN International report on the Bush visit to the New Orleans disaster zone, yesterday, and reports of the same event by German TV.

ZDF News reported that the president's visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time. The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF.

Norman Atkinson
09-04-2005, 02:02 AM
Well Bob308, my post bag- and my Royal Air Force Squadron still hasn't got your first hand account of the Berlin Airlift. Perhaps, you were actually only proving your ability to interpret joined up writing!

Today, as Britain wakes up to face another day, another airlift is in place. If you have a diary it is 7 days after the disaster. Here is more joined up writing:-

The good old US of A is putting up "up to 40 planes" flying round the clock to aid these poor souls.

Is it just the Media making mileage of a dreadful situation? Perhaps, those who can read joined up writing will read what the Rev'd Jesse Jackson has said today.

Evan
09-04-2005, 02:34 AM
"Nearly all the people in the US probably dont care how pissed off your people are, is more like it. JRouche"

It's getting close to the point where you will notice. When we start to apply export duties on oil and natural gas it will get your attention, guaranteed.



[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 09-04-2005).]

bob308
09-04-2005, 06:58 AM
no i was not there i was not old enough. but i have read about it. now i remenber an U.S zone a british zone. a russian zone. but no canadian zone.

John Stevenson
09-04-2005, 07:03 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by NORMAN ATKINSON:

Well Bob308, my post bag- and my Royal Air Force Squadron still hasn't got your first hand account of the Berlin Airlift. Perhaps, you were actually only proving your ability to interpret joined up writing!

Today, as Britain wakes up to face another day, another airlift is in place. If you have a diary it is 7 days after the disaster. Here is more joined up writing:-

The good old US of A is putting up "up to 40 planes" flying round the clock to aid these poor souls.

Is it just the Media making mileage of a dreadful situation? Perhaps, those who can read joined up writing will read what the Rev'd Jesse Jackson has said today.

</font>


Norman,
Leave them alone, thay are busy.

Duct Taper
09-04-2005, 08:39 AM
Norman, you should be aware that a lot of people of all races don't put a lot of credibility in what Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton say or do. You just have to look at the results when they ran for President.

Probably not a good idea to use them to validify your argument.

Your Old Dog
09-04-2005, 10:05 AM
This is not ment to be argumentative but maybe we need to ask ourselves this question.

I have been very critical in that I heard we had 57 choppers flying over NO airspace. I thought there should have been 257 or more.

Anyone know for sure, in the face of extreme panic, how many choppers could occupy the area over NO without falling choppers becoming more of a threat to victims?

Also, to airlift 30,000 folks to the airport, how many planes can pass one another, stay in a flight pattern for how long before given permission to land? How much prescious fuel would be wasted as they are stacked up over NO?

Maybe we are simply Monday morning quarter backs, don't know half of what we think we know.

I could give two beans about reading books from ex-presidents and such but I'd sure would like to read one on what actually happened during this disaster. Not a Bush bashing fiasco but an account of how our country screwed up so royaly.

Norman Atkinson
09-05-2005, 02:55 AM
Well, Bob308, history is repeating itself.
As the dawn broke over a foggy England, half a million ration packs headed west.

We are assured that they will keep half a million people fed for 24 hours- and that is only a start.

As the Aussies say about Bush Tucker- they may taste like ****- but you can live on them.

The Berlin Airlift lives again!

I feel happy to pay my share of that Royal Air Force bill.

Norm

IOWOLF
09-05-2005, 06:26 AM
As of this morn. Texas closed its borders to refugees. The gov. in Iowa said we will take up to 5000 Refugees, the fun begins here also, I guess.



------------------
The tame Wolf !

bob308
09-05-2005, 10:38 AM
well norm it does not even start to pay back for all the merchat marine sailors that went down. bring supplies you. or all the arms and plaines built and sent over.

even privite citizens here sent over their own rifles and hand guns.

MechHead
09-05-2005, 01:51 PM
Unfortunately, a LOT of people north of the 49th are pissed off at Americans. However, it is special interest groups causing the trade problem, and Bush's policies reinforcing it. NAFTA is not worth the paper it is printed on. I think JRouche is correct in saying most Americans could care less if we are pissed off; but as every day goes by, there is mounting pressure on the Canadian government to rip up NAFTA and shut the power and oil off. Telling us that the US will drop the illegal tariff only on donated lumber was the final slap in the face. You think you have rolling brownouts in California and high fuel prices in the Carolinas now? You wait. Start kicking your politicians in the balls, and make them do their job. They are not elected by special interest groups, and international treaties are to be respected and honoured.

Norman Atkinson
09-05-2005, 03:44 PM
Bob308,
I quite agree. The death of one good man or woman is abhorrent to me.What you must remember is that more than two years took place between the outbreak of war on the 3rd September 1939 and the 7th December 1941. I lived through those years- and I lived to put my uniform on- before we finally had enough money to pay all our debts to the US.

Today, you Americans have more than enough on your shoulders to right the wrongs which your own people are suffering. What you must remember- and all those Allied service people who managed to return home- and now suffer from the ordeals of then- will join the words read out over my dead.
Not " Age shall not weary them- or the years condemn, etc" but those words of a beleagured and forgotten 14th Army in a place called Kohima.The parachutes of supplies were by courtesy of my Squadron.
Unarmed men fighting two enemies.
The words are from yet another long forgotten war= but those who have been involved in any war will echo:-
"When you go home, tell them of us and say
For Your tomorrow, we gave our today."

Norman

Evan
09-05-2005, 10:58 PM
If you want to know how I feel about the softwood lumber situation then click here:

http://142.179.55.85

Evan
09-05-2005, 11:02 PM
By the way, although we are sending at least a half billion dollars of aid I expect there will be no thanks. The insignia on the warships will be painted over and the troops will have to rip off their patches.

Joel
09-05-2005, 11:15 PM
Thanks Canada.

Carl
09-05-2005, 11:15 PM
From the link above:



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">WHY AMERICANS SHOULD CONSIDER HIDING THEIR LICENSE PLATES IF VISITING CANADA THIS SUMMER.</font>

Evan, you're hatred for the United States is reaching almost irrational proportions, and I am sure that the radical rhetoric above is surely going to help your cause.

tattoomike68
09-05-2005, 11:51 PM
This sounds like a good movie title.
"ATTACK OF THE WACKO LOGGERS FROM BC"

LOL

BTW (not trying to offend the fine folks in canada)

RPM
09-05-2005, 11:57 PM
Dear Norman,
Many thanks for your sobering reply about Kohima. Although i have studied WWII extensively, i had never studied this theatre. did a google on kohima and found out a lot. It would be good for some on this group who tend to be "all talk and no trousers" to check this out and see what real war is all about, and the lasting effects on all the survivors. Thank you for your part in this battle.
richard in Los Angeles

matador
09-06-2005, 12:41 AM
As a rank outsider,in new zealand,my solution would be to pull out the people that need to be rescued,put a cordon at ,say,a 100 miles,around the area,then send in the air force for bombing practice.This would prevent anyone ever building in this dangerous area again,and would get rid of the murdering scum still there in one fell swoop.If they try to escape,be ready with a 'shoot to kill"policy.To my way of thinking,those poor excuses for human beings have forfeited any right to their miserable existence.
A new city further inland would be a better option than rebuilding in the same area.But hey,that would be too simple for politicos to understand http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif.
Having said all that,I wish the best for those people genuinely displaced from what is their birthplace for so many.It must be heartwrenching to be placed in this situation,and be basically powerless to do anything about it.

------------------
Hans

dvideo
09-06-2005, 12:42 AM
For those not living near the region (which I have) there are past events in history that shed a lot of light on how things work - or don't - and why in the South.

In 1927, there was a terrible flood in Along the Ohio, lower Mississippi, and Tennessee rivers. My dad was there and saw it. High water flood conditions for 150+ days (If I recall right) and tremendous volumes of water going past NO. Water flows more in line with the Amazon - rather than the Mississippi. NO survived, but you might argue that it was somewhat at the expense of it's neighbors. That was one unintended consequence of the Levee system. You still see the thinking today.

A good book on the 1927 flood is "Rising Waters". 1927 was a profound year in American history - but people don't think about it or talk about it any more. Unknown Herbert Hoover (in the US, at least) became a hero - and well known. Ran for president and won. Race relations changed in Mississippi, and signaled a major change of city makeup in the North. A lot of finger pointing to the Corps of Engineers, who just could not seem to win.

Like I said, you see the same kinds of things going on now as in 1927. I would not dismiss some of the darker or conspiracy type comments made, either.

NO and surroundings - really along the Mississippi river - live with potential disasters of all kinds. There was the hurricane scenario - which we are seeing. there are others:

There is the "big flood" - aka 1927 scenario. Potential there is final break through of the Mississippi to unrestrained flow of the Atachafalaya river. That course change wipes out evertyhing now on the river (ie, should you buy a house with 30 Year Note in Morgan City?).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_River
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchafalaya_River

There are massive earthquake scenarios: Zones roughly along the Mississippi/Ohio River beds centered from New Madrid to Cairo. Think magnitude 8.4 and above - for years. This happened about 1812. We have family and a farm in W. Tennessee - then, too: Very Real Stuff. How do you prepare? well - whatever you do is more than is going on now...... These large earthquakes are very periodic with about 150 year periods. The ground below Ripley, TN is monitored and quake data is published on the 'net. Lots of small quakes. Since it's not CA, few take it too seriously. When it happens though, there won't be a standing bridge between St. Louis and NO. Think of something that can throw a 1-3 mile wide river 30 feet in the air....

If you condemn the NO and LA officials, then one can ask what has been done about these other types of disasters - perhaps in nearby states. May be that is a scary thing.

I have always felt that the Civil Defense / Emergency Preparedness for such disasters was a pork pot for graft, corruption, pork spending, diverted, and all kinds of mismanagment. When you need it, you really need it. Everyone knew this one was coming. Wish the preparedness had not be PO'd away...

--jerry

SJorgensen
09-06-2005, 01:05 AM
Dear Evan and other international members. There is a majority of Americans that are Democrats. We disagree with how things are being handled by our government. There are people handling the energy policy of our nation that are very intelligent people, unfortunately they are the same criminally “intelligent” people who ran Enron and artificially created the energy crisis in the West Coast in 2000 and 2001. This is Ken Lay and Jeffery Skilling, and the accountants of Arthur Anderson. This was a criminal act on a huge scale, and yet these people have not been brought to justice and they are also extremely close friends of the President. The President flew on Enron private jets during his campaign. These men also met with Cheney to discuss the energy policy of the United States, and then attempted to keep this secret. Cheney started having hunting trips with Supreme Court Justice Scalia just so he could give him a clear understanding of how he should rule on the case. Every excuse to have an energy crisis will be used. If it takes pissing off Canada, well the oil interests of Bush and Cheney are guaranteed to profit. If it isn’t energy markets, it is war material, and also drugs. Even the big power failure of August 2003 was questionable. Spencer Abrams was set to thwart that investigation. I hate to bring it up, but Bush is a member of the “Skull and Bones” and that is an exclusive club of very very well connected power mongers. All but one of the members from Bush’s year have met with him in the White House. How many of your Frat Brothers have you kept up with? Oh and by the way, the ideals of the gang are PIRACY on a global scale. Bush has very little interest in doing the right thing. He will only do that if he has to. No one in his government is ever held to account for any failures. They are only given promotions.
Republican’s still support him, but they don’t bother to look into ANYTHING! They know nothing about the Downing Street Memo, or Abu Ghraib and the connections to Bush’s decisions on torture and the Gonzales torture memo. They know nothing about the Massacre at Mazar and have not seen the documentary by Jamie Doran. They don’t know about Cheney and Rumsfeld and the part they’ve played in prior “dark” periods of American history. They haven’t heard of Margie Schoedinger, nor read any of her writing and made up their own minds about whether or not Bush raped her, or if she committed suicide or if those same people she was pursued by murdered her. Taken separately it all seems nuts, but it has a cumulative affect. You ask yourself why there is a close family connection with the Bush family and the Bin Laden family, and why they were allowed to leave the United States when all other air traffic was grounded? You ask yourself why we slowed or even nearly stopped the national effort to capture Osama Bin Laden and why he isn’t on the menu any more? We haven’t come close to capturing him and the President will not discuss him. Equally as disturbing is the fact that the Bush family and the family of attempted assassin of Ronald Reagan, John Hinckley Jr. are ALSO very closely related. It is easy to find. Bush’s brother and Hinckley’s brother were supposed to have dinner that same night Reagan was shot.

This is all too much to be made up. Explain away the facts supporting just one of these assertions. I will consider each and weight each giving Bush et al the benefit of the doubt. There is a weight of all of it though, and beyond that, the effect of the Bush presidency on my country is hard to ignore. Even the most stanch Republican would tire from the weight of it all. I think Bush is the worst president in the history of my country and I believe that if he isn’t tried under American Jurist Prudence (he is subverting the Supreme Court even now) he should be tried in an international tribunal for war crimes under international laws that the United States are signatories of. Preemptive war under contrived circumstances, and subversion of Congress is not what we expect from our “elected” (contested) representatives.
Oh yea, and the price of gas has me pissed. It will backfire on them.

PS: I forgot to mention "Able Danger" which is the CIA program which shows that the CIA had Mohammad Atta and three of the other main 9/11 Terrorists under surveillance prior to 9/11 by a year. And oh yea, and there is that presidential briefing given to Bush prior to 9/11 titled “Osama Bin Laden Determined to Attack in the United States” to which Bush did NOTHING! And while we were being attacked he read to schoolchildren because he didn’t want to upset them. He is not the man Republicans think he is.


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 09-06-2005).]

Norman Atkinson
09-06-2005, 01:21 AM
Thank you RPM for those kind and sobering words. Kohima was a battle which should have gone down in the annals of warfare. Sadly, it isn't.
My RAF 31 Squadron- also look it up- was part of the scene. My father in law was there behind the lines in Burma.
It seems odd to think that there are still survivors- and the squadron still sticks together- like "**** in a blanket".

It seems that we- male chauvinst pigs get all the mentions. We must not forget the ladies. One- Dame Vera Lynn, sweetheart of the Forces- was wanting to go over the Hump to entertain our blokes in the Burmese jungle. It's too dangerous, Miss Lynn!
Why, she snapped did you send my husband there, then? Vera flew in- Zeros galore- and joined her other half.
Lian is a Dutch lady- and honorary member of the squadron and married to one of our Dutch East India airmen- Frank. We pulled out oue best crews to fly into Arnhem- a Bridge Too Far. Lumme Lord of our squadron got his Victoria Cross- my Squadron, my Group.Lian was a little Dutch girl and was in Occupied Holland. A little schoolgirl, she tended the wounded with a risk of instant death at the hands of the Gestapo.
There are still fresh wild flowers on Lumme's grave in Oosterbeck- among the rows of white headstones!

Perhaps, I should sign this
" One of the Four who are left from my days"
God Bless.

tattoomike68
09-06-2005, 02:02 AM
SJorgensen any leftyloon nut case that buys all that crap needs to put the bong down and get some air.

thats next?..Bush has an evil hurricane generator!

lol

SJorgensen
09-06-2005, 02:24 AM
No, but he did have his part in preventing the improvements that were requested that might have prevented the flooding from lake Pontchartrain. We've spent a lot of money on emergency preparations and action and yet we have no results. My main point is that Bush has spent our money and there is very little to show for it in any respect. Iraq reconstruction? Democracy? Freedom? We are safer? Being offensive to them there, and torturing them there, makes us safer here? when those same "free" Iraqis come here? I'm not against "free" Iraqis, I just wish they weren't young men who were tortured physically and tortured sexually by Americans interogators before they sit next to me on an airplane. They were just young men swept up off the streets, abused and let go again. No cases or charges or cases were made. It makes me a uncomfortable on so many levels. They are coming to a house near you. Maybe they harbor no ill will, maybe they do. I hope we Americans will be safer, but I don't understand how. If the rolls were reversed and our country was invaded under false pretences by an invading foreign power, and our resources stolen and our young men arrested and tortured, I would hope Americans would fight back. I hope that those who harbor ill will target it against only those whose policy caused it and to those who support evil policies. It makes no sense to randomly kill innocent crowds of people. Especially in America.

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 09-06-2005).]

chief
09-06-2005, 03:21 AM
SJ,
You need to get a life, I feel sorry for you.