View Full Version : OT: A good analysis of the NO situation

09-04-2005, 11:10 AM
This is one of the better analysis of the situation in NO that I've seen yet.
An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

by Robert Tracinski
Sep 02, 2005
by Robert Tracinski
It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.

"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

" 'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

09-04-2005, 11:13 AM
Well, IMO that's total bull****.

09-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Probably a dose of bullcrap, but think of this.

We left the disabled sick, helpless people there at the mercy (none) of the lowlife types the article described. Each race has them. Self made morons/poverty stricken people who sit on thier duff trying to get a free ride out of life.

May god bless the innocent, and have justice on the cruel and inhumane.

09-04-2005, 12:10 PM
Well, IMO, the author has summed up the problem pretty well.

09-04-2005, 12:18 PM
SGW, More than likely, closer to the truth than you would like to believe. IMO.

09-04-2005, 12:53 PM
good afternoon.

i think Mr. Wayne02 has a handle on this.

what we have created is a whole class of people who believe that 'the government' is going to 'take care of them'. i cannot understand why they feel this way, but then i am a vietnam veteran, and i have a pretty good idea of how the government takes care of people.

to what Mr. 02 said, i would add that one must be ready to protect and defend his own, because the government sure as hell isn't going to do it. a few well placed rounds would have stopped the raping, looting, and barbarism in it's tracks. perhaps you think that is harsh, but what these animals were doing to other people is pretty harsh too. we have been too damned busy being 'politically correct' to retain sight of plain old fashioned values and responsibilities. *i* am responsible for the protection and defense of my children and my home. so are you.

and if you sit back in front of your tv and ignore this fact, you are the lawful [or not] prey of the animals we are discussing.

now thay have brought 154,000 of these people who didn't have any better sense than to get the hell out of the way of a hurricane to Texas. you may be assured that my sons and i are completely ready and able to defend our home, both against 'them' and anyone or anything else that threatens it.

it has been said that some of these people had no way to evacuate. most of the ones i have seen had 2 feet and were ambulatory. why couldn't they walk if they had no other way to go? the high ground is the high ground regardless of where you are. no one but a fool would stay in a city that the majority of is below sea level in the face of a category 5 hurricane or any other one for that matter. i am certain that those few of the residents of new orleans who were unable to walk *could* have found some way out had they been interested in doing that.

it is long past time to quit saying 'it isn't going to happen here' because it is happening everywhere. hide and watch. the probl;ems of new orleans have been shipped elsewhere, but they will be the same old problems unless we as individuals do something to prevent it. it is long past the time for tolerance of the kinds of behavior that we have seen so recently. the government isn't going to 'be there' for the people who have inherited these problems any more than it was there for the residents of new orleans.

if i piss you off i am glad because people need to be pissed off and do something about it before it is too late.


09-04-2005, 12:55 PM
And I would expect the writer has a "solution".


09-04-2005, 01:44 PM
Gene, Why would you expect the writer of the article to have a solution?

09-04-2005, 01:46 PM
Heard on the news a few days ago the statement:
"How could this happen here in this great country" The answer is that we are not as great as we think we are. This situation ought to be a big reality check on how we've messed up the greatest country in history by going away from our traditional values and practicing socialism and communism instead. When things were fubar on the beaches of D-Day, the side with the can-do attitude prevaled. Now all we hear is "the government isn't taking care of me like they ought to" Notice much difference in this crises between how we've handled it vs. how the soviets handled problems? It is only going to get worse until we figure this out.

09-04-2005, 01:46 PM
Walk a mile in the man's shoes-----

Not as a tourist, but, having caught more than one helicopter out of Grand Isle to the oil platforms, played engineer on two six month projects in Nuawlins and visited same while in the spring vacation phases of my college drinking days, Wayne02 has very politely penned an accurate take on an ugly situation.


09-04-2005, 04:38 PM
Sometimes some of the retoric I hear sounds like some of these speeches. And yes I can and will forever point out the similarities of what I have been hearing of late.
Enjoy. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif


09-04-2005, 04:42 PM
And the people said Amen brother. The liberals folks want to bitch and moan about it being the presidents fault he didn't do something more. I have done my best to avoid saying the exact same thing the author said, but I have said it was the fault of the folks that stayed behind that they were left in the mess the were left in. Wise up folks, you and you alone are responsible for your own safety, not the govt of the city, state, or federal govt. If you sit on your butt and let someone take care of you, then you will be left to the mercy of the situation which is what occurred.

The author is 100% correct in the fact that the melay was created years ago and was just unleashed by the aftermath of the storm. The city planners built the levees back to only withstand a class 3 storm and had no plan to comepletely evacuate the city. They had 4 days notice of the approaching storm and sat back and did nothing to get everyone out. You give me 4 days notice and I could move everyone out of my city including the infirmed and the hospitals. Anyone left behind would choose to stay like so many did and would be left on their own to survive which is what happened. In 4 days they could have moved the criminals out if they chose too. So like I have been saying, quit blaming anyone but the ones at fault. I believe it was the Democrats that started welfare and kept it going. It was those same Democrats that cry out why didn't someone else do something as well! Truth hurts I guess.

09-04-2005, 06:44 PM
Wayne is correct.

I know because I worked as an inner city paramedic for years and we spent a lot of time responding to the projects.

I have been doing CPR on someones grandma in a filthy rouch infested apartment when one of the "chillins" asked me for free condoms.

I have picked grandma up out of a shotgun house lying in so much filth that we left a trail of maggots behind the stretcher.

I had a windshield busted out by a brick while responding to a call.

I have been surrounded by a threatening angry mob for waiting for backup before entering a multi-story project where one of our crews was attacked a week before. The call was for a kid with a tick on his ear.

All calls were for "chest pain" because they have learned that it is an emergency no matter what kind of trivial **** we roll for.

There was a McDonalds at the hospital so they would insist on being transported to the hospital and then we'd see them buying a hamburger later.

I worked at an indigent care hospital (ICU) and had them ask if we could keep grandma on the vent a few more days so they could get the check.

They'd swarm the unit on the 1'st trying to get grandma to sign the check even though she was on a ventilator.

I'm not political, I don't like Bush or Kerry or Sonny Perdue. The only things I care about are the school board and the city council and local leaders.

40 years of public welfare has created a criminal underclass clustered in cities all around the country.

I doubt if a lot of you know anything about how things work in the inner city.


Anyway, I got an Aloris tool post for my 13" Southbend http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Deep Sea Tool Salvage

09-04-2005, 07:08 PM
I am in contact with a "sister" church of ours from New Orleans. It appears that working together, they all got out of New Orleans, except one they could not contact. After evacuating, they were still in the area hit by the hurricane and one was killed. They held church today in the home of one of the members' relatives. They have a generator and a working cell phone, and all are taking care of one another. No government help.

Another two church groups in Northern Louisiana set up as shelters. One of them got a bunch of families from N.O. The other got a bunch of "single guys." The former was OK, but the latter started tearing everything up, fighting, and stealing, so they had to get the police in to run them out. Undaunted, they cleaned the place up and asked for more evacuees, just not single men. They got the evacuees from an institution for Down's Syndrome, and are glad to be able to help them.

Anecdotally, much of the article Wayne02 quotes appears to be true. Some are civilized. Some are not. Some are real victims and need another person to care for them.

I have to say that I was struck by the entitlement mentality expressed by some on the news. One, particularly, fumed that it had been two days (in MS) since the water was down, and "Where the hell is FEMA, I want them here! My house is ruined, and I want a trailer here NOW!"

All that said, I predict that when all the shouting is over, and we are far enough away from it that we aren't taking positions just for political points, we will see three big elements.

1. All the plans count on the "first responders," the local authorities, to bring the situation under control. The first responders here didn't. Probably they couldn't, but it sounds like they were led by somebody who didn't have the "can-do" spirit that was needed.
2. Once it became clear that the first responders couldn't, the plan wasn't abandoned. Bureaucrats have a hard time dumping the rules, and it was not clear that the cavalry had to be called in, not as followup, but in the first-responder role.
3. Individuals were not prepared. Emergency authorities say it all the time, plan to be on your own for ten days after a catastrophic crisis. Some are prepared, and they are still in their homes and plan to be there until the water drops. It was in MS more that the prepared were in trouble, because their houses blew away.
>>>>>But nobody is prepared if they think it is somebody else's job to take care of them.<<<<<

09-04-2005, 07:12 PM
"Anyway, I got an Aloris tool post for my 13" Southbend."

Did you pay for it with the money you saved by switching your car insurance to GEICO?

Here's another "must read" on the situation in NO:

One excerpt: "Where have we gleaned the arrogant belief that if we suffer from a natural disaster, it must always somebody’s fault?"


09-04-2005, 07:18 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by winchman:

One excerpt: "Where have we gleaned the arrogant belief that if we suffer from a natural disaster, it must always somebody’s fault?"


Didn't you get the memo? There are no acts of God any more. We're in charge of the planet, and if something goes wrong, it's up to us to find who to blame. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

[This message has been edited by elbryant (edited 09-04-2005).]

09-04-2005, 07:21 PM
The Aloris is a CX piston type. It's made for 14" up but I think It'll do.

09-04-2005, 08:15 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cntryboy1289:
The liberals folks want to bitch and moan about it being the presidents fault he didn't do something more.</font>

then it must Bush who is the offending liberal, after all he's in his second term and the welfare state persists.

It is soooooo tiresome that so many try to delineate every single bloody potentially good conversation into an us/them rant.

It is naive to view this in black and white terms of right/wrong/ liberal/conservative, republican/democrat. They are politicians for gods sake, they will speak out of both sides of their mouths in an effort to attract votes. They all crowd the centre with their actions (words not withstanding) and none have the virtue to capture thinking men’s blind faith. there's a S**T & fly analogy to be had there somewhere.

I am the most right wing person you will every meet, from a monetary, fiscal, social, justice, etc position, but I swear there's group of peeps around here that think the definition of liberal is " someone who's view point the poster disagree with.

Besides, wouldn’t the world be a better place if everyone just thought for themselves rather than follow preordained rhetoric?

09-04-2005, 08:56 PM
I cannot figure this one out. The cable news networks are running it 24-7 while ABC, NBC and CBS are running sitcoms, soap operas and reality shows.

They're saying 10's of thousands dead, a major US city drowned for the next 9 months. WTC had 3,000 killed, 2 buildings down and every airwave was filled with that for a month.

I know how news works; the further you are from an event, the bigger it becomes. When we get a little 'wake-me-up' earthquake here or a mediocre mudslide there, California is sliding into the sea according to the media.

I see a concert to benefit NO and some rat-star goes political. The same for the talking heads; how serious can it be if they can so readily fashion it into another political brick to be gleefully thrown in a mudfight only they care about?

Are the cable news outlets just hyperventilating or are the major networks on Valium? Forget the politico talking heads, how serious is this thing really?

I'm not asking sarcastically; I really don't know what to make of what I see and hear. I'm developing a serious case of cognative dissonance.


[This message has been edited by Mariss (edited 09-04-2005).]

09-04-2005, 09:04 PM
That article nails it right on the head.

09-04-2005, 09:04 PM
So now that we are all done complaining about the problem . How do we then solve it so it will not happen again???

I believe it is time to lessen the role of our government in the every day lives of the population. It is time to make people learn how to be self suficient.

Remove the welfare state , fire staff in misc agencies, keep the only things listed in the constitution as the priorities of our government and cuit everything else.
Does it sound tough??? What happens when you try to take power away from a bureaucrat??? It gets real messy.

Frank Ford
09-04-2005, 09:13 PM
Where are the resources that could have alleviated this disaster? Where is the $$$, food, medicine, medical and military personnel that we need in abundance during this crisis? Why do we not have adequate national and regional planning for earthquake, tsunami, hurricane and other disasters?

Why, in this Land of Plenty, is there such a wide and increasing disparity between rich and poor?

I think it's rather simple, really. Follow the money and the power. We have a government (sadly, not just this current administration) that spends billions on bogus plans and wars to "prevent terrorism" while actually and predictably whipping up more anger among those who dislike our foreign policy and resent our intrusion.

In fact, national health issues, poverty, education, natural disasters and even simple highway traffic present far greater and more immediate dangers to our people.

But it is clearly in the interest of the administration to keep us fearful and focused on "the enemy" outside. We're very easy to control that way, and less likely to notice the manipulation going on. . .

09-04-2005, 09:46 PM
You obviously don't get it. It's THEIR fault!!! Whomever they may be!!! :P

09-04-2005, 09:55 PM
Trust me. I have been to involved in looking over the issues, knowing that what happened there affects our communities e-Planning. From all I have seen, the fault lays much lower to start than the feds. I say this as a Mayor of a city. I know the bucks stops with me in a situation like this.

As I said, th buck stops with me, and the buck starts with me. That is all I will say.

09-04-2005, 09:59 PM
I have the solution but doubt very seriously most of you will want to hear it. Each man is responsible for himself and his family. I thought that was the way it was but when you turn the tv on you see thousands of people screaming "Why ain't ya'll done anything for me?" I know the feds will be the ones on the hook to rebuild the city of NO but I cannot see spending billions of dollars do it just so it will all happen again. I think if you had insurance and the company pays you money to rebuild it, then that is fine. If the federal govt has to spend a dime to relocate you or to build you a new apt building to live in, then that is bullsh*t. If you want to live, you must produce some kind of work and not sit own your butt while everyone else takes care of you. That one will fly over like a ton of lead for sure.

Whatever happend to the colonial days when the settlers put folks in the stocks and didn't feed them when they wouldn't work. If a man wants to eat, let him go out and gather it or buy it by making the money to do so instead of relying on you and me to make sure he gets his check each month. If he wants a place to lay his head at night, let him build his own house or have the money to pay someone else to build it for him.

That would solve everything, but there are folks that will never allow those days to return. That is the solution that we all could live with, but instead the good folks of Texas and the surrounding states just got a little bigger because they will be the ones that have to find most of those folks that got bussed over to them a new place to stay and give them their checks for groceries from now on and give them money to buy clothes because they won't be returning to NO since no one there cared about them as has been their very own words so far. Guess the truth of the matter is that no matter what, we all continue to pay the bills for them like we have been doing for years.

09-04-2005, 10:04 PM
Oh yea, almost forgot about this one.
Mcgyver, do you really think Bush was president when all of this got started? If you think back, it was way back when the govt began giving out govt subsidy checks which made a certain group of folks sit back on their butts each day and relax while the rest of us went to work each day to pay taxes so they could do nothing. I remember when I was in school there were girls that got pregnant so they could get more money each month so they could buy more than usual. That certainly isn't Bush's fault.

09-04-2005, 10:36 PM
Hey guys, I'm normally not a big fan of the whole "blog" phenomenon, but this guy's is pretty interesting. Near as I can tell he owns some sort of IT type business in NO and has somehow maintained communication with the outside world throughout the disaster.

09-04-2005, 10:45 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Mcgyver, do you really think Bush was president when all of this got started? .[/B]</font>

no, but Bush was merely window dressing and was incidental to the point of the post...which seems not to have been worth making

09-04-2005, 10:55 PM
And here is what happens when your local leadership functions more like it should.

From http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories...emines001.shtml

Plaquemines readied to be alone

Southernmost parish mostly inundated by waters from river and Gulf

Advocate staff writer

Plaquemines Parish officials knew if a big hurricane ever hit here, they would be on their own for awhile.

"We approach it that way," said Parish President Benny Rousselle. "We approach it that we have to do it on our own."

Although federal or state help is needed for supplies, so far, Plaquemines Parish officials seem to be making it work.

Rousselle said it's all because people who live in Plaquemines Parish know the dangers and train to respond to hurricanes.

"We plan for this all year long," he said. "I've evacuated this parish a couple of times already."

Anyone who was willing to help was deputized Friday, and even people who had been pulled off their boats in Empire the day before were out helping the parish move tug boats and equipment the next day.

"We have no looting going on. We have no gunfire, and we're getting the water out," said Sheriff Jiff Hingle. "I just think we're much better organized and using our resources better."

It had been a long week for officials who are running short of gasoline and diesel, the two things that are needed to operate heavy equipment, drainage pumps and the many boats sheriff's deputies need to patrol the now-underwater parish.

Rescue boat patrols started about 2:30 p.m. Monday while the winds were still at 40 or 50 miles per hour, Hingle said. Five air boats were launched and came back with 51 people on their first trip. By the end of the day Friday, no more refugees were being brought in, and anyone left on their boats in hard hit areas were told to get out. Sheriff patrols and stations in the lower part of the parish were instituted to help keep looting and other problems to a minimum.

"Our biggest problem is that we have no communication," Hingle said. "If I want to talk to him and he's across the street, I have to drive over there. If I'm trying to reach a deputy that is 50 miles away, I can't do it."

Although the challenges of getting a parish running again after a storm like Katrina are daunting, the people of Plaquemines Parish for the most part are pulling together with their combined resources to make it work.

Rousselle said he's heard people say that Plaquemines Parish won't recover or rebuild after this storm. He disagrees.

"We will rebuild the parish, but it will take some time," Rousselle said.

As of Friday evening, the parish had received no federal or state supplies but were still able to keep the kitchen running and provide generators for necessary centers. The only aid they reported receiving is from New Iberia Parish, which sent over trucks of ice, water and generators.

That evacuees were being bused to other parts of the state and no one was being let into the parish without authorization of the parish president or sheriff helped the recovery situation.

"The problem is everyone wants to get home," Hingle said. What people don't realize is the extent of the damage and that the area has no services -- no electricity, no running water except parts of Belle Chasse, and medical attention is scarce, he said.

The no-entrance policy includes evacuees from New Orleans.

Friday afternoon, Rousselle said the parish was being asked to accept New Orleans evacuees. He said he was told they would be flown into the naval base and then put on airplanes to be flown out, and in no way would they be bused through the parish.

An angry Hingle and Rousselle said that the parish has received no assistance from state, federal or nonprofit agencies and that it was too much to ask to have Plaquemines Parish officials take care of other parishes' problems as well.

09-04-2005, 11:14 PM
Mcgyver -- here's one that appreciated your post

09-04-2005, 11:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cntryboy1289:
If you want to live, you must produce some kind of work and not sit own your butt while everyone else takes care of you. That one will fly over like a ton of lead for sure. </font>

didn't you mention that you were on disability right now? I don't say that to be cruel, am I'm sure you can't wait to be off it, but your statement is hypocritical for someone on disability.

Unless you are just living on personal wealth, disability, whether through an employer, gov, insurance or union is a left wing, liberal, socialist idea. Everybody is forced to pay into the pot so that those that are having hard times don't starve. That is a social safety net and brother, sounds like it caught you. How can you make all these let the strong survive and let the weak perish remarks while on disability?

I have no beef with you being on it, I wish you a fast recovery, and I'm sure you've worked hard and done your part, but aren't you glad it was there when you needed it? Maybe it’s the horrible way social security systems are administered that bugs you, rather than the fact that its there? Haven't both Republican and Democratic gov's had ample time in office to change it? Yet you seem to view them as either wearing black or white hats. Personally I don't think any of them deserve my loyalty.

I can never take advantage of such things, and thus am truly in a position to bitch with virtue and oppose liberals like you supporting socialist values. You should be a good conservative and send those cheques back and starve in the wilderness http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Mcgyver (edited 09-04-2005).]

09-04-2005, 11:27 PM
It is a funny thing.. the folks on this board who boast how self reliant they are don't realize that very same self reliance is a product of our so called welfare state.A society that provided public roads, schools and the infrastucture that enabled the American middle class to enjoy a standard of living that is the envy of most of the world. That infrastructure was paid for by the taxpayers and was built by the working people of this country.. people of all colors and nationalities.. and almost all immigrants I might add.

I find it odd that some choose to complain about the welfare monies given to US citizens but don't complain about the huge amounts of taxpayer money that is being spent to shore up corrupt and RICH oil families in the gulf. The rich folks learned a long time ago how to keep the American working people under control.. use the race card to keep us fighting amongst ourselves for crumbs, blame the poorest for all of our problems and wave Old Glory so we will send our sons and daughters off to war to protect their interests.

Frank Ford
09-04-2005, 11:34 PM
What dhammer said!

09-04-2005, 11:37 PM
Mcgyver, you didn't hurt my feelings to ask about it. I am on my pension+social security and yes I can't wait to be able to get back to work. I have been disabled since working a fire back in 1999. After 4 surgeries in 6 years and still not being able to hold down a 40/week job and no hope in sight of returning to work, I am forced to live off the returns of my labor. I paid into my own retirement system as well as social security and my own retirement savings so I don't feel like I am being a burden like someone that has never worked or has worked very little in their life drawing a welfare check. I atleast paid into the state retirement system and social security more money than most of those folks down there have ever made in their lives. If I could, I would gladly return to work and hopefully one day I can and will do judt that. I do still have the responsibility of taking care of myself though and do that without having to rely on someone to do that for me. If my house was destroyed tomorrow, I have insurance that would rebuild the house and give me a place to stay until that time unlike most of the folks in NO. Reckon how many of them have flood insurance which is what will be required to rebuild their homes since it was a flood that destroyed most of them and not the winds? It is required by a lot of mortgage companies now adays if you live in the flood plane.

[This message has been edited by cntryboy1289 (edited 09-04-2005).]

09-05-2005, 12:08 AM
We have brought this upon ourselves,People are crying about more military aid and equipment but the same people scream bloody murder come tax time.
People are horrified about the looting murders and rape but demand liberal,weak judges and gun control.
People bemaon the poor but no one goes to the school and says " that teacher is a fool, fire her, my kids aren't learning".
People snivel that there is no health care but have kept Ted Kennedy in the senate for 40 years, he only cares about health when he needs ths vote, once he gets it, he forgets about health and blocks others attempts because he's afraid he'll lose an issue to complain about.
People whine about the dikes collapsing but send dollars to environmentlists who turn around and fight every improvement the government attempts.
The government owes you nothing except to defend you from enemies. Get out and vote
instead of trying to fix the blame or make rdiculous statements. None of the morons involed will admit they are at fault even if you presented factual evidence.

09-05-2005, 01:21 AM
Interesting that Portland, OR is setting up a shelter where 1000 evacuees will be temporarily housed and fed. On the news they keep hitting on the message that people should stay away from the evacuees and just send money. According to the news it will be for several months. I'm left wondering why these evacuees are being prevented from becoming involved with the local community and what they are expected to do in the meantime.

I'm curious about how much of the 9-11 money still hasn't been applied yet. At one point the Red Cross was asking for permission from donors to use the 9-11 money for other disasters. Any more I get really nervous about large organizations asking for large amounts of money that doesn't get accounted for when the dust settles. I'm getting very distrustful of middle men.

So far the response I've been most motivated to support and participate in is our local church putting together personal hygiene kits for targeted groups of evacuees and newly homeless. Also, FEMA recently went to Society of Manufacturing Engineers and other industry organizations to ask companies and individuals to register materials, equipment and services available as donation or for fee so that FEMA could locate needed resources more quickly. I feel a lot better about going this route as the efforts will be most likely to go where needed.

09-05-2005, 03:29 AM
The situation we are witnessing now, results from policies seemingly from long ago. The time actually past is but a mere moment in the timeline of human existance.


[This message has been edited by Carl (edited 09-05-2005).]

Jack Burns
09-05-2005, 05:06 AM
"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people [blacks] are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature [genes], habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:72

I couldn’t agree more.

And this from the ‘great emancipator’ Mr. Lincoln:

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." (Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from Abraham Lincoln: Complete Works, 1894, Vol. 1, page 273).

"Why should the people of your race be colonized, and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated." (Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Vol 5, page 371).

"I will say, then, that I am not nor have I ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race." (4th Lincoln-Douglas debate, September 18th, 1858; Collected Works. Vol. 3, pp. 145-146).

Jack Burns
09-05-2005, 05:28 AM
Oh, and by the way, TOPCT (Gene), I’m growing increasingly concerned about your mental health: How do you ever manage to get a moment's sleep with all those evil Nazis apparently lurking behind nearly every bush? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

09-05-2005, 06:28 AM
Conservatives bitch about social programs. My experience with these people is that they are the first one's in line to get their fair, and sometimes wholly unfair, share of any type of government handout. Don't even get me started about people in the military bitching about liberals. First off, the military of today is a jobs program intended to keep minorities off the street, period. Plus I don't see any of these people handing back their retirement check, and liberals created their cushy lil retirement program, and it's just as much if not moreso an entitlement program than any other. That is just one of many examples of people living off the government and calling themselves conservatives, when they are nothing of the sort. They talk the talk about self reliance and personal responsibility, but get their greedy little fingers in the cookie jar at every opportunity, and well ahead of all the social program recipients they claim to abhor so much. The longer I live, the more I am convinced that these people are motivated by one thing and one thing only, pure greed. They don't want a tax cut, that's not good enough, they want the entire pie, theirs , yours and mine, and don't give a damn if everyone else in this world starves to death. It's extremely obvious just from reading these forums for awhile.

This so called "conservative" mindset , which is nothing of the sort,hasn't changed since the late 20's , when, after having 3 straight "conservative" presidents,and 19 yrs of a congressional majority, they ran this country straight into the ground, to the point of fiscal bankruptcy and political anarchy, and then threw their hands up and did nothing to fix it, because they couldn't mentally accept the fact that their ideas had failed, and were paralyzed into inaction by fear. Fear of what you say? Fear of the population stringing them up with the nearest rope maybe?
At that time they had their ne plus ultra, the conservative eutopia of more deregulation, tax cuts and freebies to large corporations and rich people than in the wildest dreams of the so called " conservatives" of today, and it fell flat on its face, taking the whole country down with it. Their ideas haven't changed one iota since those days, as witnessed by the tripling of our national debt by the Reagan administration over 8 yrs, while the budgets asked for, and passed by congress exceeded what mr Reagan asked for by 0.6 percent in the same time period ( source, congressional record, read it sometime and watch the right wing BS about who created this debt fade into insignificance , there's no way to put a spin on that).
Just because the radical reactionary right in this country has taken to calling itself "conservative" does not make it fact.
People like Lincoln and Theordore Roosevelt, who were true conservatives, would roll over in their graves at the thought of the extremist right representing itself as conservative in this country today.
Burns, the only good nazi or nazi sypathizer is one with a bullet through his brain, in which case I'd say you qualify for the two cartridge discount.

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 09-05-2005).]

09-05-2005, 07:09 AM
Why don't you come to where I am at and tell all the boys here the service is nothing but a jobs program? In my thrity years in the service the worst,most ****ed trooper that I ever commanded would no doubt stand head and shoulders above you, you cowardly little ****.
I have found that most of the people who run down the service are people who were too gutless themselves to serve.
When is the last time you spent Christmas ten thousand miles from home,you never have You park your fat ass in front of the TV
and bitch about your favorite football hero.

09-05-2005, 07:22 AM
Chief, not that's its any of your business, but I spent two christmas's about 14000 miles from home 35 yrs ago, not by my choice,and when I got home, I got out, and I didn't spend the next 35 yrs of my life crying and whining about how tough I had it, or expect a lifetime free ticket from the US government over it , unlike you it seems.
PS, from what I see here, i'd bet most of the guys I served with would twist your head off just for grins. Your'e a whining crybaby that expects the entire world to fall at your feet because you took a job working for the US government. So you're 10,000 miles from home on christmas. That was your choice. You chose to stay in the military, I'm guessing like most, because outside of it you had no job skills and no future without it. It was your choice to reenlist. If you don't like the outcome of your choice do something about it. For someone who professes to be a conservative, that's an extrely liberal viewpoint, blaming your choices on someone else.
I notice you didn't say a word about anything else substantive in my post. Truth hurts? out of ideas? thats a typical conservative, all they can do when faced with facts is call names and make excuses.

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 09-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 09-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 09-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by pete913 (edited 09-05-2005).]

09-05-2005, 09:20 AM
I didn't whine about anything,I have never once complained about the 29 out of 30 christmas' I spent away from home or about the steel left in my back from may 1970 in Cambodia.
Are you jealous that after 20-30 years of employment someone gets pension? Why do you think that as a civilian you rate a pension or a social security check? These kids here
are as good as any I served with in Vietnam
and I don't need some angry little whiner to run them in the ground.
Btw, Your tax dollars got me a degree in engineering, a $3000 a month retirement pension and $1700 a week paycheck as a government contractor, thanks.
Your post has nothing of substance, I suspect you are angry at the world because
you can't get on welfare.

09-05-2005, 09:54 AM
Whoa, Hold on their Boys!
Check your posts... Oddly enough you've both claimed the same basis to go on a defensive aggressive assault of each other; namely long service for the benefit of yourselves and others. You both are to be thanked for your caring and service to the greater world and I implore you and all to remember why we all are here on this board...to share and enjoy fellowship and knowledge and occasionally support from our fraternity.
May God bless you all and those whose lives have been torn asunder by this and any disaster.
Humbly Yours, Will A.
p.s. Is there a minimum length a 14" belt can be set up when restoring a 1921 lineshaft driven lathe?

09-05-2005, 10:53 AM
I have a question for you military guys.

Why exactly would anyone in their right mind volunteer to crawl through the mud, get shipped all over the world, and get shot at while fighting someone else's battles? I can understand signing up after something like Pearl Harbor, but not so the U.S. government can ship me out and get me killed on some dumb assed United Nations peace keeping mission in B.F.E.

The premise that Bush sent troops to war with Iraq over has already been disproven. No WMD's found. Why are Americans still over there getting killed? Bush sent troops into Afganistan hunting bin laden. Where is he? Why haven't they found him yet? Are they even looking? Did someone do the smart thing and put a bullet in his head then bury his corpse with pig guts? Why didn't Clinton send in some "security forces" and pop him before he could cause 9/11?

Do you really think that the U.S. government gives a rats ass about you or anyone else in this country?

The government wants to divert attention away from itself and onto something else, meanwhile it is gradually chipping away at our rights and freedoms.

The article that is the subject of this topic was exactly on target! I also believe that if they are running around robbing, raping, and pillaging, then they were fully capable of leaving before it happened. If they continue to piss and moan, those troops should have plenty of ammo and I'll send them some extra if they'll give me an address! Let them ease the burden on taxpayers! While they're down here, have them patrol the Rio Grande with orders to shoot on sight(and not necessarily after they've crossed either).

09-05-2005, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure that race has much to do with it. From what I see the dependence mindset is alive and well in many different races all across our country. Even in middle income America... it's just packaged more pretty there than it is in some of the more poverty stricken areas.

In fact it's alive and well in my own neighborhood. One of my neighbors is a white single mother of a teenage daughter. She is on some sort of public assistance, has been for as long as I've known her.

She is perfectly capable of being a productive member of society, but is caught in the cycle of dependence (by her own choice). She inherited the house from her mother and pretty much lives the usually life style - home ownership, two cars, satellite tv, etc.

She is a nice women and all, but her entire mindset is one of dependence, not Independence. She thinks it's "normal" for the government to take care of her, instead her taking care of herself.

If there were some sort of disruption of the monthly check, she would completely freak out and begin the blame game within days. If there were a natural disaster she and her daughter would be on our doorstep in a matter of hours. And yes, we would take them in and provide help, but it doesn't have to be that way. She is capable of being prepared and taking care of herself for the most part.

We have had several conversations about this issue, and the dependence mindset is so ingrained that I doubt she will ever change.

She likes to tell me that I am so "lucky" to have so many toys - shop, rv, etc. She doesn't seem to get that "luck" has very little to with it, hard work has everything to do with it. I have told her many times that I make no apologies for whatever "toys" I own. They are all paid for and I worked my tail off for many years to obtain them.

What really frosts me is the comments she makes about my wife being so "lucky" to have a good paying job. Hmmm, see a pattern here? There's that word again - "luck". My wife has busted her butt to get to where she is at in her profession. She has initiative, drive, and work ethic. She makes a concerted effort to improve her earning potential by increasing her job skills on her own dime.

I think the dependence mindset is present in most all races, and in many parts of our country.

09-05-2005, 12:44 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by imakechips:
I have a question for you military guys.

careful, discussing things like this is liable to resort to nasty things like name calling. I've seen several people call the "L" word here. If you disagree with them or the war, apparently you must be, dare i say it, a liberal. hurts like a pointy stick, so make sure you toe the line and don't question or discuss this stuff

Wayne, I like that independent/dependent mindset differentiator - it cuts through all the political crap and identifies the core issue. not everyone every time is going to be able to be independent, but the mindset can be. it has nothing to do with conservative, liberal, republican, democrat etc. With people, you get what you reward and measure...most would agree we'd be better off with a system that encouraged an independent mindset.

If I had to identify the one thing that makes me mental about Canada its this national midset of not having to be responsible for ones self, guess its not just a Canadian problem

[This message has been edited by Mcgyver (edited 09-05-2005).]

09-05-2005, 02:24 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If I had to identify the one thing that makes me mental about Canada its this national midset of not having to be responsible for ones self, guess its not just a Canadian problem</font>

Just ask the former Soviet Union.

09-05-2005, 03:00 PM
What was different THIS time?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.</font>

Hurricane Betsy 1965:

A classic Cape Verde storm, Betsy formed in the tropical Atlantic and wandered across the Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico over a period of fourteen days. On September 9, 1965, Betsy was in the southern Gulf of Mexico and gaining northerlymomentum as it approached Louisiana’s coast. In addition to gaining forward speed, the storm was intensifying as it moved toward land. Mid-afternoon on September ninth,
“Navy reconnaissance aircraft indicated the storm was intensifying and had a central pressure of 28.00 inches” (USACE 1965, 4). Weather forecasters estimated the peak winds at 150 m.p.h. Winds in New Orleans “exceeded 100 m.p.h.” shortly after 10 p.m.(USACE 1965, 4). “Vast areas of Orleans, Plaquemines, and St. Bernard Parishes were inundated bythe tidal surge that accompanied the storm. This surge either overtopped or breached the non-Federal levee protecting these areas” (USACE 1965, 8). Rainfall varied from 3 inches to nearly 6 inches, but very little of the serious flooding accompanying the stormcould be attributed to rainfall (USACE 1965, 20). New Orleans’ weather office measured 5.10 inches of rainfall. The storm’s record tidal surge produced by the rapid forward movement of the storm (17-22 m.p.h.), combined with the intensity of the storm caused the most damage. “The fast rising waters exceeded previously established high water records on the Mississippi River from Pointe-a-la-Hache to the mouth of the river” (USACE 1965, 20). The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers inventory of flooding in the Ninth Ward reports that: (See Figure 1) Flooding in the New Orleans area west of the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal and south of Gentilly Boulevard resulted from a tidal surge which overtopped the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal west levee, in the vicinity of the intersection of the canal and the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet. Subsequent levee breaks and/or overtopping southward along the canal caused additional flooding in this portion of New Orleans. After the low-lying areas adjacent to the canal were flooded, this water backed up into the area west of the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal and north of Gentilly Boulevard by way of drainage canals and subsurface drains. In the area west of the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal and south of GentillyBoulevard, 6,350 homes and 396 businesses had water as high as 7.0 feet above first floor level. Losses in this vicinity were especially severe to homes, businesses, and automobiles. (USACE 1965, 27) The damage and inundation throughout the state covered “4,800 square miles, killed 81 persons, caused about 250,000 persons to be evacuated, and disrupted
transportation, communication, and utilities service throughout the eastern coastal area of Louisiana for weeks”

[This message has been edited by Carl (edited 09-05-2005).]

Jack Burns
09-05-2005, 05:13 PM
To Serve & Protect


And for all you guys who still think race doesn't matter, just spend a little time reading through the viewer comments following the video clip. There's a lot more to it than the main stream media would have us believe.

09-05-2005, 06:53 PM
Ungrateful hurricane survivors?

Here is a write-up from a guy who just spent some time volunteering at the Astro dome. Contains some bad language.


09-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Yup, I read them all to date, There are ungrateful idiots in all walks of life.
And a catastrophy brings out the worst in people.

The tame Wolf !

09-05-2005, 09:01 PM
I have heard from a couple of friends who spent the weekend volunteering at the Austin Convention Center (currently housing about 3000 survivors). They were working to register people in the survivor locator database, and some of the stories were heartbreaking. Most of the people here were either elderly on fixed incomes with no car, people who's whole famlies lived in the city and were left with no place to go, and the working poor without cars or the money to get out.

Other than the Red Cross being overwhelmed, they said that the survivors were very grateful for the help, but all were very worried about finding loved ones and getting home. A friend spent time with an elderly man who's wife fell out of a helicopter sling about forty feet to the ground. He has no idea if she is still alive or where she is.

I was born in the city and spent ten years there. There were a lot of asses there, but there were a whole lot of good people who have lost everything, family, homes, and jobs. Be thankful that it was not you.

09-05-2005, 11:14 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by imakechips:
I have a question for you military guys.


i believe you are confusing "the military" with "the politicians". i was in the military, i am NOT a politician. and if you notice, who was in charge the first few days in New Orleans? the politicians. what got accomplished? nothing.
once the military showed up the people were evacuated in less than two days. THAT is why US citizens still enlist willingly in the military.

and as it has been discussed in several threads over the past few days, the US military cannot just hear of a disaster and show up ready to take action. they must be ordered into the area through the proper channels. i think we can all agree this is a good thing. can you imagine the outcry if the military just started showing up trying to take control of situations whenever it wanted?

andy b.

09-06-2005, 12:11 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> i believe you are confusing "the military" with "the politicians". i was in the military, i am NOT a politician. and if you notice, who was in charge the first few days in New Orleans? the politicians. what got accomplished? nothing.
once the military showed up the people were evacuated in less than two days. THAT is why US citizens still enlist willingly in the military. </font>

Funny, I can't remember referring anything about the military to the New Orleans problem. However, you are correct in that most "military" problem are really "politician" problems created by a voter problem. Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

People need to enlist in the military to go help out ungrateful losers who shoot at them? Within the borders of their own country? WTF?? I always though that if you wanted to help someone out, you just did it, and that those who were ungrateful don't get any more help. I wasn't aware that signing your rights away was part of the process, stupid me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> and as it has been discussed in several threads over the past few days, the US military cannot just hear of a disaster and show up ready to take action. they must be ordered into the area through the proper channels. i think we can all agree this is a good thing. can you imagine the outcry if the military just started showing up trying to take control of situations whenever it wanted? </font>

What I can imagine is that I'd be the first one out the door with rifle(it's ain't a 5.56 either) and ammo at the ready. No outcry, just heads exploding!

The question I asked is still unanswered. I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, but noone has ever been able to answer that question to my satisfaction.

On a personal note- 5 years ago my best friend told me that he had enlisted in the Navy. I asked "what are you going to do if this country gets into some kind of war? His response "that will never happen". I said "we'll wait and see". Then there came 9/11 and the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. Who was right? I'm not psychic, it's just that every couple of years something seems to "pop up" that the U.S. has to go take care of.

The day that another military power(nation) makes an attack on U.S. soil, I'll guarantee that if I'm not first in line then I'll be second.

09-06-2005, 05:59 AM
In line for what?

I am not trying to be a smartass,really.

The tame Wolf !

09-06-2005, 07:26 AM
I've enjoyed all the dialogue here -- except the comments and links J.Burns has posted. Pretty thinly veiled racism and it shames me to see it here. I don't have a bit of sympathy for the criminals in N.O. And, I'd agree that a culture of poverty and dependence needs to be reversed. That said, let's not forget that there are millions of blacks contributing in our society -- many at the highest levels in every field of endeavor.

Sine Wave
09-06-2005, 09:31 AM
I keep hearing about abject poverty????

Yes...some people don't have millions of $$

Is anyone seeing what I am seeing???

Most (and I mean most) of the people being rescued are waaaay overweight. But thats alright cos they's poor.


09-06-2005, 09:43 AM
This is interesting, especially in light of all the finger pointing about the situation in NO.


I'm trying to stay clear of the mud slinging, but felt this was worthwhile to post. BTW, I believe we have individual responsibilites for our own destiny.

John B

[This message has been edited by jr45acp (edited 09-06-2005).]

09-06-2005, 12:18 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by imakechips:
I have a question for you military guys.

Why exactly would anyone in their right mind volunteer to crawl through the mud, get shipped all over the world, and get shot at while fighting someone else's battles?

In my experience, if you have to ask the question,
You would not be able to understand the answer.

09-06-2005, 12:40 PM
quote "Where are the resources that could have alleviated this disaster? Where is the $$$, food, medicine, medical and military personnel that we need in abundance during this crisis? Why do we not have adequate national and regional planning for earthquake, tsunami, hurricane and other disasters?"

Forrest Gump would have said "Stupid is as stupid does" . . .

How much common sense does it take to know that 'below sea level' means it WILL flood . .
just a matter of time . .If it's the government fault it's because they allowed construction in a known catastrophy area . .The rest of the blame is to those who chose to live there . . and don't tell me they had no choice . .

Jack Burns
09-06-2005, 01:46 PM
Everything that’s happened in New Orleans was perfectly predictable to anyone with an open mind and eyes willing to see.


09-06-2005, 01:59 PM
You didnt even need an open mind or be a thinker to know what would happen if a levee broke, and for most, it was common knowledge that system was not designed for anything above a category 3 storm.