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View Full Version : Bushings... Best place to buy/make from?



3 Phase Lightbulb
09-07-2005, 06:22 PM
I need to either make or buy a pair of bushings that have a 1.625" OD and 1.250" ID. Or even better a pair of caged needle bearings with the same 1.625" OD and 1.250" ID.

Anyone have any suggestions on where to get such items? Most of the online bearing placed I've looked don't seem to have the correct OD/ID that I need.

-Adrian

egpace
09-07-2005, 06:37 PM
Adrian,
You got it.
http://bostongear.com/pdf/product_sections/bearing_pp_010_28.pdf
Have fun,
Ed

P.S. Don't let those plus decimal sizes throw you, they're for bearing "crush" when they're pressed in.

[This message has been edited by egpace (edited 09-07-2005).]

Leigh
09-07-2005, 07:45 PM
Hi Adrian,

McMaster-Carr Supply http://www.mcmaster.com has a wide assortment of bearings and bushings of various types.

CCWKen
09-07-2005, 07:58 PM
Ditto above. You better order them. We don't want you getting in a rush and carving out bushings with a babbitt knife. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-07-2005, 09:14 PM
So I found the bushings I need (1 5/8" OD and 1 1/4" ID) in the Boston Gear catalog, but I couldn't find any Bushings/Bearings with (1 5/8" OD and 1 1/4" ID) at McMaster..

The Boston Gear part number(s) I can use are B2026-12, B2026-16, and B2026-20... A pair of any of those would work..

The problem with Boston Gear is I can't find a dealer that sells their stuff online..

I made a video showing my diff and where I need to use a bushing to support the stubby axles:

Buggy Differential Video (2MB) (http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/diff_video.wmv)

Does anyone think a Bronze bushing would work fine?

-Adrian


[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 09-07-2005).]

Treven Baker
09-07-2005, 09:32 PM
Nice video. What connects to the outboard side of the axle? That is what usually supports the axle.

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-07-2005, 10:07 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treven Baker:
Nice video. What connects to the outboard side of the axle? That is what usually supports the axle.</font>

Normally this differential is inside of a housing and the axles are supported by the axle bearings at the end of the housing. My custom setup has independant rear suspension so the stubby shaft you see in the video will have a drive flange like this welded onto it (This one has a spline but I'll made one like this that goes on the end of my stubby axles):

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/drive_flange.jpg

That drive flange then bolts to the inner CV joint like this:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/cv_joint.jpg

A floating splined axle is inserted into the CV joint like this one:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/cv_axle.jpg

Another outer CV joint goes on the other end of the axle, and a stubby output drive shaft like this one is attached to the outer CV joint:
http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/stub_output.jpg

The Outdrive drive shaft is supported/held in a bearing carrier that's mounted in either a trailing arm setup, or inside a birdcage with a multi-link setup..

Here is a picture of the same setup I'm building except this one obviously has a VW tranny and not a GM open diff like mine:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/open_axles.jpg

-Adrian

CCWKen
09-07-2005, 10:37 PM
Adrian, I'd use a bearing there. There's too much stress on the outer axle stubs to use a bushing. Those outer CV joint stubs are mounted with bearings (two in some cases) there anyway. The shinny step is for a greas seal. There should be stock bearings available, if that stub is stock. What did it come from?

I'd try to stay with stock bearings. JMHO.

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-07-2005, 10:59 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CCWKen:
Adrian, I'd use a bearing there. There's too much stress on the outer axle stubs to use a bushing. Those outer CV joint stubs are mounted with bearings (two in some cases) there anyway. The shinny step is for a greas seal. There should be stock bearings available, if that stub is stock. What did it come from?

I'd try to stay with stock bearings. JMHO.

</font>

Everything in my video is GM with the exception of the bearing flanges.. The axle stub that I'm sticking into the diff is cut from a full length GM 28 spline axle out of a Camaro Z28. The stock bearings won't fit anything here because this is a completely different configuration. Where were you suggesting I use the stock bearings?

The flange bearings are 2" wide and the diff only sits in about 1/2" of the flange bearing so I have 1.5" of space to press a bushing in there. The shaft turns with the bushing as well as the bearing (all 3 turn together). The only time the shaft will turn inside of the bushing is when the outside wheel is over-turning in a corner. I'm want to use 2" long bushings and 1.5" of the bushing will be press fit into the bearings. All the bushings do is provide support for the axle inside of the flange bearings.

-Adrian

Davis In SC
09-07-2005, 11:00 PM
It seems probable that there is a Torrington needle bearing in that size. Years ago, I was able to get them in 64th increments, Handy way to salvage front axle shafts on 4X4's, trashed from being filled with mud.... Check the local bearing house...

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-07-2005, 11:05 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Davis In SC:
It seems probable that there is a Torrington needle bearing in that size. Years ago, I was able to get them in 64th increments, Handy way to salvage front axle shafts on 4X4's, trashed from being filled with mud.... Check the local bearing house...</font>

I'm tring to find a good local source for bearings so I can just bring stuff down there and get fitted right in their dressing room. I know they are around but I can't find them.

-Adrian

MikeHenry
09-07-2005, 11:37 PM
I've had good luck as a walk-in at the local Motion Industries store in my area. Store locations can be found at a link here:

www.motionindustries.com (http://www.motionindustries.com)

They'll cross reference what I need from a (usually worn out) sample and drop ship to me if they don't have it in stock.

Mike

CCWKen
09-08-2005, 12:08 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">All the bushings do is provide support for the axle inside of the flange bearings.</font>

Oh, Ok. I thought you were talking about he the outer axle spud. (I don't do videos on dial-up.) In any case, needle bearings require a very smooth race area. If all you need is a filler bushing, I'd spin one from steel and press it on. I did see a lathe in one of your photos, didn't I?

I'm still not clear on why this part needs to be a "bearing" or why it would spin "inside the flange bearing". Is this between the carrier housing and the flange bearing?


[This message has been edited by CCWKen (edited 09-08-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-08-2005, 12:15 AM
Just download the video because it's hard to explain.. I tried to talk really fast and make it short so it's only 2MB.

The only time the axle turns inside of the bushing is when the outside wheel starts turning faster in a turn.. The flange bearing turns with the differential so if the axle starts turning slower or faster than the differential that's the only time when it will turn inside of the bushing.

-Adrian


[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 09-08-2005).]

Joel
09-08-2005, 01:00 AM
I suppose you could also use another flange bearing next to the one for the diff, or maybe use both and you could run the bushing a bit looser.
Are you going to take up the thrust load on the trailing arm with a solid bushing so it won’t deflect? Also wondering, do you want to put a seal on the axle and enclose the whole thing or just seal it up at the diff?

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-08-2005, 01:10 AM
The trailing arms are going to support the stubby drive axles (different from the ones in the diff) with stock VW type 2 axles/bearing housings. I'll make the arms myself, but basically everything will be from a Type 2/Type 4 VW.

I'm going to use the stock bearing housing and make a pair of trailing arms like this guy did:

http://www.blindchickenracing.com/Products/suspensionparts/narrowarm10.JPG

-Adrian

topct
09-08-2005, 07:43 AM
3ph, you really need to support that axle at that point. There is a sort of whip action there as the cv joint is caused to rotate. A bushing or needle bearing although it might work for a short time it is not going to support the axle.

Since your axles are held in the diff with c-clips I think another bearing just like the one your using to support the diff, and sandwitched to the mount you are building. You could then just make a steel sleeve to fit on the axle and sized to the bore of the bearing.

You could at the same time you make the sleeve for the axle incorporate an area on it for some kind of grease seal at that point.





------------------
Gene

[This message has been edited by topct (edited 09-08-2005).]

[This message has been edited by topct (edited 09-08-2005).]

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-08-2005, 09:50 AM
Thanks for the input guys!

I'm convinced that a second pair of "outside" flange bearings with axle bushings would be the best solution but I'm starting to really get concerned about weight at this point.. Those damn flange bearings are actually over 4.5 lbs EACH http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

I think I'll initially try 2" long bushings press fit 1.5" deap into the existing flange bearings. I'll keep my stubby axles long enough so I can later add a second pair of flange bearings if I do run into problems.

I found a few sources for the bushings I need, but they don't offer online ordering.. Before I pick up the phone and start calling people, does anyone know of any other online bearing suppliers that have 100% online odering?

-Adrian

CCWKen
09-08-2005, 12:38 PM
I agreee with another flange bearing setup on the axle. You could probably use the two-bolt flanges there and save some weight. You might even see if you can use two of the same mounting holes--Back-to-back.

While you're at it, scrap those rinky-dink "tabs" you have for the inner flange bearings and use some plate there. 3/16 or 1/4x6" flat stock should work. You're going to have way too much torque (lest I admit it http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif ) on the carrier for those little tabs. The chain is going to want to pull the differential toward the engine. That could be a big mess if the tabs break off.

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-08-2005, 12:48 PM
Those "rinky dinky" tabs were cut from 3/16" angle iron and TIG weled to the tubes.. The lower two tubes are 1.375" OD, 1.00" ID, .1875" wall SCH40.

What you don't see right now, are the upper tubes installed using the same SCH40 and 3/16" tabs cut from Angle iron.

Here is a better shot of those rinky dinky 3/16" over-kill tabs http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/setup4.jpg

Picture the same setup ontop and that's what the rear end will look like.

And just in case you are now thinking those are 1/4" bolts, they are not. They are 9/16" bolts. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian




[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 09-08-2005).]

CCWKen
09-08-2005, 01:09 PM
Yea, but they're only Grade 5. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-08-2005, 01:31 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CCWKen:
Yea, but they're only Grade 5. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif</font>

You remind me of that guy in the FexEx commercial http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

"Lets review, shall we?...."

"We get fringe benefits, not French benefits, it’s not the Leaning Tower of Pizza, and James Dean was an actor—Jimmy Dean makes sausages.”

Have you seen that one? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian

Joel
09-08-2005, 03:04 PM
Sometimes it’s a whole lot faster to use the telephone than the computer Adrian. Just call up the bearing house if you go that route.

I suggested the axle flange bearing and the bushing so you would have 2 points of support, which should go a long way towards stopping the ‘whipping’.
I don’t think that your tabs are wimpy, just that they might not located the diff rigidly enough in all axes and you don’t want anything to flex. Here’s a thought; you could seal it outboard at the sleeve as per topct and if the bearings self-align, it would be simple to use one piece of stock from seal to bushing. You could make your diff cover span the bearings and add stiffness to the whole setup by tying the 2 flange bearings together, and tying the upper housing/cover to the top of the bearings. It really wouldn’t take much to make it all quite rigid this way. Tie the 2 frame rails together close to the diff.
Oh yeah, you are going to have a big old sprocket and chain to deal with and still have to keep some 90wt in there. How are you handling that?

The weight issue is why I had hoped you would use thinwall mild steel or DOM for the frame. Heavy or not, everything needs to be able to take the loads and then some. You don’t want to end up with a heavy AND frequently broken machine!

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-08-2005, 03:30 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joel:
Sometimes it’s a whole lot faster to use the telephone than the computer Adrian. Just call up the bearing house if you go that route.</font>

I ended up calling one of the local www.eBearings.com (http://www.eBearings.com) locations on the phone and they set me up good. I'll go pick up my bushings tomorrow.



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joel:
I suggested the axle flange bearing and the bushing so you would have 2 points of support, which should go a long way towards stopping the ‘whipping’.
I don’t think that your tabs are wimpy, just that they might not located the diff rigidly enough in all axes and you don’t want anything to flex. Here’s a thought; you could seal it outboard at the sleeve as per topct and if the bearings self-align, it would be simple to use one piece of stock from seal to bushing. You could make your diff cover span the bearings and add stiffness to the whole setup by tying the 2 flange bearings together, and tying the upper housing/cover to the top of the bearings. It really wouldn’t take much to make it all quite rigid this way. Tie the 2 frame rails together close to the diff.
Oh yeah, you are going to have a big old sprocket and chain to deal with and still have to keep some 90wt in there. How are you handling that?

The weight issue is why I had hoped you would use thinwall mild steel or DOM for the frame. Heavy or not, everything needs to be able to take the loads and then some. You don’t want to end up with a heavy AND frequently broken machine!</font>

I'm going to try the bushings first because the stubby axles will be held inside near the axle retaining clip and also outside towards the flange bearing (4-5" outward). The stubby axles are about 7 inches long and being supported outward in the bearing/bushing at around 4-5" inches.

As far as oil is concerned, my application doesn't need much oil compared to the stock application because I don't have a ring/pinion gear that needs to be oiled. In fact, nothing inside of the differential will be moving 90% of the time.. The only time OIL inside would be a benifit, is when the differentil is engaged and providing "differential" speeds (while turning, etc.).. The oil demands are significatly lower on my application so I can probably get away with a rubber boot that keeps the dust out and keeps the Torsen gears inside damp.. I'll probably manually roll back a large rubber boot and oil my diff before every ride.. Worse case, my diff locks up and I have a solid axle instead of one that provides "differential" speeds on both wheels.

-Adrian

Bguns
09-09-2005, 05:33 PM
Just seems like a lot of work to emulate a Subaru rear differential. They are light, common and set up for cv axles already.....

3 Phase Lightbulb
09-09-2005, 10:38 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bguns:
Just seems like a lot of work to emulate a Subaru rear differential. They are light, common and set up for cv axles already.....</font>

I went with a brand new high performance GM 7.5" Torsen differential for $100 vs $600+ for a new Subaru Torsen differential.

Subaru CV axles won't work because I need at least 22 deg for both the inner and outer CV joints. My buggy will have 18+ inches of suspension travel so almost all CV joints won't work except Porsche 930 or 944/Type-4 CV joints.

I installed some large press fit bushings tonight (1.628" OD, 1.25" ID x 2" long) into the flange bearings tonight. The axles are nicely supported at the ends now. I was also able to face-off and turn down the axle ends on my lathe in preperation for attaching my CV joint drive flanges:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/bushings.jpg

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/bushings2.jpg

-Adrian

CCWKen
09-10-2005, 09:00 PM
Sorry. It looked like there was three marks on the bolts. They must be Grade 2 bolts then?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Parts/boltsGradex.jpg