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Jeeper
10-13-2002, 01:35 AM
Anyway, I guy I know makes his own blackpowder rifles. And he got me interested. Now he wont teach me!!! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif So I want to know how too. Are there anybooks out there on the subject? Also, what size machines will I need? And, what kind of materials should I use?
Thanks,
Chris

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Duct Tape, the most widely used tool!!:)

Alistair Hosie
10-13-2002, 02:01 AM
jeeper you will find this strangeI was nearly forty before I saw a real gun and that was in Florida I coudn't believe it when I saw them on sale.I called my three boys over and we all stared for ages and pointed at it .The shop assistant looked a bit nervous at first he must have thought we were nuts.When I explained we had never seen a real one before he thought we were even more crazy.Alistair

decoy91288
10-13-2002, 09:43 AM
Here is a great place to start for information on blackpowder guns and a lot of other things.

http://www.dixiegun.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/dgw/homepage.html?L+dgw+yrkt0701+966918382

I built my first blackpowder gun from individual parts and plans I got from these folks in 1978.

Buy the catalogue - there is enough there to keep you reading for years - it is much more than a list of things for sale.

* all the usual disclaimers


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Craig

Gizmo
10-13-2002, 11:54 AM
Blackpowder, huh? Check out 'Foxfire 5', edited by Eliot Wiggington. Your library will have the Foxfire stuff, I'm sure. This will go well with your Gingery tools! Great foundation piece about how to make something from nuttin'. Then go to Dixie Gun Works and buy the pieces parts.

Al Messer
10-13-2002, 04:49 PM
Alistair, With the percussion form of ignition being invented by a Scot (Rev. Forsythe), I do find it hard to believe what you say about not seeing a real one until you were at that age, but since you've said it, I'll believe it!! However, I do realize that laws are far tougher and more restrictive in your part of the world than here.

P.S. Do you have a good claymore stashed in the thatching?

Al Messer

Jeeper
10-13-2002, 09:21 PM
Thanks everybody for the replies. I will order the catalog. So, you think that those gingery machines will handle it? This trade is great. I love makin something, out of nuttin.
Thanks,
Chris

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Duct Tape, the most widely used tool!!:)

Jim Wilson
10-13-2002, 11:31 PM
Alistair,

I'll venture a question here and reveal my ignorance. Are guns illegal in Britain or did you lead a sheltered life? Exposure to guns here is quite natural. I hunted with my Grandfather as a child, had my own 22 at twelve and carried an M16 in Vietnam. Haven't touched one since but that is my choice. I guess my background is pretty similar to a lot of the US folks on this BBS. I too am interested in muzzle loaders since they have been such an important factor of history. I have been seriuosly considering buying one of Dixie Gun Works kits. I find it strange that almost all of their reproduction muzzle loaders are made in Japan or Italy.

Jim

Jim

wwheelock
10-14-2002, 01:35 AM
If you're interested in blackpowder rifles you might like to join the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association. The website is www.nmlra.org. (http://www.nmlra.org.) They have a monthly magazine MuzzleBlasts that has lots of good info in it and plenty of advertisers for anything you will need to build and shoot a muzzleloader. National Shoots are held at Friendship, Indiana in June and September of each year. There is a commercial row at the shoot and you can find anything for a muzzleloader there. They also have a Western National shoot in February in Arizona.

Bill Wheelock

docn8as
10-14-2002, 01:55 AM
alistair...

i remember an insertion in " the american rifleman", circa 1939 -1940 begging for any extra guns to be sent to england,because there were not enough guns for the home guard to fend off the expected mainland invasion!........in 1917 we were manufacturing enfields in 303 for england(not lee-enfields ) when armistice was declared...i remember class stopped & the bells rang at 11;00in the 30's......recently read that britains crime rate is out of sight since the gun" banning" & that they now have daylight robberies since the criminals have no fear of being SHOT in the home!....good luck on the next prospective invasion ....maybe u can enlist the criminals since they will still have their weapons ,just at an increased cost of doing business

best wishes
docn8as

Ragarsed Raglan
10-14-2002, 09:20 AM
Jim, docn8as, and others,

Only hand guns have been made illegal in the UK, following the Dunblane killings. This was a lamentable 'knee jerk' reaction that was used to cover up the incompetence of the authorities that issued the firearm licences. The madman involved with these shootings was a member of a gun club, and had been reported (by responsible members of the GC) to the licencing authorities on numerous occasions about his mental state and unsuitability to have guns in his pocession. No action was taken against him by the authorities, now all shooters have had to suffer as a result of his actions.

We are however still able to own and use Firearm rifles, and shotguns (and to quote from my licence for my shotgun "...a shotgun is a smooth bore gun with a barrel of greater than 24" length that is no greater than 2" bore diameter"....!). The numbers of licences for all weapons is around 3 million, with a total of 5 million guns legally held. The number of illegal guns is estimated to be i.t.r.o over 10 million. A lot of these guns were WWII booty (I was once asked by a widow to dispose of her husbands 'momentoes' a Sten gun, a BAR, and a Schmeiser Machine Pistol), but there is an increasing trend for illegal weapons to be entering the country from Eastern Europe.

The wrong and bad will always have access to firearms, legislation will not stop this from happening. I learnt from my visits to the US that 'Hot' burglaries were very rare in the US due to the high incidence of the villains expecting a 0.38" coming the other way as they enter premises. Here in the UK a recent case had a lonely rural farmer jailed for 3 years for gunning down 2 thieves who had entered his house!

My rant is over....I'm sure you will have a furore for 'gun control' in the US after this sniper incident in Washington. You can never legislate for a madman.

RR

Al Messer
10-14-2002, 01:22 PM
"You can never legislate for a madman" Truer words have never been spoken. Wish you were in the U.S. Senate!!

Ragarsed Raglan
10-14-2002, 02:59 PM
Al,

Thanks for the vote Al ~ free South Bends and B'ports to all HSM's would be my manifesto!

Seriously, I do get annoyed at the head in the sand view of a lot of British people when it comes to guns. I was brought up with a shotgun resting in the corner of my bedroom ~ so Pop Raglan could knock out a few bunnies in the lettuce patch of a morning. I have 4 shotguns which are my pride and joy, A Belgian FN Browning superposed, a Beretta SO4 Gamescene, a Browning B125 (Japanese metalwork, hand finished at Liege in Belgium ~ similar to a Citori) and an English 1930's Armstrong 16 bore side by side. Like a car, a gun is only as dangerous as the nut that holds the trigger (in the car it's the nut that holds the steering wheel!)

I quite often get looked upon as some sort of freak for owning a shotgun - and why on earth do you want 4? My reply is how many clothes does your wife own ~ why not just one dress, well she has to wear something different for different occasions, right? Same with a gun ~ one breaks skeet clays, one breaks trap clays, one breaks FITASC clays, and one breaks my heart!!

At least to own a gun in the UK you have to be of good character with no previous convictions, and now thanks to Dunblane have no mental illness record at the local practitioners. At least I can prove I'm not bad or mad!!

All this leads to a friend of mine who had his shotgun stolen from his house, whilst on holiday, despite being locked in a secure gun cabinet and the place being alarmed to the nearest police sation!!

A couple of weeks later the police asked if he could identify a shotgun they had recovered. When he saw it, it had had the stock roughly sawn off and the barrels hacked down to about 9" length (it was a beautiful Beretta SO5 - worth about £7000). He broke down in tears, when the copper asked him why he was crying he said "...'cus it's a crime to do such a thing to a gun like that...". The policeman said "...Well what about the poor drug dealer that was killed by it..." "Good riddance to the bastard" is what my friend replied. The policeman said something along the lines of "..You gun owners have no morals.

Think about it....

Bloody hell ....Second rant in a day!!

RR

Tel
10-14-2002, 05:20 PM
Pity it didn't take out a few more of 'em before the coppers snaffled it

Al Messer
10-14-2002, 07:59 PM
R. R.,

we have some people with the same "syndrome" here in the States, they think that the only people qualified to own or use a firearm are those that "wear a badge". Well, I have worked "around" law inforcement several times in my life, and contrary to what some of them may think, they are neither Omni-present or Omniscient. As strange as it may sound, 100 years ago when most every adult male and a lot of females were armed, our society was a LOT MORE POLITE. If you accidently bumped into someone on a crowded sidewalk, you said "Pardon me, or excuse me" that the other party would (if they were intelligent) say "That's All right" or words to similar effect. Nobody would get mad and call the offending party a M....F.. because if they had, chances are they would have been "called out" and made to back up their "freedom of speech" with Col. Colt's invention..

docsteve66
10-14-2002, 10:19 PM
gun carrying makes polite people? Damn sure you are goingto be polite to all, when that little old lady, with thennis shoes, thick glasses and gray hair, and a big hand bag may be the meanest toughest, person in the rough bar and have a sawed off shot gun in that purse.

I propose all in favor of no guns post ,at tax payer expense plus a $10.00 reward for being in favor of gun control, a nice sign saying "there are no guns in this house". If we give them the sign, they gotta post it or pay 50.00 to dispose of the sign. THats my soluton to the national debt problem for a few years. and a permenate solution to the control crowd's loud talking. course, if they are right, and crime goes down after they post, i am going to post me a sign too and vote for gun control!!!!!!. Meanwhile Mr Colt and I remain close associates
Steve

Oso
10-15-2002, 12:36 AM
I have no problem with this discussion.

I will, however, mention that our "great protector", Mr Ashcroft, has gotten much more interested in internet discussions recently. It can and has resulted in "visits" at 5 AM.

Just something to remember.

Jeeper
10-15-2002, 01:45 AM
Mr Ashcroft??? Any way, what kind of kits do you guys recommend for my first project? Also, would the gingery machines handle the projects? And, I believe in the right to bear arms. Doc like your idea for the signs. But you know what they will say, "If we do that then robbiers will know that we dont have any protection".
Thanks,
Chris

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Duct Tape, the most widely used tool!!:)

wwheelock
10-15-2002, 02:35 AM
Here's some more information on supplies and books for building a muzzle loading rifle. First I'll repost the web site address for the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. I got a period on the end of it on my previous post that messed things up. www.nmlra.org (http://www.nmlra.org) . A great place to get stocks and building supplies is Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply Company. Their web address is www.longrifles-pr.com (http://www.longrifles-pr.com) . They also sell agood book on building rifles, THE ART OF BUILDING THE PENNSYLVANIA LONGRIFLE. It gives all the details on building a rifle but all of the illustrations are drawings. Another good book on building is RECREATING THE AMERICAN LONGRIFLE. It has many good photos of rifles that really help you get an idea of what a rifel should realy look like. The web address for the publisher of this bok is www.shumwaypublisher.com (http://www.shumwaypublisher.com) .

If you need any other help or information give me an e-mail.

Bill Wheelock
Indiana Field Representative
National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association
wwheelock@yahoo.com

Thrud
10-15-2002, 04:06 AM
Gun control not only doesn't work, it is a paion in the keister as well. I really don't know why they are worried about the guns when serial killers get day passes to have dinner with estranged wives (nary a visit in 15 years) and this same sexual murderer still gets his Ford Disability pension ($30K/year) which he can use to get food and porno tapes delivered right to his cell. No - We don't need gun control in Canada, we need to have me incharge of the prisoners and gring back the noose. Plus we can have a lottery to fund victims of crime compensation, the grand prize winner can get $50K tax free or get to pull the lever on national TV (WE WILL LET THE PERPS WATCH THAT!), or if they can give that honor to one of the victims family.

Gaurds will wear intimidating uniforms - because they will be the army. No More BS from this bums - they lost all but their basic human rights when they commit the crimes.

Warden Thrud has spoken. (Pass the lethal ammo...)

...but I am not pissed. No, not me...

Al Messer
10-15-2002, 09:46 AM
Thrud,

I hereby make you an honorary Redneck,with all the rights and priveledges thereof!!

Al

martin_vanmeter
10-15-2002, 12:28 PM
back to the original question.

One excellent (!) class is taught at Conner Prairie, just north of Indianapolis, IN.

by the time you buy the top grade kit and pay for the week's instruction and lodging, it is not cheap. BUT, you will be taught by some of the best contemparory blackpowder longrifle gunsmiths available today.

http://www.connerprairie.org/events/armsmakingworkshop.html

you missed it for this year, going on now, but you can plan ahead.

Squeezmo
10-15-2002, 01:57 PM
Didja know that duct tape is now being studied by the meds for its mysterious ability to remove warts?

skykingg
10-15-2002, 04:42 PM
Thrud,

I'm right there with you.

Tel
10-15-2002, 05:17 PM
Need an assistant Thrud?? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

docsteve66
10-16-2002, 12:23 AM
Dave, I appoint you warden ,soon as I become govenor- I run on "no stays of exucution, jail the prosocuting attorney if the wrong guy is found to have been convicted".

Any one know what "short shrift" used to mean? Seems Shrift was confession/absolution (priest). the legal system used to be so fast that,when convicted, the crimianl had only a "short srhift" on his way to exucution.

Peace Steve

Thrud
10-16-2002, 01:03 AM
Hey, maybe we should make it the law that every prisoner gets body hair removed once a month with duct tape. Maybe 3M will donate for the cause. Oh yeah, 24Hr. Slim Whitman Muzak too. Earplugs for the screws.

Back to the subject. No, I cannot make a gun. This is Canada - I stand on Gaurd for my Queen and country - but I do not own anything, I have no property rights. If I made a gun it is a 15 year sentance without parole. But you can murder someone and get out in a few weeks...

Jeeper
10-16-2002, 01:15 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
If I made a gun it is a 15 year sentance without parole. But you can murder someone and get out in a few weeks...</font>

Thats outrageous!!! Geez, cant even make a gun. But, can you buy a gun?? And, why did they outlaw making your own?? And, the only way you would get jailed is if you get caught!!! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
Chris


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Duct Tape, the most widely used tool!! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jeeper (edited 10-16-2002).]

CompositeEngr
10-16-2002, 02:59 AM
Saw 60 minutes this weekend; they had a piece on gun control, specifically keeping guns away from people with violent mental illness. Did a fairly balanced job of it... kind of surprised me.
The crux of the matter with the mental illness here is that there is no central repository of data. The FBI is supposed to coordinate state's records, but the states aren't keeping the records. The result is that people who, by law, shouldn't get guns can get guns.
When somebody goes apeSh.., then all of "us" get blamed.

Like most gov't problems, it is preventable, but those programs are last on the money list. High-profile crap like legislating the appearance of a rifle makes for better pictures in the paper.

1erful
10-16-2002, 10:22 PM
CompositeEngr: Have you done anything with regards to a 400 cu. in. 351W? WALT WARREN

docsteve66
10-16-2002, 11:26 PM
Squeezmo: todays paper had a piece on duct tape and warts. Got one up on the wife thanks to you!!!
Steve

Alistair Hosie
10-17-2002, 10:26 AM
What ragarsed raglan said is somewhat true that after the terrible tragedy when a nutter went into a school and killed as many kids and teachers as he could the government tightened up the previous policy and handguns are totaly banned.The guy concerned had a numerous amounts of weapons and had thousands of rounds of ammo.He was a paedophile who had been getting hassle as he was exposed for his crimes against innocent children and because he had been exposed he went bannanas and did this terrible thing.

I repeat what I say and ragarsed will probably confirm there are no shops that sell hand guns in U K or any other kind apart from shotguns which are used by farmers and clay pidgeon shooters and they are nowhere tobe seen very scarce, but even before the tragedy I have and my friends have never seen these weapons on display anywere in the u k shops.I'm sorry to stir things but I am glad we don't have them in circulation in U K althougn there are some around in the hands of the criminals mostly imported from Jamaica and the Caribean.Sorry this is not meant to offend and I would not try and apply that to U S as it is really too late to try to stop the sale of guns there.but here they are not on sale and I had not seen a real one till I first went to America .Alistair

Rustybolt
10-17-2002, 11:02 AM
Jeeper. I thought you meant stuff like AR15's and Fals and stuff. I'm currently machining a raw forging for an AR15. I've made my own reciever for an RPK(Heavy Barrel version of a AK47) All semi auto of course. I've built FALs and G3's. Let me tell you once you build one you wont want to stop. All this is perfectly legal as long as you follow BATF guidelines. On the back burner are plans for a full size Gattling Gun in 45-70. Also legal as long as its a black powder catrige and operated by hand crank.
I'm often amused by visitors to this country who claim it is too violent(Go to a soccer match in Europe)Since half the firearm related deaths are suicides and two thirds of the rest are gang related, you have a better chance of getting hit by a tour bus in Xonia Wi. than getting shot in the US.

nheng
10-17-2002, 11:23 AM
In the US, you can now commit murder and become a rock star. The VH1 channel is having a concert Friday night and one of the performers is serving a life sentence for murdering 2 teenage girls. One of their mothers pleaded to VH1 and it fell on deaf ears.

VH1 is in some of the standard channel lineups in the Northeast so the kiddies get it for free. I called ATT cable and issued a strong request to have the VH1 channel removed from the lineup due to lack of response from its management to this disgrace.

If the pressure mounts and the show stops, he'll have to go out and find a book deal instead.

What are the basic limitation on the types of guns (or parts thereof) you can make for your own use in ths US (or is that too much for this forum) ?

Den

Alistair Hosie
10-17-2002, 09:19 PM
Dera friends
There is a basic gbut fundamentaldifference in attitude here in UK to guns than in America etc were guns are plentiful.In America if someone enters your home(a burglar for lack of a better term)as I understand it you have a right to shoot him.Is this correct? the penalty for burglary should not be death .
Sorry not end of story before I get hate mail,
however it would be fair to say that a burglar in say America is more likely to be a threat to your own life than here and as he ,she may be armed and capable of using deadly force in order to escape.
So quite clearly the potential threat is very different and to be honest if I lived in America and thought that if a burglar could kill me or my wife or children to escape detection I would also think long and hard about being armed not that I relish the idea or would shoot first and ask questions later. So there are obvious differences which cannot be overlooked.Very few burglars here shoot their victims or come with a gun (possibly a knife) and you have the right under British law to respond in order to save your own life and the occupants of your home etc with appropriate force but no more than apropriate force the ambiguity is obvious Alistair

mike thomas
10-17-2002, 09:25 PM
I do not know why it would surprise anyone that a murderer could become a rock star. Furthermore, why protest this if you are not also protesting the appearance of certain well known politicians? In short, what does the profession have to do with anything? Convictions you say? They are for poor people.
As far as anyone being in favor of gun restrictions, could someone please explain what the DC and Maryland laws have done to either stop the current incident or to lower murder rates overall? Perhaps if someone in that HD parking lot was packing, the crime star of the moment would be dead. Before anyone tells me that it would be terribly traumatic to kill someone, I would consider this the saving of other lives.
Since the government's main purpose seems to be screwing me, I favor being responsible for my own welfare. Mike

docsteve66
10-17-2002, 09:43 PM
DEN: I live in USA and I would like to know more aboutthe limits also.

Alistair: Guns aren't bad at all. You have surely heard of Tombstone Arizona (big gun fight at the OK corral). There, in the 1800's any one could carry a gun. More people there were killed with cast iron frying pans than guns, according to a news paper posted in the town. Mr Colt made every one the same size, back when men defended them selves because it was a long way to the law. When every one has or may have a gun, people tend to be polite, AVOID contfrontations. Its when some a hole has the where with all to act un sociable and no one can keep him/her civil that troubles start. I firmly believe that all laws ultimately have exactly the opposite effect that the law was intended to accomplish. When carrying a gun was forbidden, the criminals knew that only other criminals and law enforcement people were apt to have a weapon. Thus instead of things becomming safer they became more dangerous. Town in Georgia made it a law that every one had to have a gun in the home. Crime in Kennasaw Ga plummeted and rose in the near by towns.

Its the fear of not being able to USE the gun that scares most peole I think, so they want others to be helpless also, thining that in the valley of the blind, the one eye man is king.

RG0
10-17-2002, 09:43 PM
Check out this site for information on building your own guns. So far, he has completed an 80% 1911 and a 0% AR.

http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/

Oso
10-17-2002, 10:31 PM
Call me cold hearted, but the only thing that would bother me about killing a burglar would be his friends, and the mess he will make on my floor.

I don't want to wait to find out that he decided to eliminate the witnesses. He broke in and it is his lookout. I know who is supposed to be in here, and my night vision is good.

I read the newspaper, and if anyone wants to bring ME to trial, there will be plenty of clippings to prove my point.

Al Messer
10-18-2002, 12:03 AM
Raglan,Alistar

Please try to remember that a lot of what is now the Eastern part of the U.S. was colonized/settled by some strong minded Scots laddies that had had the dog whipped out of them at Culloden and were not very happy with the English Monarchy of Georges I, II, and III, nor his ministers. So, when they got over here, they influenced/seduced all us Krauts, Irish, Welch, Portygees, Italians, Dutch, Flemish, and etc. into believing the slogan "Give me Liberty or give me death" so strongly, that it was decided amongst them that "we'll make sure that we will have the where-with-all to maintain our Liberty and give death to anyone who tries to take it away from us".

So you see, we are not responsible for our beliefs and actions. We were corrupted by our ancestory!! Basically, we are all stout-hearted law abiding Englishmen!!

Rustybolt
10-18-2002, 12:24 AM
Alistair. The rule is "You must be in fear of your life or the life of someone close by" in order to use deadly force. Just because someone is in your home uninvited does give anyone carte blanc to kill them. However if you are locked in your bedroom and a burglar is breaking down the door to get at you and your stuff you have the right to defend yourself.
Now the reality of it. If someone gets into your home in the dead of night intent on robbing you and you kill them inside your own home the police will most likely shake your hand ask you to fill out a report. If your late and kill them outside your home they'll arrest you and ask you why you didn't drag the body inside the house. This is one of the reasons that of all burlaries in the US only 13% are committed when someone is home.Firearms are used over 2000,000 times every year to prevent a crime in the US. In less than 1% of those cases is the weapon fired.In all states with a concealed carry law violent crime has gone down and stayed down.Personally I don't trust a government that does not trust me to defend myself.

Rustybolt
10-18-2002, 12:35 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nheng:


What are the basic limitation on the types of guns (or parts thereof) you can make for your own use in ths US (or is that too much for this forum) ?

Den

</font>

Basically any military or sporting arm or pistol. any long gun(rifle) must have a barrel at least 16 inches in length and no more than to imported parts.If it has a flash hider it can't have a pistol grip or detachable magazine and some others that I don't remember right now. It must be semi auto only and not be readily convertible to full auto. One of the easiest rifles to build is the FAL or L1A1 there is no machining and US compliant parts are readily available. Right now I'm looking for an Australian L1A1 parts kit.

mnadeja
10-18-2002, 12:47 AM
Thanks Rustybolt, I couldn't have said it better myself. I live in PA, where I am allowed to carry a concealed weapon. It saved me once, (at least my wallet) without even firing.
Anyway, whoever decides to make their own guns, please check with the ATF. There can be harsh penalties for something that is supposed to be a hobby. Be careful, Be safe.

Tel
10-18-2002, 02:54 AM
Gotta take issue with you there Alistair - since the ill advised gun control measures were introduced here in Oz gun deaths are UP, violent crime is UP, home invasions are UP, and, in general, sentences are DOWN - now what does that tell you.

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2002, 08:34 AM
Guys before I begin as I said I dont want to tell anyone how to run their affairs. I have absolutely no knowledge of guns whatsoever.
I am just trying to point out what the situation is here.
The vast majority of people don't want handguns or any other kind for that matter I cant help that it's a fact.And Tel of course things are statistically different in other countries according to how long they have been used to carrying or having guns etc etc.So I fully accept as I tried but perhaps did not explain very well that other countries feel very srongly about this I don't want too try and show anyone the light as I admitted if I lived in the States were guns are everywhere ,I might think about my own safety and also want to have one. But that is not how it is here guns are and have during my Fifty one years been very scarce and although they are to a lesser extent around most people have never seen a real one in their lives .Alistair

Chris Fazio
10-18-2002, 09:45 AM
Alister

From what I hear, crime has increased tremendously in the UK since the gun ban.Why would someone breaking into your house in the UK be less likely to shoot you than in the USA? Do you know for sure when someone has broke into your house that they are just burglars or are they some sick piece of "pond scum" that are there to kill you? I don't think I'm going to wait around to find out what their intentions are,evidently they are not good intentions.You said few burglars come with a gun, maybe a knife, well I think that knife will make you just as dead as that gun will. I also understand that there are many people in the UK that believe that the gun ban is a bunch of B.S. so I don't know that you speak for all those in the UK. Stopping the legal selling of firearms to law abiding citizens is not going to stop the "pond scum" from getting their illegal weapons. So when that bad guy breaks into your house or attempts to do you bodily harm on the street or in your car and he has a gun and all you have is a baseball bat or a knife I wish you luck, your going to need it! It's called the balance of power,if the criminals have tanks, then I need a tank to defend myself! Sorry for the rant, but gun control will never work, you can't legislate morality!

Chris

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2002, 12:36 PM
Chris let me make myself clear it depends on what type of increase you are talking about.The vast majority of crimes probably 97% don't and never have involved guns any way so an increase in crime figures has nothing to do with an increase or decrease in the guns available.
The vast majority of crime is theft related and burglaries account for a proportion of those mostly committed by young people looking for a video etc to sell for drug money they don't come into your house with any weapons at all and let me repeat most crimes are not violent. so there is very little chance of getting shot as a result of theft by whatever means.Knife attacks are also not common with burglars but slightly increased between youth who fight with each other usually when totaly drunk.
There are some violent attacks in the bigger cities London etc.But the vast majority of people don't get stabbed or shot when robbed or burgled it is very rare.So I have said and with respect I am not arguing with you if you read carefully what I said I am not saying you should do what I do or that the USA has got to follow britain I was quite clear on this as America has a very different problem as criminals are much more likely to carry guns than here.
I have said and repeat that guns are very scarce that's all and we dont need or want them that was made abundantly clear after Dunblane when the vast majority spoke out in favour of their abolishment.Sorry if that's offensive to you but thats how it is I repeat again if I lived in the states I would probably feel exactly like you do i really would i understand you completely and am not saying your wrong Chris but the two countries have a different gun history and therefore different aproaches and attitudes to guns here and with you.Alistair

mbensema
10-18-2002, 02:21 PM
Allistair, with all due respect, you seem to be missing the point. The issue with gun control is not so much whether the criminals commit crimes with guns, it's whether they think YOU have one. If they know you are unarmed, then they will not be worried about getting shot themselves, and that applies to all types of crimes from petty theft to rape and in any country or culture. The major issue is when the population is unarmed, and the criminals know it, all crime increases. There are many examples here in the States where the crime rate has soared after misguided gun laws were put in place, and the same has happened in the UK also. You may not agree with our laws or gun culture, and I am not critisizing your rights to state your opinion, but I would much rather have everyone of my neighbors armed then none of them.


Mike

Demon440
10-18-2002, 02:50 PM
wow, I came in this topic late. Looks like everything has been coverd.

On making your own gun subject,
I have been thinking about making my own gun too. I was thinking about making a single shot 9mm pistol or soemthing like that, nice and simple. I think with basic machines it could be done.
I make lots of differnt gun parts at my job and it really does not look like it would be that hard to do the samething on home machines. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2002, 03:05 PM
mbensema
I didn't say I disagreed with your gun policy I have said and will say again that I don't have any right to criticise your gun policy because I dont have to face the same challenges you have to. You can have a million guns each I don't care. All I am saying is that here in Britain there was a large call for guns to be outlawed.Sorry of that doesnt suit you or anyone else but that's what they chose to have overwhelmingly thats their right to do so thats democracy.I may not agree with it you may not agree with it but that's what they decided sorry.But I'm not going to be drawn into an argument about it that is a fact.It has been argued here that when criminals face guns as a result of their activities instead of your argument that they have no fear and therefore carry a gun it is more likely that they will carry a gun thinking that you will have one so theybetter have one too when they enter your house to burgle it and there fore they will need one.If they can be assured that you don't have agun they won't feel the need for one so don't carry one.That's not my argument thats a rather general view here.WE both have different circumstances Youve always had guns and a gun culture and we've never had guns and don't feel the need for them thats a fact .Sorry I repeat once again all I started to say was that I had never seen a real gun before I went to U S A that is also a fact .
LIsten to what i'm repeatedly saying I'm not disagreeing with your point of view from an american aspect I fully understand were your coming from but we have different circumstances here like it or not right or wrong .Alistair

Chris Fazio
10-18-2002, 03:20 PM
Alistair

The info we see here regarding crimes with guns in the UK says that since the gun ban crimes with guns have been on the increase.Of course this could be propaganda from the media here or the numbers you quote may be propaganda from the media in the UK. I do have one question though, when someone does break into a home in the UK,unarmed ,do the occupants flee or go at it with hand to hand combat or do the bad guys let the occupants call the police or do these burglaries only take place when no one is home.Please don't take offense with what I say I'm just trying to understand. Here the places with the most gun laws have the highest amounts of crime.

Chris

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2002, 05:32 PM
Chris i'm not offended you have a good point to make.I just am making a hash it seems of explaining myself, and I don't want to offend anyone out there as you guys are so nice to me .I know that guns are a very emotive issue to you guys and I'm trying my best to make my point without seeming offensive or arrogant.
What everyone says so far is correct
(for America)
that's basically it.
You have a right to defend yourself against gun crimes (fire with fire if you like ).
I think the problem you guys are having in understanding my point and I am not doing a good job of explaining ,is that yes we have guns and yes technically gun crime may be on the increase but it is absolutely repeat absolutely a miniscule problem as opposed to what you guys face over there.Most people facing a criminal hardly ever do so, where a gun is involved.
Usually gun crime (which has increased between certain groups not generally) is restricted to a very specialised group I E between drug wars between rival groups trying to establish new or defend existing territories they shoot each other (generally).
Otherwise guns are a no no very seldon (hardly ever) do guns get used in normal crimes it doesn't happen only very rarely so we don't live with that fear when our house gets burgled for example it's usually a fourteen year old whom you grab by the neck and take to the police station.If its a grown adult the law says that you can use whichever force is necessary to either restrain them or defend yourself.

That is if you like where most people have a problem here what is reasonable its ambiguous.

There is a famous case recently whereby a guy had kids breaking into his house it turned out to be the same two assholes all the time. Police always knew who it was and because they were young our liberal laws let them go time after time the police could do nothing else but arrest them and take them to court where they were given a smack on the back of the wrist.The last time they came to his house he caught them red handed and they quickly attempted to jump back out of the window they had just came in.The first one got half way out when the owner of the house shot at them with a shotgun he wounded the first one and killed the second.
That is a case that is causing a lot of contraversy as he got the jail for doing so .
The second boy died trying to climb out of the window shot in the back.
He posed no threat and thats how the law saw it and the owner of the house was jailed.

I ask again did he deserve to die shot in the back trying to get away posing no threat?
I think not as did the vast majority of people here .
If the boy had attempted to use a knife on him the law would have taken a different action as he would have been obviously defending himself and even though he used a gun it may have been o k that's open to question as his life was threatened .The police tell you not to attack anyone who comes into your property but you can defend yourself hope that clears up the misunderstanding.best regard as always Alistair

Rustybolt
10-18-2002, 06:08 PM
"Two peoples divided by a common language"LOL

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2002, 06:11 PM
Thanks Rusty you make me feel better L.O.L from me too Alistair

Oso
10-18-2002, 06:47 PM
Alastair, I think for that kind of killing he would be in big trouble here too.

Believe it or not, we do have laws about use of weapons, and in most places shooting or whatever when the perp is running away is not accepted even when the police do it. And they used to get away with anything.

The police want to see the wound on the front, and if possible a credible weapon somewhere nearby that the perp was using. Otherwise that is called murder.

In this case you mention, there is even less justification, since everything about the case was already known, even the burglars names, apparently.

its a bit different when you have large unknown folks rustling around in the house in the middle of the night. You have to ask yourself if you can get all get out and call the cops without the perps catching you, and if not, do you want to draw fire by warning the perps first before you take action.

Best thing we could do here is break all the televisions. Much less violence then, IMO. The TV gives classes on burglary and violence, 6 object lessons per hour. All this in the name of free speech, and "reality". It is enough to make a person think maybe the Taliban had something right.

But never fear, laws or no, you will be getting the same kind of extreme violence there. East european and russian "mafia" are the new thing now, they simply do not care about anything or anybody. You will get them, or others, just a matter of time, not "if", but "when"........

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2002, 07:59 PM
The Russian mafia are a bad lot they get what they deserve if you ask me they are evil.I understand they run parts of Russia police are scared of them.We dont need them thanks or want them and if they are in your neighborhood come down hard on them and send them back were they came from.Too many liberals want to protect them we have swarms of immigrants from east europe they get straight onto all the benefits going and then go out begging and get their children to pickpocket evryone who passes by a real menace come in illegally.
I would kick their balls smartly but the do gooders are always feeling sorry for them and the children who pickpocket get let out after a one page form is filled out as they are under age and start all over again.
We have had a lot of problems with very young criminals who know they are too young to prosecute and make the most of it while they can However Tony Blair is just waking up and starting to do something albeit too late for some Alistair

mike thomas
10-18-2002, 09:01 PM
I may be mistaken, but I think that most in the UK would consider Hitler a criminal. It is a good thing someone was armed when he came calling. I think it was us. We donated many a firearm to those who thought they would never have a need for them. Mike

Alistair Hosie
10-19-2002, 07:18 AM
Mike
are you seriously suggesting fighting Hitler and facism is comparable to shooting someone who comes into your home to burgle it.Well well well some people.If that is the level to which the debate is sinking I bow out now sorry. I am obviously wrong and you are correct next time a Nazi breaks into my house he will be shot dead Alistair.
Ps you never donated any weapons to us in your life check your history books SOLD was the words I read.

tonydacrow
10-19-2002, 10:04 AM
In the words of a famous (infamous) American, "Can't we all just get along?" Seriously, I think everyone here respects everyone else. Please don't anyone take offense from anyone else. The only reason we are here is because we all respect each other. If I could give each of you a big, sloppy kiss I would!

Coombyeya,

Tony

Alistair Hosie
10-19-2002, 10:13 AM
I have no problem with getting along If you read what I have writen I bent over bckwards to explain that very point Time and Time again I wasn't trying to be confrontational.Seems some people read a few words then get very heated without reading the whole thing its a pitty but there we are.I started out simply to say that I had never seen a gun before going to America which is a fact.I said that people here don't want guns that is a fact.I have not and will not be critical of your policies as that would be arrogant as I don't have to live with them.I mearly pointed out to the best of my ability what the situation is here.That obviously is a source of annotyance to afew .If I have offended anyone I am sorry truely but astonished as I don't understand why . I have also said how much i like you guys and don't want to say any more as it is pointless .Alistair

mike thomas
10-19-2002, 12:30 PM
Alistair, No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that after the criminal has come calling, it is a poor time to determine the criminal's intent. It is better to be prepared for a tornado and only have a breeze blow the leaves around in your yard than to prepare for a breeze and have the house blow down. It is too late after someone has decided to harm you to decide to protect yourself. You do not get to decide the others intent. It could be to steal the spoons, rape the wife, or helter skelter. If you are not prepared to take care of yourself, you are at the mercy of both the criminal, and your neighbor's generosity.
I had someone in my house in 1976 at 2:30 am. I settled the matter with a 12 gauge double. I had just come home from work, and entered the house without turning on the lights. I was sitting on the edge of my bed taking off my shoes when my dog started growling. Now this dog was 90 lbs, and he did not even faze the intruder. My 18 month daughter was 10 feet away. No, I did not shoot, but the gun was inches from his nose when he turned and ran. We had physically fought before the wife could load the shotgun and throw it to me. He was lucent enough to realize that I was serious when I said one more step and I was removing his head.
If someone is stealing the spoons, let him/her have them, but do not give up the option of defending yourself.
So, before your kilt gets ruffled ask yourself, "If I am wrong, is it a good time to run out and purchase some sort of effective self protective device after the criminal is already in my home and harming my family?"
I buried one of my daughters in 1989. Let me tell you, you do not want to be in this position. Mike

mike thomas
10-19-2002, 01:00 PM
The lend-lease program was between governments. However, it is well documented that the civilian population of the United States donated private arms (mainly deer rifles, but others as well) to be distributed to the British home guard. Some were actually returned, others destroyed by the British government. I do not doubt that a government trying to restrict arms would not promulgate this info, but surely it is available somewhere in the UK. Mike

Alistair Hosie
10-19-2002, 01:35 PM
Mike .
I am not in disagreement with you regarding what is right and wrong in America with the gun laws.That as I have said is your business.However what we decided to do in UK I e not follow the American gun culture and abolish guns then that is that end of story not my fault sorry. Also sorry if this is distasteful but you clearly have not been reading my letters properly as I have constantly said I am in agreement with you but if the British have no passion for guns than its not my fault thats up to them. No need to take it out on me .

For some strange reason you somehow refuse to accept that it is the people who don't want guns repeat the people dont want, not the government the people its not a government plot its quite simple we really don't want them.I'm beginning to wish we did to get some peace between us on the issue I am not your enemy I am a friend dont get angry with me about it I'm just the messenger .As far as the war weapons are concerned I apologise again I had no idea you were talking about a few hunting rifles for Dad's Army I thought you were talking about the ships an other weaponary we PURCHASED FROM YOUR country again I am greatful for the assistance bur we are still in debt over the second world war. So it is misleading to say that the weapons were ever donated that's rubbish.
I have a sneaking suspicion you are just trying to deliberately make mischeif and I'm not going to get involved in an anti American /British campaign for you or anyone else.

As far as your daughter is concerned although you didn't say how she died and I have no right to know or ask (and I'm not)all I can say is (and I am speaking genuinely from the heart) you and your wife must be heartbroken and I will say a prayer for you tonight.

However your assumtion that I have not suffered this myself is wrong My own brother was stabbed to death last year in front of his sixteen year old son who tried desperately to cradle his dads head whist phoning for an ambulance he was forty .

I want to repeat that I love you guys you have shown me great kindness and I won't forget it we need not go down the route of falling out over such a silly thing Mike God bless you and your dear wife Alistair

lone waddie
10-19-2002, 06:42 PM
As a point of information, The United States DID give weapons and war material to the battered isle of England during the early days of world war 2, (Prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor). Then president Franklin Roosevelt and the people of the US felt very strongly about supporting the UK as the V2 rockets dropped from the sky on London. SOME of the weapons where returned, SOME where paid for by England, MOST of the debt was forgiven by the US government after the war. History states these as facts. Respectfully, Tim

Al Messer
10-19-2002, 08:10 PM
Hey, Alistair! Calm down, man! We ain't angry at you, we just discuss things in a loud, strident voice at times over here! We appreciate your contributions to this list, so please don't stop.

Al

P.S. You ought to hear us argue politics amongst ourselves!!!!

Oso
10-19-2002, 08:15 PM
And as I recall, lend-lease was partly paid by a long-term lease on some caribbean islands. No joke.

Alistair Hosie
10-19-2002, 08:39 PM
Ione your total innacuracy makes me laugh out loud,if you do your homewoprk first before quoting facts it would be most helpful .
You are making a lot of mistakes .If you quote facts then have the courtesy to be factually correct.
There is no such place on this [planet called the isle of England.If there is please tell me where it is as I would be fascinated to know.
FACT 1
This isle of England you speak of consists of three countries not one FACT.Each with their own language and culture.ENGLAND SCOTLAND and Wales and of course Northern Ireland so in effect four countries.
FACT 2
Each of those countries were bombed during the second world war not just London.And it is very angering to be told otherwise. Scotland specially around Glasgow suffered very badly as we had a large ship building capacity here many died they were not English . It amazes me how many Americans are unaware that Britain is not England obviously your geography teachers are not well enough trained over there .
I will not argue with you about the payments as I have my opinion and you have yours.I can tell you that as well as cash concessions were made over many years to reduce the burden but that is another story.I don't wish to appear ungrateful for the American help at that time but you make it sound as if you came along like Superman and won the war single handedly.How charitable Alistair P s please tell whichever teacher taught you that England was an isle he or she was also wrong

Alistair Hosie
10-19-2002, 08:47 PM
Thanks Al sorry I'm like a bear with a sore head all day I heard thrud's ill I've been trying to contact him without answer I'm relly worried I can't get it out of my mind .I hope he's ok and I hear from him soon If any of you guys hear from him for gods sake let me know as we've become good friends over the last months

Sorry to all Im not myself today atall Alistair

Oso
10-19-2002, 10:08 PM
Another thing to bear in mind is that the UK had a heck of a lot more damage in WWII than anybody realizes these days if they don't read history. And, it went on for years, not 8 hours one day.

The biggest part of it that everyone (maybe not) has heard about is the "blitz", after Hitler gave up on military targets and went after cities.

But there were night raids long after that, all over the UK. And then cruise missiles (V1) and ballistic missiles (V2), just exactly what a "Scud" is based on.
V2 did not make any noise when incoming, because the fall was well supersonic. And they were only vaguely aimed. No sound, then a big bang when a ton of HE went off wherever it fell. Good thing they didn't have enough range for other areas.

So the next time someone gets upset about 9-11, just remember that 3 times as many were killed in London alone, over the course of the war, by missiles, never mind anything else, and never mind any other cities.

And, 9-11 generated relatively few injured, where the UK had several times the injured as killed.

When some Americans (I am a US native) make noise about 9-11, I just wonder what the folks in the UK and continental europe, not to mention Japan, think. They must think we are pantywaisted ninnies who have forgotten what THEY had to deal with.

Not to minimize anything, 9-11 was an attack of major proportions.
But folks don't know squat if they don't know the history of WWII. How about a month of 9-11? or six months? Or more, for our then enemies.

In ONE NIGHT, an area of Tokyo the size of the whole downtown NY, was burned to a crisp. And they did it several times. I believe the killed in that one raid were estimated at nearly 100,000.

Sorry to rant, but I'm with Alastair, people who whine and don't know history get me grumpy. And I am mostly grumpy with others than those here. You-all just reminded me of being grumpy with others.

Rustybolt
10-19-2002, 11:19 PM
What was the original question,again? I forgot.

mike thomas
10-20-2002, 12:49 AM
Alistair, I am neither angry or trying to make mischief. However, I doubt that you speak for the people of -----(call it what you will). Sorry, but I have heard from others in ----- that they were forced to surrender arms against their wishes. Perhaps that was just propaganda. As is the idea that gun control in ----- started after WW1 when the commoner came back from the trenches wiser, more beligerent and feared by the upper classes. I guess in large part history is what is fed to you.
If I went up to the UI and sniffed around, I would leave with the idea that gun control was the desire of the majority of the people in the US. The problem with this is that the sample is too small, not random, and not representative of the population.
If someone chooses to gamble, that is their business. I neither want nor need anyone's sympathy. What I am telling you is that it is the ****s to know that your poor decision was paid for by someone close to you. I offered that to you not with the idea that you had not known suffering, but rather in the spirit that someone else might offer tooling help. If I have never performed a specific task, I appreciate it when someone with experience speaks out. I wish to hell someone had forwarned me of the risks I took with my daughter's life. The End, Mike

1erful
10-20-2002, 01:12 AM
GENTLEMEN: I hope that I am quoting the man correctly "Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few". I am eternally grateful to the FEW, the Fighter Pilots of the RAF and its Comonwealth for winning The "Battle of Britain, for were it not for this victory the war against Nazi Germany would have been much longer and much more bloody.
My friends in Great Britain, Thank you. Because of your country's determination we can have this discussion and still be friends. WALT WARREN

Al Messer
10-20-2002, 09:16 AM
May I humbly and heartily reccomend to the members of this list two publications that will clear up a lot of the above mis-understanding? "The History of the English-speaking Peoples", and "The History of World War II" Both of these are by the late Sir Winston S. Churchill, who, in my mind at least, was THE greatest man of the 20th century.

Alistair Hosie
10-20-2002, 09:16 AM
First of all I feel terrible about sept 11 and am very angry about it it was a major incident not only for America but we all felt the pain and we should never forget it it was one of the most awful things I have seen all those people hanging onto the windows and some jumping god it doesn't bear thinking about.
I would go as far as to say it will and should go down in history as another pearl harbour.(no Offense to those at pearl harbour)
What transpired here in ww2 was a terrible tragedy we suffered almost nightly bombings here in Scotland over Port Glasgow Greenock and Whiteinch etc.we were almost flattened terrible bombing campaign as well as London and many other counties in England but we did too .
It would be unfair however just to believe that the bombings of ww2 were just one sided of course we bombed the hell out of The German cities Dresden Berlin Hamburg etc and many human beings civilians were killed by us too we must be fair war is a terrible thing In fact its my belief that Churchill started the bombing of cities particularly to target civilians with BOMBER HARRIS read about him.Churchill was no saint and although he is remembered by Americans as a great war hero he was an arse in many ways and an evil man with his own people.
As I said before he sent in troops with fixed bayonets on striking miners etc killed them charged at them with soldiers on horseback because they had the audacity to strike for better wages .
Mike I do hope we can remain friends after this I really don't want this to be an issue of conflict you and I have suffered enough without that but both what you heard about the decommisioning of guns is true and untrue I studied psychology as a student recently( a mature student) 50% of the course was on statistics believe me I know that they can be manipulated to show what you want if you leave out the variables which are not to your taste.There were a lot of people as you say who were forced to give up their guns many collectors who demanded compensation and they were angry that is a fact .
However what you probably did not read in that report was that they only made up a very very small fraction of the people here (in the isle of England !)who in great numbers demanded that the government do this .I'm afraid that's democracy like it or not that's how things are and when a few people get their feathers ruffled by the vast majority of course they get passionate and annoyed and make their voices heard, but the vast majority wanted it that way whether you or even sometimes I like it we have to go with that.
for example There is a big motion here at the moment to outlaw fox hunting government want it to be outlawed from parliament as it is cruel to animals the pro fox hunters come out in droves to demonstrate ,if you saw the demonstrations you would automatically think they were in the majority but they are not sometimes these reports are very misleading I cannot convince you otherwise but I have not been fed this by the media or the government but the people around me.
You won't be convinced that it is they who don't want guns.You just have to ask people here anyone will tell you I am correct we dont want them.From your friend in the beautiful isle of england Alistair http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

p s have heard from Thrud he's alive but not well on new medication makes him too sleepy to write in at moment .

Oso
10-20-2002, 12:18 PM
Both those are interesting reading.

Churchill was the right man for the time he was in office, but I think if you read the books mentioned (there are about 10 or so) you will note that he had his faults and "strong and wrong" opinions as well. The post-war conversion to socialism didn't go down him very well.

Still, he was a standout for what he did at the time. The American president would have done well to listen concerning the Soviets.

It is interesting that post-war the US became somewhat more conservative and the Brits turned socialist. Probably has to do with the fact that the US was essentially untouched physically by the war, which happened "elsewhere".

it is also interesting that post-war, we still had factories that were 80 years old. The places which had to rebuild turned into our masters, industrially, and some still are in other ways (the EU will have us using euros to pay our taxes before you know it).

Alistair Hosie
10-20-2002, 04:50 PM
Al Messer Please tell me
how could anyone who cared so little for the lives of his own people and sent in troops on horseback with fixed bayonets to disperse them, sending them fleeing for their lives some lost their lives as a result of this simply because they were stiking for better conditions be regarded by any fair minded person as the greatest man of the twentieth century.?
perhaps you had never heard of this .
I am sure you won't find it in Churchills own writings were he took great care to conceal these things Alistair

Oso
10-20-2002, 09:33 PM
Alastair, "great" does not necessarily mean "all good", might not be "mostly good" even. It does take at least one major accomplishment.

Churchill has a shot at that designation simply because he was at the center of things at a very difficult and trying time. He did hold things together, often almost by himself, when others had or would have failed.
Chamberlain had already failed, and probably would have lost the war if he had even agreed to fight it.

Without Churchill, you might have learned german (or even Russian) as your "native" language, since you were born in 1950. He clearly was at the center of the major changes in the world of the 20th century. He was also probably capable of being an A-hole and totally ruthless when required. He would have failed if not.

I don't know about the bayonets. If it was a strike in a critical industry during the war, maybe I would have done the same in his place. Otherwise, probably a bad decision.

There are others, Nixon was responsible for a lot of US deaths, as were Kennedy and Johnson before him. Kennedy actually started the US involvement in Vietnam. All for naught, other than experience for a generation of officers. And two out of the three are regarded as good presidents.

Jaymo
10-22-2002, 02:15 AM
Funny how Nixon's demonized, though he got us out of Nam.
Johnson seems to be well regarded although he escalated the action in Nam.
I won't even touch on Kennedy.

Alistair Hosie
10-22-2002, 06:02 AM
Oso Churchill did a sterling job during the war but otherwise his political career was full of questionable deeds.I take on board your points and agree with them wholeheartedly The fixed bayonet charge ordered by him against unarmed British civilians happened in Tonypandy in South Wales before the first world war around 1910 I think without looking it up this was carried out by the 18th Hussars on Horseback as I say this action was ordered by him. Alistair

mbensema
10-22-2002, 08:41 AM
Alistair, you opened my eyes to a side of Churchill that I, and probably most Americans, did not know about him. I did a search on Churchill and it seems that he did send the troops in response to the striking miners in 1910, but it was the police that killed the 2. Whatever his accomplishments in WWII, it seems you are right he is not the beloved leader of England we thought him to be.

Mike

Al Messer
10-22-2002, 08:57 AM
W.W.II "Big Three: Churchill, Stalin, FDR

Churchill's mis-deeds/mistakes we have already heard. Joseph Stalin murdered 40 million "kulaks" in order to "collectivize" the farms in Russia, FDR "stole" thousands of acres of land in order to establish National Parks. None of them were angles.

Point is, they worked together to win the war against tyranny.

Can't we just get along together in order to promote our hobby??

Alistair Hosie
10-22-2002, 10:06 AM
Al Messer I agree with you totaly lets get back to enjoying ourselves this is wearing thin we don't need to be confrontational over our points of view we are after all just all friends Alistair

Oso
10-22-2002, 01:49 PM
works for me

I thought the discussion was interesting, and educational.
For what amounts to a political discussion, it has been really quite polite.

Not like the tractor boards

wwheelock
10-22-2002, 09:33 PM
Back to the original question on building a blackpowder rifle, It's really not that hard, and the only tools one really needs are files, chisels and patience. The books that I mentioned two pages ago will get you off to a good start. You can purchase the parts from several different suppliers that advertise in the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association's Muzzle Blasts magazine.(www.nmlra.org ). You can start with a stockblank, or a precarved stock. The barrel, breechplug, Lock and Triggers, buttplate, trigger guard, thimbles, nosecap and sights can all be purchased. You will have to fit the breechplug to the barrel, inlet all the parts into the wood and shape the stock, all with files and chisels. The one machine tool that I find to be the most useful is a drill press. A lathe can be handy if you put the lock together from a kit, and a milling machine is nice for cutting dovetails in the barrel, but all this can be done by hand.

There are no federal restrictions on building a muzzleloader. Muzzleloaders are not firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Bill Wheelock
Indiana Field Representative
National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association

mike thomas
10-23-2002, 12:13 AM
Alistair, No problem on this end. I finished up a 4.0 psych major (3.81 overall dual B.S.) in '98 at age 46. Mike

[This message has been edited by mike thomas (edited 10-22-2002).]