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John Lawson
10-15-2005, 06:28 PM
You can make yourself feel better in a number of ways, obviously. But, if you sit back and think of the good American people in South Bend, Indiana or Kalamazoo, Michigan who are going hungry while American hating Chinese are getting their daily fix of rice...while uncaring middle-men make an enormous markup...you can award yourself a medal for betraying the things the country was founded on by saying to yourself "This little bit of commerce will not drag America down..." But, bit by bit, America is becoming a third world country due to your consistent trade with America's avowed enemies.
Get yourself a bumper sticker that reads: "I don't give a damn about American workers; Buy Chinese.

hoffman
10-15-2005, 06:44 PM
Thanks John. Hell, I even ate some General Tso's chicken for dinner...

I'm a poor guy and without cheap chicom tools a lot of guys like myself couldn't afford the hobby. I don't fish or hunt and couldn't give a crap about sports.

If I had the $$ I'd buy American, but I don't. What's a guy to do?

I mean, who can afford $10,000 for a SB Heavy 10? Maybe the gov't... but that's MY FRIGGIN' MONEY TOO!

kevinro
10-15-2005, 06:47 PM
That might sound very good, but the harsh reality is that most people can't afford a US made machine. Many people own South Bend machines, but those machines were made in the 50's and 60's, and do nothing for the current economy.

So, while you may not have supported the fine folks of South Bend, you did support the longshoremen of Seattle and Portland, the truckers, train workers, and other cargo folks, the employees of Grizzly in Bellingham WA, etc. The alternative was to purchase nothing at all.

Welcome to the new world.

Leigh
10-15-2005, 06:50 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hoffman:
...If I had the $$ I'd buy American, but I don't. What's a guy to do?...</font>

Buy used American-made equipment. There's tons of it out there, at reasonable prices, and far better quality.

The USA is bleeding money, and the chinese are sucking it up like a vampire in a dragon suit.

Next time you complain about the potholes in your street, or the lousy education your kids are getting, or the lack of Social Security benefits, look in the mirror.

------------------
Leigh W3NLB

hoffman
10-15-2005, 07:24 PM
Oh, I have my share of old American iron also http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif I'm just not in the "all or nothing" camp.

PBMW
10-15-2005, 07:37 PM
Another thing no one is considering, is the amount of money these Chicom machines return to our economy as finished goods. I have a number of them and do a respectable business with them. One has to consider the return on investment...

But then...I don't do this as a hobby either.

Jim
Phinney Bay Machine Works

Rustybolt
10-15-2005, 08:06 PM
My South Bend was made in Korea.

zl1byz
10-15-2005, 08:28 PM
Well I probably shouldn't wade in here but.

I get sick of these threads, yea I know I shouldn't read them.

I'll add a couple of miss informed idea's of my own to think about.

It is clear China & the USA are two large powerfull nations. It is also clear there is a certin amount of distrust on both sides.

I see two options.

Either you trade with each other and in doing so the Chinese people get used to earning money and like it and as others have pointed out want more so thier wages go up which brings about ballance again so eventually both economies co-exist.

Or you let the distrust rule, you don't attempt to trade and understand each other finally entering into a bomb slinging match causing lots of greif and destroying both economies in the process.

Well I am only one ignorant Kiwi down under and I probably need an education but that is how I see it.

I would like to add that these discussions don't add anything to this forum.

As an outsider from both parties been discussed here I would probably more easily associate with the USA and it saddens me to here some of the comments being made.

John.



[This message has been edited by zl1byz (edited 10-15-2005).]

speedy
10-15-2005, 08:52 PM
John, you`re correct there but what we have to remember is just because a man smiles and shakes your hand, doesn`t make him a trusted friend; that takes a while longer and involves patience, understanding and a degree of guarded trust until the friendship is proven.
As you well know, we too have a members in our government and the business world without any patriotism. They appear to be businessmen/women without integrity.

as an aside; I thought it was the 15-10-05 today http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//confused.gif
Ken



[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 10-15-2005).]

zl1byz
10-15-2005, 09:09 PM
Very true Ken.

Oh remain rivals by all means. I am all for patriotism. Life is like a race and we should strive to win, but don't let hate consume you because sometimes you can get blinded by it and the enemy comes from within.

John.

Endmill
10-15-2005, 10:26 PM
Hail all Ye who are either over the hill or hidding under a rock !! Support Jessie Jackson for President! The South and the rustbowl and the rednecks will rise again and we can go back to the great nation we were in 1930! Everyone getting some and I'm left out!!!

A zero sum game is an excuse from a guy who can't get a job! Importing products from abroad does not diminish national income. It enhances it! Our national economy last year was some thing like 13 trillion dollars. How much did you contribute to it ???

I see nothing wrong in purchasing inexpensive Chineese or otherwise toys. A home shop is not a manufacturing facility, it is a hobby. As a business, I would be looking at the type of NC equipment shown in the History Channel program. The world's best is still predominately American.

In reality, the only competition anymore is from foreign sources. American firms need competition to get off their duffs. The auto industry was a good example with Jap cars.

I get tired of tedious argument for old American iron as if it was some sacred relic. Compare the price of various makes against a definite set of specifications and go accordingly, or build your own.

I just bought two 6" crescent wrenches for $3.00 each (Chineese) They work just fine and when my kids loose these I am only out $3.00 instead of $12.00

Flatline's Up!
10-15-2005, 10:51 PM
Does anyone honestly think with our larger companies moving overseas themselves or south/north thanks to NAFTA, with our governments help, that our little purchases of old tired used machines are going to help our national deficit?

Who the hell in our "Home Shop" status buys Brand New American Iron (BNAI tm) just to make that sterling engine that they spent their hard earnd social security checks on (that I won't see by the way it's going with my current age of 38)...

Criminies man, if it wern't for import tools, and import cars, and import food, America would currently be an empty friggin wasteland.

*off political milk crate

Guido
10-15-2005, 10:55 PM
Son inlaw just finished contracting a nice size building extension for the HAAS people in Oxnard. The building, actually an overhead extension of an existing facility, covers an expanded dock/shipping area where machines are crated for shipment abroad.

Irony? Their best customer is China. I won't disclose the numbers/ratios mentioned, you wouldn't believe them anyway.

JM

Jack Burns
10-15-2005, 11:34 PM
The real problem is that America is now purchasing huge amounts of consumer goods and non-productive war materials with funds that should be going into domestic capital investment and paying the bill with debt instruments held by potential future adversaries like China. So the question is, what happens when the day comes that our international creditors decide to cash in their chits and demand payment in real substance? Will we start forking over actual pieces of our country to them or will we be forced to protect ourselves militarily?

J Tiers
10-15-2005, 11:40 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flatline's Up!:
Does anyone honestly think with our larger companies moving overseas themselves or south/north thanks to NAFTA, with our governments help, that our little purchases of old tired used machines are going to help our national deficit?
</font>

You are SO far off the point...........

Of COURSE it has a benefit to buy used US iron.....

EVERY BUCK that does NOT go to support china is good..

You may not be employing a factory worker here, but you are doing your part to "unemploy" one in our enemy's factory.

RAD1
10-16-2005, 12:45 AM
Has anyone tried to buy an American made watch lately. You'll be extremely fortunate to find one and if you do, the average working man can't afford one. That goes for most anything today, clothes, electronics etc....

Scatterplot
10-16-2005, 02:31 AM
I'm with the guys who can't afford American stuff. At all. I'M IN COLLEGE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. I can barely save up for a Chinese machine, much less THINK about an American one (drools http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif)

Tinkerer
10-16-2005, 03:46 AM
As I see it the trouble is not with the regular workaday folks. The real trouble is with your Wall Street make nothing types... they buy out a Company and sell it off and then take the purchased IP and send it off shore to be made and resold here. All the while getting a Golden Parachute as the jump on the next company to kill off. The Larry Liquidators are the real reason we're at this point. They look at the short quick money to hell with the rest of the people. I used to look and only buy US made items... then the things just where no longer made in the US. So don't bytch at the people that have little to no choice as to want is sold in the US. So like many others I look for the best value that fits my need and buy it.

Flatline's Up!
10-16-2005, 07:30 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J Tiers:
You are SO far off the point...........

Of COURSE it has a benefit to buy used US iron.....

EVERY BUCK that does NOT go to support china is good..

You may not be employing a factory worker here, but you are doing your part to "unemploy" one in our enemy's factory.</font>


I'm wondering if you take the vast amount of time to research each bar of soap, and tire, and keyboard, and tv, and (x) you buy and find out if the company is owned by the chinese (or any non US source) or not before you purchase it or not... if you don't aren't you being a hipocrite?

There are things that would seem to be out of the common mans control, is my point.

How much of your tooling is bought 100% new and US made?
How much of your income (%) do you spend on this tooling?
More than likely the rest of your income is greater than your tool purchases, so once again, are you spending it on only US made products?
What kind of car do you drive? is there even such a thing as a 100% US made car anymore? nope. So do you quit driving?

Man, we are all making out the best we can. Making the best choices we can. I'm not against you, I'm just trying to state that in my reality, I can't afford to pay for 100% new US made tooling for my small hobby sized shop, and I admit that I refuse to feel bad/guilty or even sorry about it.

Now, if you lived near me, and we had 10 or so others that lived near us, and we had a communal shop where we each invested in tooling and were able to leverage our money by not repeating tool purchases of each other, then we could all afford a US shop... but wait, that's kida like communism, and then it'd start another rant...

Do what you can. Make a stand if you can, and feel good about it man.

wierdscience
10-16-2005, 12:46 PM
Funny,I have old American iron all over the place here,most of it has had a ton of work done on it just to make it operational.Some things I have noticed about that equipment is even if a machine is 40+ years old that doesn't mean that all the parts are US made even if it was a "war machine".

Look at todays Bridgeport,import castings,import bearings,god only knows where the motors come from and the list goes on,can you really say it's American made? Or is it just a label?

While we are on the subject,name one US mfg that makes Mills,lathes or even drillpresses in the size that homeshoppers use in this country besides SouthBend...having trouble I'll bet.Yes sure there are the micro machines like Sheline and Taig and they are workable machines,but you can't chuck anything bigger than a coffee cup in one of those without much trouble.

There are a few companies that make industrial sized stuff,but I know of few coporations that can afford the're stuff let alone a guy in his basement or even one starting out in business.

I for one can't afford a new Southbend,$10k is too much anyway for what you get,plus that doesn't include another $4k for chucks and tooling before you can even use it.I have rebuilt and currently own 15 pieces of American Iron,I have spent the price of new asian equipment in the process and have little to show for my investment.I have decided that I will build a new shop,with American concrete,Mexican purlins and Brazilian roofmetal.When it is finished 12 pieces of that American iron will hit Ebay and I will replace them with new Taiwan machines.I may not be able to get parts for them,but I can't get parts for my old stuff either so it's a wash.I'll still have to tweek the Tai stuff,but there will be a lot less scraping to do and the bearings in the American stuff where all made overseas anyway even in 1940.

Oh,and BTW,the pool of old iron that's worth having is drying up quick,most of it is smelter food.That's the #1 reason I'll be buying new Tai stuff,I'm tired of working on crap for months before I can make a single chip with it.I work on junk for a living,after the first 40-50 hrs in a week I am tired of it.Yes I'll replace some bolts and scrape fish guts off it,but it will be making chips in a couple hours instead of a couple months.

Swarf&Sparks
10-17-2005, 11:57 AM
Oh, isn't that the much-vaunted "free market economy" at work? We in Oz have heard it propounded by a number of large 'western powers'.

Paul F
10-17-2005, 01:08 PM
It's ONLY a "Free Market Economy" when your competitiors are NOT government owned and financed.

I"m a big fan of the Free Market vs government control, interference, and regulation of business... but it only works to improve the market when BOTH sides of the market have to make profits and take their lumps without government bail-outs. As long as the Chinese industry is largely controlled and owned by the Chinese Gov't, and uses slave labor to make goods for export, it is NOT a "Free Market".

Paul F.

Swarf&Sparks
10-17-2005, 03:19 PM
Ah, I see. So not propped up by government like, frinstance, US agriculture?

Evan
10-17-2005, 03:36 PM
Or US Forestry...

Paul F
10-17-2005, 04:20 PM
&lt;Ah, I see. So not propped up by government like, frinstance, US agriculture?

Yup... perfect example of a NOT-free-market. But as long as competitors in that market are also "propped up" by THEIR governments, not a lot to be done on that score (much to my chagrin...).

Paul F.

J Tiers
10-17-2005, 05:06 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Flatline's Up!:

I'm wondering if you take the vast amount of time to research each bar of soap, and tire, and keyboard, and tv, and (x) you buy and find out if the company is owned by the chinese (or any non US source) or not before you purchase it or not... if you don't aren't you being a hipocrite?

</font>

Nope, I'm just making the choices when I can.......

The fact that it isn't always possible to find the origin or ownership does NOT make it irrelevant to look, and make a choice when you can.

That old, tired, argument point that "if you don't make every choice the way you argue for, then you are only a hypocrite and your argument is false" actually isn't an argument point.

It's a "roll over and play dead" response.... actually has more to do with evidence of resignation, surrender, and the lack of will to make any effort than it does as a debate point.

And yes, I DO check the box for a label "hecho en china" when I shop..... I DO make buying decisions on that basis........ and yes I will in fact often pay somewhat more to avoid the chinese product.

Just what do you suppose drives the choice of china? Sometimes (Stanley, maybe) it is apparently pure corporate greed. But often it is the loss of market share....

Guess what.... you are part of that market share.... you and a lot of other people....

You gonna cut and run, or you gonna shoot when you have a target?

Evan
10-17-2005, 05:09 PM
"But as long as competitors in that market are also "propped up" by THEIR governments, not a lot to be done on that score (much to my chagrin...)."

And when they aren't?

Leigh
10-17-2005, 05:11 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J Tiers:
...and yes I will in fact often pay somewhat more to avoid the chinese product.</font>

And so will I. Amen, Brother!

------------------
Leigh W3NLB

Leigh
10-17-2005, 05:17 PM
S&S:

A "free-market economy" is based on the expectation that the standards of living of both partners are roughly equal. Our trade with the countries of Western Europe would be a good example. Equals dealing with equals. That's great for everybody.

But when some government decides to attack us with wages a tenth of ours, that's not a "free market" anymore. It's warfare, just as surely as sending armored infantry divisions across our borders.

Only you can choose which side you're on. But you ARE on one side or the other. You can't be on both.

------------------
Leigh W3NLB

RAD1
10-17-2005, 05:34 PM
It's quit obvious that nobody here can always buy american made, and it seems to only be getting harder to do. So what can we, the average working person do realistically to change this situation?

BillH
10-17-2005, 06:01 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RAD1:
It's quit obvious that nobody here can always buy american made, and it seems to only be getting harder to do. So what can we, the average working person do realistically to change this situation?</font>
Average working person.. Not quite sure what that means, nearly everyone works their ass off including rich people.
I believe its been said before, all the Southbend lathes made in the USA, even back in the 1930's and 1940's were not cheap for the times, they were still a major investment. Work with what you can. This is all part of capitalism and supply and demand. It does not favor any one country or industry , everything and everyone is ruled by it.

[This message has been edited by BillH (edited 10-17-2005).]

Furnace
10-17-2005, 06:25 PM
Nothing like paying to be hated, it makes me sleep good at night.

Leigh
10-17-2005, 06:36 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RAD1:
...So what can we, the average working person do realistically to change this situation?</font>

I recently received some chinese-made screws from McMaster-Carr. This was a surprise, since most of their screws are made in Taiwan or Switzerland.

I returned them with a statement that I don't buy chinerse products. They issued a credit, no questions asked. It doesn't take many such incidents to get their attention.

I now have a statement on my POs stating that chinese products are non-compliant and will be returned.

------------------
Leigh W3NLB

[This message has been edited by Leigh (edited 10-17-2005).]

Weston Bye
10-17-2005, 06:55 PM
In no particular defense of China...
The place where I work has started dealing with China. Sub assemblies and machined parts. I hate it, but here is what I understand: The issue at hand is not to maximize profits, but merely SURVIVAL. When I started there, they were living in a fool's paradise, working three shifts, throwing money around. I was promised grand profit sharing, bonuses, etc. About that time, the bottom slowly began falling out. None of the promised glories came to pass. Competition, both local and overseas has eroded our sales. Many of our US component machining, stamping and molding suppliers as well as mold makers have gone out of business. We reluctantly went to China. My boss went early on and again recently and found the place to be improving. His impressions are similar to those here:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Click on Eye-balling China.

I can't help feeling that we have cut our own throat, or at least shot ouselves in the foot, or maybe higher.

Wes

[This message has been edited by Wes1 (edited 10-17-2005).]

speedy
10-17-2005, 07:02 PM
How about buying New Zealand made? We need some help here as well boys.

Ken

Weston Bye
10-17-2005, 07:11 PM
Been buying NZ Gala apples, when in season.

Wes

Your Old Dog
10-18-2005, 03:27 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So what can we, the average working person do realistically to change this situation?</font>

Rad1, keep on living and buying what you need to get by. About the only thing you do is let your politicians know how you feel about putting dollars from our workers into the pockets of workers working for less than 1/10th of what we need to make to have a reasonable life. You can't do it all yourself, your government needs to help out a little. Don't beat yourself up over it. I think it's a good idea to complain about the child labor crap that goes on. (Walmart listened to some extent)

Speedy, I'd be happy to purchase products from any country who's workers enjoy a standard of living similar to ours. I just don't like it when some countrys "dump" their wares on our soil making it impossible for our companys to compete. My guess is NZ stuff would be comparable to our prices here.

speedy
10-18-2005, 04:37 PM
YOD, my remark was partly in jest; as we face the same or similar problems here. Our manufacturing base is diminishing as our service (slave) industries increase.
Free trade? level playing field? .. bullcrap!! It is just more sleight of hand and jiggery pokery so eventually the majority of us are earning what our Asian friends are , that is STUFF ALL! .....for the majority of people.
Still the only effect that we can exert, for the most part, is on those things immediately around us; for the rest of it? that is out of our hands.
Ken

Swarf&Sparks
10-19-2005, 08:13 AM
The average Chinese working bloke can afford to take his girlfriend out for dinner once a week as well as paying all the bills. Their standards of manufacture are as low as you're prepared to pay. Or as high.
Next?

ibewgypsie
10-19-2005, 08:38 AM
I adgree, My uncle went over there To China with the flying Tigers, knocked up a chinese girl and there has been nothing but trouble in the "family" ever since that slant eyed half chinese engineer came to America and Joined the IBEW UNION and became a American citizen. By the way, when his chinese employers found out he was half white they fired him.

We should run all the white son of beaches out of our country and give it back to the indians too. The ones they killed with disease and thier fire sticks should be resurected and able to live again. Bring on the Ghost Dance..

ONLY AMERICAN INDIANS are the true americans, All the rest of you people are invaders, oh.. I forgot I am half white.. oops.. which side of the fence should I stand on today? Have my people been paid Holocast money like the jews in Germany? NO. I want a check for everything brought into this country polluting it and causing problems and costing money. SO I want a share of all the money you have made in your life here in "MY" country.

ALL You white people should quit bringing chinese crap into our country, bring back the deer and buffalo, I want to squat naked in a hut with no heat and no electricity. I want my children to live to the ripe old age of 29-30..

SO, GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN, take your chinese tools with you. It is the right thing to do.

By the way, if you are stupid and don't understand, I am making a point.

Want to feel guilty? feel guilty about "that"...

------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia

J Tiers
10-19-2005, 09:22 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
"But as long as competitors in that market are also "propped up" by THEIR governments, not a lot to be done on that score (much to my chagrin...)."

And when they aren't?</font>

Most of the biggies are.... Airbus is directly tax supported, Boeing is bought from... big difference.

Zaibatsus in Japan are quasi-governmental.... they are conglomerates with money backing as great as many larger nations,

China provides a huge amount of support to thier industry, in the form of preferential laws, not money......

Or the LACK of a law, as with copyrights, patents etc, which they cheerfully ignore as stupid western concepts which can nevertheless be used to drive the westerners to destruction....

Support comes in many forsm, a fact which the self-righteous naysayers forget.

J Tiers
10-19-2005, 09:30 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:

ONLY AMERICAN INDIANS are the true americans, All the rest of you people are invaders, oh..

</font>

Yes, you are making a point....I DO get it....

Just for the record, however, and for the "really" stupid, only the FIRST Indians are real americans.....

And those would probably be the Seminole and the ones chased into Mexico and other far places by later invaders who ended up over the plains areas etc......

There are "invaders" and there are invaders....

The Europeans should move back too. Examples:

The Normans in France and England must ALL immediately go back to Sweden and Norway where they came from.

The Russians must give back all but the Caucasus to the Kazakhs and the rest of the native population.

When those mighty superior "eu are a peon" folks walk the walk, the rest of us will follow suit. Don't be packing just yet, though.

The list goes on........

J Tiers
10-19-2005, 09:34 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Lawson:
You can make yourself feel better in a number of ways, obviously. But, if you sit back and think of the good American people in South Bend, Indiana or Kalamazoo, Michigan who are going hungry while American hating Chinese are getting their daily fix of rice...</font>

They aren't starving, though. You are supporting the chinese by paying welfare and so forth to the displaced workers...... Thus indirectly supporting the running dogs of corporate greed who moved the industry away, not to speak of the chinese who benefit.

PBMW
10-19-2005, 10:27 AM
Hell...I AM the running dog of corporate greed!!!!!

Jim

spope14
10-19-2005, 10:57 AM
What kills me is that even when you buy what you think is American, it turns out to be Chinese or partial Chinese.

Is i possible that American end mill companies use Chinese HSS for blanks to make the finished end mills. It would seem that a few smaller manufacturers might. Just one example of many - where a company turns out the finished item, but the raw or stock materials may come from the Chicom, the old Russian plants (Titanium, and a great deal of Aluminum), OR japan

My great American Auto, the 1997 Ferd Ranger is made from parts all over the world - think it is actually a Mazda.

Final comment. HAAS machines are the fast becoming, if not already, the biggest selling CNC machines in the world. Much of that machine is US Made. Other than that, and Light Machines in Manchester NH.... who now makes US Machine Tools or production or tool room quality (not HSM sherline, but actual machines for 24-7 use). Honest question, I would like to know for my benefit as I start looking.

ibewgypsie
10-19-2005, 11:14 AM
I got into robotics cause I saw how many American workers I could replace with a machine.

When all the work is done by machines, only the man repairing the machines will have work.



------------------
David Cofer, Of:
Tunnel Hill, North Georgia

Evan
10-19-2005, 11:32 AM
JT,

In the case of the softwood lumber trade between Canada and the US there is no subsidy or unfair government support given by the Canadian governments. There is also no damage being caused to the US industry by the Canadian export of softwood lumber to the US. This is the finding repeatedly by the NAFTA panel which has a majority of US reps sitting on it. The US Commerce dept. refuses to drop the illegal duty and has stated they will not refund the billions collected either. The US is just as guilty of unfair and illegal competitive practices as any other country.

People here on this forum complain about cut rate labour and poor working conditions in China which makes it impossible for the US to compete. Look in your own back yard. US sawmills, especially in the southern US, do exactly the same thing compared to Canadian mills. They have pitiful safety standards and pay less than half or even a third of what Canadian workers get. My son-in-law sits in an airconditioned cab operating a joystick on the "Merch" for a shift listening to his MP3 player. He is responsible for the entire output of the mill for that shift and is paid accordingly.

Many US mills haven't been upgraded since the 60s or 70s and still have guys pulling boards off the green chain by hand with no hard hats or even steel toed boots getting maybe $10 per hour. We don't even have that job here at most mills and a sawdust sweeper starts at $20 per hour.

The situation between the Canada and the US is analagous to the situation between the US and China. Don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.
-----------------------

As for the first people in North America it is very possible that they were Europeans. There is relatively new evidence for this. See here:

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf127/sf127p01.htm

ibewgypsie
10-19-2005, 12:17 PM
Evan: are you aware about 60% of the Cherokees had blue eyes?

How about they lived in round burrowed homes akin to vikings?

They had laws concerning the marriage outside the tribe.

I am a mutt. I used to hate everyone not like me, There is nobody else like me, I got over it.

The Mohawks? they have over 280 words with same pronounciation and meaning as the hebrew language.

John Lawson
10-19-2005, 12:52 PM
Actually, American Indians are NOT Native American. Feel the knobs on your spine. They indicate to anthropologists that you are of Asian (Oriental) origin.
The only truly "native" Americans were the American Bison, the saber tooth cats and the wooly mammoths. Even our pet dogs and cats are "foreigners".
When America was moving West, we absorbed all sorts of mostly poor immigrants into a group of self-sufficient and prosperous people we called "Americans" despite racial, ethnic and social differences. We supported each other and for the most part, we all got along. It was a simpler time, now gone forever.
"Golly, Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore."

Weston Bye
10-19-2005, 12:52 PM
quote IBEW:
I got into robotics cause I saw how many American workers I could replace with a machine.

Yeah, me too, except that my machines went to GM, Ford, Visteon and Delphi. All UAW territory and the workers the machines were to replace were still paid to stand around watching the machines do the work. Bad move by the union, worse decision by management, got Delphi to where they are today.

Wes

J Tiers
10-19-2005, 01:21 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.
-----------------------

As for the first people in North America it is very possible that they were Europeans. There is relatively new evidence for this.
</font>

Oh, I don't think Canadians are any better than anyone else.... they have their problems, as well as logical and ethical inconsistencies and hypocritical stands also.

It's the hooman condition, as a decent look at yourself (no matter who you are) would reveal....

International relations are conducted at the same level of teh brain stem as playground disputes between 10 year olds.... and if you don't agree, you must be very trusting and easily led by devious persons.

However, trying to equate timber disputes with a national policy of world domination by undercutting and "hollowing out", is taking an equally trusting and unquestioning stand. Both Japan and China have or are trying to do just that.

The only chance for the west to prevail is that we are steadily corrupting the chinese.... They are going from a pliant workforce to a large number of aging but demanding workers.

And don't forget the aging.... the 1 family = 1 child rule has led to an increase of the average age of chinese citizens. That means they have created a limit... for the moment.

It also means, and I think they know this, that they have a relatively short window of time in which to attack, and must do so soon.

It remains to be seen if they still think they can attack successfully. And what form the attack takes, military/physical, or economic, or a blackmail style.

As for europeans being first in NA....? As with the normans and the russians I mentioned above, we ain't going anywhere soon. That's whether the theory from the article is true, or more bogus science invented to support someone's preconceived notions.

Evan
10-19-2005, 01:30 PM
The solutrean hypothesis of European colonization is actually supported by some hard evidence including otherwise inexplicable DNA evidence found in some American Indian tribes. It is challenging the preconcieved notions of anthropologists that are so strongly set that to even suggest the idea that there is something to look for in the pre-clovis time frame is enought to jepardize your career.

John Lawson
10-19-2005, 01:38 PM
Yes, these are members of the Flat Earth Society who howled us down when we mentioned the Nebular Hypothesis in the 1940's, and retreated into lies about always having believed in it when the first space telescope showed spiral nebulae being formed.
Acadamia has always been behind by orders of magnitude.
I wish you luck dealing with these bigoted pseudo-intellectuals.

Evan
10-19-2005, 01:46 PM
As you can well imagine the idea that Europeans may have been here first doesn't go over too well with certain segments of society in the US or Canada either. It tends to undermine the entire "First Nations" claims rather badly.

ibewgypsie
10-19-2005, 02:39 PM
So the point being made, it is allright to "take over" a continent or society or civilization without recourse or remorse.

What pray tell then friend is the difference when the Chinese roll down our streets to "take over America"? It is thier established right to rule if they are the dominant society at the time.

Of course, as a crackpot survivalist I will open the gunsafe at that time and do as my concience tells me. YOU gunless Nuts will just have to drop your drawers and bend over to take what you got coming to you. I will die with dignity at least.

I'll buy what I damn well please until then, my union hall does not support me, nor does any company in paticular, I do not draw food stamps or whatever the current welfare is called, I owe no allegiance except to who I chose.

That being Said, God bless America, may she rule as long as god allows.

Leigh
10-19-2005, 03:06 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
The solutrean hypothesis of European colonization is actually supported by some hard evidence including otherwise inexplicable DNA evidence found in some American Indian tribes. It is challenging the preconcieved notions of anthropologists that are so strongly set that to even suggest the idea that there is something to look for in the pre-clovis time frame is enought to jepardize your career.</font>

Hi Evan,

I think the Clovis Horizon concept is pretty much trashed. Only the real rabid fanatics still hold on to it like the holy grail. Odd that the oldest human civilizations in the Western Hemisphere are in South America. Those Bering Straits immigrants ran so fast they left no trace behind http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

------------------
Leigh W3NLB

dp
10-19-2005, 03:07 PM
Got a URL for those buttons?

hoffman
10-19-2005, 08:42 PM
I'm from Macon Georgia. We have knots on our heads...

JRouche
10-19-2005, 10:30 PM
You are all concerned about things such as trade, economics, money, what is, what isn't, the beginnings.....How about the ends!
Wake up and see the world around you..

Matthew 24:7
“For nation will rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, pestilences,
and earthquakes in various places."

J Tiers
10-19-2005, 10:46 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JRouche:
You are all concerned about things such as trade, economics, money, what is, what isn't, the beginnings.....How about the ends!
Wake up and see the world around you..

Matthew 24:7
“For nation will rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, pestilences,
and earthquakes in various places." </font>


Trouble is, that has been true for something like 5000 years, so far.....

wierdscience
10-19-2005, 11:08 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
JT,

In the case of the softwood lumber trade between Canada and the US there is no subsidy or unfair government support given by the Canadian governments. There is also no damage being caused to the US industry by the Canadian export of softwood lumber to the US. This is the finding repeatedly by the NAFTA panel which has a majority of US reps sitting on it. The US Commerce dept. refuses to drop the illegal duty and has stated they will not refund the billions collected either. The US is just as guilty of unfair and illegal competitive practices as any other country.

People here on this forum complain about cut rate labour and poor working conditions in China which makes it impossible for the US to compete. Look in your own back yard. US sawmills, especially in the southern US, do exactly the same thing compared to Canadian mills. They have pitiful safety standards and pay less than half or even a third of what Canadian workers get. My son-in-law sits in an airconditioned cab operating a joystick on the "Merch" for a shift listening to his MP3 player. He is responsible for the entire output of the mill for that shift and is paid accordingly.

Many US mills haven't been upgraded since the 60s or 70s and still have guys pulling boards off the green chain by hand with no hard hats or even steel toed boots getting maybe $10 per hour. We don't even have that job here at most mills and a sawdust sweeper starts at $20 per hour.

The situation between the Canada and the US is analagous to the situation between the US and China. Don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house.</font>

It was originally Canadian companies like Crown that came down here,clear cut the virgin pine and **** one everybody they dealt with,what goes around comes around.

As for mills in the south there ain't nobody walking around anywhere,it's all automated and bright shinney new.The only people who ever get dirt under the're nails anymore are the maintence people.Air conditioned cabs suck next to air conditioned control rooms on the otherside of the plant.A bunch of propaganda that is radically out of date.

Canada also dumps big time,when white wood 2x's show up down south wholesale for less than the diesil burned to transport them that's dumping plain as day.
Not meaning any ill will,but Canada's halo ain't so lilly white either.

nheng
10-19-2005, 11:20 PM
"For nation will rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, pestilences,
and earthquakes in various places."

Apocalyptic literature was intended for contemporary times, not for our current times, although it has been misused that way for centuries. These books were never intended as timetables for future events.

There will be nations fighting nations, plagues and earthquakes centuries after we are all dead and buried.

[This message has been edited by nheng (edited 10-19-2005).]

Arcane
10-19-2005, 11:47 PM
"Canada also dumps big time,when white wood 2x's show up down south wholesale for less than the diesil burned to transport them that's dumping plain as day."

Where is your documentation to prove your statement?

J Tiers
10-20-2005, 01:15 AM
Where's yours?

J Tiers
10-20-2005, 01:22 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:
So the point being made, it is allright to "take over" a continent or society or civilization without recourse or remorse.

</font>

Apparently "native americans" thought so. The people of the Pueblos apparently were exterminated by other of teh "first nations"..... possibly also disease and famine had a place...

Certainly some tribes had long-standing wars with others, and would happily have exterminated them...

Tribes were chased south by others, who took over their lands.

Same in asia, europe, africa, and it hasn't changed yet.... except there isn't anyplace to escape to.

One tribe in the east I am told had a 100 plus year peace..... apparently they had more sense than their brothers out west....

Evan
10-20-2005, 02:19 AM
"Canada also dumps big time,when white wood 2x's show up down south wholesale for less than the diesil burned to transport them that's dumping plain as day."

The only evidence of dumping the US Commerce Dept. could find to justify a charge of dumping was a donation of less than a skid of lumber by a BC mill to a charity in Seattle. That was the entire justification for the dumping charge for the latest round of tarrifs. Canadian lumber is sold at the daily going market rate. It isn't possible to dump.

What you are seeing is raw logs being sold across the border by mills here in Canada that are US owned. These are sold from the Canadian arm of the company to the US arm at well below market value. Yeah, it's Canadian wood but it's the US companies dumping on themselves.

Funny thing about the current tariff structure, it isn't even. Each company is assessed a different tariff rate. Guess who gets the lowest rate and who gets the highest rates? The max tarrifs are only applied to the wholly Canadian owned companies.

On top of that, the duties are paid not to the US gov but to the US companies themselves. That means the US companies doing business here are paying the duty to themselves while the Canadian companies are being sucked dry. A lot have gone out of business. This is against the international agreements the US has signed. It called the Byrd Amendment. In the long run this will cost the US more than it makes. In the short run it is destroying trade relationships.



[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-20-2005).]

Evan
10-20-2005, 02:29 AM
As for wages I found this:

"Last Updated: Oct. 9, 2005
Antigo - In northern Wisconsin cities and towns where high unemployment and low wages have been part of the economic landscape, some people covet jobs in the forest products industry.

Kretz Lumber Co., for example, is one of the largest employers in Langlade County, which in 2003 had a 9% jobless rate and an average annual wage of $23,776, according to the state Department of Workforce Development."

"The average annual wage at the sawmill is about $30,000, according to Brown..."

That wage is about half of what workers make here.


[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-20-2005).]

wierdscience
10-20-2005, 09:25 AM
When Canadian lumber,produced and sold by Canadian companies is sold for less than the transport cost it is an example of dumping and it happens all the time.The only saving grace is that lumber use is dropping in modern home to the point that only the higher fiber strength timbers like SYP are being used in structural applications.ICF and metal studs are taking over everywhere else.
No one on any board anywhere can control anything as large as trade between the US and any other contry except maybe someplace small like Cuba,even that is impossible.

As to wages,you can find one example,but that does not cover the entire industry.There also exists peaks and lows in any employment.In a small peckerwood mill wages will be low,but not in a modern flagship plant such as GP's new engineered products plant near here(largest in the world BTW)
Which also brings up another point,in terms of raw lumber anyone can produce volumes of low value product,Indonesia does it everyday.It's value added products that require technology and demand the higher prices in the market.

Oh get ready for the next trend in home construction to hit,no low fiber strength wood allowed for structural members period.
The new Southern Building Code is expected to rule it out.

Evan
10-20-2005, 11:22 AM
Weird,

I have spent a lot of time over the years in the sales offices of some of the biggest sawmills listening to the sales reps make deals with customers. They are looking at their terminals at the commodity market ticker as they quote prices. Lumber is sold FOB at market price at the nearest rail siding. The receiver is responsible for shipping cost. If anyone is dumping below price of shipping it's happening at your end, not ours.

Also, the reason that NAFTA has repeatedly ruled against the US in this case is because of the way the DOC calculates dumping margins. They use a practice called "zeroing". This means that they take into account only products from a country that sre sold below local market prices but ignore similar products that are sold above local market prices. They use only positive dumping margins but set to zero any negative margins found. This is cherry picking to produce the desired result in the calculations.

J Tiers
10-20-2005, 01:06 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:
The only saving grace is that lumber use is dropping in modern home to the point that only the higher fiber strength timbers like SYP are being used in structural applications.ICF and metal studs are taking over everywhere else.
</font>


Say what?

I see the "woodwasters" going up all around.... tear down a house and put up one twice as big, with a 4 car garage.... "New houses...from the 950's"

And they are ALL WOOD. NO metal studs anywhere.

All wood and a LOT of wood. More wood than that.... There is a reason we call them "woodwasters".

I ONLY see metal studs in some office construction. Not all, just some. Mostly in renovations. New constructions often use wood.

I do see the manufactured joists. The ones with the particleboard / chipboard center and a thin strip of actual wood on top and bottom. They are supposed to be more rigid, and probably are. But I wonder about longevity.

My house is 70 years old, and the solid wood is in good shape.

Houses from the 1700s are still standing.

A few from the 12th century are still standing in europe. Ones that weren't bombed or burned in all the wars.

Some ply and particle/chip type materials give up in 10 or 20 years, depending on environment. Many just explode into shreds if they get wet (think flood?).

Will those manufactured joists be good in 70 years? or 50 years? or even 25 years?

Or will the houses have to be condemned by then due to deterioration of the structure...?

Likely nobody really knows...

[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 10-20-2005).]

Ausserdog
10-20-2005, 04:10 PM
JTiers,

When we built my 2 story garage over a dozen years ago, we used the GNI's you mentioned. They do look something like wood I-beams. The center web is a chip board material and the caps top and bottom are "micro-lam" instead of solid wood. When we were done I left a 10 foot section out in the weather for a year. There was NO deterioration from the Chicago weather that I could see. FWIW they have a waxish/plastic type finish that repels water pretty well. As for longevity - who knows? I have no doubt it will easily outlast me though.

You're right about them being strong - and incredibly light. 18 inch high sections by 25 feet long weigh 75 pounds. That was for a 24 foot clear span with no central support of any kind to meet "light storage" loading. That worked out as 135#/sq ft live load & 15 #/sq ft dead load vs 40 & 15 for standard residential. I'd use them again in a heartbeat!

------------------
Tom

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it!

[This message has been edited by Ausserdog (edited 10-20-2005).]

bobbybeef
10-20-2005, 07:58 PM
Hey Speedy,
Understand the Chinese are taking New Zealand to the world court to get their Chinese Goosberry back. You were marketing it under some wierd name called KIWI Fruit!
Have you patented a kiwi fruit lathe for skinning the brutes? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Finally got a government in operation. That proportional representation sucks. We got it here in a few states. Never gets a workable result.Gives the fringe lunatics a voice when they should all be locked up. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif
This Chinese angst is nonsense. The 'nuke em now' crowd are mostly off their trolleys. South Bends were made here until the Japanese could do it cheaper.Think of Remington classic under over shottys.Made in Japan. Soon to be made in guess where.
Thank the Chinese for the gear at cheap prices. Get it now; it soon will not be available at give away prices.
Sure they are trying to be a super power.Isnt everybody?
Super cricket teams and super football teams are the way to go.Did I hear that the US rugby team is comming along nicely. They play cricket in a few enlightened places.There is hope for the world then.
Regards, http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//confused.gif Never.
bobby.

wierdscience
10-20-2005, 10:21 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J Tiers:

Say what?

I see the "woodwasters" going up all around.... tear down a house and put up one twice as big, with a 4 car garage.... "New houses...from the 950's"

And they are ALL WOOD. NO metal studs anywhere.

All wood and a LOT of wood. More wood than that.... There is a reason we call them "woodwasters".


[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 10-20-2005).]</font>

Notice I said SYP(southern yellow pine,not balsa)is being spec'd for structure.There are a lot of houses here that after the storm looked good,but on further inspection had splintered rafters caused by wind loading.The material in question was 2x8 and 2x6 white wood rafters.Not a single SYP rafter or joist failed unless a large tree made up with it and most times the damage was repairable.There are also significant issues with fastner pullout.

As for metal studs in the bulk of the home building uses they are used in interior walls
,they yield a dead flat,strong wall that's about 20% cheaper than wood and a dream to blueboard and plaster.
The big improvement are the poured concrete walls,they never root,they don't blow flat and fire is pretty much ruled out.

A few people are building the big wood wasters in the Hometime/TOH tradition,but most of those folks don't know s--- about building anything,they have lots of money(well credit)and they hire a pencil fairy to draw up something pretty.

speedy
10-20-2005, 11:47 PM
Bobby,
the only Kiwi Fruit that is of any concern to me at present are the Kiwi faggot fruits that are running our country into the ground at present. What a dogs breakfast!!
I think that this China B/S is born out of frustration,feeling powerless and frustration at the bastards who would sell out their countrymen for a dollar. Free trade is a nightmare for most. I don`t have any answers, only fears for my Kiwi way of life and future of my children.
Everyone knows that the Southbend is a copy of the Hercus insomuch as Split Enz and Crowded House are Australian bands http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Go the Kiwis!! It should be a great battle tonight http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

cop u later,
Ken



[This message has been edited by speedy (edited 10-20-2005).]