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3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 02:51 PM
I used my HF shop crain for the first time today and I'm thrilled with it. I test-fitted the engine to the frame and will start building the engine mount and finish up the rear end soon:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/engine1.jpg

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/engine2.jpg

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/worrywarts.jpg

-Adrian

[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 11-05-2005).]

hoffman
11-05-2005, 02:54 PM
Nice work! Wher'd you get the metal http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Your Old Dog
11-05-2005, 03:09 PM
Looking good! You may not need the 5 foot flames out the back to turn some heads!

Tinkerer
11-05-2005, 03:13 PM
Looks good.

hoffman... looks like black threaded pipe.. Lowes or Home Depot I'm guessing.

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 03:20 PM
I bought 100' of SCH40 1" ID, .190" wall structual pipe from Home Depot after it was clear that Industrial Metal Sales wasn't on the ball. The mild steel pipe TIG welds beautifully after you remove the black scale.

It's the same steel pipe I built my PsychoKart with.

-Adrian

CCWKen
11-05-2005, 03:25 PM
Hey Tink, I think Hoffman's comment has to do with other posts. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Looks good to me Adrian. But I sure hope the seat sits further from the exhaust. It could do more than expose your rear end. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 03:31 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CCWKen:
Hey Tink, I think Hoffman's comment has to do with other posts. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Looks good to me Adrian. But I sure hope the seat sits further from the exhaust. It could do more than expose your rear end. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif</font>

The seat is actually touching the Oil cooler right now. I'll relocate the Oil cooler later. The 4 exhaust ports are another inch or so below the oil cooler. If I leave the seat where it is right now, then it will be about 2" away from the exhaust header so maybe it might get a little warm. I can probably move the seat up another foot if I have to. Nothing is finalized yet as I'm just starting the mock up of everything now. I need to build an engine mount, and add a lot more structure to the rear.

-Adrian

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 03:40 PM
Here is a picture from the rear:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/engine4.jpg

I still need to build the upper frame members. Right now there is no strength without the upper frame members. The upper frame members will tie everything in and also bolt right up to the top of the two differential flange bearings. My rear suspension is going to pivot from the Upper/Lower frame members that are attached to the flange bearings. It should look really cool when I get a rolling chasis.

-Adrian

Willy
11-05-2005, 04:01 PM
Adrian, nice work as usual,one question I have and I'm sure you've thought about it too is,do you think the airflow will be sufficient for proper cooling?
Another thing I noticed that has me concerned about your safety is that 100lb propane tank in your shop.There is a very real possibilty of the tank venting off excess pressure if brought in cold and full into a warm shop.I'm sure your house insurance would be void if there was a fire or explosion,that is of course if your still around to file a claim.Please stay safe,I enjoy your posts and want see the project to completion.

darryl
11-05-2005, 04:21 PM
I've had the experience of a 1 lb tank of propane venting, and it was quite exciting but not in a generally good way. I'm lucky that I wasn't fooling with fire at the time, and it was outside. A lot of gas was released, and the tank froze. I doubt the vent valve closed either, since gas continued to vent for some time, though much slower.
All it would take is for low-lying propane to reach a gas water heater or other pilot flame. Kaboom! You'd be lucky to HAVE a rear end.

Other than that, good luck with your project.

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 04:27 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Willy:
Adrian, nice work as usual,one question I have and I'm sure you've thought about it too is,do you think the airflow will be sufficient for proper cooling?
Another thing I noticed that has me concerned about your safety is that 100lb propane tank in your shop.There is a very real possibilty of the tank venting off excess pressure if brought in cold and full into a warm shop.I'm sure your house insurance would be void if there was a fire or explosion,that is of course if your still around to file a claim.Please stay safe,I enjoy your posts and want see the project to completion.</font>

I think the air flow probably won't be sufficient but I'm not going to worry about it too much right now. I'm not really building this buggy to go out and ride around in for long periods of time. If I have to stop riding after 5 minutes to let it cool off, that's ok for now. If I end up wanting to spend more time playing with it, I'll probably go with a much stronger water cooled fuel injected engine anyway. The engine I'm using right now is an '83 GSX 750cc with around 80hp. The engine I really want to use is a '04 GSXR 1000cc (180 hp) which is a lot lighter, is water cooled, fuel injected, computer controlled, etc.

The propane bottle valve is never opened unless I'm actually heating my shop. It's ok if it vents some propane to adjust for pressure. The only concern I have with my propane bottle is a rupture. Hopefully my Oxy/Acty rig that is right next to the propane bottle doesn't blow up and rupture the propane.

-Adrian

Willy
11-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Adrian,the valve doesn't have to be open for it to release excess presure,also if you brought the tank in cold and full and then turned on the heat there is a very real possibilty that the propane would expand enough to vent out of the safty valve.Not a pretty picture if you happen to be welding or grinding.It's also illegal in most jurisdictions for those very reasons.

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 05:42 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Willy:
Adrian,the valve doesn't have to be open for it to release excess presure,also if you brought the tank in cold and full and then turned on the heat there is a very real possibilty that the propane would expand enough to vent out of the safty valve.Not a pretty picture if you happen to be welding or grinding.It's also illegal in most jurisdictions for those very reasons.</font>

If I hold an open flame 3 feet away from my propane bottle and the over-fill pressure release valve opens, I expect nothing to happen. On TV, there would definitely be a big explosion, but not in my shop http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian

Joel
11-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Propane is heavier than air (unlike natural gas) and will remain at a low level in an enclosed space. That is until it sees a spark...

Wirecutter
11-05-2005, 07:27 PM
Adrian -
Ditto here: nice, nice work, and of course, stay safe.

I've got to say, though - is that the seat you'll be using? I'm going to guess that cloth upholstry isn't going to fare so well in the dirt and mud. It appears to be pretty fancy otherwise, but I'm going to guess that the psycho-buggy type application is one where vinyl seats are still appropriate.

So, when do you think you'll start doing wheelies? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-M

Wirecutter
11-05-2005, 07:28 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:
If I hold an open flame 3 feet away from my propane bottle and the over-fill pressure release valve opens, I expect nothing to happen. On TV, there would definitely be a big explosion, but not in my shop http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian

</font>

Better not do any more video in your shop, then. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

merf23
11-05-2005, 07:45 PM
A snowmobile engine/cvt set up would be the hot ticket!

Evan
11-05-2005, 08:51 PM
Virtually all jurisdictions prohibit the storage indoors of gas cylinders containing heavier than air flammable gasses. This includes propane in amounts exceeding one pound. Pressurized cylinders containing lighter than air gasses such as aceytelene may be stored indoors as such gasses will not pool on the floor but mix with the air instead. An average acytelene cylinder does not contain enough gas to produce a flammable mixture when combined with the volume of air in a typical garage. A pool of propane on the floor has an interface area with the air that is always at the correct mixture to ignite.

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-05-2005, 08:52 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wirecutter:
Adrian -
Ditto here: nice, nice work, and of course, stay safe.

I've got to say, though - is that the seat you'll be using? I'm going to guess that cloth upholstry isn't going to fare so well in the dirt and mud. It appears to be pretty fancy otherwise, but I'm going to guess that the psycho-buggy type application is one where vinyl seats are still appropriate.

So, when do you think you'll start doing wheelies? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-M</font>


IIRC, that seat came from a Geo Storm for $25. It's completely disposable http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif I went to visit a local junk yard this summer for the first time and decided to grab a seat while I was there.

That seat may or may not be the seat I use, but I need a seat in the picture before I make important decisions like mounting the foot pedals, mounting the steering column, mounting the engine, etc.

I would like to ride some wheelies, but I'm afraid I'll have a much harder time http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif I'll certainly build a nice roll bar so I can practice riding on two wheels (the left front and the left rear http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian

JPR
11-09-2005, 11:02 PM
Adrian, where are you placing the rear brakes, inboard or out board?

jburstein
11-09-2005, 11:19 PM
for cooling you could relocate the radiator. Putting it above the seat might work, or you could make side pods, and put it out there, but given your use, it'd probably get bashed off.

-Justin

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-10-2005, 02:19 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JPR:
Adrian, where are you placing the rear brakes, inboard or out board?</font>


I'm using VW Type 1 IRS stub axles (Porsche 944 stub axles) and a custom made bearing carrier (I'm cutting up a pair of VW Type 1 IRS trailing arms and making my own multi-link suspension using the bearing carrier). This will allow me to use a $199 VW type 1 disc brake conversion kit that provides two VW type 1 wheel hubs/rotors, two brake calipers/pads, and caliper brackets that bolt up to my VW type 1 IRS bearing carrier:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/brakes.jpg

-Adrian

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-10-2005, 02:25 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jburstein:
for cooling you could relocate the radiator. Putting it above the seat might work, or you could make side pods, and put it out there, but given your use, it'd probably get bashed off.

-Justin</font>

I wish I had a radiator. This engine is air cooled so it relys on air flowing through the cylinder heads/fins for cooling. If I had a radiator I could locate it anywhere and use a 12v fan to move air through it.

For now, I'm just going to drive it without any additional cooling and see how it goes.

-Adrian

topct
11-10-2005, 04:23 PM
That's one of those oil cooled Suzukis. They curculated a lot of oil through the head and that oil cooler to cool it. Notice the differance in the fins or lack of them, between this motor and your older one.

One setup I've seen used two auto transmision oil coolers, in a similar situation, where air was resticted from flowing through the cooler. They were mounted on each side of the vehicle, out in the wind.

I would seriously consider mounting a oil temp gauge. It would be a good indicator of engine temp. With that seat in the way you are blocking some neccasary air.



------------------
Gene

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-10-2005, 05:13 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by topct:
That's one of those oil cooled Suzukis. They curculated a lot of oil through the head and that oil cooler to cool it. Notice the differance in the fins or lack of them, between this motor and your older one.

One setup I've seen used two auto transmision oil coolers, in a similar situation, where air was resticted from flowing through the cooler. They were mounted on each side of the vehicle, out in the wind.

I would seriously consider mounting a oil temp gauge. It would be a good indicator of engine temp. With that seat in the way you are blocking some neccasary air.

</font>

My '79 older GS750cc engine is basically the same as my '83 GSX750cc engine except the '83 is a 16-valve engine.

I mounted the oil cooler on my PsychoKart (1979 GS750CC) in front of the engine here:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/oil_cooler.jpg

http://www.psychokart.com/photos/photo5.jpg

The oil cooler doesn't help that much since only 10-30% of the oil flows through it.

-Adrian



[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 11-10-2005).]

topct
11-10-2005, 06:55 PM
Yes they are basically the same, except for the fact that Suzuki did some major oil curculating changes. In that they greatly increased the oil flow to the head. Using that oil as an additional coolant with the air.

The Suzuki engineers knew that the hotter they could run the head, and at more consistant temperature, they would increase the thermal efficiancy.

This was an intermediate solution to keep from going water cooled.

So they used oil instead of water.

It works very well. I can't think of any of these engines that failed because of overheating. But they were in a bike.

You are blocking that function off. You are also blocking any other air that would flow around the engine (itself an oil cooler).

However you might really not need to do anything other than relocate that oil cooler to the back and out into some air.

This has all been just my $.02 I have never built anything like what you are doing.











------------------
Gene

rsr911
11-10-2005, 11:07 PM
Being a Porsche 911 owner I certainly agree with Gene's comments. 911's orignally were only 2.0L with engine mounted oil coolers but as sizes grew to 2.2, 2.4, 2.7, 3.0 heat became an issue. By the time the 3.0's were out the cars had fender mounted oil coolers, then came the 3.2 and finally the 3.6 these engines rely heavily on oil cooling to keep temps under control. The actually have an oil thermostat like a watercooled engine has for water. Being dry sump engines all of the oil flows through the cooler when the T-stat is open and nearly all track or street/track 911's have large coolers mounted in the front behind a grille. The point here is that you can get a lot of cooling benefit by cooling the oil, I've seen 911 3.3L turbos pushing past 700hp reliably cooled with large oil coolers. Porsche Engineering, a subdivision of Porsche has done a lot of work with other companies in the area of engine design, in fact the new Harley engines were a joint effort between Harley and Porsche Engineering.

I installed oil and trans coolers on my Ranger this past summer and noticed dramtically lower engine temps when hauling my car trailer and these weren't even big coolers. 250F is considered max safe oil temp by many people I've talked to.

------------------
-Christian D. Sokolowski

jburstein
11-11-2005, 09:54 AM
oh...right. No radiator. I just assumed that you didn't have it hooked up in that picture. Silly me.

I just have to say Adrian...you're completely out of your mind. Awesome, but none-the-less, insane.

-Justin

Mcruff
11-11-2005, 09:10 PM
1984 was the 1st year of the oil cooled GSX motors not 1983. Just check the year of the engine to make sure. The oil cooled motors were black with gold cam covers. The earlier GSX motors were left bare aluminum in color.

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-11-2005, 09:39 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mcruff:
1984 was the 1st year of the oil cooled GSX motors not 1983. Just check the year of the engine to make sure. The oil cooled motors were black with gold cam covers. The earlier GSX motors were left bare aluminum in color.</font>

Mine is an '83 GSX750CC and it's air cooled. The oil cooler is not necessary but it probably does help.

-Adrian

topct
11-12-2005, 08:45 AM
Mcruff is right, my mistake.

However, they way you have that engine sitting behind the seat you are blocking off that cooling air that the engine would get in it's normal place in a bike.

And it's still the reason why that cooler should be relocated.

Another point. The exhaust headers are going to be in that pocket of of fairly dead air, further adding to the heat in that area.

Another thing I've seen on these is a couple of air scoops on both sides of the seat. They don't need to be very big to cause some air to move in that pocket, and chase the heat out. I've also seen one with a couple of small electric fans, like those used on car radiators, to move that heat out of there.

I think you have a really neat project going on there, and I'm glad you're sharing it with us.

Keep the pictures coming.



------------------
Gene

Wirecutter
11-12-2005, 12:29 PM
I still snicker and groan every time I see this topic's subject line. I'm sick, I know.

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-13-2005, 04:09 PM
I finished building an adjustable engine mount, and almost done building up the rear end frame members. I'll start building the rear suspension and drive line soon. Hopefully I'll have a rolling chasis after a few more weekends.

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/rear-end3.jpg

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/rear-end2.jpg

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/rear-end1.jpg

I bent the upper frame members with my Rosebud tonight. It was the first time I used a rosebud and it was fun http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian

3 Phase Lightbulb
11-14-2005, 12:00 AM
Yahoo, I finished the upper and lower rear end frame members tonight. Now I can start working on the rear A-arms, shocks, and drive line:

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/rear-end4.jpg

http://www.bbssystem.com/buggy/rear-end5.jpg

-Adrian