Rememberance Day - November 11

[Thrud]

The attrocities committed by man on our fellow man is an endless list - from criminals, to terrorists, to dictators, to Wars and rumours of Wars.

I pray the efforts and sacrifices of those that fought for our liberties all over the globe will never be belittled. We owe so much to those that died for our sake, and more so to the survivors who carry the scars of war still.

Requiem In Pace our departed brothers & sisters.

"Lest we forget"

[Rustybolt]

Amen

[Al Messer]

Hear! Hear!!

[hms50]

Amen.

Lets all take the time to call a Vet monday,and thank them!
hms50

[BrianH]

....I'm dying to say something about liberals, but I won't.....

[chip's]

These people have defended our freedom. What more is there to say. Thanks to all who have, so much, Thanks, Thanks, Thanks.

[Toolmaker Extrodinair]

All gave some, Some gave all. Thanks fellow VETERANS for taking time out of your life so we can enjoy the freedoms we have. From a Vietnam Veteran.

[Thrud]

BrianH:
I brought this up because November 11 is Veterans Day in Canada. I have had far too many friends, relatives, and countrymen do their part not to honour their personal sacrifice. I am not a liberal. I am right wing if anything because I know that the people that do these horrendous acts against our fellow man must be stopped. Someone has to stand up for the ones that are unable to do it for themselves or this world would be a truly brutal place. We are men, not animals.

[Locksmith]

I did eight years in the Marine Corps, though not in any war. I remember reading the following somewhere. I'm paraphrasing it, but I'll get the point across.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. What is worse is the degraded state of human being who believes nothing is worth war. Such miserable creatures as these are kept free only by the exertions of better men than themselves."
Anybody who knows the correct quote or who said it will be a hero.
Semper Fi.

[tonydacrow]

The author is John Stuart Mill; born in London on May 20, 1806. The entire quote is as follows:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Wish I'd said that!

[docsteve66]

Thank you tony!. I read that somewhere years ago, paraphased it many times, argured it. Never remembered to try to find the original when I did not need it.

Can someone tell me when we (USA at least) stopped calling giving the lives of 5,000 men for 500 yards of real estate a VICTORY to withdrawing with our tails between our legs when some rabbel kill ten or more of our troops and calling that a victory?

[Locksmith]

To Tonydacrow: You are "Da Best:! Been looking for that for years.
To Docsteve: Yeah, I can tell you when: The Carter years( and again in the Clinton "ERA")

[docsteve66]

Locksmith- Mine was serious question. We really lost something some where. I don'tknowwhen we lost it but, We let people we promised to help perish at the Bay of Pigs (I worked with cuban guerillas from Swan Island at the time), We kind of abandoned the VietNamese (I was there-in and out between in 62 and 1971), We sure encouraged the UK to cut is own throat in Malaysia, India and other places. How in the world did we let Hitler build airplanes (someof the worlds best), and build huge submarine yards and service facilities Pay the price for not looking andthen let Russia move into Cuba?
Carter and Clinton did their parts but the problems started long before.

Semper Fi Nov 10- You want thereal stroy on why Germany accetped armistice Nov 11? Nov 10 was Marines Corps birth day. Huns saw how the boys acted having just fun. Realized the war was going to worse fighting a bunch of hung over "devil Dogs" so Kaiser Bill threw in the towel- true story not well known to the Non- Marine Corps types, denied by others. But any good Gypsy medium will contact the Kaiser and confirm.
Steve
And I also wonder why we (USA) did so much for our former enemies and neglected our allies. I logical man would say (papers treaties disregarded) that We (China, France,UK, USA (alphabeticaly listed) lost the war and gained nothing.

[Thrud]

Steve
I noticed how you managed to leave Canada out of your list. (sniff, sniff always a bridesmaid, never a bride!) http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

It was Canadian soldiers that came to Vimy and ended the two year stalemate of the Hun vs the US/UK in two weeks. We came, we drank beer, we cleaned house. (The reason you call us crazy canucks) The Brits gave us all the dirty jobs. The German's obviously mistook rowdy Canadians for our mild mannered brothers to the south! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

But that has always been Canada's lot - Dieppe had the worst fighting during the invasion. The Calgary Armoured had the hell shelled out of them. The sea was the color of blood and the infantrymen had to push pieces of their friends aside as they pressed on to the beach. My dad never forgot that, nor the Auswitz death camp they liberated. He could not tell the men from the women - stick figures.

At the end of the war, Dad sold the 5 sniper rifles he had taken from the snipers he killed and sold them to an unnamed American for $110. He used the money for a party for his surviving comrades. He never touched a gun after that.

[jr45acp]

All free nations who have been aligned during times of war or "conflict or police action" (whatevfer that menas) should get on their knees and thank their god for those who have served and especially for those that died. I'm a one hitch vet (Coast Guard, don't laugh guys) from the Nam era. Still remember my first encounter with some of Thrud's countrymen. Was told they love being referred to as 'Canucks". Got the h beat out of me by a Stoker (could it have been Thrud? He was a huge man)! God Bless all!

[docsteve66]

All the time I was in VietNAm , I never met a Canadian that I know of, but i prefered to "go to the woods " with the austrailians to all others, that includes "specail forces and Marine corps. They were a little older, wiser and knew how to go and get back. And the beer was almost a good as Beer LaRue made in VietNam. Wild boys but good. They worked out of Vung Tau in 1962. FIGHT A BUZZ SAW IF SOME WOULD JUST FLIP THE SWITCH FOR THEM ! HaveI mentioned their beer ? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

[Thrud]

Steve
Seven Canadians soldiers died in Nam under fire. Canadians carried C1A1 & C2A1 FN-FAL's (7.62mm NATO) like the Aussies. The Aussies are more restrained in the heat than us snow badgers!

[jfsmith]

My life has been strange, I lived in Indochina as a child, I fought for the Republic of Vietnam, I visted Hanoi in 1994 as a part of the friendship tour. I have served in the U.S. Army and the Canadian Forces.
Please remember all of those who have served, they are not the ones who declared the wars.

Jerry

[Locksmith]

Happy 227th Birthday to my fellow Marines!
Semper Fidelis, Teufelhunde.

[docsteve66]

jfsmith: Mind telling us more? and some dates would get things sorted out. The VietNAmese who fought for Viet govt could have been from what- maybe 1940 to mid 1970's. A very intersting country with long history of war.
Steve

[kengel]

Only did 4 years, no combat, 85-89. Served in the US Army EOD. As custom for me I will be raising a glass of single malt and spending time remembering those that went before. Also thinking of those currently serving and those yet to serve.

Thanks to all who have served in times of conflict and peace.

Kirk

[crypto]

Dave,

Thanks for the reminder.

hms50,

Thanks to you too. Tomorrow I shall call 6 ailing members of my old outfit who have asked for calls from old comrades.

Oscar

[jfsmith]

My father was diploma, I was born in Germany, lived all over the world.
In 1957 we went to Indochina as a part of SEATO. Our home was along the Silk river a bit out side of Saigon.
As that my mother is from a small town called Croton, in Ohio, my father retired to live in Ohio, he said he didn't want to live in the cold of the north anymore. I graduated from high school in the late 60's, and had a draft number of 48 in a year that they took everyone up to 50 in my area.
I served two tours in Vietnam with the U.S. Army. The house that my parents had in the 1950s had been burned, bombed, in to nothingness before my second tour in 1971. I left Vietnam, March 7, 1973. I went on to serve for 4 more years in the U.S. Army. I did the college correspondence thing and community college courses. I left the Army, in 1978, finished my degree in 1980. Went to grad school in Calgary, where I joined the Canadian Forces as a reserve officer. There were some finacial benefits for my reserve service. I finished my doctorate 1987. I was offered position at many places in the world, but family and money were key factors. I came back to Ohio to teach at university, while there I was asked by some friends in 1993 if I would like to go to Vietnam on a "good will" tour in 1994, because I am a Canadian citizen and that would make some things easier for me to travel there. So we went to Hanoi, it was really a nice place, the people were friendly, that had many American things, like Pepsi, but the not the corruption from the war years. We visited possible grave sites for downed flyers, visited hospitals for the "children of Agent Orange".
Then we went down to Ho Chi Min City and visited people there and this was a refreshing sight compared to the city of Saigon that I had left in 1973. The people were friendly, nobody was blackmarketing stuff. The food was good, the people were rather nice to be around and were not trying to rip us off. I plan on another return trip in 2005, if money permits, this time I will be a tourist.

Jerry

[BrianH]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I am not a liberal. I am right wing if anything because I know that the people that do these horrendous acts against our fellow man must be stopped.</font>

I know you're not....and I agree.
I was thinking about all the people who fail to appreciate the fact that defending ones country and fellow man IS a sacrifice....the ones who get too rapped up in some make-believe political agenda, suspecting that anyone who IS willing to go to war to fight for what is RIGHT is either blood-thirsty or merely interested in some personal gain, politally, personally, or otherwise. (It's not always about OIL, sometimes it's about what is RIGHT.....)

[Thrud]

I also wanted to remind everyone that Winston Churchill, despite ruling with an iron hand with his own people, still had a good sense of humour through the hell of WW2:
The Normandy Invasion condoms were used to protect the guns from salt water and sand getting in the barrels - Churchill would only permit this if the largest condoms made in the UK were used and marked "small". Just in case the Germans recovered them...

A moment of silence for our fallen comrades in all past and current conflicts...

[Al Messer]

Well, Thrud, and all the rest, the Day is here. Having 2 sons wearing the uniform of the US Army, and having had 5 uncles in WWII, several cousins in Korea and 'Nam, it may mean a bit more to me than to others.

The only thing it takes for evil men to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[StephenK]

My sincere thanks to all of you who have remembered. I come from a family who all served their country. My Father during WWI, my two older Brothers during WWII, my oldest Brother also during the Korean conflict,and the final two, my next oldest Brother and me during the Korean conflict. I was the lucky one since I didn't see action. When my training was over I shipped out to Panama. Again, on this day and every day I thank all of you out there.

Stephen K.

[edgarharriman]

thrud

Having worked and "played" with Canuck submarine sailors, I can well believe that 'drinking beer and cleaning house' would be a Canadian Forces tradition.

tonydacrow

Thanks for the quote. Having 'been there and done that' in Viet Nam I have seen the ugliness of war and struggle with a family member who believes that nothing is worth fighting over. I liked Viet Nam more than being around her!

[docsteve66]

Thrud: You speak of Winson ruling with an itron hand. I own 10 volumes or moreof his writings, Iremember somewerewritten in 1939, most finished much later. He has written THE best recounting of the Americain civil war that I have read. Honest and unbiased recounting of how it started, WHY it started and the years after the war. His version should be required reading in American shools. I am well aware that many do not likehim at all to understate some feelings, but he did what he thoght had to be done I suppose. Personally, I like the old gent.
Steve

[1erful]

On November 10, 1956 I attended my first Marine Corps Birthday Ball at the New Washington Hotel in Seattle, Washington. Senator Henry M. Jackson RIP gave his speech wherein he he likened the Soviet Union to a thief in a hotel who goes from room to room and tries the doorknob. When he finds one unlocked he goes in to see what he can steal. If I remember correctly he said to us "It is your job to see that he doesn't get out alive". WALT WARREN

[Thrud]

Steve
Yes, I agree with you. Winston Churchill was indeed a great man. A man of letters. A wise man. A wiseass. A bastard (so say some) that did what he had to even when he did not want to, and never gave up - not even for a moment.

He also was the one that said we should just keep on rolling right on through to Stalingrad as he knew Stalin (Saddam's father?) was a real PITA that could never be trusted. He was right on that too.

[lynnl]

Steve, you wouldn't happen to recall the title of Churchill's account of the "War for Southern Independence" (aka Civil War) would you? I'd like to read that. ... It's always been apparent to me that a disinterested third party is more prone to render a more accurate, factual accounting. Especially where the civil war is concerned: after all, along with the other spoils of war comes the latitude to define (here read "Spin"),rightly or wrongly to succeeding generations, just what the issues and motives were, even those of the opposition. ...never let factual accuracy stand in the way of objectives!

[docsteve66]

Lynn: The name my Grandfather usedfor the war was the "The war of Northern Aggression".

Great Grandfater, Mothers side, enlisted early, stayed until just month or so before the end, lost arm at Petersburg. Was in many of the battles (per his offical records) including Gettysburg. Entered as a private, furloughed as a private. He was seldom mentioned when I was a child, because mainly he was on the losing side I guess. Became a Justice ofthe Peace before he died. Must have been quite a man , as they all were on both sides. Dads family split andhad men on both sides. The war was seldom mentioned anywhere as I grew up. The bitterness in the south was (as Churchhill says, due to reconstruction errors. Thewords scalwag and carpet bagger were real cuss words to my grandmother and to a lsser extent my mother and aunts. Women seem to carry grudges longer than men- all over the world.

Anyway to answer your query: Churchhill worte a four volume set, "a history of the english speaking people" ,Vol four is entitled "The great democracies". The USA and English histroies were so interwovern, long after the war of 1776, that BOTH countries were mutualy influenced. Pages 115 to 203, discuss the war. Like EVERY historian, Churchill devotes way to much time to the differnt battles, Pages 233 thru 245 discuss "reconstruction". I give you this detail so that if you find the book some where you can locate some material quickly. The books are not well indexed. My copies are paper back,(I usedto carry a paper back book every where, just to pass the time. Was once warned (Korea, 1950) that I would bebetter advisedto carry and read the bible. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif. I had ben there done that though.

See if you can find the books some where but, if you can't,I will loan you them for six months or less. Email me an address and reminder that I offered and they will be on the way quickly.

Another good book, biased, but biased in strange way, and whose title and author I have forgettening http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif. Its a thick book, written shortly after the war (maybe 10 years, by the editor (Ed from now on) of the richmond newspaper (Times I think)\. The reason I say biased in a strange way is that Ed was very much opposed to Jeff Davis and had little respect for Robert E. Lee. I recollect from other books thatthe Richmond paer was a source of irritation to the Confederacy. Any way, even discounting the wisdom afforded by years of 20/20 rectal occulitis he has some very interesting insights about politicains on both sides. Seems he wanted the south to win but protested they were going to lose, because of lack of prepartation, inability to sustain the manufactoring needed and just poor stratic decisions. The book is worth a search, I loaned my copy out years ago and it hasn't found its way home yet.

I must be educated man far as history goes becasue I can usualy argue either side of the subject if it concerns events that I have taken an interst in. And that includes arcane things like "Cold Fusion".

Damn sure can't spell though.
Steve

[lynnl]

Steve,
Thanks for the offer. I'll check out my local library, which seems to have a pretty extensive collection of historical writings. I also have access to the Redstone Arsenal library, which can obtain on a loan for me if they don't have.

One related book I read last year, "The South was Right" offered some real eye opening arguments. It supports the notion of "War of Northern Aggression". Don't recall the authors, but it was published by Pelican Press in Baton Rouge (maybe affiliated w/LSU, don't recall for sure). While the source of publication may suggest some bias, nevertheless the arguments presented were consistently backed with unrefutable facts and what struck me as 'bulletproof' logic. I highly recommend that to anyone interested in such.