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QSIMDO
12-01-2005, 08:26 PM
I posted this elsewhere so I apologize for repeating myself but it may have gotten buried so I'll do a stand alone;

anyone familiar with this miller?
http://www.lathemaster.com/SIEG%20X3%20MILLING%20MACHINE.htm

ztarum
12-01-2005, 08:31 PM
Lots of info on this website.
http://www.tedatum.com/thms/

John Stevenson
12-02-2005, 02:52 AM
There is a lot of stuff about these on the web in various places.
I know a few guys who have these, they are called the X3 over here
Quite a few have been converted to CNC, some have had the initial gear train replaced by tooth belt drive for quietness and I have seen one direct driven from a large DC motor and variable speed control.

They seem a good machine once a few niggles have been ironed out.

Sir John.

QSIMDO
12-02-2005, 03:43 PM
I did finally get a chance to Google about the X3 and you're right. Ton of stuff.

I think I like Lathemaster's bigger machine though.

Thanks for your interest.

LG
12-02-2005, 09:40 PM
This is the latest version for sale here in Australia. It has a few extra features which I like, Spindle speed and Quill depth readout, a forward and reverse button for tapping.
The price converts to around $1500.00 US.
Could be cheaper in countries where there is a bit more competition.
http://tinypic.com/i437tz.jpg

[This message has been edited by LG (edited 12-02-2005).]

[This message has been edited by LG (edited 12-02-2005).]

BillH
12-02-2005, 09:42 PM
Probably save 200$ if you email Sieg directly and have them ship you one. If you order say 10 of them and lots of accessories, the Sieg President will probably want to come visit you. Atleast he did with my friend in Norway.

radish1us
12-03-2005, 05:54 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by QSIMDO:
I did finally get a chance to Google about the X3 and you're right. Ton of stuff.

I think I like Lathemaster's bigger machine though.

Thanks for your interest.</font>

Lathemaster's bigger machine???????
An X3 is an X3 no matter who you buy it from, they ALL come out of the one factory in China, no matter who's brand is on it.
The picture of the X3 from Lathemaster's site is a good 'un, they got a shot of an X3 with the camera down near the table height of the X3, the lens is slightly pointing upwards, giving it an appearance of a larger machine, bloody good trick photography, makes a mountain out of a mole hill.

regards radish

pgmrdan
12-03-2005, 06:30 AM
'they ALL come out of the one factory in China, no matter who's brand is on it.'

Here we go again! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

In China, even if all of a product comes out of the same factory they're not all the same machine for the different brands.

Compare the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, Micro Mark, Homier, etc. mini-lathes and mini-mills out of the Sieg plant. They're made with different bearings, motor controllers, motors, accessories, levels of finish, etc. BIG differences between the machines.

Coming out of the same factory means next to nothing. The factories will make changes to meet each customer's (Grizzly, Harbor Freight, etc.) requirements.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 12-03-2005).]

Timewarp
12-03-2005, 09:50 AM
I was looking at a site last night that had a description of an x3 cnc conversion.
http://www.rlberg.com/CNC.htm
He also has some short videos. I have also read a pdf file about the mill provided by John Stevenson?? Finally, Model Engineers Workshop has some articles on the mill.
I would like to own this mill! - Would be my first milling machine and would encourage me to learn more stuff. Does anyone know of a Canadian importer, or want to do a bulk buy? Buy Canadian EH?
Pablo

BillH
12-03-2005, 11:49 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pgmrdan:
'they ALL come out of the one factory in China, no matter who's brand is on it.'

Here we go again! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

In China, even if all of a product comes out of the same factory they're not all the same machine for the different brands.

Compare the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, Micro Mark, Homier, etc. mini-lathes and mini-mills out of the Sieg plant. They're made with different bearings, motor controllers, motors, accessories, levels of finish, etc. BIG differences between the machines.

Coming out of the same factory means next to nothing. The factories will make changes to meet each customer's (Grizzly, Harbor Freight, etc.) requirements.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 12-03-2005).]</font>

Dan, I beg to differ. I went to Tech Teachers school where I saw his two HF Mini Mills, they looked and felt just as good as any of the higher priced ones and with an R8 taper. Don't compare the floor models in HF to what you will get!!
Now I will say this about Micro Mark. My 7x14 mini lathe I put up on ebay for a local pickup only. I COULD NOT BELIEVE the interest I got from that thing! So the micro marks with all their additional useless features in the long run help out big time in the resale department.

QSIMDO
12-03-2005, 01:04 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by radish1us:
Lathemaster's bigger machine???????
An X3 is an X3 no matter who you buy it from, they ALL come out of the one factory in China, no matter who's brand is on it.
The picture of the X3 from Lathemaster's site is a good 'un, they got a shot of an X3 with the camera down near the table height of the X3, the lens is slightly pointing upwards, giving it an appearance of a larger machine, bloody good trick photography, makes a mountain out of a mole hill.

regards radish</font>

You didn't look far enough there, Quickdraw.
THIS one...
http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTYMILLINGMACHINE%207045FG.htm
'cuz they show 'em together on this page;
http://www.lathemaster.com/MILLINGPRODUCTS.htm



[This message has been edited by QSIMDO (edited 12-03-2005).]

pgmrdan
12-03-2005, 04:06 PM
BillH,

I've seen too many differences and read about too many differences between the brands.

Sorry Bill. I just don't buy it.

BillH
12-03-2005, 04:15 PM
Dan, perhaps the individual companies that import them do better jobs than others on their QC's and send back the bad ones while others sell them anyhow. With my own emails to Sieg, it seams the main things you specify are Inch or metric, 240 50hz or 120 60 hz and what style plug.

radish1us
12-03-2005, 08:55 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by QSIMDO:
You didn't look far enough there, Quickdraw.
THIS one...
http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTYMILLINGMACHINE%207045FG.htm
'cuz they show 'em together on this page;
http://www.lathemaster.com/MILLINGPRODUCTS.htm

[This message has been edited by QSIMDO (edited 12-03-2005).]</font>

Suggest that you go to an optician and have your eyes checked out as the two machines on the same page ARE NOT THE SAME MACHINES.

radish1us
12-04-2005, 01:41 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pgmrdan:
'they ALL come out of the one factory in China, no matter who's brand is on it.'

Here we go again! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

In China, even if all of a product comes out of the same factory they're not all the same machine for the different brands.

Compare the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, Micro Mark, Homier, etc. mini-lathes and mini-mills out of the Sieg plant. They're made with different bearings, motor controllers, motors, accessories, levels of finish, etc. BIG differences between the machines.

Coming out of the same factory means next to nothing. The factories will make changes to meet each customer's (Grizzly, Harbor Freight, etc.) requirements.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 12-03-2005).]</font>

If you believe that, then I think that you still believe that the tooth fairy lives down the back garden.
Show me irrefutable proof that the X3 is not the same machine, no matter who's brand is on it, or what colour it has been painted.
This machine is made by Seig industries of China and why should they go to any bother to change anything, other than the spindle so it can take either a morse # 3 or an R 8 spindle for ease of fitting tooling.
The major importers/wholesalers who bring them in, are what dictates the price of these machines, the more they buy the cheaper it is per unit, that is the only difference, the pricing.
If you read carefully, all the specs on all the different brands, do the conversions correctly from metric to imperial, or vice-versa, you will find that they are the identical machine, no matter who's brand is on them.
As for different bearings in different brands, why stock twenty different bearings when one size does the job perfectly well, much easier to hold one size than twenty of them. The same goes for the spindle, other than the internals, morse 3 or R 8, gears are the same as well. The castings are all identical, the tables are as well.
So please show me the subtle differences that are built into these mills????????
No 'here say' or 'conjecture', just proof positive that they aren't the same machines.

regards radish

John Stevenson
12-04-2005, 05:51 AM
I have just emailed the importer of the Seig X3 into the UK to comment on this thread.

I know he's well capable of doing so as he's recently has just come back from a factory trip to the Seig Factory in China .

Sir John [ Earl of Sudspumpwater ]

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 12-04-2005).]

QSIMDO
12-04-2005, 06:13 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by radish1us:
Suggest that you go to an optician and have your eyes checked out as the two machines on the same page ARE NOT THE SAME MACHINES.</font>

Never said they were.
I'm only referring to the machines -offered-by Lathemaster.
And given that, the square column machine from Industrial Hobbies looks even better.
http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/square_column_mill.htm

John Stevenson
12-04-2005, 10:25 AM
OK, just got this back from the UK importer, Arc Eurotrade, that's not bad service for a Sunday http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
*************************************

Hi John,


Reply as follows:

"At present- December 2005, all the X3's and Super X3's are made by SIEG
Industrial Group, regardless of colour, badge, tall, short column,
short/tall gas spring. They are built to a price as per the importers
requirement and relationship with the factory. Some importers may be buying
in component form too. There after, various importers may or may not make
modifications to the machine, may or may not offer additional services to
improve on the basic machine, based on their own marketing strategy.

Strategy 1: Pay the lowest, stack them high, sell them low.
Strategy 2: Pay a reasonable price, sell a reasonable quantity, and sell
them at a reasonable price, with back up service.

The customer makes the decision what they want.

Other factories may consider manufacturing this model in the future, if they
feel that they want to, or if they are able to, or allowed to, but at
present, only SIEG produces these machines.

Although I think that the origin of the mini-lathe may have been elsewhere,
in China it was originally manufactured by the SIEG group, starting
production in early 1980's, but now there are more than five factories
though out China, producing them for various importers in varying quality,
and small differences in casting, motor and control boards. For the
Mini-Mill, now there are two manufacturers."

****************************************

Sir John.

radish1us
12-05-2005, 02:30 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

"At present- December 2005, all the X3's and Super X3's are made by SIEG
Industrial Group, regardless of colour, badge, tall, short column,
short/tall gas spring. They are built to a price as per the importers
requirement and relationship with the factory. Some importers may be buying
in component form too. There after, various importers may or may not make
modifications to the machine, may or may not offer additional services to
improve on the basic machine, based on their own marketing strategy.

Strategy 1: Pay the lowest, stack them high, sell them low.
Strategy 2: Pay a reasonable price, sell a reasonable quantity, and sell
them at a reasonable price, with back up service.

The customer makes the decision what they want.

[/B]</font>


Thanks for that answer John, looks like the allmighty dollar will win out every time, eh.
Buy cheap, sell lots at cheap price, yep, I can sure hear the customers of Sieg telling them to hand scrape the ways, fit special double tapered gibs so that the mill can hold tolerances of one tenth of a thou', only fit age harden cast iron tables and special X/Y axis nuts that are adjustable, to be able take out any backlash or even special double sealed bearings.
Remember, COST is the factor here.
I have yet to see anybody advertising that there particular brand of this machine has ANY EXTRA'S added as a special sales pitch, as it has been bought, as a stock standard unit, with price being the main factor for resale.
I'll state it again, ALL Seig X 3 mills are the bloody same( read identical), irrespective of brand or colour that is on them.

OK, does not look like there is proof coming from pgmrdan, that they not identical machines, so lets have a look at what was written by pgmrdan,
"Compare the Grizzly, Harbor Freight, Micro Mark, Homier, etc. mini-lathes and mini-mills out of the Sieg plant. They're made with different bearings, motor controllers, motors, accessories, levels of finish, etc. BIG differences between the machines."
Different bearings?? maybe different manufacture of bearings, but the bearing numbers WILL BE THE SAME, remember that Sieg have been screwed by their customers for the cheapest price, so cut down the cost of bearings to make an extra dollar.
Different motor controllers???? same thing as bearings or they just happened to find a way of doing them better and cheaper.
Motors??? same thing, they managed to get some a bit cheaper that will still do the job required of them.
Accessories????? yep, don't touch them from Seig, makes the machine a bit cheaper for the sucker customer.
Level of finish???? that all depends on the bloke working on that particular machine, depends on whether he got friendly with his missus the night before, or is he on a promise tonight.
BIG DIFFERENCE between machines, I think not, when they are all made from the one same drawing, with the table length ALL the SAME, the column is a variable, short or long, still the same, no matter what colour it is, or who's brand is on it.

Shall I continue, or will pgmrdan be able to refute any, or ALL of this.

If looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

All these machines that are from the Seig factories, ALL look the same, ALL with the same measurements and ALL within a few dollars of each other, ARE ALL THE SAME IDENTICAL MACHINES, some might be a bit rougher than others, but that sure doesn't make them different machines.

I shall await a reply from pgmrdan to what has been said here.

regards radish

Schutzhund
12-05-2005, 10:03 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by QSIMDO:
Never said they were.
I'm only referring to the machines -offered-by Lathemaster.
And given that, the square column machine from Industrial Hobbies looks even better.
http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/square_column_mill.htm </font>

The bigger machine is a Rong Fu 45 clone. It is way more machine than the X3 ever will be, 800 lbs vs. 350 lbs.

That said, these are both machines that I would consider for the small home/hobby shop. Either would be the better choice over a round column mill/drill in my opinion. The RF-45 and its clones being my favorite in the benchtop class.


These machines are popular with the DIY CNC crowd because of the dovetailed column.


Heres a few links from my bookmarks:

http://www.embeddedtronics.com/x3.html

http://wttool.com/p/3006-0080

http://www.astro.premcom.com/ADM/ADM%20Products/ZAY7045M.htm

http://www.tokentoolroom.com/mill.html


This is a size comparison photo of the Sieg X3 and the Sieg X1 (MICRO-Mill) for those that are curious. The X2 (Mini mill) falls in between these two size wise:

http://www.embeddedtronics.com/image/cnc/X3/x1vsx3-large.jpg



[This message has been edited by Schutzhund (edited 12-05-2005).]

John Stevenson
12-05-2005, 10:18 AM
The X1 now comes with a larger table.
See second pic down on this page.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/en-gb/dept_156.html

With the new table it looks a nicer machine than the larger X2 and real value for money.

As a comparison, three years ago I bought a Taig mill minus drive motor for £400 UKP, this X1L would cost me £280 complete on todays pricing.
Cast iron verus aluminium tables and slides, decent MT2 taper against a weird propiatary type...........no contest.

Sir John.

BillH
12-05-2005, 11:16 AM
I have an X1 I got from HF, I thought about getting an X3 but from the spindle to table distance of the X3 is no more than the X2.
What I would really love is a rockwell knee mill or the Grizzly copy of it. Ah one day when I have my own shop again.