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dtenney
11-06-2002, 09:03 PM
Hello!

I am trying to locate more specific information about the requirements for the Machinists Journeyman's card/papers offered through the Federal Department of Labor. Do I have to go through an established sponsor? Or can I get the paperwork and find a sponsor on my own? I ask because I am starting a 2yr machine shop program at Eastern Arizona College, and the only registered apprenticed programs i can find are in Tucson, AZ or the Phoenix, AZ area. Any ideas? Is there anyway I can find this out officially? Thanks!

dtenney

Thrud
11-07-2002, 01:40 AM
dtenney:
Here in Canada you must be gainfully employed by a company with at least one ticketed journeyman in that trade to apply for the apprenticeship program. A minimum number of hours are required before the first year class. The employer normally applies for your admission.


The Tech School you attend should be able to fill you in as to your local requirements.

docsteve66
11-07-2002, 04:50 PM
dTen: Thrud has given so0me good advice. As matter of Fact: IF the school you attend doesn't havethe info you seek, better you find another school FAST!.

Dept of Labor may offer a card or paper, but I think not. I think (and I am no lawyer) that U.S.Contitution,section 9, sates: "Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: ....." is still interpeted to include issueing titles as Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Engineers, electriaincs etc as bing titles of Nobility.

For that reason, despite the desires of the above "professions" they are all liscensed by the individual states. Military Doctors may practice in Federal facilities with NO liscense at all, based only on education. This has created scandals because MDs , with revoked state certificates arehired in VA and others places.

Engineers are states liscensed and unless the states reciprocate canot practice in another state. Same with teachers. There are no ,so far as I am aware, NO Federal certifcations of any trades. Air conditioning Mechanics are uniformly (so far as I know) certified to federal standards and cannot legaly purchase freon unless certified. But the states do the aactual certifications (or lose their highway funds) to satisfy Federal desires to do things they cannot do legally. Thus no federal automobile operators permits, and I think even the truck drivers are state liscensed (despite the ICC rules that are stretched to cover most every thing).

So to be so long winded, but if your school says they can get you all the federal certificates you need they are not lying. And if you agree to pay for them you WILL pay. That applies to the agreement even if the federal gov't requires NO certificate.

And yes, I can sell you legally, the deed recorded in the court house of your choosing, a valid deed to the Brooklyn bridge, the grand canyon or the home your parents own. It will stand in any court in the land as valid- worthless deed but valid.

INVESTIGATE or run. Get educated before you lose your ass
Sincerly Steve

dtenney
11-07-2002, 05:34 PM
Steve,

Thanks for being so pessimistic. I was simply asking for certification information as bieng a Journeyman level Machinist. And since when does a Journeyman's Card ( Papers or certification - call it what you will) read into the definition of "Nobility" as defined illegal in the constitution? Read into that all you like, from my own view point - as it applies to doctors, lawyers, engineers is that certification to practice thier TRADE means compliance to state and federal standards and guidelines for quality of work and ethical practice of thier work. Nothing more.

Any other positive suggestions??

dtenney

docsteve66
11-07-2002, 08:32 PM
dtenney: Sorry, I overestimated your ability to comprehend and reason. To Be more specific:

You SAID "I am trying to locate more specific information about the requirements for the Machinists Journeyman's card/papers offered through the Federal Department of Labor." Please note YOU are saying DOL offers ...etc. They don't, You may be fixing to get screwed. Is that plain enough for you?

Then you continue " Thanks for being so pessimistic. I was simply asking for certification information as bieng a Journeyman level Machinist." What you asked then and now are not the same at all. That plain enough? But same advice applies- if your school has not told you clearly and unequivocally how you get what you are paying for then dig deeper cause if they weasel word now they damn sure will later on. I am not being pessimistic, just realistic. Now is a poor time to be explaining what you were really asking for. had you asked THAT question the reply would have differed. When and if they explain, its still YOUR job to confirm that they are telling you the full truth.

Then You say " And since when does a Journeyman's Card ( Papers or certification - call it what you will) read into the definition of "Nobility" as defined illegal in the constitution? " ? No, you call it what you will, Journeyman as you use it is a title. "titles" are not to be issued by the Feds. When? The simple answer is: since the Supreme courts decided (several times) that the feds will not allow the many professional organizations to require a national license. The Organizations circumvent the constitution making certain things a requirement for joining the organization, then getting states to reciprocate the "license". I also think you will find that the term Journeyman is not used by licensing agencies. "Certificates of Competency" are issued in many places. That simply requires in some cases, taking an test or presenting proof of competency from another licensing agency, recognized by the agency you are applying to.. Its part of states rights Vs Fed rights issue. DOL is not involved so far as I know. You are mixing apples and oranges.

Listen again: No professions or trades are licensed by FEDS. In many cases it appears the Feds do license and control things not permitted by the constitution. Dig a little deeper though, and you discover they have simply promulgated a "uniform code" or a "model code" and the states adopt the code or lose money in some other program. For example: The Feds were able to make all manufacturers install seat belts. But the states all have laws saying they must be worn, only because the feds with hold money until the states comply. The 55 mile per hour speed limit was beyond Fed control, but even Wyoming or Montana was recently forced to raise the fine for exceeding the speed limit from 5 dollars or lose money. There is no federal drivers license. The list is almost endless. States (usually board of professional regulation) license Professions and trades (barbers, contractors for example). So far as I know, and such things are finally decided by judges before being finalized. Unions and companies still control the Journeyman process. The places I am familiar with require documented YEARS of experience before you will be certified. In most cases education from approved sources can be substituted for SOME of the years required.

Then you say " Read into that all you like, from my own view point - as it applies to doctors, lawyers, engineers is that certification to practice their TRADE means compliance to state and federal standards and guidelines for quality of work and ethical practice of their work. Nothing more." . Your view point and ten cents would once have got you a cup of coffee. Your view point is not worth that now. Check things out. I think you will discover there are no federal standards to comply to, only state, county, city, union and corporation standards. I have been wrong before so let us all know where I am wrong. Please do some research and quote authority. I consulted the Florida legal code of 1984, section 449 for info regarding professional license. And the subject index. No mention of Journeyman any thing over here.

You ask "Any other positive suggestions"?? Yep get off your rear end, call Dept. of labor and get your answer. When they confirm what I say, call the state and work your way down the food chain. Contribute your findings please, cause others have discussed this all before.

Just because you don't hear what you want to hear is no reason to get in a snit. I know this is long, but why should I have to read and think just to answer your question in the manner you wish.? Some of us get tired of giving "sugar tits" and being chastised because things are not as YOU think they are.

Think: How do you teach a Hindu to cook a steak with out changing his core beliefs?
Steve

kgarver
11-07-2002, 09:26 PM
Back in the olden days, 'early 70's, the Dept of Labor funded the states to set up and operate the machinist apprentice programs. Each state did it a little differently. I did my apprenticeship from 73-76 in NE Ohio. By 1975 virturally all of the companies were shutting down their apprenticeship programs because as soon as you got your papers everyone left for a BIG company and associated big bucks. The department of labor in Ohio, where I got mine issued a wallet size card stating that you had completed their program. BTW it was a four yr. program and you had to spend a specified period of time each year running each machine, ie, lathes, drill presses, milling machines, or boring mills, and surface grinders. If the company had other machines they had to notify the state and get the OK to substitute time spent running them for some other machine. We also had to take 100 hours of "theory", ie classroom training, at the local HS after work each year. It was taught by an old Journeyman Machinist w/real world, hands on experience. We spent the third year using only the Machinist Handbook as our text. There were tests that we had to pass periodically of course! At the end of the four years if you ran the requsite number of machines long enough and passed your tests you got your card.

Today the Jr. colleges are seeing the light and offering the "theory" and in some cases the hands on part in a two yr. Associates program. Jr. colleges BTW are on the cutting edge of what is REALLY needed in training/education for the next 20 years or so. Very progressive.

FYI after Cincinnati Milicron shut down their apprenticeship program(s) in 1976 they had $10 million dollars of machines gathering dust in their training center and for a year or two you could go there for a week and get training on virturally any new machine they made at the time. My Tool & Cutter grinder class had 3 people (4 max.) and was taught by their head trouble shooter, Don Morgan. Funny man and great instructor. You got 8 hours per day of direct one-on-one instructions, a free lunch, a plant tour and a small graduation ceremony in the Executive Dinning room. All of that for the princely sum of $275.00. Now thats a deal!
Regards, Ken

Thrud
11-08-2002, 02:34 AM
Ken,, ken, ken

I remember those famous last words of my Bolean Algebra & digital electroincs prossesor when I asked when we would be doing surface mount components - his reply "Surface wha...?" Good thing the school was considered "state-of-the-art". Yeah, right. I remember being accused of making **** up as I went along when I mentioned that rare-earth Amorphous materials were being used to make 1 Farad electrolitic caps (called Gold Caps) the physical size of a quarter. Unlike these morons, I had already seen them in faxes as memory backup batteries. Yeah, "state-o'-art" my ass.

Progressive in their own minds maybe, behind the times by twenty years - you bet. But I am not bitter that I paid all that money for **** I could have read in a ten year old textbook - not me.

CompositeEngr
11-08-2002, 03:36 AM
Doc is right...
After gradiating college, I still had to sit for an 8 hour test for the state of Minnesota. Now I'm an Engineer in Training. Got a purty paper with it, too.
Still have to get the experience requirement (4 yrs) and then sit for another test (8 hours).
Doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc are all licensed by the individual states; and its a good thing too. 50 legislatures trying to keep regulations vaguely similar instead of 1 legislature with no regard for reality imposing regulations.
The Feds "suggest" some guidelines, backed by force of money, but the states are mostly responsible for the standards for a given profession.
Now, you have your national private or semi-private organizations that certify tradesmen. Like ASE for mechanics. They have different levels of certification; don't know if they still use journeyman.

[This message has been edited by CompositeEngr (edited 11-08-2002).]

chief
11-08-2002, 04:50 AM
My journeyman's papers were obtained through the department of labor by way of the Navy.
This required 10,000 hours of OTJ. 5000 hours were waived because of schools,years of service and military rank, I had a little over twenty years in when I applied.
Document your time and get your instructor/supervisor to sign your work log.
Or you can get an online offical bogus diploma. I used this method when I was trying to become the CEO of starrett. Turns out I was over qualified and under age (Starrett requires a CEO to be at least 80 years go.)

metal mite
11-08-2002, 10:57 AM
I've known a couple of "Government Certified" machinists in my time (I started in 1969").

One expert machinist I employed, trained in WW2, was an active army machinist at government, and military shops for forty five years.

When working for me couldn't machine his way out of a paper bag.

He did come with HUGE toolboxes of new in the tube endmills, drills and inspection tools.

I had to fire him cause I didn't have time to remake all his parts.

"That don't mean notting"
"What! hold a thousanth?"
" Nottin goes in there but a zerk fitting!"

Words I heard before the rejects came back.

Some were better, none worse but all could "Talk the Talk", but weren't as good at walking the walk as those from private industry.

Then there are those "welfare to work" machinists from Clintons years in the white house.

Some people claim the governments mission is to "create jobs".

Could it be true?

Time for you gov. guys to hop on!

mite

hms50
11-08-2002, 11:50 AM
Good morning gentlemen.
This is an interesting thread so I thought I'd toss in my two cents worth even though they may not be worth that much! Back in the old days, I went to school, (Wentworth Institute) to become an aircraft mechanic. We took writen tests developed by the FAA and when and if we passed them, were granted our licences. To me, the amazing thing was the content of the tests. In 1970, we were tested on re-covering fabric covered airframes, plugging bullet holes in aluminum props and engine work on radial engines. I thought that was bad until I talked to a parachute packer who told me his test mainly delt with questions about silk parachutes, illegal for years!

Good Luck All!
hms50

docsteve66
11-08-2002, 02:09 PM
hms : You remind me of some thing and you are right! Govt does issue pilots license, Air frames, engine etc. I think they are certificates of competency, which is what dtenny wants i think. So I am probably wrong in how I thought the constition is applied. Funny how the federal gov't finds the constituion too binding and stays within the law, while violating the spirit.

Mite: I had a bunch of civil servant trades men (40 trades more or less). Most were marginaly competant, some were GOOD!. But even the good ones had quirks that wouldhave ruined them in private industry. Them system ruinedthem, they were good men til they spent time under poor managenment.

And I aploigize to dtenny for being sharp. I submitted and left house. would have deleted most of what I said if I had a chance.
Steve

L Webb
11-08-2002, 05:47 PM
My pilot "certificate" states "has been found to be properly qualified to exercise the privileges of Commercial Pilot". It does not contain the word license anywhere on it. It also states "signature of holder". And believe me, the Feds can be quick to take back posession of the certificate if they think I violated any FAR's.
I believe that means I am not licensed but qualified to fly airplanes for money. Then the Feds have a whole lot of regs saying how I can't be paid or compensated for certain kinds of flying. Huh?

Les Webb

I've been lurking for awhile now. Just registered.

docsteve66
11-08-2002, 10:47 PM
Welcome webb. I wreckedmy plane in front of witnesses . An old stinson V77 (big old radial engine, constant sped prop and lots of room). made a slick landing at a grass strip at merrit island Florida with strong headwind. Windshifted 90 degrees, tracks showed I had held it straight before i threw the coals to it and lifted off. At about 125 feet, wind was on the tail and I fell out of the sky. FAA pulledtheticket until a re-ride which has never occured cause I was on my way to Cyprus via VietNAm. Said I failed to control the plane andhadelevator stall mostlikely. The FAA never finds that waether chages fast. Always the pilot fault. Wonder how they write it up when one of THEM bend the plane? Still have my French license which wasa much stiffer test.

Thrud
11-09-2002, 04:16 AM
I found just one Doctor that knew the difference between an oral and rectal thermometer during my 50 day stay at the hospital.

The Taste. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
A proctologist almost got it right!

That should be on their finals - they can't figure that out, they are too stupid to be trusted with peoples lives.

So much for relevant tests...

Ragarsed Raglan
11-14-2002, 11:02 AM
Geez..what a whacky world the New World is! I've been reading this thread and I just LOVE the references to the Constitution and how it is screwing up a simple thing like the issueing of a licence, or title's.

Reminds me how happy I am that we in merry Olde Englande manage with an unwritten constitution! (but, I'm not saying we're perfect...)

As for the way things in this part of the Old World work (or at least used to!!) I 'served' a 5 year apprenticeship within the Machine Tool industry (Alfred Herberts, Coventry), I did one day a week college release and a further 2-3 nights a week evening courses for the time of my apprenticeship. I was paid about 1/6th the average skilled rate during my first year rising to about 2/3rds rate by the end of my 'time'. On completion of my 5 years I was 'fired' at 12 noon ~ a ceremony requiring you to walk down the shop with streamers and bunting attached, and carrying your toolchest!

The tradition then required the reporting for work the next morning, where on you then became a 'journeyman'. This meant that pay was now at about 90% of skilled rate for the following year.

Being apprenticed in a City with a strong professional Guilds tradition meant that on becoming a 'tradesman' I was invited to apply for my 'Freedom of the City', an ancient title which allowed me to, among other things, trade without let or hinderance within the City, and to graze my sheep upon the common lands of the City. A beautiful illuminated scroll (19 shillings and 6 pence extra) records this honour and is displayed prominently in my hallway at home.

Unfortunately, about 20 years ago, they built 4 lane ring road over the common land of the City, highly dangerous for grazing sheep!!!!

RR

tonydacrow
11-14-2002, 11:38 AM
Well, RR...

Our government in the United States is also unconstrained by a written constitution. Don’t like the fact that the written constitution contains a prohibition preventing the federal government from infringing the right of its citizens to keep and bear arms? Pretend the words don’t say what they say. Want to engage in social engineering through constitutional mandate? Discover a federally protected “right” to kill your own children before they’re born. What? It doesn’t exist in the written constitution? Just look for a “penumbra” of intended protections which, although not written, somehow “emanate” from what is written. Want to use taxpayer money to buy more votes for your senatorial or congressional seat? Ignore constitutional restrictions on federal authority and force the individual states to impose your bribery (welfare) plan under threat of bankruptcy from withheld federal funds (which BTW, never should have been taken from the citizens of the states in the first place). I could go on for hours and fill pages.

See, we’re not so different after all! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

lynnl
11-14-2002, 12:04 PM
Tony, I think you have, as folks in these here parts used to say, 'hit the nail smack on the head'!

Ragarsed Raglan
11-14-2002, 01:06 PM
Tony,

With the unwritten constitution we can do anything, so long as there is not a law forbidding it. Unfortunately, given some 1000 years of the Government system there are laws dating back into the mists of time that everyone has forgotten about ...until you do 'it' and the Government doesn't like 'it', and 'find' the relevent legislation outlawing 'it'.

As you rightly said (or implied) there exists little constraint on a Government, whatever the constitution. The people are in the end the only constraining factor and the Government gets 5 years (UK), and 4 years (US) to do as it likes before the peoples day of reckoning.

Like a mate of mine said many years ago "...if a builders labourer can't push a wheel barrow over a plank, he gets found out in 5 minutes. If a Government can't govern , they get found out in 5 years, if the CEO of a multi-national can't CE he gets 10 years before he's found out..."

Bet you can't graze your sheep in Downtown LA though!!

RR

[This message has been edited by Ragarsed Raglan (edited 11-14-2002).]

docsteve66
11-14-2002, 11:51 PM
This thread has caused me more loss of sleep than most.

The original constitution envisioned a central govenrment with no power excepting to deal with matters concerening the federal government, defense of the states, and peaceful relations between the states. The states were to decide how to conduct their internal affairs and only voluntarily would they become alike in the laws. The better system would prevail. A "Grand Experiement". By the way, we havehad two constitutions, the present and the articles of confederation which is older than the present "constitution". Before the states would accept the present constitution, they insisted on 10 amendments- the last stateing that the states had all rights excepting those reserved to Fed Gov (which were not many). Some where along the line the bureaucrats seized power and their power is ever increasing.

I am beginning to think maybe "licensing" is at the core of the path we are on. Licensing and certification lead to abuse and incompetance with out bounds. Requiring a diploma to get a job leads to getting a diploma to get a job and then stagnating as much as possible.

Comments? STEVE

Thrud
11-15-2002, 04:13 AM
Steve
Its is called the WTC, Free trade, Big business, Bill Gates, The Roman Catholic Financial Empire, ISO certification, Koyoto Accord. Or just selling us down the river for a dollar. We are no longer men, no longer serfs, not even slaves. We are bought and sold on the open market as a commodity. We have no rights, and they do not want us to have guns, because the day will come when the rug will be yanked out from under our feet and we will not be able to give our despots their comeupance.

veeguy
11-15-2002, 02:10 PM
[) that U.S.Contitution,section 9, sates: "Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: ....." is still interpeted to include issueing titles as Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Engineers, electriaincs etc as bing titles of Nobility.

What about my FCC technician license?
Federal-Title-License, no?

Ron aka veeguy

docsteve66
11-15-2002, 04:41 PM
Thrud: People seem to love rules and laws. We just had a Florida constitutional amendment to be sure pregnant pigs get exercise. Passed by about 80% in favor. How in world can people vote for men and wind up evenly divided yet agree 8 to 2 that pigs need protection, that class rooms are better at 20 studnets per room as opposed to 21?

I think every one wants more rules to control theother guy, regardless of the subject matter. then wake up oneday and discover none of us have any rights.

VeeGuy- my first phone license did not make me a first phone it licensed me to do certain things that would not belegal for a non certified person to do. Ability means nothing in the world of certificates. Get certified and you automaticlly assume you are competant. But the real test is "can you do the job?". Not to worry, I am sure some titles have slipped through. Examples mean nothing in law- it seems to be history and prior rulings. Those who have certificates lovethe certification process. Gives them job protection, reduces competition, most important- it freezes technology so the holderdoesn't become obselete.

Thrud
11-16-2002, 03:49 AM
Steve
I too am becoming annoyed with all the BS rules. What ever happened to common sense? All my cat cares about is her two meals (per vet instructions) per day, getting petted per her schedule, sleeping, and using the litter. Life should not be more complicated than that or we have lost something in the translation. Maybe I am just getting too idealistic in my old age.

halfnut
11-16-2002, 11:58 AM
I remember working with one of the certified papered Journeyman machinists once. Had to rework most of the parts he made.

Those papers are valuable, he got paid more for a while, till he got canned because of all the scrap he made that I had to rework.

mike thomas
11-16-2002, 02:10 PM
How about a new magazine? The Home Shop Anarchist. Or maybe a new col. in HSM. Anarchy in the Shop. Is anyone else jealous of the truly stupid people? I bet they never think of this stuff. They live thier lives like Thrud's cat (no offense to the cat).
The sad thing is that if you are just fed up, that is, you do not think the gov. should be regulating how many squares you wipe with, you are commonly regarded as a radical. Mike

Thrud
11-16-2002, 06:16 PM
mike
If I am in a government building I will use the entire roll and ask for seconds and thirds from adjacent stalls. It is better that I throw it down the ****ter than they piss it out the window...

All I have to say is that I love Government auctions - I can buy last years state of the art computer network gear for 1/300 of what I pay wholesale for one. It is the only place I can afford to shop anymore! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif