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View Full Version : Collet Chuck on SB9A??



Arbo
12-15-2005, 11:05 AM
I have a job coming up that will require two quick operations on alot of parts. Most likely in the hundreds. Right now, I am using only a four jaw chuck, and I don't really want to use a three jaw for this job, even if I had one. So, here is my idea...

Mate this...
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1792

To this...
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2532

Seems to me that it should work. Does anyone have experience here? I am going to call LMS later, to see if there is any reason that it absolutely will not work. I am leaning towards the ER collets instead of 5C. I have heard that the ER have a greater range of travel in each respective size, over the 5C.

By the way, I don't have time to build my own collet chuck right now.

Thanks!

topct
12-15-2005, 01:37 PM
Look down the list here,

http://www.bealltool.com/colletchk.htm

Either one would probably work. I like LMS products. But the one from Beall looks good too.

Uh Oh, I just realized, the Beall screws directly on to the spindle. Quick and easy. BUT whose to say how true it would run. I'm thinking it would be good on a wood lathe, but since you can't index it to your spindle, I question it's accuracy.

The LMS can be trued since you will have to turn that mounting plate on your lathe.

------------------
Gene

[This message has been edited by topct (edited 12-15-2005).]

johnc
12-15-2005, 05:43 PM
I've been considering the same type set-up on my 9A. Here is another option:
http://www.shop.tallgrasstools.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=15
I did find a write-up earlier on the Beall chuck installed on a Taig lathe. The author seemed happy and reported a runout of 0.0005. I would be interested to know what you end up with and how satisfied you are with the end product.
Found the review:
http://www.cartertools.com/beall.html

[This message has been edited by johnc (edited 12-15-2005).]

JeffG
12-15-2005, 07:57 PM
There is quite a lot of variation in the register diameter and threads on SB9 lathes - so if you need the kind of accuracy that one normally expects from a collet setup, you probably have to bore the register diameter of the chuck to fit your lathe. I'd recommend you contact the manufacturer of any chuck you plan to buy and verify that the register bore is enough undersize that you can machine it to fit.

Al Messer
12-15-2005, 08:24 PM
Arbo, what is the beginning diameter of the workpiece and what is the finished diamter?

Arbo
12-15-2005, 09:36 PM
Al,

The OD is .500", and stays that way. The three ops involve in making the part are simply...center drill, drill, ream. Finished, and next part.

Al Messer
12-16-2005, 08:48 AM
I can tell you how to make a simple jig to use in the 4 jaw that won't take 30 minutes to make and for all practical purposes will be as accurate as a collet, and save you a bundle of money if you wish.

Arbo
12-16-2005, 08:57 AM
Al,

Let's hear it. If it works, and saves money, I'm all for it!

JCD
12-16-2005, 09:16 AM
You will probably loose some rigidity with this as compared to using a 5C, if you have a large spindle.
Life is a compromise.

Rustybolt
12-16-2005, 11:19 AM
I have one that accepts B&S 22 collets and can be opened and closed while running. Collets can be changed without dismounting it.

I think it was imported by Grand Tool in New Jersey.

Another nice feature is that it can be opened with the left hand while removing or replacing parts with the right hand.

Mike Burdick
12-16-2005, 01:37 PM
Arbo,

Here's just one more option to add to the mix.

Make a new backplate for your existing 3-jaw that is adjustable like the set-true chucks. I made one for my chuck and it's no big deal.

Since you are just using one size of material the set-true feature should have repeatable results.

Oops...just reread the post - you don't have a three jaw - sorry.

[This message has been edited by Mike Burdick (edited 12-16-2005).]

Al Messer
12-16-2005, 03:35 PM
Arbo,

Since your workpiece is only .500" in diameter, chuck up a short piece of 1.00" round stock in the four jaw chuck as I understand that this is the only chuck you own? This will also work in a three jaw chuck. Center it as closely as you can and drill a 3/8" hole through the center. Punch a mark on it where it maked contact with two adjacent jaws. Remove from chuck and drill and tap a 1/4" hole about 1" from one end. Re-insert in the chuck, aligning the punch marks with their respective jaws. Then drill/ream/bore the hole until your .500" stock will slide in the hole with a "Stiff puch fit". Drop a bit of Lead in the threaded hole and install a FLAT POINT set screw. You can now do your machining on the workpiece and as long as the jig is not disturbed nor removed from the chuck, the center of the workpiece with co-incide with the centers of the lathe. When you have finished drilling one piece, slack off on the set screw, pull it out and push in another.

BTW: This method will also work on Square stock and is a lot quicker than trying to use a four jaw chuck to center it.

Al Messer
12-16-2005, 07:05 PM
I forgot to add that the threaded hole is across the radius of the jig, and make sure that when you put it back in the lathe for the final drilling/reaming/boring, that you leave it far enough out from the face of the chuck that you can get at it with a hex wrench.

beckley23
12-16-2005, 09:43 PM
If this is going to be a repeating job, I would definitely be looking for a small turret lathe, like a small Hardinge, with a handlever or air operated collet chuck. Been there and still doing that.
Harry

Al Messer
12-17-2005, 08:55 AM
Harry, a lot of us amateurs have to do with what we've got and cannot afford to run out and buy a Hardinge or any other turret lathe.

moldmonkey
12-17-2005, 11:12 AM
Arbo,

Just buy a straight shank ER collet chuck and chuck it up in the 4-jaw. Cheaper and the run-out is dependent on how much time you want to spend indicating it in. You'll also be able to use it on the mill.

Let's try this link:

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=1575&PMITEM=80040983

Mr Messer-Thanks for the good tip.

Jon
[This message has been edited by moldmonkey (edited 12-17-2005).]

[This message has been edited by moldmonkey (edited 12-17-2005).]

Rustybolt
12-17-2005, 02:26 PM
Arbo. The number for Grand Tool is
201 342 690The model number of the collet chuck is NR210
They also carry the collets.

Al Messer
12-17-2005, 02:49 PM
Arbo, I am afraid that I have completely mis-read your posts.

Are you planning on using regular CRS Bolts as your raw stock? I dunno, some of the other fellows will have to comment on that point, as I have never tried machining anything already threaded in any sort of a collet.

Maybe you could make a "Internal Threaded Arbor" like some of the old timers used for repetition work.

patyoung
12-17-2005, 03:20 PM
Hello Arbo,

Isn't it true that the South Bend 9A's
headstock is a Morse Taper 3 (MT3), so
why couldn't you use a collet/chuck set
that uses a MT3 drawbar like the one
that Little Machine Shop sells:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2228

You might have to make a stopper at the
other end of the headstock if you need to
secure the drawbar, but wouldn't this
work or is the accuracy too corse to be
practical?

Anyone else want to chime in with their
opinions?

Happy holidays...

Pat Y

beckley23
12-17-2005, 04:12 PM
Al,
Reread my post again, I said if the job is a repeater
I'll stand by my post.
Harry

Arbo
12-17-2005, 04:39 PM
That would work for this particular job. However, if I wanted to run long bars through the headstock using the collet chuck in the future, your idea would prohibit that. Not to say that your's is a bad idea, I am just looking at getting the most bang for my buck.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by patyoung:
Hello Arbo,

Isn't it true that the South Bend 9A's
headstock is a Morse Taper 3 (MT3), so
why couldn't you use a collet/chuck set
that uses a MT3 drawbar like the one
that Little Machine Shop sells:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2228

You might have to make a stopper at the
other end of the headstock if you need to
secure the drawbar, but wouldn't this
work or is the accuracy too corse to be
practical?

Anyone else want to chime in with their
opinions?

Happy holidays...

Pat Y</font>

Al Messer
12-17-2005, 05:18 PM
Hi, Harry! Are we meaning the same thing by the term "repeater"? To me, it means making more than one part at a time alike with all the others. What do you mean? TIA!

beckley23
12-17-2005, 07:47 PM
What you call a repeater, I call a production run. I'm referring to more than one production run.
I got into that situation many years ago, when I was working out of my basement.Got a small production run of 100 pcs, that I ran pretty much as Arbo plans on. After about 15 pcs, I felt like I was beating my head against the wall, it ran so slowly. I quickly found a Logan bed turret, Dave Sobel IIRC, that I adapted to my Sheldon lathe. The next time that job ran, it ran 10 times faster. I did have the advantage of a 5-C handlever collet closer, which greatly helped.
I run a fair amount of production for the pipe cutter that I manufacture. I have one part that has to be done in 6 jaw chuck, I've tried an air chuck, and a 3 jaw, but M-2 in thin sections is surprisingly flexible, and the 6 jaw is the only chuck that gives it enough support so that I can maintain thickness tolerances for the subsequent surface grinding after heat treat. It is no fun working that chuck wrench 6-700 times during a production run, and it really slows the job down. The difference in run times for that particular sequence of operations is significant when compared to the air chuck.
I have a feeling that once Arbo gets 50 pcs into this job he will have a different opinion about how this job should run, starting with the part holding system. Working chuck wrenchs is time consuming compared to a handwheel collet chuck, and is no comparison to a handlever collet chuck. He will then look at the other end. He has 3 operations, personnally I would do it 2, eliminating the center drill and use a screw machine drill bit, to do on each part; that is a lot of hand cranking on the tailstock handwheel and a lot of tool changes. The suggestions I've seen are good for one or two parts, or if you are between a rock and hard place and have to get the job out, and that's just for the headstock side. Nobody, until I made my 1st post, has addressed the other end, which is more important. The tooling changes are going to be a nightmare.
I've been there and done all that, I don't care to return. I'm just passing on my hard learned lessons.
Harry

Al Messer
12-17-2005, 08:29 PM
Oh, sorry 'bout that! I mis-understood, since I am strictly an amatuer and know nothing of production methods!

Rick Kruger
12-18-2005, 03:05 AM
I'm a late entry to this, but ... here goes anyway.

Seems the best collet solution here is a 3C. With a MT3/3C adapter, it natively fits the SB9A. Even with a handwheel, it should be faster than ER 32. Quick change hand lever 3C faster yet, but expensive. 3C gives full spindle thru hole for 1/2" dia, where ER MT3 adapter doesn't. Beall ER32 does give full thru hole, but requires 2 wrenches to operate. I have a Beall ER32 screw on chuck and 3C collet systems (also have ETM ER32 MT3 arbor collet chuck system). Hands down, I'd go with the 3C for 1/2" dia. Beall ER32 chuck is 12L14, which won't hold up under lots of production use. Its also 0.001" TIR or so, 3C much less. I also have a 6-jaw adjust-true type chuck, which could be a good option, but I'd still go with the 3C collet if I had to buy something specific for this job.

Rick

beckley23
12-18-2005, 09:05 AM
Arbo,
Here is a solution to your problem with work holding, the system looks complete to me, and the Buy it Now price is fair, but you still have to address the other end.
http://cgi.ebay.com/3C-Collets-Collet-Closer-For-9-South-Bend-Lathe_W0QQitemZ7571240096QQcategoryZ25294QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Harry

JCHannum
12-18-2005, 01:56 PM
That is a very good price for the collet closing attachment. I agree it would be light years ahead of any other set up for doing the 1/2" parts. It's only limitation is the 1/2" max collet size.

An advantage to that set up is that you would easily get your money back anytime you tired of it and decided to resell.

As far as the "other end", combined drill/reamers are available in various lengths that will allow you to drill & ream in one pass. Depending on hole diameter, depth and required tolerance, it may be possible to accomplish in one shot.

Paul Alciatore
12-19-2005, 01:27 AM
The standard 1 and 3 series collets used with the SB9s are available in the 1/2" size. A new collet that size should cost only $20 to $40 depending on brand. You will need the collet adapter and a drawbar. I use mine all the time. They are often available on E-Bay.

Also, the SB has a 3MT bore and collets are available in that taper. They can be used without any adapter but you will still need a draw bar which can be shop made (tube and handwheel, thread the tube, add a thrust bearing if you like).

Either way, a standard collet for that machine would cost a lot less than the collet adapter you propose and would probably be more accurate. And take up less space.

Paul A.

aametalmaster
12-19-2005, 03:49 PM
Here is an ER40 Collet chuck i made for my SB 10K if you have time to make one...Bob
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/aametalmaster/album?.dir=fe87&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

------------------
Bob Wright
Salem, Oh Birthplace of The Silver & Deming Drill