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rsr911
12-13-2005, 10:40 PM
Machine's been running great, making parts almost every evening but tonight for some reason the spindle just jammed up. It's stuck about 1/4" below the home position. The spindle will not turn either by hand or with the spindle motor and the stepper cannot move it up or down. Yesterday I did have a crash with a 1/4" endmill driving it into the stock but no funny noises and it ran fine the rest of the night as well as early this morning and this evening.

I'm really in a bind here (no pun intended) as I need to get some parts finished that I've already sold. Any ideas?

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

JRouche
12-13-2005, 11:02 PM
I dont think the crash did the damage, I have eaten 3/8" E/M straight into the work and the machine didnt even notice.

The common part for rotation and elevation would be the splined shaft (spindle)? I would begin there.

And never discount the possibility of two separate things happening at the same time. Like, brake stuck or in between back gear and Z-axis drive problems.

JRouche

SJorgensen
12-13-2005, 11:41 PM
Check fuse #14 for the Z axis stepper motor. What type of spindle brake have you got? Mine is pneumatic and sometimes the solenoid valve sticks.

Mine is the Rigid Ram type and I have a Hi-low shift lever for the spindle speed, but in either mode, I can usually turn the spindle if the brake is off. I don't think the crash was the main issue. I've snapped off a jackobs chuck, a couple of 5/8" end mills and quite a few 3/8" end mills before I learned better. Was your spindle bearing lube system working?
Still, jambing in both rotation and Z axis seems unlikely to me.

I'm anzious to hear what happened.

Spence

rsr911
12-13-2005, 11:55 PM
Well here's the details so far. I was able to turn the Z-axis motor with the machine off and free up the Z for the most part. Now with the machine on the Z moves up and down but sometimes sticks near the top. The spindle still will not rotate but the motor will turn if I hold the hi/lo lever between hi and lo. The brake is pneumatic and the air cylinder moves the arm, I'm going to check that it actually releases the brake.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

rsr911
12-14-2005, 12:05 AM
Ok,

Brake works. If I hold the shift lever between gears and turn the spindle motor on the brake stops it. Now I'm still stuck (pun intended).

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-14-2005, 12:12 AM
Since "both" the hi and lo speed are locked, A distance guess is that the belt drive has a problem in the head. There is a cover you can remove if like mine.

Do you have a manual to pre-look at the internals? I have one here but no way to scan it. Spence does have one pdf'ed I think.. Perhaps Adrian does on his site too.

My machine took a crap when I had some work sold.. the guy buying the stuff screamed at me.. I don't care if your big drill press is broke, you will get me my parts..

sdeering
12-14-2005, 02:30 AM
I did have mine all apart last year (Boss 5). I also have had some problems with oil not getting up to the three upper points. I could not figure it out, it had one line going to the top end. There was a restrictor at the pump then split to three points at the top. Two of them had restrictors in the line and one had none. Of course the one with none got all the oil and the other two little piggys got none. I removed these three points from the auto oiler system. Then ran the plastic hose out the motor switch and manually oil these three points.
The oil goes to the ball screw, quill bushing and a bearing, the bushing the quill slides in and out has no restrictor.
It all comes apart quite easy. the hardest part is the belt shiev that adjusts the speed. You should definatly check to see if the upper end is getting oil. this may be your problem.
The high/low has greese in it, so you could rule that out.
I also had some pluged restrictors going to the ways. I pretty mutch disasembled everything that had oil going to it cleaned and checked to make sure everything was getting oil. Its the only way to be sure.
Hope this helps Christian.
Stephen

rsr911
12-14-2005, 03:01 AM
Thanks Stephan, Dave, etc.

Well I got it working. I have a huge endmill holder I'll never use so against my better judgement I installed it and put a big pipe wrench on it. That still wouldn't turn the spindle so I put a pipe on the pipe wrench and that got it to turn a little. Just for the heck of it I tried starting in backgear and it turned fine. Tried high and that worked was well. I did put quite a bit of way oil inside the quill housing so that might have helped.

I'm gonna pull those lube lines and see if oil comes through, if not I'll figure out a solution like maybe a top reservoir that gravity feeds everything. Or maybe I'll replace the lines who knows. I figure it's safe to say I need at least one spindle bearing. No big deal there I was going to replace them when I teardown for new controls anyhow.

Talk about a load off my mind. I'm making a bunch of parts for a friend so he can sell brake kits plus I have an ad on ebay for my exhaust tool.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

rsr911
12-14-2005, 08:30 PM
Well,

Jammed again. I notice the bearing collar on the spindle moves when this happens. I'm guessing the bottom bearing is bad. I'll have to look in the book when I get home.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

SJorgensen
12-15-2005, 04:50 AM
In my experience the foremost expert on the boss 5 and probably the Bridgeport mills of all types and variety is a man named George T. Wroclawski. You might find him on the internet in Corvette circles by searching for him. He has been very helpful to me and he was a Bridgeport Serviceman. He is a great guy and and he has probably seen every problem that could be had, and very helpful. If you find him, tell him he has more than one fan in the world who owes him a tremendous amount. I only wish he was a regular on this website. He is a Bridgeport Guru.

rsr911
12-15-2005, 06:53 PM
I think I found him over at the CNC zone website. He helped me last year when the Z-axis stepper blew a transitor, talked to me over the phone for an hour. His name is George, don't know his last name, goes by Machinetek and used to work as a BP service man. Must be the same guy.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

rsr911
12-16-2005, 01:52 AM
FIXED! I think. My machine has a power drawbar so there is a protective cover over the spindle threads for the 30 taper tooling. Well this collar somehow loosenend and road up til it rubbed on the bottom of the quill. Both the collar and the quill noes are pretty galled up. I loosened it and moved it down and the machine ran fine for over an hour at about 2000rpms.

Now I can get back to work.... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

SJorgensen
12-16-2005, 03:30 AM
Wow,

Thats great news! Those BP spindles are built pretty tough. I'm glad it wasn't a bearing failure.

rsr911
12-16-2005, 10:08 AM
Spence I can't tell you the sense of relief I have today. I've got a backlog of parts that will take me all weekend to produce all because of a stupid collar! I'm sure glad that's all it was.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

rsr911
12-18-2005, 06:57 PM
Ugh, the Z-axis is broke again. The first thing I thought of was a blown transistor so I checked them for continuity and sure enough one of them was shorted out. I replaced it with the only spare I have and checked the axis, it moved just fine. Then I buttoned everything up and the Z won't move. I opened the quill panel and everything looked fine. I can turn the motor shaft with the machine off and the quill goes up and down with little effort. I then check all the fuses in the side panel and they are fine. I took the belt of the Z stepper and it just doesn't turn, acts like a bad transistor! It whines when I hit the jog button and that's it, seems to wobble within one step.

I can't find my notes from the last time it broke down, I do remember checking the transistors for voltage but can't remember how. Oh I also swapped the X driver board for the Z driver board and still no luck. Could something have been damaged when the spindle jammed? Any ideas what to check next and how?

The machine ran fine all day yesterday, this evening I came in to finish up some parts and it flat out doesn't work. As usual any help is greatly appreciated.


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-Christian D. Sokolowski

SJorgensen
12-19-2005, 12:53 AM
I'm reminded of how I was warned about the Z-axis axis fuse FU14 by Machinetek (Wroclawski.) I agree with your first assumption that the logic boards are probably ok because they pass their self-tests. The stepper controller boards should be good because you've swapped them and the problem didn't follow. It could be that the stepper motor itself is damaged. Can you swap the cable from another axis to, in effect, swap the motors without dismounting them(is there enough length?)

It is funny that I also had Z-axis failures, and also that it was predicted by Wroclawski. Solder balls would remain in the fuse holder and heat would cause fuses to fail without actually blowing the fuse (you couldn't tell visually sometimes. You'd have to use a meter. I replaced it with a breaker where I could see it if it popped, and haven't had any more problems with my Z.

The cable should unscrew from the motor. I'd like to know if the cable from another axis is long enough to reach.

Spence

sdeering
12-19-2005, 01:07 AM
It sounds like a transistor problem to me. If the motor is making nosie but not moving. It is usually a transistor. Probly a dumb question but are you checking the transistors fully. I'm not a pro but I think there is 3 things to check open, short, and voltage drop. Im luckey my machine came with 70 spare driver transistors. Or did I buy 70 transistors and get a free machine. Anyhow hope you get to the problem. Let us know how you made out.
Stephen

rsr911
12-19-2005, 01:25 AM
It only gets worse, somehow during my fiddling around I lost a transistor on the Y as well. I just got home a realized I had more spares here so tommorrow I'll replace the bad one on the Y so I can get back to looking at the Z. Spence can you tell me what type of breakers you bought? Are these replacing the main fuses to the drives? Mine was upgraded to plug in type fuses but I'd sure love to have breakers.

What sickens me is that I have a bunch of parts to finish that I'll get paid for as soon as they are done. If I had the time I'd gut it and just hook up my retrofit. Ive got the drives and powersupplies all ready to go but there is a lot of wiring involved so I can't rush. Besides that all my programs need to be changed for Mach 3. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

rsr911
12-19-2005, 01:26 AM
BTW, I don't know how to check a transistor fully. I just check if they are shorted to ground.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-19-2005, 11:17 AM
Darned.. throw your metal stock in the car and come visit me.

My machine runs flawless, I still am not healthy enough to run it. I can hardly read this $500 lcd monitor.

I fell like a sack of potatoes in the Ice last Friday. I was dragging this dead dog off into the woods to bury. *not mine.. and I stepped into a hole covered with icy leaves.. yep sprung my knee and ankle. There I was laying next to this dead-stiff-bloated dog thinking, gee was it my back, or my leg that snapped like a twig.. Dog did not get buried. I guess the possums have to eat too. Merry Christmas Mr Possum.

Dawai
12-19-2005, 11:23 AM
ANyone got the specs on the transistors in a Boss? I can draw up a flash-light tester for RS...

A old electrician used to carry a flashlight testor, it had two alligator clips that came out of the case in parallel with the switch. You clipped them onto a "good" transistor and the bulb lit. It put 3 volts into the transistor, just enough for gate threshold on the dc drives we had then.. Now the drives have Mosfets in them.

rsr911
12-19-2005, 03:25 PM
Thanks Dave, given the cold weather here I wouldn't mind a trip south.

Anyway George emailed me a file for diagnosing axis problems, I'm sure he won't mind me posting it here. I've put it on my server.

http://24.172.209.26/shop/BOSS%204%205%206%20repairs.doc


Also some picks of my shop here:

http://24.172.209.26/shop

The CNC and the big lathe are mine, everything else belongs to the company.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-19-2005, 05:11 PM
I'm willing to bet, in Twenty hours of work that machine could be converted. If you premounted your drives on a aluminum bar like I did mine, had the leads already made up to reach the motor terminal strip there on the bottom of the rear door. The isolator already wired to a parallel cable.

I used a opto22 board to isolate the step/dir signals, the limit inputs, the spindle on/off and the home switches.

There you are. I put a lot of excess controls into my conversion, since then I simplified it down to one port and less complications (I pulled out most the wire I pulled in). The 3 power banks seperate circuits, could be left alone, just unwired from the boss and wired to the Larken drives. About the only thing you'd need me for, the limit switches, they wire into the bottom/back of the right hand cabinet. If you wire them in a series circuit with the end result a e-stop relay, w bypass button, there you are.. put the enable circuit through the relay and to a opto22 cube to turn the 220 on/off on your xfrmer.

Might do it in a day, but that'd be thrashing and hashing. Much better to use two easy days than one nightmarish one.



[This message has been edited by David E Cofer (edited 12-19-2005).]

rsr911
12-19-2005, 07:09 PM
David,

When I do the conversion the whole side cabinet is going to be removed. I've got a rackmount case with three nice rackmount 10amp powersupplies, a rackmount compter case, rackmount keyboard/mouse drawer. I've transfered the guts of my aftermarket controller into a rackmount case as well, now all I have to do is mount my LCD monitor in the cabinet and I'm ready to start wiring it up. The rear cabinet is going to go as well. Ive got a much smaller box for the motor reactors and misc other stuff I'll be keeping, like a coolant relay etc. I'm gonna wire are the limits and the E-stop into that cabinet and put connectors to attach to my rackmount. The stepper cables will get moved there as well so I'll have connectors for each axis to the rackmount cabinet. I figure several weeks of evenings and weekends to do this right. While I'm at it the machine is going to get cleaned and painted.

Anyway I went through the procedure on that George sent me and found 3 dead transistors. The rectifiers all read just under 0.5v like around 0.46-0.48 a bit low but I think they are fine. I replaced the bad Z-axis transistor and another one blew out, something is shorted somewhere. I'm taking a break for a bit before I try and hunt that down. Wound up with one bad on the Z and two on the Y. I think I killed the Y though checking amperage, the leads popped off and I put them back on, George's directions state not to let this happen but I did it before I knew any better. I'm gonna replace the bad Y axis transistors first and see if the Y will work again, then I'll tackle the Z. With any luck I'll have it working tonight, but I'm not holding my breath.

One more thing David, what did you wind up with for spindle control? Wouldn't happen to have a diagram would you? My controller has 4 opto-relays. I'm gonna have one for spindle, one for mist, one for flood and one unknown at this time, maybe spindle brake or a buzzer for another room so I know when the program is done.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-19-2005, 09:02 PM
Spindle brake is one thing I unwired, it is now completely manual switched. Power blinks, Bill reboots, outputs change states as I am changing a end mill, mill head turns on, brake off.. BAD thoughts in the middle of the night about this happening to my only two hands.

If the spindle brake works, the inverter trips due to overcurrent. It will not budge.

Yes, I have a diagram, I think I posted it on Adrians site

Take the motor leads loose on top, *make sure they are marked.. ohm motor out, thou I would look at the old cables first before I swapped out a motor.

MY SPINDLE CONTROL? Yeah, I took the inverter common, looped it serialy through the opto22 module, then up to the fwd/rev selector on the head, then the TWO fwd and rev wires back to the inverter FWD, REV run inputs.. I mounted a 5k (varies on inverters) ten turn pot next to it. You can fine tune in the spindle speed there, with the gearbox speed adjustor exactly what you want..

I thought of a pickup, and using Mach3 to control spindle speed, but.. yeah.. more complications.. KISS.. Keep it simple Stupid.
Don't you have to be there anyways? Might as well adjust the speed. You are there keyboarding the feedrate Percentage as the cheap as crap endmills wear out anyways..

I got a I/O printout of my setup on the BBS too.
Sounds like your setup is going to outclass mine.. but.. butt... Mine is hooked to three robots too... ha ha.. The cnc mill is not the only toy on CPU control there..

I am concerned how you are going to read the lcd while working at the head? Draw me a picture.. come on.. I got a $599 sony lcd here.. to help with my blurred vision..

Dawai
12-19-2005, 09:11 PM
First time I wired my machine, I used two outputs for the inverter directions.. M03 fwd M04 rev M05 to stop.. now, it is just M03/5

BUT, you have to mechanically flip the lever hi lo range, what is wrong with flipping a directional switch then too?

Simpler is better. I have a master relay you still push the green button so the software will work. it enables the limits, the spindle controls.

FORGET ALL THIS LITTLE STUFF, my wife just made some chocolate/coconut bon bons.. I gotta go.. Damn they're good

Later:
(making sign of the cross... get thee behind me chocolate)

Ohh yeah, a X-arcade keyboard emulator allows you to use buttons to activate the software with keystrokes at the head.. ie a joystick, up/dn spindle, Reset software to (0) line, estop, .. lemme see.. Tilde key resets software estop, space, cntrl, Alt, I use the arrow keys as joystick controls.. but that can be added in the manner of a pendant control you can hold in your hand.. or..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/ibewgypsie/bridgeportcnc_002.jpg
hang there by magnets like mine..

The PS2 control, software interface I did can throw keyboard keycodes into the "open application" software.. two joysticks.. 11 buttons.. yeah and compact.. Not fluid proof thou.

[This message has been edited by David E Cofer (edited 12-19-2005).]

rsr911
12-19-2005, 10:57 PM
David,

It's working again!

No your's will outclass mine as you're running bipolar. My new drives are unipolar but I do have a jog pendant with E-stop and 4th axis if I ever need it. As for reading the LCD monitor, the cabinet is on wheels and I was building a splash guard before all this spindle/axis garbage ate up a bunch of time. My plan is to roll the cabinet around front when I need it and to the side when I don't. I do 10-30 parts at a time so once it's programmed I just have to start the spindle and hit run between parts. I'm tempted to figure out a program start button for the mill head, that would make it too easy.

Mine's 3-phase from the power company so I won't have a VFD. Ive heard bad things about the spindle switch though. I'm thinking of grabbing one of these AC vector drives and see if it will work for the spindle, I can do all sorts of stuff with those including speed or torque control. I'll have a toggle for reverse and a pushbutton start in case I don't want to start from software. I also need to figure out a program continue button for toolchanges. Part of the reason for the rackmount cabinet is to mount a stereo amp up top for my computer's sound card so I can have tunes while working in the shop, gonna have a second comp on a KVM for that since I don't want to mess with the CNC comp when it's running.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

rsr911
12-20-2005, 03:35 AM
I am going to permanently carry a piece of wood around so I can knock on it from time to time, maybe I'll also carry a bible and a rabbit's foot, the mill ran great tonight. I got most 7 sets of one part finished but I'll be paying for it in the morning (up way too late). Hopefully another late night tommorrow will put me back on schedule. What a relief. I've got to order a bunch of transistors though, I've got a hodgepodge mix matched set in there now. Nice thing is I bought a bunch of Boss 5 boards on ebay not too long ago and they sent the transistor blocks along so I can setup good sets off the mill and quickly install when I pop another one. I adjusted the X,Y,and Z amps down to 8.0-8.2 and adjusted down the rapid a touch jsut to keep her running til I get free time for my upgrade. If anyone here is interested in my parts when I do the changeover let me know now so I can keep you in mind when the time comes. I'll have the whole side cabinet with all the boards plus 4 extra stepper boards, and ACC board, SMS board, ERS board LSI 11 board, RCK board, XDI board, 3 extra transistor blocks, and the operator panel. I'll also have most of the rear cabinet. This stuff is going for stupid money on ebay, I'll gladly take a fair offer when the time comes since I'd rather someone here got the stuff.

Now if I can finish these parts, make some tools I sell on ebay and several sets of soft jaws for the vises and big lathe, stock up on extras of the parts I just made and rewrite all the code for Mach 3 I just might be ready to take the plunge LOL http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-20-2005, 10:28 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/ibewgypsie/Bridgeport_mill_001.jpg

Swivel for the monitor, and the Keyboard, mouse/trackball..

It actually is a Dentists accessory swivel from a dental - tattoo chair I had.

I went to repossess that chair, my buddy with the tattoo bus now, he almost cried, he said that was his "SEX chair" and he could not live without it..I said good god man... I'll take my old barber chair there.. (next to it) it is now on a barrel castor set next to my cnc.

Dawai
12-20-2005, 10:54 AM
X-Arcade makes a UltiMarc keyboard emulator.
http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
With this system, if you were foolish enough to use it for all your digital inputs into the "SOFTWARE:" it would function fine 99.99% of the the time. I would trust it with the home switches I think, as long as I had a hardwired end limit in place. It requires Normally open switch inputs.

I am using that in the stainless box there. I bought two arcade digital joysticks, about a dozen buttons, two dozen micro switches for less than $50. The X-arcade board was $35.. there is one with only 20 inputs for $25.. I didn't need the 50.. but.. if you know me.. yeah,, that is how I am.. I had to have the BIGGEST and the best..

In Notepad, activate the software, then configure the keystrokes to anything you want them to be. ie Cntrl, W, R, S, T, Tilde, etc.. extended keycodes are harder.. I am using a shift key.. The Tilde button that requires a shift button to be pressed too, but.. two contacts would solve that.. A computer is not required by start up to have a keyboard with this rig, unless you are modifying a program, it could be put away.. Mine in the shop is so nasty you can't read half the keys now.. Good thing I remember where I left them.

I had this on my wifes Majohng, she would rather use the trackball.. so.. I hear click click click.. instead of the joystick.. I made a arcade style case.. BUT, now this monitor is so clear.... Yeah... "ARE YOU DONE YET" I hear.. while I am on this puter..

rsr911
12-21-2005, 01:00 AM
Thanks Dave I'll check into it. While we are on the subject are BP motors inverter duty? I found the perfect like AC drive to run my spindle, has reverse built in 3 preset speeds plus variable speed with remote pot.

Mill ran great tonight, "printed money" for a friday pickup, now I can get a few special presents I had in mind for the wife and daugther. I got done a little early so I wrote some code to make an SS ashtray for my best friend who doesn't smoke but collects ashtrays.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-21-2005, 01:11 AM
Inverter duty usually means the windings are glued down extra good to stop harmonics and it has a larger fan on the end to cool at low speeds. years ago when I would install a inverter, the sounds coming from the motor were really unique. OHHHHMMMWAAAWEEE

My motor has gave no problems, running a motor at slower than designed speed does not circulate enough air flow.

What brand inverter are you looking at? digital input (frequency follower?) if so.. you can control it with Mach3 directly.

there are however, NOW LOOK.. two Resistor-capacitor networks across the motor contactor-starter.. It dampens the reverse impulse to the OLD SCHOOL cpu.. It asorbs and releases energy.. IT WILL BLOW THE HECK OUT OF A INVERTER's transistors. The switch on the head fwd reverse works this contactor. Save the wires and numbers. You won't need the contactor, nor the overloads if you set up the inverter properly.

Hmm.. a little smoke ring.. I wonder how expensive that was.. ha ha.. Yeah.. been there.. got a tee shirt.. Last week I sewed all the tshirts into a bed spread.. *(really)

rsr911
12-21-2005, 01:27 AM
http://web1.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives_-z-_Motors/GS1_(120_-z-_230_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)/GS1-22P0

Yup digital inputs. As for the ashtray I made a solid SS roll for my company's adhesive coating machine about a month ago. The piece I'm gonna use for the ash tray is the drop from that project. I'm gonna leave all the endmill marks in it for that "engine turned" look.

I had a fun night, running parts on the CNC while making some idler rolls for a customer on the big Polamco lathe, I tell ya no matter how many times I do it, spinning an 18" 4-jaw at 1800 rpms still scares the heck outta me. My friend who I'm making the rolls for was quoted $125 for each roll with bearings by a large machine shop in town. He asked me and I told him I could do one for $95 out the door, he says great how soon can you have 31 done http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif I made two tonight for him to check fitment before I make the rest during the holiday break. Seems my hobby is turning into a second job lately but that's a good thing as the wife finally went back to work after two years of struggling to pay all the bills by myself, almost sold the car but couldn't part with it. Made myself a deal that the machining hobby had to be self supporting and support the car hobby, so far so good.

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-Christian D. Sokolowski

Dawai
12-21-2005, 10:29 AM
Single phase input, 3ph output is what I have.

I did that of course to correct not having 3ph.

Your transformer there in the bottom of the rear box, are you keeping it or going to a single phase one? if so.. it would be nice if your machine was able to be ran single phase all the way.

I heard you mention that your new cabinet will be mobile? are you aware the cables going out to the motors are not long enough? As the table moves, they are cut short as is on the machine. I tried to stretch mine up to the top, nope. If you are losing fuses, I'd look the cables over real well. Slide your hand down them and check for imbedded shavings.

I personally prefer to seperate the LOW level electricial from the noisy inverter or motor contactors/wires.

rsr911
12-21-2005, 06:47 PM
Dave,

I'm going to remove both cabinets. I'll have a small cabinet for the AC drive and 3 phase wiring and a small junction cabinet for the stepper cables and other low level stuff. Both cabinets will have large multi-pin plugs to accept wires from the rolling rack mount cabinet, AC high will be separate from DC control and stepper voltages. I got the connectors and cable from a buddy in electrical sales who owed me a favor. What did you think of that inverter, will it be easy to control with Mach 3?

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-Christian D. Sokolowski