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Millman
12-26-2005, 03:45 AM
Is it just me getting older, or are most of the young dudes not wanting to get steady jobs and learn a good trade? Ok, machinists still don't get paid what we're worth. We can only make a mistake once. We can't use erasers or "DELETE" buttons. Truly;...a dying breed of men. Just recent observations.

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Dave da Slave

ZMAN
12-26-2005, 08:34 AM
I agree! and have commented the same! we have a hard time finding motivated workers in the Construction field!! But as far as Machinist! The Majority High Schools have dismantled or degraded their Auto shops and Machine Shops
Lack of funding thanks to our Legislators What a shame !! Scott

wierdscience
12-26-2005, 08:52 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ZMAN:
I agree! and have commented the same! we have a hard time finding motivated workers in the Construction field!! But as far as Machinist! The Majority High Schools have dismantled or degraded their Auto shops and Machine Shops
Lack of funding thanks to our Legislators What a shame !! Scott</font>

I don't like politicians,but this one can't be blamed entirely on them,this one is the fault of the parents.

I have heard it more than once from the parents of kids who would be good machinists or mechanics."why don't you go to school and learn how to make money being a doctor or lawyer""you don't want to wind up in a deadend job do you"?.
See they don't want the're baby to be a second class citizen by getting the're hands dirty.

rockrat
12-26-2005, 09:05 AM
Yup, things are different. Seems like there are a set of jobs now that are "under" young workers standards. Most young men that I talk to want to have a $50k per year job sitting in fromt of the computer at a desk playing games. I just have not decided how they got this impression. Too much TV?

It might well be the school system. I was never given the choice of engineer or machinist in school. They always told me that I would be a good salesman or manager.

There is this push to get every kid to go to college (not a horrible idea) and get a degree in some office type job. One of these days, all of the good machinist will be gone and those of us with the knowhow will be in demand again.

Heck, look at the programming language cobal. Supposedly a dead computer language but when Y2K came along, many gents I knew that were good in cobal were paid beond well for thier services. Most are still working, if they wanted.

ZMAN
12-26-2005, 09:13 AM
Your right! I did not want to get into the whys our who's! Just the fact that this seems to have happened! Scott

PTSideshow
12-26-2005, 09:22 AM
Being in the Detroit area and the auto industry job market area. It is easy to see what is happening. I graduated from a trade high school in the late sixties. in tool and die working. in the this area then fords was shipping die work, kellering and stamping work to South America were they were making .50 to .75 US. A shop I was sent to for a job was getting out of the biz and reopening as a snowmoblie dealer ship. Didn't last as it was in a industrial shop area sort of off the beating path. the guy that owned it told me go to school and get some more education because it was over and never would be coming back as it was.
their was an small arctile in the newspapers a couple of months ago about so many small job and mom and pop shops closing. That had old style tooling and machines. Non computer-op that they were not having acutions any more because the machines brought more if they were sold as scrap to China. As I see the cost of scrap metals and now cardcard stock and corr cardboard/newspaper climbing. All being shipped over to China.
A small shop has to be really on top of its game to survie. Or be able to make some hobby related items to keeep cash coming in.
Locally Delphi wasn't the only one making big pay cuts or reduding staff to continue.
Itsa sad and to bad that its coming to this. but when people in this country stop buying the new cars and keep the cars longer. Maybe they will reduce the over the top compensation to the excutives.

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Glen
Been there, probally broke it doing that

bob308
12-26-2005, 10:18 AM
my 2 cents:
back when i was in high school i took the vocational course in machine shop the other one was auto shop. we were treated like we were in the retard class. even though we could do trig. problems the thrid year trig. students had not even heard of.
there has been an over all dumb down and elitest mentality of if you dont go to collage you dont know anything and you never will.

MTNGUN
12-26-2005, 10:24 AM
Our society looks down upon people who work with their hands. Parents want their kids to go to college and get a white collar job. I have nothing against college but nothing against learning a trade, either.

BobWarfield
12-26-2005, 11:06 AM
I've got a college degree (near PhD) and have one of the desk jobs. I've got a lot of friends that work with their hands. They're very nice and very smart people who are definitely not folks I would think I'm superior to!

To get that point across to my kids, I have pointed to the idea that owning your own business is a great accomplishment no matter what that business may be. One thing kids understand is that being your own boss sounds great.

I'm not to sure they comprehend the responsibility that brings, but one lesson at a time!

BillH
12-26-2005, 11:27 AM
As a young person who grew up in one of the richest counties in the richest state of the country, I can tell you how it really is. It has nothing to do with getting your hands dirty. It has to do with making lots of money. None of the parents want to see their kids working their ass off to only end up living paycheck to paycheck. And the mindset is that if you are blue collar, that is how you will spend the rest of your life, working paycheck to paycheck. Correct, Wrong, what ever the truth is, that is the view.
You dont want to be the worker bee, you want to be guy that owns the company. And if you are a worker bee, it should be in something that will make you lots of money.
You all see Adrians workshop, all his nice toys, that is what every parent wants to see their kids be able to do.
There are snobs and yuppies and they pick on everyone, and theres tons of decent people too in the upper tax brackets that have lots of respect for people that get their hands dirty. You can't paint this one with a broad stroke, its just like anything else.
Living in the North East, the jobs that make the most money are the white collar, work in the office, requires the 4 year degree minimum, be certified in 10 different things and blah blah blah.
So many of my classmates from High School, dropped out of college, living dirt poor, cant find a job, realising they cannot duplicate the success of their parents and have been hit hard by reality. And to remember the attitudes they had in High SChool, thinking they were all going to make 150K a year or more(the average income of the town I lived in), Ah the saying is young and stupid.
All I want in life is a loving wife, family, and to live on enough acres of land in the country where I can open up my living room window and blast a deer without anyone giving a crap. And ofcourse to make enough money where im comfortable and have a nice pension(federal job).

Warren
12-26-2005, 12:27 PM
I always wanted to be a mechanic when I was younger. I enlisted in the Air Force & spent ten years as a heavy equipment operator. learned to Drill water wells, Use explosives, build & repair things. During my stay in Florida I also worked as an automotive machinist & a welder for a fellow. I learned many things then. I did a short time as a Caterpillar Machanic upon leaving the service.
I now own a small repair company here in New Hampshire. Am I rich? Not even close. But I have no pressure that a $150K per year job brings & really do not lack for much. I specialize in welding repairs & portable line boring. I have made a good living working with my hands & have found that some of the Collage boys really appreciate your skills when he cannot get his machine to work. Of course there will always be the snobby set. I don't let em bother me. You have to work smart & don't rely on someone else to define your destiny for you.

Having said that unfortunatly not everybody has the will & detrmination to strike off on his own. It is bloody hard work at times. But well worth it in my book.

Millman is right, not many of the young kids want to work. The ones who do have figured out they can make good money if they get out of bed & get with it! I know a few.

The world is a changing, Thats for sure

Rex
12-26-2005, 01:19 PM
Yeah, I have one of those $50K jobs in front of a computer. Not all it's cracked up to be.
When I was in HS back in the 1960s, I wanted to take metalshop. The class was all afternoon, and it took 3 the place of 3 elective classes. I was structured so you could not take metalshop and also get the classes you would need to get into college. I was an A student, and was discouraged from taking metalshop. Had I been able to, I likely would have ended up an ME. As it was, I would up in junior college taking courses I had no interest in, so dropped out and went to work.
Now 30 years later, I sure wish I had taken that machining course.

Your Old Dog
12-26-2005, 01:31 PM
Rex, you struck a chord !! In high school I was denied a seat in the photography class. I have worked as a professional photographer for some 35 years now.

I wanted in metal shop or woodshop but they wouldn't take me. I now have a nearly complete metalworking shop and a complete woodworking shop. Most of my tools have been paid for by projects done with them!

Some of the issue of high schools folding up metal arts class I think is an egotistical problem of principles and teachers who want to be able to say, "I want all my students to be successful and find a cure for cancer". The day is soon coming when a person who can run a metal fabrication shop might just be the top wage earner in our country. The work still needs to be done by someone.

3 Phase Lightbulb
12-26-2005, 02:00 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Your Old Dog:
The day is soon coming when a person who can run a metal fabrication shop might just be the top wage earner in our country. The work still needs to be done by someone.</font>

Sounds like that "Day" is what they call Doomsday http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

I'd much rather see the Day when you just buy a "metal shop in a box". You plug it in, You stick raw material (powered steel for instance) in one end, search/pick from a list of 50 billion different parts that can be made, press the "go" button, and out comes the part(s) you requested. You buy/sell databases of parts.

-Adrian

PTSideshow
12-26-2005, 02:32 PM
Having retired from more than 31 years in a school system. I can tell you some of the reasons that the shops were fazed out. one was the kids them selfs. A friend who taught woodshop was hit in the head with a hammer by a student, he still will never be normal again. And to many other stories of what happened with a shrap or pointed object in class and you looking at me stuff. not to mention the zip guns ect made in schools. The liability of what can be made in the shops. The other thing is the age of the machines and cost of replacemenmts. in Jr and high school all most 99% of the machines in all the classrooms were gov surplus, not counting on all the tooling and drills and taps. from the USAC, USA, and joint ventures of the auto companies and gov. when the stuff statred to wear out and educator interest in manual education class started to shift to college classes.
After all in the late 60's and early 70's They were telling us all we would be using jet packs and have robots and Adrians shop in a box top do the grunt work.
In education shop and manual classes cost more money. besides they need as much funding
as they can steal form the other areas for boys sports so maybe one of or students will be famous one day!

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Glen
Been there, probally broke it doing that

operose
12-26-2005, 04:56 PM
I see this topic pop up occasionally on the board here, and always have to throw in my spare change...\

I graduated from high school a year or so ago.. the only year I had free to take metal shop was the year they stopped offering it.

however, I was able to take many other shop classes with the same wonderful teacher (thanks leuth) including principles of engineering, creativity in woodworking, transportation systems, production systems (mass production class) etc..

my not being able to take metalshop has not stopped me at all from pursuing my interests.. the only thing is that it's actually what I'm interested in.

I like cars, and alternative energy, and building things.. I like working with my hands, always have, it's the way my daddy did it, and the way his daddy and their daddy's all did it too..

right now I'm working an office job. I sit in a cubicle all day. it's really boring, and I would prefer to be at home working on something. if there is one observation about "them damn kids these days.." it would have to be that they don't even know what they want, and nobody is helping them find out.

kids grow up in front of the television eating little debby cakes and drinking mountain dew.. how does this help us build a productive society? it doesn't.. mostly it all stems from these damn office jobs everyone is working. mom and dad both go to work all day, kids get home from school and there is nobody there to act as a role model. no dad in the garage fixing the lawnmower or making an anemometer out of an old '37 chevy speedometer.

mom gets home at 7pm and microwaves the little runts some junk, and they continue to do nothing but sit on their rears all day.. this is what we've been reduced to

there was no chance for me to sit on my ass all day, and it's probably made me a better person. and you know what? I'm pretty much the same age as all these kids you guys say are ruining the world

to quote bob marley:

"Why do they fight against the poor youth of today?
And without these youths, they would be gone -
All gone astray"


don't blame the kids, blame their damn 50 hour a day, 5 days a week, workweek parents and their employers

Wirecutter
12-26-2005, 05:01 PM
I was also directed away from shop classes and toward "college track" stuff. Knowing what I missed is a large part of what made me put together a shop at home. I still have a helluva lot to learn about making stuff out of metal, but this board is a great resource for information - both on- and off-topic.

I've had a go at a little farming. I got to the point where I was trusted to run a cattle farm for a few weeks while the owner-operator went to the Carribean with his family. It was 250 head of feeder cattle. (Vacations like that are quite rare for most owner-operator farmers, and I was glad to help facilitate it.) I did this while on break from college, and I loved the lifestyle. I also realized that, while a great thing to do on my "vacation", it would be a tough living. I probably would not have liked it on a permanent basis. I developed a healthy respect for what that man did all his life. (for very low pay)

I can say the same about working with metal. I could probably have gone that route, but that decision was essentially made for me a long time ago. ("Kid, you need to go to college!")

Years later, I like what I do, and I'm grateful that I'm successful enough to be able to afford the tools to play with now. If I depended on metal to make a living, I doubt it would be as much fun. The obvious downside to "my chosen path" is that so many have gone the same way I have, so there are fewer and fewer "old-timers" and the like to pass on the techniques.

CCWKen
12-26-2005, 05:21 PM
Yep! Been on both sides of the fence in my career(s). There's a lot of money to be made out there. Service or profession, each need the other. It seems to be getting better for the service oriented businesses. There's no place else to go since most younger folks can't change a light bulb.

The next time one of the yups complains about the price of machining, tell them to get it done by a doctor or lawyer and see what it cost. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Fasttrack
12-26-2005, 05:35 PM
Just my input:
I'm a 17 year old kid in high school. Now most people might be expecting me to defend the "young dudes not wanting to get steady jobs and learn a good trade", only I agree. I've always been considered one of the "honors" students and am planning to go into high energy physics, but along with my fascination and love of elementary particles, i also love working with my hands. Naturally I took as many automotive (our school does not have any kind of metal working shop or class) classes as I could but i was disheartened and shocked at the number of kids who didn't care to learn about the cars or do things right. They were the kind of idiots who'd end up using an impact wrench on an oil plug. Of course the kids in my honors and "AP" courses are no better, they all want to be doctors or lawyers or some other profession they think will bring them easy money. Aside from that, they are very condescending of the real hard working people that i beleive built America. My brother-in-law is a farmer in Missouri and I grew up with people like him and his friends. They are all hard working individuals who believe any honest job is a good job. It was quite a shock to meet the people in my highschool and see the difference. I think our society and all of America would be alot better off if there were more hardworking individuals who respected all the people sacraficing thier bodies to literally build our houses, cars, and etc.

bobbybeef
12-26-2005, 06:03 PM
Well yes,there are pros and cons for each position in this discussion. But in the end it all comes down to the kid its self.The dumbest kid with the most caring parents might never make a million but the care and help given by his parents might well keep him out of the poor house.
On the other hand the smartest kid can often succed despite having the most ignorant,uncaring,selfish and stupid parents possible.
Working paycheck to paycheck is what most people do. think of all the Army,Navy and Airforce people. What about all the Police,Nurses and doctors in the public health system. All are doing wothwhile jobs and being good at that is what they want.Making a lot of money is the least of the worries these days. Keeping in employment is important and ONE way to do this is own your own business. Or perhaps I should have said owning the bit the bank doesnt own.
As a farmer I dont see much difference between the two styles of employment. I often would be happy to swap with some of my mates in weekly wage employment. Given that drought is part of my scene,I guess that everyone has there own form of drought or other problem.
Brains and decision making ability will,like cream,rise to the top. For the rest of us just be the best you can at what you want to do.

Bobby.

ZMAN
12-26-2005, 06:09 PM
Lots of great view points! ! Great topic Millman !! Scott

Mcruff
12-26-2005, 06:52 PM
I'll add my .02ยข. I had great grades in High school 25 years ago and even had thoughts about going to the Citadel. My parents didn't push me one way or another. I on my own decided that at age 18 I like to build things to much to be stuck somewhere doing a job I hated or was unsure of. I enrolled in in a vo-tech school in Clearwater Fl, managed to stay there 18 weeks before finding an apprenticeship for moldmaking. My father was a Tool & Diemaker and my Grandfather also did it during the war but was also a school teacher. I served my 3 year apprenticeship in 21 months. Do I dislike it? No!
On the contrary after working in a shop since 1981 I still love building stuff and the more complex and tougher it is the more I enjoy it. I don't actually work as a Moldmaker anymore, more a repairman on the molds that the company I work for tears up, this part I don't care for but it pays the bills and affords me the use of there CNC equipment when I want along with the money to buy my own hobby equipment. It is a great career and very satisfying, my brother worked in an office for 5 years and just about went nuts. I think alot of the problem with the young anymore is the disposable instant society that we now live in, there no reason to fix something anymore, just buy a new one.
So many of the kids nowadays think anything that is not modern is totally obsolete also, my son included.
The young have also been blinded by teachers and parents claiming that college is the only way to make a decent living, along with a generation of idiots in charge that think if you don't have that almighty degree you're ignorant. I know my plant manager and alot of the salary guys where I work have learned the hard way that there few toolmakers are far more intelligent than they ever dreamed. We have risen to a status of (as my direct boss likes to claim) godliness.
If I had to sit in front of a computer in a cubicle all day I would last about a month or so!

RAD1
12-27-2005, 11:36 AM
It seems like alot of the community colleges in the northeast are dropping machinist and welding courses etc... It's a lot cheaper to fill a classroom with desks than it is to fill a large room with machinery and keep it running. Then train nurses and such, instead of tradesman. It's all about the money. Let's face it, most peoples attitude is: what's in it for me.

Wirecutter
12-27-2005, 11:56 AM
I have to chime in again about the almighty college degree...

When I first got into the telecom business in the early 90's, my primary job was "design debug". A manufacturer would change a part slightly (usually make it faster or better somehow) and it would upset the applecart. The complex systems I worked with were timed pretty tightly, so adding a nanosecond here or there could have big ripple effects. My job was to find the problem and implement design changes to fix it.

As a side effect, I could assess the quality of the work of various design engineers. The more casual engineers designed to "typical" cases. That's fine until something changes or goes to extreme - in temperature, for example. The really good ones tried to design to "worst case" values at all times. Make no mistake - that kind of rigor in a complex design is a lot of effort, and often not noticed or appreciated. But I was in a position to see the effects of just how much effort an engineer was willing to put into his work.

So what's my point? Well, one of the best engineers on the team (of 50 or so engineers) was a guy who never even graduated high school. He started as a tech, on a contract (temporary) basis and worked his way up through the ranks. He rose quickly to complex digital system design, doing ASICs and FPGAs mostly. His work was thorough, consistent, and good. But he has no degree of any kind, not even high school. There's no doubt that there was some timing and luck involved in getting the chance to show what he could do and move up, but not having the degree to fall back on meant he had something to prove. He proved it.

I don't think there are many jobs that require even 50% of the material you learn in getting a degree. The degree only proves that you have some amount of discipline and focus - not that you necessarily know anything. You have only proved that you can learn. When you graduate and get a job, you're likely to spend a long time just learning the ropes and the specifics of the job, just like an apprentice would. If you think you already know something, does that mean you'll never learn any more about it? I hope not.

Mcruff got it right, and he's a lucky one. I'd also like to remind everyone of the old quote of "find a job you like and you'll never work a day in your life." (or put in a Dilbert perspective: "Having fun at work is like stealing from the company.") I like what I do, and it gets me out of bed in the morning.

Millman
12-27-2005, 12:26 PM
Back in the mid-seventies, I had a trainee who watched every move I made at work. This guy was totally involved in learning the trade. One day we were joking around and I told him; "Your only job in life is to be as good as me", He looked me square in the eye and said, "Dave,I'm going to be BETTER than you". I almost tore his arm off shaking his hand and from then on I taught him ALL the shortcuts to being the best! I was proud of his DRIVE and DESIRE and I just haven't seen that kind of Fire, so; Derrick, whereever you are, I hope you keep all your digits and have a good career.

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Dave da Slave

HTRN
12-27-2005, 02:59 PM
As one of the socalled "young guys", let me chime in - Would you work 10 hours a day OR MORE in a filthy machine shop for less than thirty thousand a year? Would you fix cars for $9 an hour? That's what they're paying folks. Kids don't want to "get their hands dirty" because they don't want to do back breaking labor for a pittance. They don't want to live in rat hole apartments till they're in their fifties. Housing costs in the Northeast have skyrocketed - you're looking at $300K for a glorified shack. As for unions don't get me started - most of the guys I know in well paying unions either bribed their way in, or had it fall into their lap.

Construction in general is dominated by illegals, so unless you want to earn $6 an hour, you go find a better job.

The real bright future these days is medical jobs, like pharmacists and physical therapists - it's lifetime employment, and it pays very well.


HTRN

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This Old Shed (http://thisoldshed.tripod.com)

operose
12-27-2005, 03:15 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Millman:
I was proud of his DRIVE and DESIRE and I just haven't seen that kind of Fire, so; Derrick, whereever you are, I hope you keep all your digits and have a good career.

</font>

well I'm right here with all my digits! no "career" though

oops sorry wrong derrick

bob308
12-27-2005, 03:30 PM
well welding in the north east is a lost cause. because everyone thinks he can weld.i hold over 15 certifcations and if i go in for a job i get offered as much a the kid right out of high school. alot of places will pay more for forklift drivers, assemblers, parts pickers. then they will for a welder.

i have my own business and the people come in and i tell them $25 per hour and they act like i am trying to rob them. but they will pay $35 an hour for me to work on their car or truck.

Fasttrack
12-27-2005, 05:00 PM
"Would you fix cars for $9 an hour? "

Where I'm at, a shop hour is between 50 and 90 bucks an hour. If your a "factory trained" technician (i.e. if you've gone to say UTI and took thier Ford program or etc)hourly wage is between 30-70 bucks. Hardly 9 bucks an hour...even the technicians at Firestone get between 12 and 20 and thats for high school kids with no automotive background what-so-ever. In fact I've got a friend who works there and he hasnt even taken any auto courses at school.

Its a shame how little welders and machinists are valued, though. Seems like everyone thinks they can weld because they got a job on an assembly line making the same bead over and over again. The real kicker is that the bead sucks, no matter how much practice they get. they don't have the same skill a pro welder has but no one seems to mind the difference in quality since they can save a few bucks.

MikeyR
12-27-2005, 05:16 PM
Seems to me that the one thing these "computer jockeys et al" can't seem to realize is that someone has to make the dies, molds, etc. for them to even HAVE a computer. When all the kids getting out of school can run a computer, but can't figure out how to plug it in, where are we gonna be?

Fasttrack
12-27-2005, 09:22 PM
Brooks and Dunn had a thing or two to say:

"I'm a hard workin' man
I wear a steel hard hat
I can ride, rope, hammer and paint
Do things with my hands that most men can't
I can't get ahead no matter how hard I try
I'm gettin' really good at barely gettin' by"

Furnace
12-28-2005, 03:17 PM
Out of all the people in the world, people with college degrees make laught the most often. I work at a water plant and in the 5 years I have been there I have seen atleast 5 guys with college degrees come and go. The reason they make me laugh so damn hard is that theyre by far the laziest, whiniest, dumbest people to come through there. By dumb I mean common sense, which theyve all lacked. I work side by side, day to day with 3 guys who have only High School education. And those men would be the ones I would call if I was ever in a life or death situation and needed and educated answer to save my sorry hide. Dont get me wrong, an education is a good thing, but my dad never went to college and was the smartest guy I have ever known. Im 29 years old and I will be the first to admit that most of my generation isnt worth a damn, thats why all of my close friends are in their 40's or 50's. Thyere trustworthy, not lazy and not strung out on crystal meth, like most of the people I graduated with are...damn shame. Oh yeah one of the fine college educated men I work with will almost literally cry if you ask him to do something where he might get dirty. Thats why our boss asks the 4 of us to do a job since its easier and less time consuming to convince us.

SHOPA$$
01-03-2006, 08:12 PM
Sorry to dig up this ole' thread. But trying to catch up with the rest of the world today.

Machinist-(noun)-a born superman with talents and powers beyond the average mortal's reach.



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Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

SHOPA$$
01-03-2006, 08:29 PM
oops double post

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Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

[This message has been edited by SHOPA$$ (edited 01-03-2006).]

KENZ
01-03-2006, 10:54 PM
When I was growing up I didn't take any shop classes. I got to do enough at home. My Dad did custom woodworking and I would help him in the shop. I was also into motorcylces and ATVs. My Dads motto was "if you break it, you fix it".

I read every book I could find about mechanics and engines in particular.
I got good at taking stuff apart and putting it back together- with no pieces left over.

Heck I even bought a cheap moped, a die grinder and a degree wheel so I could try porting a 2-stroke engine. Didn't want to screw up an expensive motorcycle. Not to brag but at 15 I did it. I can tell you that an 1980s Suzuki PE50 gets a might twitchy at 55MPH. I always wanted to build an expansion chamber exhaust for that thing. I could find info about the theory, but nothing hardcore with the formulas to actually build one.

I also started a lawn service when I was 13 doing the nieghbors lawns and after a couple of years getting some commercial contracts. Again more mechanical stuff to fix. It's amazing how fast sand tears up the mower decks and linkages. Because of that I learned to weld plates over the holes, build up the linkage pins, grind them back to size because some were welded to the linkage arms, anything to save on repair bills and save the profit for other stuff.

The point of all that is really enjoyed the fixing, welding and maintenance of mechanical stuff more than anything. So when it came time for me to "grow up" I wanted to be a motorcycle mechanic. I decided that I wanted to go school in Orlando for it.

Problem was that the school was expensive and seemed that everyone was against my choice.

My Mom thought it was a bad choice, why would anybody who was so smart want to do that"? My dad said, "Why would you work in grease and sh*t for so little." - My dad was a heavy truck mechanic before he got into woodworking. Friends and nieghbors said that computers and electronics were the future and I shouldn't waste my time. You'll never make enough money to be really happy. Blah,blah,blah you choose the negative comment it was made.

So I joined the Air Force and went into electronics and worked on ground RADAR systems. Got out went to school for computers and made the move to being a computer tech in early 2000. Now I am a Network Technician. While the electronics/computer field has its challenges and the money is good, I do not find it to 100% fulfilling.

Though I tinker at home and have a Jeep that I am rebuilding, for the last few years I have wanted to take some classes for welding and machining so I could get my hands dirty again, refresh and learn new skills and maybe work part time somewhere in addition to my regular job.

There is no such luck, when I inquired about getting into those classes at the local tech school and local college they had quit offering their industrial arts classes.
I guess they had to make room for all the healthcare and computer courses they are offering.

Maybe another avenue of learning will appear.

So to another point, for all the young guys who haven't set on their career path yet: Do what makes you happy no matter what others say you should do. What you really like to do may not make you rich money wise, but at least it won't make you miserable.

Just my .02

YankeeMetallic
01-03-2006, 11:02 PM
I personally joined the army at 17 (1984) and stayed for 5 years getting volumes of life experience. I got out, worked some menial jobs for a year then got a job in law enforcement. I had no post H.S. education when I started. I finally got my bachelors degree from a California university about 10 years into the job. I needed the degree to get promoted. My degree cost me $17,000 total even after taking the first 2 years in junior college. It helped me build strong vocabulary, grammar, problem solving and public speaking skills. Other than that, I gained very little. Statistics arithmetic and Cartesian charts were a waste of time.
One huge problem with our country is the cost of continuing education. I think it is ranked in the top 10 serious problems with the United States' ability to remain competetive in the future world market. Getting into debt before you even hit the job market seems like the thing to do with young people in their late teens, early 20's.
I have twin sons that are 19 1/2. One is in a state university working part time, and relying on funds from a school loan. His education will cost him about $31,000. He needs an education to be competetive in the market place regardless of what he does. While I was the first in my family history to get a bachelors degree, the majority of youths are going into college right out of H.S. The drawback is when he graduates, he will have 6 months to find a job before he has to start making school loan payments of about $250 a month for 20 years.
My other son is in the 82nd Airborne. I preach to him that he should get his AA degree for free while in the army. He will also get $40,000 for college when he gets out after 4 years. All he is thinking about is chasing women with no plan or savings for when he gets out of the military.
I was hurt at work and was retired after just 15 years, so I work part time at home teaching myself to be a professional machinist. I have a considerable amount of fine machinery and tools I have been collecting over the years as a hobby. My boys have no interest in even looking at the machines or learning the trade. They just want to make money staring at a monitor and not getting their hands dirty. I told them my machinery and tools is my legacy, and while they may inherit them, they cannot sell them if I check-out early. If they don't want them then they have to give them to my family. They couldn't believe I would do that. I call it tough love. My opinion is to figure out how to solve problems in the shop, and it will help in solving problems in life.
I asked them recently what they want in life besides a family. They thought about it and couldn't give me an answer. These are the boys I taught to think and problem solve early in life. Our education system should delete the mandatory "Muticulturalism Awareness" class and replace it with a class that prepares them to go out into the job market and make a life-plan. Figure out what they are good at, what they want to do, give examples of what the job competition is in that job, what they will earn, and what college can offer them. They can call it, "Life plan and common sense". That would be better than remembering the Mexican Independence day that's already on the calendar.
Just my 3 cents (inflation you know).
Great topic, thank you.

Rustybolt
01-03-2006, 11:27 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:
Sounds like that "Day" is what they call Doomsday http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

I'd much rather see the Day when you just buy a "metal shop in a box". You plug it in, You stick raw material (powered steel for instance) in one end, search/pick from a list of 50 billion different parts that can be made, press the "go" button, and out comes the part(s) you requested. You buy/sell databases of parts.

-Adrian
</font>


MIT is working on the prototype. I kid you not.

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-03-2006, 11:33 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rustybolt:

MIT is working on the prototype. I kid you not.

</font>

Yup, I should go help them out.

BillH
01-03-2006, 11:46 PM
Computer, build me a Heckler and Koch MP5...
"Error, cannot complete request, this item is banned"
That would be my lifelong story if I was to live in the star trek universe. Ah i'd have to settle for the holo deck.

wierdscience
01-04-2006, 01:37 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by YankeeMetallic:
One huge problem with our country is the cost of continuing education. I think it is ranked in the top 10 serious problems with the United States' ability to remain competetive in the future world market. besides a family.
.</font>

Education is too expensive,the local junior college is still reasonable but the rest are overpriced IMHO.

The biggest problems I see in education are most schools teach people to work for someone else,that system and mind set breeds 40 hour a week cubical drones.
Another problem like you mentioned is all the PC/multiculturalism crap.If race really wasn't an issue there wouldn't be a box to check.
The final and worst is the lack of standardized testing in both students and professors.If you have to ake a standardized test to drive a car you should also have to do the same to teach or enter college.

Millman
01-04-2006, 03:01 AM
WS, got it right. I can't believe that some of these kids drive BMW's to their computer jobs and they still don't know how to check their oil LEVEL, much less how to change it! It's disgusting. How are they gonna' feel when their kids go out looking for a job; and they have to fill out applications in Chinese????? Pisses me off!

------------------
Dave da Slave

Rustybolt
01-04-2006, 07:07 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Millman:
WS, got it right. I can't believe that some of these kids drive BMW's to their computer jobs and they still don't know how to check their oil LEVEL, much less how to change it! It's disgusting. How are they gonna' feel when their kids go out looking for a job; and they have to fill out applications in Chinese????? Pisses me off!

I hope they get paid well. Because when something breaks, they won't know how to fix it.

</font>

bob308
01-04-2006, 09:45 AM
well my girlfriends boy is 17 just got his d-l. so far he has wrecked the blazer i bought her and then bruned up the heads when it over heated and he kept driving it. now we let him drive the old one to work but he is suppose to keep the oil checked. it is over filled right now.
he is talking about quitting his job right now because he did not get a raise. he as only been there 2 months.

BillH
01-04-2006, 09:52 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Millman:
WS, got it right. I can't believe that some of these kids drive BMW's to their computer jobs and they still don't know how to check their oil LEVEL, much less how to change it! It's disgusting. How are they gonna' feel when their kids go out looking for a job; and they have to fill out applications in Chinese????? Pisses me off!

</font>


Well with a BMW, some of them have body panels underneath that swing out so to make things easy your going to need a car lift.
My uncle has one, one he really cant afford but man that thing is fun as hell to drive on the highway. I'd sooner go with an airplane though.

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-04-2006, 10:09 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Millman:
I can't believe that some of these kids drive BMW's to their computer jobs and they still don't know how to check their oil LEVEL, much less how to change it! It's disgusting.</font>

I can't believe how many people use computers but have no idea how to design/develop software for them. It's disgusting http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian

snowman
01-04-2006, 10:32 AM
"I can't believe how many people use computers but have no idea how to design/develop software for them. It's disgusting"

Hey...I resemble that remark!

Spent two hours on QBasic last night :-D

gotta get Visual Studios!

-Jacob

SHOPA$$
01-04-2006, 10:44 AM
RANT ON:

In highschool I went the academic route, shop classes were mostly weed smoking, petty crooks, more annoying than dangerous, but would have been a waste of time. Family Was mostly coal miners, truck drivers, dock workers (all union jobs). Thought I worked in the steel mills and foundries. Figured the pattern shop would be the best place. But that was early 1980's. So I ended up in the infantry. Left the regular army a few years later. Went to community college, Mechanical Engineer Tech, thinking machine shop, drafting etc. would be a good place to find work. Then the first Gulf war screwed with that plan. State changed the "rules" to be a EIT/PE, was not grand-fathered because I was not a enrolled student at the time of the change. Came back, finished the Associates and my part time seasonal work became my full time job, for about 15 years. But the plant was bought and sold twice when I was mobilized et al.....Iraq. Dumped back state side. Spent the 24 months trying to kick against the bureaucratic and political inertia to get the younger troops what they need to go and what they deserve when they return. I retired from the Reserves effective 1 JAN 2006, 22+ years, because I can finially see the wheel moving, but I have spent all my energy and feel I would be a burden. I have been looking for a good job for several months, I don't want to hop from place to place, every month. Don't think my heath is good enough to "be my own boss", and right now my people skills have hit a all time low. I am not a good "multi-tasker". I haven't figured out what the empolyers want, applied for a cnc machinist position, ad said three months experience, went to the interview, Question I was asked had to do with snaking the drains!
So I am sitting there with a migrain (MED side affect), feeling the knot in my stomach untie, and my A$$ fall off thinking WTF, and I say "Sure, I can do that." Seems they want someone that they don't have to train.

RANT OFF

So who is going to Cabin Fever?

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-04-2006, 11:18 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by snowman:
Spent two hours on QBasic last night :-D

gotta get Visual Studios!</font>

Well, that's different then http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

You are well on your way to becomming part of the 1 in 20 club (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1550373/posts) http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif



[This message has been edited by 3 Phase Lightbulb (edited 01-04-2006).]

snowman
01-04-2006, 02:32 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060104/ap_on_bi_ge/chamber_worker_shortage

Adrian,

I'll probably just spend the rest of my life making sure that that 5 percent stays at 5 percent and doesn't go up!

Can't mess up the natural balance any more than it already is.

-Jacob

Evan
01-04-2006, 02:41 PM
Did you notice the price of oil yesterday? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Rusty Wrench
01-04-2006, 02:56 PM
I guess I am lucky, my son, a junior in college has worked outside every summer since he was fifteen, he is basically paying for his college (we help). He will grad with a degree in criminal justice and be a police officer. I am a retired Army Engineer working 6 years now in industrial maintenance and have my shop at home. I do feel proud of the young man. Oh, and he plays a mean guitar.

------------------
Russ Hobgood

Allan Waterfall
01-04-2006, 03:53 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:
I can't believe how many people use computers but have no idea how to design/develop software for them. It's disgusting http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian</font>

I can't believe how many people fly in planes but don't know how to design/develop jet engines,but I don't think it's disgusting. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Allan

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-04-2006, 04:11 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Millman:
I can't believe that some of these kids drive BMW's to their computer jobs and they still don't know how to check their oil LEVEL, much less how to change it! It's disgusting.</font>

I can't believe how many people use the Internet and still don't understand RFC793. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

spope14
01-04-2006, 10:00 PM
From a teacher of the trade. One thing mentioned was that the shop classes of old were filled with the pot smoking derelicts and petty thieves, thus not a good choice for many "respectable" students. This is still cyclical, this year I have a few more that I would like, but I still hold things tight enough that the little Juvenile Delinquient Bastar#@s do not make it past year one in my two year course - I am not the most friendly towards lowlife, though I do help many of these kids get over this as well. It hurts though when guidance cycles this population in when numbers get to be an issue, or a counselor changes and puts in the old stereotype.

I have great guidance counselors in my school for the most part though, but for one that needs an attitude adjustment (out of four).

next thing is the "Menu of Jobs" a kid has to chose from these days. For example, in my area machinists are high demand and hard to find, basic trained and good working machinists and entry level for the trade are sought and coveted. However, back to the menu. In our area, the unemployment is about 1%, though underemployment is high. The menu of jobs that are seeking good young people, and even re-training older people to meet employee shortages are as follows: Biotech, Nanotech, Health (Dartmouth Hitchcock needs good health care people from the CNA on up to Doctors), secretarial, Admin assistants, Physical Therapists, Child Care professionals. High tech meaning computers, networking, service, software, hardware. Plumbers, Builders, contractors, carpenters, HVAC. Restaurant and Tourism higher level jobs - especially for those who live in the area are plentiful - management trainable and long term - not the burger flipper. Ski lift and ski area technicians who are year round. Civil Jobs like roads and Public Works contractor people. Auto techs. Police and Fire department people. Precision woodworking and cabinetry - CNC Included.

Ours is a growing area. machining and manufacturing still is about 10,000 jobs in the area, still the largest overall employer for the region all said and done, but the other areas are growing quite fast.

A kid has a great many choices these days - the menu of jobs a kid can go into in our area is astounding, and has grown leaps and bounds in the last 5 to 7 years. What was once the predominent profession and "best job" is now just one of many choices.

This is our competition, this is the reality of the situation now. I get great support from the very top on down, but this is my new fight, to get kids to look at my area of job choice and training. It is not lazy kids, because many of these jobs have the same demands for brains and precision attitude as our profession does. The lazy kids do washes out of machining - but out of all the other things I mentioned as well.

It is my job to make this job look good and challenging, and I think I do well for what I have to fight. My kids who get by me do well 90% of the time, which I feel is good. The same goes for all the other professions listed that are taught or trained in our area. We all in the trades - plumbing, carpentry et all, have the same gripes, competition, and dilema - getting kids to look at us as a viable choice.

Our own area shops help us by having great bennies and work conditions at many of them, but also kill us with the other end of the spectrum of crap conditions and low pay. I have noticed it is the crap condition and low pay no benefit shops that complain the most about the situation to me, but my students do, after all, tend to look at the "better shops", they are not dumb after all.....

SHOPA$$
01-04-2006, 11:17 PM
spope14,

I hear you, but I live in the rust belt, and it has been oxidizing here for along time. A good friend of mine was a machine shop teacher at the boys "reform school", whatever the PC name for that place is I don't know. I used to give him tooling and scrap just to keep it going. When we returned from overseas this time they didn't want him back, so if "they" don't want the teacher, does anyone else employ the student?

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-04-2006, 11:38 PM
I just saw a show on PBS called "Is WalMart good for the Country" or something like that.

Anyone else watch it?

It was very interesting seeing and hearing both sides of the debate.

-Adrian

wierdscience
01-06-2006, 12:28 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:
I just saw a show on PBS called "Is WalMart good for the Country" or something like that.

Anyone else watch it?

It was very interesting seeing and hearing both sides of the debate.

-Adrian</font>

Ya,I saw it,pretty accurate on most counts.I do believe Wal-mart became more preditory after Sam Walton died and the kids/stockholders took over.

I know of two businesses that had Walmart contracts,both got burned.

I was suprised that PBS would actually bring up the Clinton trade deal that has lead to most of our trade imbalance with China.

I can also tell you that if you start looking you find that Clinton and his cronies sent a lot of pork Wal-mart's way,including an international airport in the middle of Arkansas.Walmart flys out chicken and fish,flys back tv's and electronics and the tax payers foot the bill.

Spin Doctor
01-06-2006, 09:59 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MTNGUN:
Our society looks down upon people who work with their hands. Parents want their kids to go to college and get a white collar job. I have nothing against college but nothing against learning a trade, either. </font>

Oh, I don't think that people look down on others that work with their hands. Or at least not entirely. If one is a machinist you in the minds of a lot of people you are simply letting the machine do the work. But if you are a woodworker then you are a craftsman par exelance. And look at all of the woodworking schools that are out there. Pick up a copy of Fine Woodworking and look at the number of furniture and turning schools that have adds in the back. Of course FW is rather elitist in some of their attitudes too (also when they discuss metal working they generally don't know their ass from a hole in the ground).

mochinist
01-06-2006, 01:42 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:
I can't believe how many people use computers but have no idea how to design/develop software for them. It's disgusting http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

-Adrian</font>
Your comment and snowmans sparked my interest so I googled QBASIC and found some tutorial pages. The tutorial said almost all computers have Qbasic already installed, but I couldn't find it. I am running XP on a fairly new pc, where should I look , I tried using the search under the start button but I got nothing. Thanks.

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-06-2006, 01:58 PM
I've never used Qbasic. If you actually want to program in basic, search the web for basicwnt.zip and download it. It's older than dirt and I like that better but I'm highly biased.

mochinist
01-06-2006, 02:22 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb:

I've never used Qbasic. If you actually want to program in basic, search the web for basicwnt.zip and download it. It's older than dirt and I like that better but I'm highly biased.</font>I don't know that I "want" to, it is just the name that snowman said and I searched for it. If there is language better for a noob I would try that.

BillH
01-06-2006, 02:37 PM
If your going to learn something, learn a object oriented language, I suggest Java. The SDK is a free download and you use a text editor to write the code. And when I say Java, dont think of it as a web only language, its not. Learn Java, C++ is very similiar, the only crap that makes no sense to me is programs written for windows, not a dos prompt, guess I can blame that on Bill Gates.

Evan
01-06-2006, 02:40 PM
You can download QuickBasic here:

http://qbnz.com/pages/downloads/software/

There are lots of different implementations of BASIC floating around. They all use a similar syntax but have different capabilities. They are all reasonably easy to use. BASIC stands for Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.

Qbasic is good because it has a huge amount of available online resources such as this page:

http://www.hitmill.com/programming/qbasic.html

SHOPA$$
01-06-2006, 03:04 PM
Guys your are scaring me http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

Do you think I should stop taking the slide rule out of my pocket protector when I interview for CNC or CAD type jobs http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//confused.gif?

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-06-2006, 03:14 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SHOPA$$:
Guys your are scaring me http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

Do you think I should stop taking the slide rule out of my pocket protector when I interview for CNC or CAD type jobs http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//confused.gif?

</font>


Nah you're fine.. It's best not to have any references to BASIC on your resume.

SHOPA$$
01-06-2006, 03:19 PM
DAMN http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

I have just finished printing out another batch while reading these posts http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

I was so looking forward to this weekend http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

Evan
01-06-2006, 03:22 PM
"I've never used Qbasic. If you actually want to program in basic, search the web for basicwnt.zip and download it. It's older than dirt and I like that better but I'm highly biased."

I thought that name looked familiar.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
NitrousBasic for DOS. A Basic interpreter/compiler that builds native 32-bit DOS .EXEs. OS/2 and Windows NT versions and source code also available. Author: Adrian J. Michaud
86 basicmsd.zip 274962 2-26-96

Nitrous/Basic 1.0 for DOS. A BASIC Interpreter/Compiler that builds native DOS EXEs. OS/2 and Windows NT versions as well as complete source code available. Shareware by Adrian Michaud


87 basicwnt.zip 87388 2-26-96 NitrousBasic for Windows NT. A Basic Interpreter/Compiler that builds native 32-bit Windows NT .EXEs. OS/2 and DOS versions also available. Complete Source code available. Lots of sample basic programs included. A great tool for multi-platform tools/utilities.

</font>

http://www.filelibrary.com/Contents/DOS/73/new.html

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-06-2006, 03:24 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SHOPA$$:
DAMN http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

I have just finished printing out another batch while reading these posts http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

I was so looking forward to this weekend http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

</font>

Putting BASIC on your resume would be like a Structural Engineer putting a reference to "Tinker Toys" on their resume http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

3 Phase Lightbulb
01-06-2006, 03:35 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
"I've never used Qbasic. If you actually want to program in basic, search the web for basicwnt.zip and download it. It's older than dirt and I like that better but I'm highly biased."

I thought that name looked familiar.

http://www.filelibrary.com/Contents/DOS/73/new.html

</font>

Yup, NitrousBasic is my implementation of BASIC. I hope people are still not sending registration checks to my old address http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Evan
01-06-2006, 03:36 PM
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

UIC COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING BUILDS BRIDGES

Tinker Toy Bridge-Building Contest: UIC students will apply their engineering know-how by building weight-bearing tinker toy bridges for prizes, Wednesday, Feb. 23, 11 - 2 p. m., Chicago Circle Center, Pier room, 750 Halsted St.
</font>

http://www.uic.edu/depts/paff/opa/releases/2000/eweek2000_release.html

SHOPA$$
01-06-2006, 03:38 PM
Double damn http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

SO the legos, and spin welder should go to?

My resume is getting pretty thin, with all my professional refences having passed away http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

Evan
01-06-2006, 03:43 PM
I used to use BASIC 8 on my C-128. It had a lot of nice graphics oriented extensions to Commodore Basic but was never that popular because it was slower than molasses. I rewrote most of it in hand optimized machine code.

That sped up some of the functions by several 1000 percent.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 01-06-2006).]

SHOPA$$
01-06-2006, 03:55 PM
Evan,

So I shouldn't list the VIC-20, C-64, or the C128 http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

But the trash 80 is still good, Radio Shack is still open right http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

No wonder I keep hearing that I am over qualified http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//rolleyes.gif

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

Evan
01-06-2006, 04:01 PM
Ever play a simple little game on the original Commodore PET or the C-64 called Dambusters?

SHOPA$$
01-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Evan,

Sorry, that is too OT for this thread, I'm taking my TI99 and going to another thread http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."