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jeastwood
10-14-2003, 09:31 PM
This is relevant to the recent request for downloadable steam engine plans:

Ever since seeing references to the book 'Elmer's Engines', and getting reprints of MODELTEC to have some of his steam engine designs, I've been looking for this book. It has 50 engine designs in it, plus an appendix full of other designs and shop tips. Extensive Web searches show no book stores having it, used or new. One site (adebooks.com) led me to an inter-library loan search, which show a handfull of libraries in the US that have a copy. Turned out it was as easy as having my local library ask for it (from the San Jose CA library system); 5 weeks later, it arrived.

Some folks have scanned book chapters or MODELTEC articles and posted them on some of the Yahoo machining sites; rummage around in the LittleEngines1 Files section for a couple of examples. I've seen a few other scans of Elmer's designs from time to time in various groups.

For more sources of downloadable engine plans, do some searching in the Yahoo groups.
There's are groups called STEAMENGINEPRINTS and plansandblueprints that have plans on line.

Here's the info if you want to try obtaining a copy of Elmer's Engines via inter-library loan:

Elmer's Engines
Elmer Verburg
ISBN 0-9621671-0-X
Old Orchard Publishing Service

JCHannum
10-14-2003, 10:55 PM
Anybody who is scanning Modeltec articles should have his ears handed to him. That is copywrited material. Many, if not all back issues are available from Modeltec. www.modeltecmag.com (http://www.modeltecmag.com)
They list several books by Ed Warren with plans and offer packages of back issues with plan series.
If people like Modeltec and our host, Home Shop Machinist, Machinist Workshop and Live Steam get ripped off by scanners, they will eventually fold up, and another great resource will be lost to us. Do your part and patronize the original authors.

[This message has been edited by JCHannum (edited 10-14-2003).]

jeastwood
10-15-2003, 06:24 PM
JCH: You'll note I didn't offer to scan anything and post it. Such is probably a violation of the "fair use" language of a copyright. As far as harm to the copyright holder: MODELTEC is apparently defunct; I haven't received an issue in over 6 months (which is a bit much for them, even given their irregular delivery schedule) and their web site is gone. That being said, I am NOT defending anyone's scanning of images and making them public.

What I'd LIKE to do is find who owns the publishing rights to Elmer's Engines (Orchard Press is apparently defunct too; not even Google can find any references to it) and find out how much capital would be involved in getting some printing house to run off a minimum order of books. Since our web host is in that business, I guess I'll start with Neil.

Cheers,

JCHannum
10-15-2003, 07:29 PM
jeastwood, sorry, I was not referring to you, just to people in general who feel it is ok to scan and upload copywrited material.
Too bad about Modeltec, I know they have been on hard times. I did access their site 3 times last night to verify the links in my postings, now I cannot access it.
It is a shame to have lost this resource to our hobby. First Strictly IC, now Modeltec.
All the more reason to patronize HSM etal.

jeastwood
10-15-2003, 08:54 PM
No problem, JCH. I didn't think you were trying to give me grief; I just wanted to make my position clear.

That's interesting that you were able to access the MODELTEC site so recently; I've tried periodically during the last few months with never any success. Perhaps they are still around, with server problems?

HSM and Machinist's Workshop are great magazines; it would be nice to think there is room for even more such publications. I'll subscribe to just about anything that will print interesting projects (I even tried some of the British mags for a while.)

wheatland47
10-16-2003, 06:51 PM
jeastwood:
how about an addy for STEAMENGINEPRINTS and plansandblueprintsonline ????

Rich Carlstedt
10-16-2003, 07:23 PM
I saw George Broad (Modeltec Editor)last April , and Modeltec was planning at that time to reprint the Verberg book.
I don't know what the situation is at this time, but hope they can do it.

Respect for copywrited material is expected from all, or as JCHannum put it, we will all lose.

jeastwood
10-16-2003, 08:43 PM
Sorry; figured all you guys knew how to get to the Yahoo groups. Here's how:

1) Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/

2) Type a name into the search field. Type in 'machining' and you'll get links to many of the machining related groups. Other useful keywords for searching out groups:
7x10, mill, lathe, Sherline.

3) Some groups are "Public", meaning you don't have to register in order to look at postings. Others you have to join, but this is free and not onerous. Make sure you choose your settings appropriately (no email, etc.)

Bills-Shop.com
01-23-2006, 04:11 PM
Hi, I too am looking for a copy of Elmer's Engines. I also started down the same path you did in looking for Old Orchard Publishing Service and finding that it is gone. I did a little hunting for elmer Verburg the author without luck. Can you tell me if you ever found a copy of the book? Did you have any luck in finding someone interested in reprinting it? Do you know of any way I can get a copy? Please email me at Bill@Bills-Shop.com. I'm not sure what a post to a thread this old will do. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you, Bill

PTSideshow
01-23-2006, 09:11 PM
Modeltec is gone as of last April. If you were a paid up subscriber you should have got a letter from federal court up in Milwacki last year. George was not only the editor but him and his wife owned the mag and publishing company.
Nation builder books
http://www.nbbooks.com/
You can contact them and see if he has any of the model tech stuff left.Bought all the books and disks with plans that george had. as of the last info I had all subcribers are out of luck as unsecured creditors. Problem with somebody buying and restarting Modeltech magazine they would have to pick up and honor all the magazine subscriptions outstanding. For good will and advert purposes, not because of any law. Modeltech and maybe George went bankrupt. The copyright laws have nothing to do with the magazine as such. but are money in the bank if somebody wants to reprint the articles in books form.


------------------
Glen
Been there, probally broke it doing that

George Hodge
01-23-2006, 09:20 PM
I ordered a copy of 'Elmer's Engines'at my local library through the inter-library-loan.The hard cover copy came from a library in Michigan. I could have it to read for 3 weeks and only cost me $3.00.It was worth much more!!

wierdscience
01-23-2006, 09:24 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by George Hodge:
I ordered a copy of 'Elmer's Engines'at my local library through the inter-library-loan.The hard cover copy came from a library in Michigan. I could have it to read for 3 weeks and only cost me $3.00.It was worth much more!!</font>

Your darn right it's worth more,about $392.00 more in fact!

Sticker shock in 5 4 3 2 ....

http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Elmer's_Engines-ISBN_096216710X.html?isrc=b-search


[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 01-23-2006).]

wierdscience
01-23-2006, 09:29 PM
Copyright law is a bit ludicris,once a book or magazine has been out of print for a few years it should be legal fair game.

Elmers engines is a good example of why,$395.00 a copy and it's not even the Magna Carta.

Peter S
01-23-2006, 11:15 PM
I copied about 50 "Elmers" plans a few years ago from a Yahoo group.

I would always prefer a book, but it was out of print, not available 2nd hand, and apparently worth a lot of money. Plus, they aren't that great anyway....

I downloaded those drawings with a clear conscience - what else can you do?

Mcgyver
01-25-2006, 01:21 PM
lots of laws are ludicrous, what you thought there was a connection between the law and right/wrong, morals, ethics, etc?

I wouldn't copy it if in print, not because of the copyright laws, but because it’s wrong to cheat the owner of the $$$. if it’s not a print, technically the copyright still applies and protects the material, which is still an asset of the owner. However if its not in print I’d be pretty Machiavellian about it and download it too – snooze you loose, sort of like a mining claim; work it or loose it.

Personally, if it’s long out of print and being shared on a hobby non-commercial basis, I fear neither falling asleep at night or the sanction of the law

Lee Paul
01-25-2006, 01:38 PM
I might be wrong (won't be the 1st or last time).........but I thought "ELMER" was dead. So much for cheating him of the $$$.

Granted, he might have some heirs, but maybe Old Orchard bought the rights to the book??

Anyway........"I've" got "MY COPY" of Elmer's Engines. If it's worth as much as some say.......I guess I'll just have to put it up on Ebay one of these days.

On the other hand.....in a 100 years it might be worth a lot more.......I think I'll just wait and see............

LP

applescotty
01-25-2006, 01:51 PM
I've got the Elmer's Engines book, picked it up at a used book store last summer. Anyway, I was less than impressed. I have never built a model engine, so take my views with the appropriate grains (or pounds?) of salt, but the engines seem more like "hardware store" engines, rather than nice models. They all looked like they were the first protoype of the engine that was just put together with what was around to see if it would work. I just thought they'd be prettier, I guess. Anyone else think the same thing, or should I just shut my trap?

applescotty

Weston Bye
01-25-2006, 03:01 PM
The first issue of Live Steam Magazine I ever purchased (back in the '70, I think)had one of Elmer's engines on the cover. Though not *perfect* models, they were something a beginner could understand and build and therefore, had value. Apparently, his designs still have some value, as witnessed by the current selling price of the book.

This may be a lesson for us long timers, old timers, professionals and perfectionists: Tolerate and accept some of the simpler projects in order to attract newcomers to the hobby or profession. This is the *Home Shop* Machinist BBS after all.

Wes

Michael Moore
01-25-2006, 11:22 PM
Sometimes I feel like a "Home Scrap Machinist". http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

cheers,
Michael

Mcgyver
01-25-2006, 11:38 PM
apples, on one hand I agree, on the other I remember my first project was a little bar stock engine and the first two pieces I bolted together gave as big a thrill as anything i've made since.

As my knowledge improved I got to the point were a bar stock engine didn't have much personal appeal, but Wes's point over rules that, its how much of a kick the builder gets out of it – ie if its got people interested in the hobby and in the workshop building skills, its all good…so maybe not for you or I, but to someone else it could be a great book

Orrin
01-26-2006, 08:46 AM
At first, I sorta turned my nose up at Elmer's designs, but then at PRIME and GEARS I saw some engines built from his plans. Boy, oh boy, was I ever wrong!

IMHO, no matter how simple the design, it will reveal the level of one's workmanship. I saw one of his engines built out of aluminum bronze and mounted on a beautiful wooden base and I was in total awe of the incredibly good workmanship.

The same can be said for his wooden flywheel engine. Done well, it is a thing of great beauty.

Regards,

Orrin

applescotty
01-26-2006, 09:35 AM
So, I guess I'll just blame my opinions on bad photos in the book. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Thanks for the different perspectives on this.

applescotty

JCHannum
01-26-2006, 10:02 AM
The plans by Elmer and to some extent many of Rudy Kouhoupt's are a good starting place for the builder.

They give a concept and general dimensions. The beginning builder can make a functional engine from them. The experienced builder can embellish them with different materials, level of finish or application, and create a very different product than the original.

A good example is the very nicely made Stirling tractor shown by Gary Hart a few days ago in this posting; http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//Forum1/HTML/014996.html

There is no law saying that plans such as this need to be slavishly followed. They were intended as a jumping off point. Feel free to add your own embellishments and create your own engine from the concept.