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railfancwb
02-24-2006, 04:00 PM
Anyone seen the program on Colombine HS murders? I saw it last night on one of those mid-two-digit channels...Discover, History, one of those. Don't know whether that was the first time it aired.

If it was accurately presented, those murdering boys had handguns, automatic weapons, and sawed off shotguns, as well as pipe bombs and other items of destruction. I somehow doubt that any of the weapons were acquired with regard to the existing gun control laws. Well, maybe the shotguns were legally acquired and then had the barrells and stocks sawed off.

I was flabergasted to learn that the police accumulated and waited outside for over three hours while the kids were being shot, and then -- knowing that the shooting was taking place in the library -- went into the building as far from the shooting as possible. One of the wounded teachers apparently bled out during this wait.

Charles

Your Old Dog
02-24-2006, 04:08 PM
That's a sore spot with me. People in need of help and you wouldn't be allowed into help if you wanted to. You'd be held outside in a "safe zone" while the hero's worked up enough courage to do what has to be done or else wait till they have every archetectual blueprint and every other shred of intel before anything could commence. What about the miners last month or Katrina before that.

Errol Groff
02-24-2006, 04:23 PM
As regards Katrina this months Popular Mechanics magazine has an interesting article that looks back and analyzes what actually happened, who did what and when etc.

Very interesting. It appears that most functions did quite well and the shortcomings were blown out of proportion by the media.

Just a thought.



------------------
Errol Groff

Instructor, Manufacturing Technology
H.H. Ellis Technical High School
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

New England Model engineering Society
www.neme-s.org

Doc Nickel
02-24-2006, 06:31 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by railfancwb:
If it was accurately presented, those murdering boys had handguns, automatic weapons, and sawed off shotguns, as well as pipe bombs and other items of destruction.</font>

-Then it wasn't accurately presented. They had a TEC-9 (a 9mm semiautomatic pistol notable only for it's "assault weapon" looks and 32-round magazine) and a shotgun that they had a friend buy at a gun show, and then sawed off.

Each may have had another pistol, I'm not sure.

What few people know is that they had previously placed several dozen homebrew bombs throughout the school the previous night. Wasn't it something like fifty-six? All made from blackpowder, propane cylinders, and wrapped with wire and nails.

Fortunately none of them went off, even though one of the murderers shot one in library at close range with the shotgun. This one, as I recall, was made of two 20-lb propane tanks.

Nobody talks about the bombs. None of them went off. But everyone talks about the guns, despite the fact that the two kids had already broken over a dozen laws before the shooting even started.

One must then wonder why it's thought a 13th law would have stopped them, when the first twelve didn't.

Doc.

Rustybolt
02-24-2006, 06:34 PM
This may come as a shock to many of you, but the police are under no legal obligation to risk their lives to save yours.The fact that many do says a lot for the charachter of the officers.
You can bet if any of them had children in that school they would have gone in.
There was a sheriffs deputy on school duty at the school and when the shooting started he ran three blocks to a public phone.
The parents of those two kids should be ashamed.

Wayne02
02-24-2006, 11:05 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by railfancwb:
I was flabergasted to learn that the police accumulated and waited outside for over three hours while the kids were being shot, and then -- knowing that the shooting was taking place in the library -- went into the building as far from the shooting as possible. One of the wounded teachers apparently bled out during this wait.
Charles</font>
We had a situation recently where there was an active shooter in a shopping mall. Leo had some contact with hostages via cell-phone so they knew the approximate location of the shooter.

They went in immediately and moved aggressively through the mall to corner and isolate the shooter and a handful of hostages he had acquired. They mentioned that it was new protocol after learnings from Columbine. They move in immediately, think on their feet and deal with the situation dynamically as it unfolds, as best they can.

This particular incident turned out with some injuries to hostages but no deaths as far as I remember. While it would have been bad if the shooter had killed the 6 hostages he managed to get. It could have been a whole lot worse if leo had not pinned him down and he had free reign of the mall.

As a side note to this particular incident. One of the hostages had a concealed pistol license and had a pistol on him. He drew his weapon and pointed it at the gunman (who was actively shooting people at the time) but didn't pull the trigger. Hoping this would cause the gunman to stop shooting.... big, big mistake on his part.

The gunman simply turned and shot the guy. The guy is now paralyzed from the waist down.

He said he thought the gunman would stop shooting, and said he didn't want to shoot the gunman because he was "just a kid" (gunman was 16 years old).

Millman
02-25-2006, 02:44 AM
Before I retired, a bomb threat in AR. State police asked for volunteers to go back in and check for the nook and crannies where a bomb could be hidden. Myself and one other machinist were the only ones to volunteer of 127 employees. State, County, Local Police stood outside and waited over one hour for us to emerge. Stood there like frightened children: they did give a thank you. I was not impressed with their bravery. NOW tell me once again of the local bravery? Those kids did what they did because they didn't have ME to bust their skulls apart like a GOOD parent would have. Look around: these kids are telling their parents and grandparents how they must obey at all times. Any child that steals or lies, Needs to be shot on sight. Why make the rest of society suffer?????? Sounds like some of you would defend your kids even if they attacked or raped older citizens. Common
sense will not defend an idiotic child!
------------------
BFH

[This message has been edited by Millman (edited 02-25-2006).]

J Tiers
02-25-2006, 09:11 AM
Police are "reactive". They act AFTER something happens.

And, police are concerend, as is ALL government, with the larger society, NOT with individuals specifically.

Government can, will, and MUST choose to let an entire town, let alone a few kids in a school, be shot, blown up, killed by disease, etc, etc, if that is the best way (in the view if the officials) to safeguard the larger society.

That is exactly how "eminent domain" works.... screw a few, for the benefit of the many.

And it SHOULD work that way.

There is no way that the government should run scared if you, or I or anyone else is held as a hostage..... "we'll shoot them if you don't give us back Hawaii and get out" (or whatever). Public policy and the public good are generally not served by caving to that sort of thing.

Police don't go in because they are not trained, they don't know where anyone is, etc, etc. Or because they don't want their head shot off.

Good thing, in a way. They probably would have shot the hostages and saved the perps, if they weren't trained well.

Might have been a huge police scandal over poor training and incompetent action, with dead hostages and police hanging themselves or just quietly going home and shooting themselves, after realizing that they had accidentally killed the neighbor kid.

[This message has been edited by J Tiers (edited 02-25-2006).]

Arcane
02-25-2006, 09:43 AM
As a side note to this particular incident. One of the hostages had a concealed pistol license and had a pistol on him. He drew his weapon and pointed it at the gunman (who was actively shooting people at the time) but didn't pull the trigger. Hoping this would cause the gunman to stop shooting.... big, big mistake on his part. Why the hell did this individual get a pistol and a concealed gun permit in the first place?? The only reason to carry a gun around in public is for protection and when it came to nitty gritty time, he folded. It might be hard to shoot somebody but if you are going to carry a gun, you batter damn well be sure you will if and when it becomes necessary. Looks like he was into the macho image of "Big Man with a Gun" more than the need for protection. Paralyzed from the waist down? I have no sympathy for him, just for the others shot after he could have dropped the shooter.

[This message has been edited by Arcane (edited 02-25-2006).]

Wirecutter
02-25-2006, 11:18 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Arcane:
It might be hard to shoot somebody but if you are going to carry a gun, you better damn well be sure you will if and when it becomes necessary. Looks like he was into the macho image of "Big Man with a Gun" more than the need for protection.</font>

I agree. I was trained for carrying a firearm, and the rules were very clear about this.

1. If you carry, you have to know in your heart that you will have to use your weapon. (If you soothe yourself with might use the weapon, you probably don't have the needed clarity in your intent)

2. You don't use your weapon in any situation other than one in which you need to shoot someone to keep some other life from being taken immediately.

3. (Most important) You don't point your weapon at anybody unless you intend to shoot them immediately.

Face it - you point a gun at someone, and if there hadn't been a "deadly force" situation, there is now. (What reason does the "pointee" have to believe that any action he takes will improve his chances of survival? Including trying to kill you?)

Yeah, it's unfortunate that the guy is now paralyzed, but it's also a textbook case of how to mishandle a gun. What an idiot.

rant off.

-M




[This message has been edited by Wirecutter (edited 02-25-2006).]

Wayne02
02-25-2006, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arcane:
[B][b] Why the hell did this individual get a pistol and a concealed gun permit in the first place?? [QUOTE]
Same reason many people get a permit and a gun, because they think that is all that is required for "self-protection". They focus on the "hardware", but neglect the software side of the question.

I spend considerable time on this issue in my classes. The proper gun, a permit, and marksmanship training are fine, but only part of the package. Not everyone is cut-out to carry a gun for self-protection, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I probably talk just as many people out of carrying as I do passing those who intend to carry.

wierdscience
02-26-2006, 10:42 AM
I was taught that if a situation is bad enough to warrant pulling a gun your next action is to take aim and squeeze the trigger,hesitation in that kind of situation kills.

In his defense thou,he may have had in the back of his mind a fear of the impending 43 week long TRIAL if he had shot the perp dead.

Gun control;
Favorite line from a movie envolves two homicide detectives discussing the case of a girl beaten to death with a pipe in Manhattan-

"geuss what we need next is a pipe control law"

bob308
02-26-2006, 10:59 AM
colombine and what jters said about letting the few die for the good of rest. makes one point bush was right to invade. better to fight them ther then here with cops that dont have to do any thing.

spope14
02-26-2006, 12:52 PM
There are so many urban legends about Columbine that I really do not even wish to hear them. many stories were also made up and now taken as gospel by many involved and interested since then.

here is the very sad fact of the matter. There had never been something like this before Columbine. A few school shootings, more than we would like - quite honestly, but individual and somewhat targeted events of a single crazed person with no real "plan". How does someone react to the unthinkable?

How many people have police Departments and Fire Departments that have since simulated a school "live fire incident"? Many have, I have been personbally involverd in three of these since Columbine - complete with flash bangs, simulated ammo, and storm troopers. One was done using the actual staff leveling on hand of the FD and PD, not with a pre-set-up overload of staff. There were also three "shooters", not the usual simulated "invisable" person. This was NOT in my home town, but in a district quite a ways from me where I volunteered to be for this exercise.

This can be quite an awakening. One with many students involved who volunteered, lasted 90 long minutes, and we had no plan but to be in our classrooms for the day, then at some point, the exercise starts - this "wait" was 2 1/2 hours, then all hell broke loose.

The next thing. The very first rule of rescue and securing any situation - Mountain rescue, chemical leaks, fire, criminal is this: Never create more victims through a lack of plan. You not only loose people who should not be lost, but also can cause more loss of life in the situation you are trying to prevent. You also divide resources.

Once again, our country had never seen this before. We have to have some fairness of thought here. it is so easy to second guess, and if this occurance were to happen again, I am sure things may come out different knowing what we do now.....or would it, man, how do you prepare?????

Yes, I teach in the public schools. If anybody thinks I do not have this basic thought of my personal security cross my mind, they are wrong.

Here it really is though. How does an untrained Police Force match up against a well thought out and very covert plan? The bottom line is this, the situation was tragically what it was. The loss of life so very sad. The people involved could only do what they could, and they most certainly dod not go in thinking that they should allow for more people to get shot and killed. They went in with good intent, with dedication. They went in knowing what they could. This was a horror that we all hope never gets repeated.

We can learn from mistakes, but I just can't bring myself to second guess.

barts
02-26-2006, 02:52 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">makes one point bush was right to invade. better to fight them ther then here with cops that dont have to do any thing.</font>

Bush was right to invade Iraq because of the Colombine
killings? Please - it's bad enough that Bush is torturing people, you don't have to go start torturing logic.

We are in Iraq because GWB and his neocon advisors dreamt of American control of the Middle East and secure access to Iraqi oil. It wasn't WMDs, it wasn't his "bringing them democracy with a bayonet" - and it certainly wasn't any sort of "shoot the terrorists in Iraq before we have to shoot them in our high schools". When we invaded Iraq, there were no terrorists there, just a strong man dictator ruling with an iron fist over an uneasy country artificially created by the British to control tribal power in the region.
I'm sure Saddam deserves his own special circle in hell, but
removing him from power without overwhelming outside force to control all of Iraq meant we pulled the pin on the Iraq grenade w/o holding onto the lever... and we can't put Iraq back together.

- Bart

spope14
02-26-2006, 03:44 PM
However in the he## that this degrades into a Bush and Iraq thing, I will never know.....

I guess my point was about Columbine. The only way to prevent (not stop all together, though as a teacher, this would be my dream) anopther Columbine is awareness of what started it all, what happened, and an assessment of mistakes and "could have should haves" for the future. These shows are good things when applied like this, and i believe I saw this, or another show like this.

This assessment is the only way you honor the vistims, not by second guessing or after the fact blame and second guessing.

I watched this entire event unfold on TV from start to finish. A friend of mine was one of the "print" reporters on scene, there to actually cover the Colorado Rockies. I had to teach a night class that evening, we instead watched this continue on - east coast - 5:30, the time in Colo was 3:30. Class dismissed early.

My personal ties to Columbine are too colse to fairly discuss in this forum to be honest, thus my second entry into this topic. It took years for me to develop my point of view of looking at the events rather than blame......

Iraq and Bush? how does one even get this in this discussion? Does not belong, not proper string of discussion for this stuff

[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 02-26-2006).]

chief
02-26-2006, 04:22 PM
Barts,
You are a moron with regard to Columbine and Iraq.

TECHSHOP
02-26-2006, 08:58 PM
Beslan

------------------
Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there no sweeter words than "I told you so."

wierdscience
02-26-2006, 10:54 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by barts:
Bush was right to invade Iraq because of the Colombine
killings? Please - it's bad enough that Bush is torturing people, you don't have to go start torturing logic.

- Bart</font>

Hahahahahahahaha......STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD AND PUT THE CRACKPIPE DOWN! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

wierdscience
02-26-2006, 10:57 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by barts:

We are in Iraq because GWB and his neocon advisors dreamt of American control of the Middle East and secure access to Iraqi oil.
- Bart</font>

It's TERRORISM STUPID........Hahahahahahahaha....still laughing! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

barts
02-26-2006, 11:10 PM
chief said
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> You are a moron with regard to Columbine and Iraq.</font>

That's a fine ad-hominem argument, but I don't have any idea what you mean except that you disagree with something I said. You'll need to go into a little more detail if you want to get your point across.

I didn't say anything about Columbine other than that's not why we're sending our kids to Iraq; do you seriously think that we deposed Saddam because he had secret plans to attack American high schools? In that case, would you like to buy some more tin foil for your hat?

Techshop:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Beslan</font>

If we lived right next to Iraq (the school they attacked was about 100 miles across the border) I might worry about this now that we've really pissed everyone there off. Before our attacking Iraq - no way was this a credible concern. It still isn't given the distance.

wierdscience:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">PUT THE CRACKPIPE DOWN!</font>

I'll let you know that's single malt scotch, not a crack pipe.

tattoomike68
02-26-2006, 11:27 PM
barts, dont be a troll.

bob308
02-27-2006, 05:41 AM
no weird it is not dope. and get it right what i said. now for what i the way i should have said it.
those kids where noting more then terrorist. and if no one holds the cops liable for their actions there. then we are better off using the army in iraq to stop then relingon the cops here.

Alistair Hosie
02-27-2006, 06:12 AM
Iraq had b nothing to do with terrorism Darin and you know that Alistair

barts
02-27-2006, 11:06 PM
I don't think I'm a troll, but on second thought I did respond to
a post that was a troll. I have very little patience with
people making stuff up, I guess.

Sorry - I won't feed the trolls again.

- Bart