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HTRN
08-17-2001, 04:09 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IOWOLF:
Yea ,you can be fascinated with them till you have to work on one,Oh and you better invest in Oil dry stock.</font>

Truer words were never spoken.


HTRN

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This Old Shed (http://thisoldshed.tripod.com)

slayer666
08-17-2001, 04:11 AM
Do you guys know of any screw machine shops near Greenfield, Indiana?

[This message has been edited by slayer666 (edited 08-17-2001).]

slayer666
03-02-2006, 11:43 AM
Does anyone know what the smallest screw machine ever commercially manufactured is? Pics?

Mark McGrath
03-02-2006, 01:36 PM
Peterman springs to mind as they had a 5mm capacity machine,possibly a smaller version.
Escomatic would be even smaller but worked of coil.Traub,Index,Bechler and Citizen might be candidates.
regards,Mark.

DR
03-02-2006, 01:52 PM
I once saw a very old bench top sliding headstock (Swiss) screw machine. It's been so long ago to remember exactly, but I believe it was an Amereican made machine.

Less the motor (line shaft) it looked like something 2 guys could pick up.

This was part of a lobby display of a bolt company.

tattoomike68
03-02-2006, 01:56 PM
swiss turning machines will do some realy small work, some have spindles that run 9,000+ rpm.

many screwmachine shops do not care to run stock under 3/16" or 5 mm. so they pass the job on to shops with swiss machines. They tell you to run your wire some place else.

SGW
03-02-2006, 02:00 PM
The machines used by J.I.Morris http://www.morris01550.com/ must be pretty dern small, as the largest screw they can make is 2-56.

HTRN
03-02-2006, 02:22 PM
I know for a fact that Citizen now makes a CNC swiss machine with a 4mm - I was standing next to it when I went for my B series maintanance certification.

9000 rpm is no big thing - the B5 I ran went to 12K and we used 11K as the default when doing 2 mm stock.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/HTRN/wireguides.jpg

The "thick" one is 3mm http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif


HTRN

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This Old Shed (http://thisoldshed.tripod.com)

slayer666
03-02-2006, 03:04 PM
The reason I asked is that I am looking for a small screw machine to screw (no pun intended) around with. The reason I need it to be small is that I am very limited in terms of space in my garage. I don't really need one, but would like to have one if I can one small enough.

slayer666
03-02-2006, 03:07 PM
DR,

Do you remember what the name of the bolt place is that you mentioned? Are they still in business? Contact info?

.RC.
03-02-2006, 04:07 PM
Someone with their mind in the gutter could have lots of fun with this question about screw machines and size...

Rustybolt
03-02-2006, 04:21 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ringer:
Someone with their mind in the gutter could have lots of fun with this question about screw machines and size...</font>

(sarcasm on)No kidding? What an original idea.(sarcasm off)


Mark. Peterman was came to my mind too.There was a swiss shop in Elgin IL. that I visited once. 10,000 screws filled up 1/3 of a coffee can.


Slayer. any small swiss screw machine is going to have a footprint about the size of an office desk.

chado
03-02-2006, 04:23 PM
slayer666
The smallest Peterman that I have seen and run was 4mm. Strohm also made a 4mm. machine. Don't recall anything smaller than that. I whould not think of running a Escomatic in a garage to much oil mist to control. To do it in a garage you could cut the feed tube to use 6 foot bars as 12 foot is the normal length used. Don't know how much you know about Swiss Screw machines but it is a machine that takes some time to learn. I have been at it with Swiss Screw machines now for 38 years now. The last 18 years on Star CNC machines and still don't know it all. Good luck with whatever you do.

IOWOLF
03-02-2006, 04:33 PM
A brownie(B&S) A is about the size of a cedar chest Footprint but taller not counting the bar feeder.

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The tame Wolf !

slayer666
03-02-2006, 04:40 PM
I'll give you a little background info on myself. I am a senior at Greenfield Central High School in Greenfield, Indiana. I am training to become a machinist. I am fairly new to screw machining (read never operated one).

slayer666
03-02-2006, 04:42 PM
IOWOLF,

Any particular B&S machine I should keep an eye out for?

DR
03-02-2006, 05:44 PM
"Do you remember what the name of the bolt place is that you mentioned? Are they still in business? Contact info? "

Slayer',

It was Northwest Bolt in Seattle. Long gone. I didn't even attend their auction.

In recent years they'd morphed into construction fasteners and other "crude" type bolts compared to what they'd made on the little screw machine.

You might consider one of the smallish Traub machines, A15, A25. 15&25mm capacity respectively. They're about as small (foot print and weight)as you'll easily find on the market.

Some guys have mentioned the small capacity Swiss machines. They may be small capacity, they aren't necessarily physically small though.





[This message has been edited by DR (edited 03-02-2006).]

slayer666
03-02-2006, 06:57 PM
DR,

Do you know who the machine that they had in their lobby was manufactured by?

[This message has been edited by slayer666 (edited 03-02-2006).]

slayer666
03-02-2006, 07:11 PM
Can any of you guys recommend any good books to read to educate myself about screw machining operations and maintenance, or just screw machining in general?

Rustybolt
03-02-2006, 07:19 PM
B&S 00 (double ought)

You want the B&S book on cam making, the blue one.

slayer666
03-02-2006, 07:22 PM
Rustybolt,

Where can I get a copy of that book and how much does it cost?

HTRN
03-02-2006, 07:39 PM
Well, if you're looking to buy something to learn, forget the CNC swiss machines - they're a bloody fortune, even used. New, the prices start at a hundred grand and quickly skyrocket.

Used cam machines generally wind up as scrap - nobody wants them. That's probably you're best bet for getting one cheap. The kind of jobs that they do best(long run, simple, loose tolerance work, low strenght/high machinability) were one of the first things to go offshore. The few screwmachine shops that still run cam machines have juicy contracts, generally with the DOD for some simple doodad that is required in quantity. They generally pay like crap as the real skill with these machines is making the cams.

As for making jokes about "screw machines", I casually mentioned that my last job was running a "Citizen screw machine", that got the response of "that's the perfect name for the DNC!" http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif


HTRN

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This Old Shed (http://thisoldshed.tripod.com)

.RC.
03-02-2006, 07:42 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rustybolt:
(sarcasm on)No kidding? What an original idea.(sarcasm off)


</font>


Can't help it if you don't have a sense of humor...


[This message has been edited by Ringer (edited 03-02-2006).]

slayer666
03-02-2006, 07:51 PM
HTRN,

I was only considering the cam machines, as I had a feeling that I couldn't afford a CNC machine. I'm a paperboy(kinda pathetic, ain't it, at 18 years old), and if I'm lucky, I make $2500 a year, so I don't often have a lot of money to spend. I don't have a lot of room in my garage, and my parents don't want to drag home some huge machine that is going to take up a lot of space, so it not only needs to be small size-wise, it also needs to be lightweight(under 1000 pounds) and CHEAP. I also only have 110v 20-amp power in my garage, so it would also have to be capable of running on that or be capable of being modified to run on my available power. I'm thinking that my hopes may be somewhat unrealistic.

slayer666
03-02-2006, 07:54 PM
Who are the best sources for screw machine parts and tooling? I'm looking for companies that specialize in screw machine tooling and parts?

tattoomike68
03-02-2006, 09:34 PM
Ok, there is what is called a "second operation" lathe that gets called a screw machine, they have a cross slide (not shown in picture) and a rear turret, At the shop we have one thats a hardinge knock off that was found used for $300. It takes 5c collets.

that may be a perfect place to start.

It will make bushing, studs,,,,

here is a basic one

http://www.pennohiomachinery.com/HardingeDSM-59Lathe.jpg

[This message has been edited by tattoomike68 (edited 03-02-2006).]

slayer666
03-02-2006, 09:52 PM
If I were to get a B&S 00, what accessories should I keep an eye out for? Should I get a 00 or 00G? I did some research, and this machine looks like it would be almost perfect. It's going to take a hell of a lot of work to convince my parents to let me drag one of these home, though. Any advice on how to go about doing that? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif Also, could I make the bar feed any shorter than 6 feet? Or for that matter is the bar feed even necessary? Is there any other way to feed stock to the machine that doesn't occupy so much room? Just how much noise do these machines make? Would they disturb my neighbors? How much should I expect to spend on tooling to start out? Does B&S make a machine smaller than the 00 or 00G? Sorry about asking so many questions in one post.

chado
03-02-2006, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by HTRN
(Used cam machines generally wind up as scrap - nobody wants them.)(simple, loose tolerance work)

Got 2 Star SJ8 cam machines 3 years ago and have made my investment back with the first job I did on them and it was not a simple, loose tolerance job. Machines are still running today.

slayer666
I know that you will not find a screw machine under 1000 pounds. My Star machines are around 1400+ lbs. and my Strohm M125 is 2000 lbs. I whould think it would be best for you to try and get a job in a job shop that whould be willing to train you on how to setup and run machines if there are any in your area.
You also said (my parents don't want you to drag home some huge machine that is going to take up a lot of space) then don't tell them about the cutting oil that will splash on the floor. 110v 20-amp power will not do you will need 220V 30-amps. and a phase conveter as screw machines run 3 phase.
Don't give up on your hopes not being realistic. With the right training you can do anything. When I was your age I was in the US Army in Germany, there was a cook in the unit that went back to school when he got out then joined the Navy and wnet to flight school and retired as a Wing Commander. That is way I say With the right training you can do anything.

slayer666
03-02-2006, 10:02 PM
about how much does a B&S 00 weigh? What are the differences between it the 00 and the 00G?

Joel
03-02-2006, 10:09 PM
I’m sure you will get all of your questions answered eventually, but I am supposing that most of us are still trying to figure out exactly why you would want a screw machine in the first place.
As HTRN explains, they are special purpose machines made for very large runs of parts. I would guess that you will be WAY better off finding a small lathe and playing around with that for awhile.

slayer666
03-02-2006, 10:10 PM
I've already got a lathe. I've got a Micro-Mark 7x14.

slayer666
03-02-2006, 10:16 PM
I guess part of the reason I want one is that I'm just plain fascinated by them. I have been fascinated by them for quite some time. I don't really need one, but it would be neat to have one (I'm willing to bet you guys think that sounds retarded). Where can I get a copy of that B&S book on cam making? Did they publish any other books on screw machining? Where can I buy a copy of these books?

Joel
03-02-2006, 10:25 PM
Not exceedingly practical maybe, but not retarded. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
They are neat machines, but fulfilling a need and staying within the limits of available space and budget has dictated the contents of my shop.

Have you tried to use Google to find the book?

slayer666
03-02-2006, 10:26 PM
Is it one of these books: http://hillsgun.com/shopping/brownsharpe.htm

[This message has been edited by slayer666 (edited 03-02-2006).]

gmatov
03-03-2006, 12:07 AM
Look here, if you simply want ANY screw machine to begin with.

http://www.astratool.com/machines/ph4232.htm

http://www.astratool.com/machines/m3105.htm

http://www.astratool.com/machines/ph2359.htm

Cheers,

George

Google: Used lathes

ARFF79
03-03-2006, 01:13 AM
WARNING: Long Post

The difference between a Model OO,O,& 2, and a Model OOG, OG,& 2G depends upon the year of manufacure. The "G" stands for ground drive, and was used to identify if the machine was a line drive or motor driven for those made prior to 1945. In the mid to late 1950's, after a redesign, they returned to the OO,O,& 2 designations dropping the "G". These machines are known as Square Base or Push-Button machines. In the 1960's they were again reworked into what are known as the Ultramatic Machines. These bring the most money as they are the newest machines with more bells and whistles, ansd greater spindle capacity.

I have a small pre-war line drive OO that was driven by an overhead motor unit called a Lima Drive. It weighs less than 1000 pound and takes up an area of about 4x3 feet including the drive off of the back. Since you need to access all areas around the machine for daily maint. and to do set ups, you need to allow for the space your body takes up as well, so figure on 6x 6 to be safe. The spindle capacity of this machine is 3/8" round max. An OOG would be 1/2" round max. You could concievably use it for bar stock without the bar feed by using 2 foot long pieces, but that would defeat the purpose of the machine. The size parts that a machine of this size runs would cycle too fast to be worth it. You would always be stopped to replace the stock. For example. I had a job for some spacers made out of 1/4" pipe. I would go through a 10' stick every 5 minutes. It was a simple push/stop-part opperation and made a part every 3 seconds. If you set it up for a magazine fed chucking job though you would not need the bar feed, but you would need a special feed for the rear cross slide and a source of parts needing a second opperation for it to be worth the tooling.

They made a click-chunk sound as they index the turret and opperate the collet chuck. The stock rattles in the bar feed and in the feed tube. They throw cutting oil(preferably the pipe threading type and not the water based soup) around and it smokes from the cutting action (this is why newer machines are enclosed). Turret tooling can be had at bargin prices on eBay, collets and feed fingers are a bit more pricey. The real cost is in buying or making the cams. Until you have a very large collection of them, you are going to have to make a set for each job you run. After you have enough, you can find a set that is close enough to the part that they can be made to work.

If you want to get into production type work, look for a hand screw machine such as the one pictured earlier,or trye to find a bed turret for your bench lathe. It will keep your folks happy that way.

slayer666
03-03-2006, 01:32 AM
tattoomike68,

Would it be possible to later convert a lathe like the one you showed to operate similar to an automatic? Do you know of anyone who has done this?

Millman
03-03-2006, 01:51 AM
Proud to see a young guy interested in the complexities of screw machining. I was 18 when I fell in love with screws. Nothing like it! Complicated and relaxing at the same time. You will learn so much on the Multi-Spindles you will never have to ask any questions such as ----tool height, RPM,pressure, speed and feeds, cam configuration , drill and tap size and ALL tolerances and fits! Get in a good screw machine shop and you will live and breathe it. Everything else will come easy, since some tooling has to be hand ground and stoned. If you get the chance; set up and run Guildemeisters; 6-8 spindles.

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BFH

IOWOLF
03-03-2006, 05:54 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by slayer666:
I guess part of the reason I want one is that I'm just plain fascinated by them. I have been fascinated by them for quite some time. I don't really need one, but it would be neat to have one (I'm willing to bet you guys think that sounds retarded). Where can I get a copy of that B&S book on cam making? Did they publish any other books on screw machining? Where can I buy a copy of these books?</font>

Yea ,you can be fascinated with them till you have to work on one,Oh and you better invest in Oil dry stock.
IMHO



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The tame Wolf !

Millman
03-03-2006, 06:11 AM
Iowolf, go easy on the guy. Multi-Spindles seperates the Men from the Boys in about 1 hour. Either you got it or you will walk out, totally intimidated with your tail between your legs. If you do not get massively injured within 2 yrs. , it's one of the most enjoyable experiences; sometimes better than SEX when you set-up and watch them run, sometimes for 2 days holding tight tolerances if you grind your tooling correct. Sometimes; it's better than *****! Relax

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BFH

DBW
03-03-2006, 07:05 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by slayer666:
Does anyone know what the smallest screw machine ever commercially manufactured is? Pics?[/Q

Screw machines are dead as a dodo. NCR had one of the largest B&S shops in the world with over 100 machines. Actioned them all off and went to solid state designed office machines.
Why not put steppers and cnc control on your
lathe and play with something new and learn
G code.




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Rustybolt
03-03-2006, 10:56 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DBW:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by slayer666:
Does anyone know what the smallest screw machine ever commercially manufactured is? Pics?[/Q

Screw machines are dead as a dodo. NCR had one of the largest B&S shops in the world with over 100 machines. Actioned them all off and went to solid state designed office machines.
Why not put steppers and cnc control on your
lathe and play with something new and learn
G code.


</font>


That would be my recomendation. But if he's got his heart set on it, go for it. He should be able to get a 00 fully tooled and ready to go for less than $1000. The fascinating thing about them for most people is how interconnected everything is. After you rebuild a few of them the facination tends to dissappear.

Can't help it if you don't have a sense of humor...


Sorry, but you would not believe how many times I've heard every permutation of 'screw machine'

tattoomike68
03-03-2006, 11:26 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by slayer666:
tattoomike68,

Would it be possible to later convert a lathe like the one you showed to operate similar to an automatic? Do you know of anyone who has done this?</font>


No I dont think it would be worth doing,by the time it was all rigged up you can get a cnc lathe for less cost. A cnc can cut complex shapes where as with a screw machine tooling cost are insane. to tool up a screw machine it is best to have a surface grinder and a wire edm.$$$$$$$$$$$$$

here are some videos of a fine little cnc that can be set up to very automatic.
A used omni-turn that has made millions of parts can be found cheap, repace the ball screws and run the hell out of it.
http://www.omni-turn.com/Pages/Videos/Video%20page.html

DR
03-03-2006, 11:45 AM
I have to differ with tattoo' on this. Omni-turns can not be picked up for anywhere near the price of a screw machine.

I bought a couple B&S's a few years ago for $100 each. Tooling would be, maybe, $200 to get a good start.

An Omni-turn will run in the $15K+/- range.

Millman
03-04-2006, 12:49 AM
Hell, anyone can be a " qualified " machinist with the acute ability to push a start button! I've talked to those guys who wouldn't have the slightest idea how to make a part on a manual machine; but they are called "machinists". You have to laugh in their face!

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BFH

BudB
03-04-2006, 08:19 AM
I grew up in a screw machine shop with Davenports and B&S's in Indy. I've been gone a long time, shop has been sold, but I can still smell the "oil" and hear the rattle of the machines.

Evan
03-06-2006, 10:59 AM
bump