build steam engines

[dbasberg]

I am interested in learning to build 1-9 HP steam engines from scratch. Yeah, I hope to learn enough to design them. I am an electrical engineer that spent a career working on computerized realtime control systems. The sensors and actuators were out interfacing with the real world so I have been around mechanisms more than many electricals. I am a novice home shop machinist. Really, I am learning maching and steam engines concurrently...great fun! I hope to meet some others that I can ask questions about making steam engines and handle maching challenges. Many lawnmower engines are aluminum pistons and cylinders (I prefer cast iron...cause I have some that are going strong after 20 years). Has anyone experience with aluminum in steam engines? How about cylinders and pistons from mild steel...O.K. or rust too easily? I want to use my steam engines for real work and making 'showy' engines is not my goal... a cylinder and valve body in a block of steel is fine with me...if I can get the steel from my friendly local scrap dealer for $0.15 per pound (& I can). Looking forward to developing some friendships with this common interest http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif.

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Doug Basberg
Independent Engineering
Consultant

[RonGinger]

Have a look at http://hasbrouck.8m.com This is the web site for Ray Hasbrouck where he sells a series of plans for steam engines built from bar stock- no castings. His plans are very inexpensive- most under $20. Some are models but a couple are big enough to push 17-20ft steam boats. Ray was an engineer in WWII on Liberty Ships and has been an active modeler all his life. He knows steam from way back.

[dbasberg]

Ron; THANK YOU SO MUCH!!
Hasbrouck is just what I wanted. I will order the prints for his larger engines. What a great learning tool that will be. I found no other info on the web about building larger steam engines without casting.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RonGinger:
Have a look at http://hasbrouck.8m.com This is the web site for Ray Hasbrouck where he sells a series of plans for steam engines built from bar stock- no castings. His plans are very inexpensive- most under $20. Some are models but a couple are big enough to push 17-20ft steam boats. Ray was an engineer in WWII on Liberty Ships and has been an active modeler all his life. He knows steam from way back. </font>



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Doug Basberg
Independent Engineering
Consultant

[FLPR@juno.com]

Seveal years ago I was involved in a research project to find a dry bearing material that would work for high RPMs in a steam environment. One of the things we wanted to try was carbide, so we got a carbide scriber tip that was mounted in aluminum. When we took it out of the pot, the aluminum had become a ceramic with a diameter about 3 times its original diameter.
This was steam at 600* F. I am a retired mechanical engineer with many years of experience in instrument development.

[metal mite]

Aluminum is generally unsuitable for moving, sliding, rotating parts.
Just this a.m. a fello machinist galled two threaded aluminum parts togather scraping both.
Anodize and martin hard coat finishes can
greatly improve it's suitability.
I believe in ww2 aircraft engine bearings were martin hardcoated aluminum.
metal mite

[dbasberg]

That is a surprising result...ceramic like with such expansion...I think I'll avaoid aluminum for cyl/pistons. Your instrumentation expertise is interesting. I want to automate my boiler/engine and need to have pressure transducers that handle 350 psi & 350 F and are inexpensive. So far the best price I found was $300 for a stainless steel unit. If such a controller could be made cheap enough it might serve hobbyists or people using steam power for off grid applications. Any suggestions about sensors/actuators? I hope to inject water into the monotube boiler under microprocessor control.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FLPR@juno.com:
Seveal years ago I was involved in a research project to find a dry bearing material that would work for high RPMs in a steam environment. One of the things we wanted to try was carbide, so we got a carbide scriber tip that was mounted in aluminum. When we took it out of the pot, the aluminum had become a ceramic with a diameter about 3 times its original diameter.
This was steam at 600* F. I am a retired mechanical engineer with many years of experience in instrument development. </font>

[dbasberg]

I wonder what type of aluminum Briggs and Straton uses in their lawn mower engines with aluminum cylinders and pistons?


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by metal mite:
Aluminum is generally unsuitable for moving, sliding, rotating parts.
Just this a.m. a fello machinist galled two threaded aluminum parts togather scraping both.
Anodize and martin hard coat finishes can
greatly improve it's suitability.
I believe in ww2 aircraft engine bearings were martin hardcoated aluminum.
metal mite</font>

[FLPR@juno.com]

I have worked on pressure sensors for extreme environments for many years. One of my last projects was a pressure sensor 3/4" long with a 1/2" diam. to operate in the core of a nuclear reactor at 1300*F. If you would like some suggestions contact me by email. My member ID is my email address.

[metal mite]

dbashberg,
Don't know what they use for cylinders + pistons.
Machinerys handbook lists sae 770,780 781 782 as bearing materials.
They are al-sn cu ni si cd alloys of various
mixtures.
They are usually bonded to steel backing strips sometimes with some overlay.
Later it says alloy 319 and 333 are used for engine parts.
They are 3.5 and 3.8 % copper and are casting alloys.

I learn something every day.

That 6061 T6 we use isn't worth much rubbing on itself. We have constant problems with it.
Thank you
Mite

[charlie coghill]

Hi dbasberg:
I have completed a 1/4 scale Case Steam tractor and just completed a 3X5X4 piller steam engine which will be used in a 24 foot boat. The cylinders are made from castings, which are no longer available. The crank is built up from bar stock. If you think that I might be able to help you, feel free to contact me. Charlie.

[dbasberg]

Hi Charlie
The crank you made up interests me. What alloy did you start with and how did you heat treat it? How many horsepower do you estimate for the 3X5X4? What size was the crank shaft and how big a flywheel did you use? What are you doing for a boiler in your boat? Guess I should let the questions go at that for now. As you can see, I am interested.
TIA
Doug

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by charlie coghill:
Hi dbasberg:
I have completed a 1/4 scale Case Steam tractor and just completed a 3X5X4 piller steam engine which will be used in a 24 foot boat. The cylinders are made from castings, which are no longer available. The crank is built up from bar stock. If you think that I might be able to help you, feel free to contact me. Charlie.</font>

[charlie coghill]

dbasberg:
It would be better that I E-mail you and tell you how I accomplished building the crankshaft. The story would be pretty long for this BB.

The engine hopfully will develope about 10 hp at 125 PSI

The crankshaft is 1 3/8 OD. It started out as 1 5/8 inch cold rolled shafting. By the time the shaft is turned down leaving an area on the outside of the crankdisk and between the crankdisk for a center bearing the shaft finishes out at the 1 3/8 diameter.
I did not do any heat treating on the crank as the engine will probly not exceed 400 rpm.

The diameter of the fly wheel is 9" and 2.5" thick. The pistions are made of castiron and are 1' thick. Each piston has two rings on it.

The boiler is a modified Roberts type with 40 sq ft. of heating surface and 12" X 23" of grate. If you are interested I have taken a lot of pictures of this project so I can remember how to do this again if I get the fancy to do another engine and boiler.

[dbasberg]

Please do e-mail Charlie dbasberg@arczip.com . That is quite an engine you have made. Do you have your pictures on the web somewhere? I would like to see some pictures.
Thanks
Doug

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by charlie coghill:
dbasberg:
It would be better that I E-mail you and tell you how I accomplished building the crankshaft. The story would be pretty long for this BB.

The engine hopfully will develope about 10 hp at 125 PSI

The crankshaft is 1 3/8 OD. It started out as 1 5/8 inch cold rolled shafting. By the time the shaft is turned down leaving an area on the outside of the crankdisk and between the crankdisk for a center bearing the shaft finishes out at the 1 3/8 diameter.
I did not do any heat treating on the crank as the engine will probly not exceed 400 rpm.

The diameter of the fly wheel is 9" and 2.5" thick. The pistions are made of castiron and are 1' thick. Each piston has two rings on it.

The boiler is a modified Roberts type with 40 sq ft. of heating surface and 12" X 23" of grate. If you are interested I have taken a lot of pictures of this project so I can remember how to do this again if I get the fancy to do another engine and boiler.</font>

[charlie coghill]

Hay Doug: hope you received the E-mail. It did not want to work or maybe it was operator error.

[John Stevenson]

Doug,
Have a look for a book called Machine Drawing and Design by a guy called D.A.Low
Published by Longmans. Well out of print but http://www.abebooks.com are showing 25 copies of it.
In the back of this are the complete working drawings for a full sized triple expansion engine made by Simpson, Strickland and Co., Dartmouth, England.
Details are HP Cylinder 3.5", MP cyl, 5.25" and low Pressure 8"

Just thought it might be a good engine to scale down?

I could scan the drawings if there was sufficient interest.

John S.

[Thrud]

John Stevenson:
Thanks for the URL to the bookstore - I owe you another tall cool frosty!
Dave

[dbasberg]

Thank you John. I especially appreciate good sources of books. That often pays dividends for many interests and many years.
Doug

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by John Stevenson:
Doug,
Have a look for a book called Machine Drawing and Design by a guy called D.A.Low
Published by Longmans. Well out of print but http://www.abebooks.com are showing 25 copies of it.
In the back of this are the complete working drawings for a full sized triple expansion engine made by Simpson, Strickland and Co., Dartmouth, England.
Details are HP Cylinder 3.5", MP cyl, 5.25" and low Pressure 8"

Just thought it might be a good engine to scale down?

I could scan the drawings if there was sufficient interest.

John S.</font>

[RonGinger]

I have some photos of my steam engine (actually Ray Hasbroucks #5) and the boiler and boat at http://plsntcov.8m.com

Rays design uses a built up crankshaft that can be all supported in ball bearings-even the rod ends. Makes for a nice reliable steam engine.

[dbasberg]

Ron
I like your web page. Your a busy guy! I just received the prints for #1, #5, #8, and #10 engines from Ray HasBrouck. I will be gaining a lot of knowledge from the prints and I will be building my first steam engine based on this material. Your boiler looks excellent. What pressure do you run?
I am an electrical engineer that made a career out of computerized realtime control systems and realtime hardware in loop simulation. I retired June 2000 at age 53. Then the NASDAQ went boom. Now I am going back to work to makeup some of my losses...BUMMER! Good news is that it will pay for me to get a lathe and mill to build steam engines and other neat stuff. I have a 7x10" import lathe and a drill press now. I want to get a 2hp Vertical knee mill and 13" lathe for my company (the one man corp is how I have returned to working, so buying tools is a business expense).
I have never been to Maine, but my wife and I will buy a small RV trailer when we re-retire in two years. First trip will be Maine (hide the lobsters you want to save).

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RonGinger:
I have some photos of my steam engine (actually Ray Hasbroucks #5) and the boiler and boat at http://plsntcov.8m.com

Rays design uses a built up crankshaft that can be all supported in ball bearings-even the rod ends. Makes for a nice reliable steam engine.</font>

[Thrud]

Doug

If you want Lobster or monster sized Scalops - visit New Brunswick or Newfoundland - oh, sure - they talk funny (who doesn't), but $1.20(US) is $2.00 in Canada and we never shoot the tourists or have drive-by's.

Dave

[dbasberg]

Hi Dave
Can not bring my handgun though (;&gt; )...lets not get THAT discussion going! Seriously, we were planning to continue that trip into the Canadian Maritimes. I have had many vacations in Canada and I think very highly of Canada and the Canadian people. Canada is the only other country I would consider living in. Right now, my first choice would be VanCouver Island (with its excellent access to the B.C. mainland. Not likely I will immigrate though. Took a horse packing trip into Wilmore Wilderness in Alberta in August 2001...very nice! Spent my youth taking canoe and pack trips into Northern Ontario on the Algoma Central RR. They would stop anywhere on the track and let off or pick up people (even with canoes). Many great times in the Canadian bush!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
Doug

If you want Lobster or monster sized Scalops - visit New Brunswick or Newfoundland - oh, sure - they talk funny (who doesn't), but $1.20(US) is $2.00 in Canada and we never shoot the tourists or have drive-by's.

Dave</font>



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Doug Basberg
Independent Engineering
Consultant

[charlie coghill]

Doug: Here is a site that you may find interesting. www.northweststeamsocity.org (http://www.northweststeamsocity.org)
for steam boats and engines. Charlie.

[dbasberg]

Thanks Charlie
One of the members live here in Michigan and built and operate a steam launch.
The web site did not open for me, then I noticed an 'e' was missing in 'society'. Then I was in. Good site, looks like it is a work in progress. So I think I should check back with them every month or so.
I now have the plans from Ray HasBrouck and they are excellant. I got engines 1,5,8, and 10. They are all quit different, so lots of ideas. They include two pump designs and that will be helpful too.
I just built a milling attachment for my 7x10 lathe. I made some machining errors that I could work around and get a usable result. Theory and practice are not the same thing. I need some more experience before I do anything very complicated. I had a situation where I needed to mount a small machine vice on my compound slide with 4 10-32 socket head screws. The mounting required the recesses for the heads of the screws (5/16") break through on one side. I only have a drill press to do the drilling (lathe too small to swing vice body and no mill). So I drilled and the bit drifted to the open side and created a sloping, off-center, messy hole. You will never see photos of this project! I believe the job would have gone well with an end mill. The milling attachment for my lathe could now be used to make a better milling attachment for my lathe (;&gt; ). I am going to continue making small parts with the machines I have while I wait to get the money to buy the mill. I need the practice and I have a good time working with what I have and thinking about how it should be done (like on this project). I guess I had better find a bigger scrap barrel.
Doug


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by charlie coghill:
Doug: Here is a site that you may find interesting. www.northweststeamsocity.org (http://www.northweststeamsocity.org)
for steam boats and engines. Charlie.</font>

[charlie coghill]

Doug: I never could type or spell. I sure wish this BB had a spell check.

[gjackson]

I wouldn't consider B&S to be much of a lead. The average life of a lawnmower engine is around 350 hours or so. A riding mower might be more like 500 hours. B&S does not put this into their specifications, but their market studies show this as fact, and they will admit to that as a design goal in OEM meetings.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dbasberg:
I wonder what type of aluminum Briggs and Straton uses in their lawn mower engines with aluminum cylinders and pistons?

</font>



[This message has been edited by gjackson (edited 05-01-2002).]

[dbasberg]

I see your point. I will avoid aluminum for cylinders and pistons. I have a John Deere Model 317 garden tractor (20 years old and 3000 hours). Cast iron cylinders still have good compression. So far no engine work, just oil and tuneups. Went to NAMES(North American Model Engineer Show) show here in Michigan April 28, got lots of ideas!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gjackson:
I wouldn't consider B&S to be much of a lead. The average life of a lawnmower engine is around 350 hours or so. A riding mower might be more like 500 hours. B&S does not put this into their specifications, but their market studies show this as fact, and they will admit to that as a design goal in OEM meetings.



[This message has been edited by gjackson (edited 05-01-2002).]</font>



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Doug Basberg
Independent Engineering
Consultant