Views on Iraq= [political]

[SJorgensen]

I hope no one will be offended here because this thread is all about opinion which is a right of ours (if you are American.) I am pro war in Iraq. I wanted to start a thread for debate and I welcome opinions that are anti-war or anti American to give me a chance to express why I support the war effort.
Spence

[Paul Gauthier]

So far I think we are going entirely too easy on them and risking too many American and British lives. I believe this war can be won without risking ground troops.
We should be dropping the biggest baddest bombs we have , Short of nukes, and maybe I could be talked into using a couple of those also. Bagdad should be reduced to smoking hole in the ground.

------------------
Paul G.

[Oso]

I myself would be happy to "murder" Saddam, i.e. personally execute him. I would do it the way I pull a weed, not in anger.

On the other hand I do not have a thing against the bulk of the Iragis, they have put up with far more from Saddam than we have. I have had acquaintances who are Kuwaiti, Iranian, and, as I recall Iraqi. All of them were nice friendly people, actually.

I think you may be forgetting something. Most people, of any group whatever, simply want to live decently, and enjoy their families and friends. Very few are actively involved with any sort of politics and especially the activity which has become known as "terrorism".

Even the families of most of the suicide bombers did not want them to do what they have done, even if they themselves are no friends of the Israelis.

Lumping them together as all bad and speaking of "snmoking holes in the ground" smacks of denying their humanity, which is the first step to camps, executions, "showers and ovens", ethnic cleansing, etc. You do not want to go there, that is the realm of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc.

To avoid that is what this is all about. If that is not the case, then we deserve to get our butts whipped by Saddam.

[yf]

Don't forget, On September 11, the civilized decent folk in iraq as well as the entire muslim world, celebrated in the streets as over 3000 Americans were murdered in cold blood.

The leaders of a people even an evil leader do have a reflection of their people.

The U.S. is now rushing in relief to the people of iraq. Do you think iraqis or any muslim would give you any relief at all? Besides for propaganda purposes?

In Brooklyn, New York, on September 11, before the total deaths were known, and estimates were as high as 20,000, muslims celebrated openly in the streets. This was suppressed in the news to avoid rioting.
In one instance in Coney Island some Italian Americans were infuriated by celebrating muslims, and broke up their celebration with baseball bats.

Another thing most people never heard is that several minutes after the second plane hit the World Trade center, the plo called and claimed responsibility.
Later, after our president declared the attacks an act of war, they retracted their statement. The media was happy to drop the story. I read it in the local papers and it was not mentioned again in any national news outlet. Yet we are still sending them American taxpayers money to the tune of 150 million dollars per year, no doubt some of it goes to fund attacks on Israel, the only real ally the U. S. has in the middle east or all of Asia for that matter. The rest goes into swiss accounts held by the leaders of the pa.

They are a bad seed and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

They are the worlds preeminent liars and fakers.

Sure we all know some who act towards us in a friendly fashion.
On friday they go to their mosques and listen to sermons urging America's destruction.
Here in the U. S.!

[INTP]

Anyone looking for reason to change their mind (pro or con)?

[Locksmith]

I paraphrase:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. What is worse is the degraded state of human thought that claims that nothing is worth war."
Today I heard a sound bite of a female protester in NY say that President Bush was worse than Saddam Hussein. It makes me sick that people can hate themselves and their country that much.
I spent 7 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and spent 4 1/2 of those years overseas. We just don't realize how good we've got it here.
God Bless America!

[Oso]

People are what they are told. That is why propaganda works.

If the people are told that a successful attack has been made on their enemies, they will be happy. They may celebrate in the street. Do they KNOW that what they are told is true? How could they?

Have the ordinary 3rd grade-educated (if at all) people in an un-developed country any chance to find out what we are like? NO.

Would they like us better if they knew us better? Maybe not, maybe so.

The people in "Jonestown", who started as pretty much folks like you, were convinced of a particular set of lies, and look at the result. What if they had been convinced that they had to blow up the antichrist who was in the white house? There probably would be a crater there.

Some, yes, some are our enemies. They are valid targets.

I happen to NOT LIKE many aspects of current society. I happen NOT to like some political etc aspects, for that matter.

Some of those opinions would likely be shared by a fundamentalist muslim. Or shared by a fundamentalist christian, for that matter. Others would not.

One big problem is that "hate" is directed against entire groups, but "liking" is an individual thing. It takes a lot of individuals to offset a little hate.

Care to call me an enemy of the state? Its open season.



[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 03-29-2003).]

[milmat1]

Well we are all being influenced by propaganda, You can not count on our government to tell the truth anymore than theres.
I hate the thought of anyone having to die, because any lost life is gone forever! And even we seem to disregard this though maybe not as much as some.
Saddom just needs to go away, plain and simple ! Why we didn't just asassinate him to start with? We had to much money invested in him thats why! When the UN asked how we know he has weapons of mass destrutcion, We should have replied "because we kept the reciepts" !
Does anyone remember the IRAN Contra scandal? When Goerge Bush senoir was the head of the cia at the time ! This war is a personal one. But at the same time we must protect our country at all cost. So what is the answer ?
An old saying say's "If wars had to be fought by the men who start them there would be no wars"!
Is the war on terror going to be any different than the failed war on drugs? Is not the shipping of mind killing drugs being flooded into this country a Chemical Attack??
What about n.korea, now thats a scary problem there! That conflict was never really ended, it was nothing more than a cease fire agreement at the end of WW2, Now they have openly backed out of the treaty,so the war is legally restarted. And china was there alie during that war so what happens next?
I am rambling all this off to make a point ! War is HELL! Innocent people die and suffer because of some political B.S.
And it is not going to change. So now are we really any different than any other country on earth, or do we just have the biggest guns??
What kind of world is our grandkids gonna live in ? When america is not any safer than downtown Jerusalum! Terror alerts on the TV, constant killing and murdering in the streets. My granfather must be rolling in his grave ! To see the country he gave his life for, in this shape.
Are we going to be better off after this conflict is over? Wher do we go from here? How much are we willing to sacrifice? These are the questions that every American must ask themselves Now!
We have been attacked, The sleeping dragon has been woke up once more! I believe that the rest of the world has lost the great respect and admiration it once held for America. And no wonder, look what we have done over the last 50 yrs or so.
Well it is time the world knows that we are a peacfull people! But our Will to be Free is stronger than our will to Live ! And we are gonna have freedom and peace even if we have to destroy the whole planet to achieve it.
Everyone is downplaying the fact that this is a war of christians and muslims. They may hide it in the propaganda and the press but that is exactly what it is, the big battle one that will destroy everything if were not carefull.
All these conflicts we hear about everyday on the news, wars and rumers of wars are nothing more than people choosing there sides !!
Just some things to ponder ???????
Getting back to Iraq civialans are going to die, its sad but there is no way around it.How can there be rules to war? How rediculas, This is all or nothing. Like was stated earlier, they were dancing in the streets when we were attacked! Did they send humanitarian supplys to us Nope !
If he uses chemical weapons on our troops, i say pull everyone out and light that place up so that it glows in the dark for a hundred years as a reminder to the rest of the world "DONT TREAD ON US" !!!!

[spope14]

I have five former students over there right now. I will not express my views here too deep but to say I support our troops, and hope we come out with victory. The reason I say that is because we go in, we better win.

My prayers are for the safety of my students, and will also add my two nephews also over there.

[SJorgensen]

I think that it is very essential that we win this war quickly and decisively. Arab nations all around are watching to see our power and our weaknesses. They only see our humanity, and our reluctance to kill civilians as an essential weakness. Summary execution, lopping of ears and hands and tongues and stoning to death are cultural things that the Arab states want to hold on to. They don't abide to the concepts that were essential in the founding our country; that all men were created equal (I know it took 100 years and we still don't have it totally right.) The ideas and concepts that are necessary for people to live in peace with our fellow man, of all races, all colors, and nationalities and especially religion. At the current time they feel that they have a right to treat innocent people with such severity. I feel we need put a stop to it. I only hope that this is the right time. The world has become a much smaller place in the last 10 years. When it comes to cruelty and the inhumanity that are abundant in Iraq we have only two choices. Expect him to apply it to us and for him to use anthrax or nerve gas, or do something about it.

I don't support the idea of imbedded media. I don't know why we are exposing our bellies to our enemies. Every time we question our leadership or make an assertion we can't prove, the enemy instantly exploits these questions. Any doubts we have, or fears we have, or vulnerabilities we have, the media is working on it like picking a scab. I have to accept that 400,000 children under the age of 5 have died of malnutrition in the last 5 years. In the last 5 days a man bled to death from having his tongue cut out in a public place because of Saddam, and a woman was hanged because she waved to one of our soldiers.
I don't want to see these things. I do accept them as true. I want Saddam out. And I want Bush out at the end of his term.
Spence


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 03-30-2003).]

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 03-30-2003).]

[Thrud]

spope14:
I am with you brother. I really do not want to see anyone killed over this. Not the soldiers, not the people. I wish there was a another way.

You cannot reason with dishonourable men. Sooner or later, someone has to clean up the mess.

It bothers me that Canada has a missle destroyer in the gulf and 40 of our snipers out there - but our bastard Prime Minister does not have the guts to openly support our American Brothers. He could have at least openly supported the US even if our pathetic military has been underfunded to the point where they are almost moot.

God speed to my brothers and sisters in the war - may they all return safely, soon.

[Locksmith]

Hey Thrud:
American Brothers? You're all right!(In spite of what they all say about you on this BB, But, I digress).

[Thrud]

Locksmith:
Hey, just because I was willing to shave my chest and wear a dress just so Brent would adopt me (He has lots of shop space)is no reason to talk behind my back - someone else will have to shave that, eh! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[wierdscience]

I was talking to a 101 year old man the other day and he told me "son what people are seeing know ain't s---!I have seen real problems floods that lasted for months,a depression that lasted for a decade,a world war that saw untold carnage,two wars that were fought with out a clear end in sight,and a hundred other things I can't remember,but in all that time I never once saw the people of this country give up!"And that my friend is the best thing I heard in a long time.

[lynnl]

That's a good reminder Wierdscience!

[hambone]

I have 3 very good friends over there also, but I believe that they are doing over there,so that "we" in the long term will alowe us to be A free and democratic union!The first three words of the constitution of the UNITED STATES declares "WE THE PEOPLE" we the people together can make a change for the good. UNITED WE STAND, devided we fall!

[Locksmith]

Did you ever notice that the cause of most wars is almost always religion or politics or a combination of both?
Lest I be misunderstood, I believe the major cause of wars between husband and wife is money(Least it was for me). Might not be war on a grand scale, but it's still a war.

[crypto]

How do you feel about the war now that it has turned into its foretold inevitable quagmire conflict.

How do you think those poor GIs feel about being stuck and targeted in a war where you cannot identify your enemy or know where the next attack is coming from? I can still remember how it felt in Normandy when we first landed and we had to live thru several weeks of sniper fire. There is nothing more nerve wracking.

Are you familiar with the events of Dien Bien Phu?
The French are all too familiar with that disaster. That's one of the reasons that they declined to join us in this poorly planned, politically expedient Republican adventure.

Oscar

[crypto]

So I blew my stack. Here's why. This morning's newspaper had a front page photo of a group of soldier's from the 3rd Inf. Div. They had just been told that "there's still no date for their return for their return home to Geogia". Their expressions tell it all.

I guess it brought back the memories of my feelings when I learned that I was considered still eligible for the forthcoming invasion of Japan.

My apologies for waving my dirty laundry in everyone's face.

Oscar Ortiz

[lynnl]

Oscar, you fully earned your right to comment. No apology needed.
And your point certainly appears valid too. It's looking more and more like we were fed a line of bul.... ' er, well let's say the truth may have been (knowingly?) misrepresented.

[wierdscience]

Qagmire?How long have we been there?Not very.What we are seeing is the typical short sighted knee jerk,we saw it when the advance slowed down,we saw it when the wmds that Saddam had twelve years to hide were not immedeately found,and now we are seeing it again,short attention spans and a biased media are to blame.One thing that might put things in to perspective is that while the lost of even one soldier is terrible we have lost far more people on our own streets in recent days,the murder rate in New Orleans is fast excedding our casualties so far.As for the current problems don't be to quick to judge the results as not even a year has passed.As for being fed a lie,I don't think so.Far different from"I did not have sex with that woman"Some how we are ready to believe one ambassador over the whole intel.community,give me a break.We are on the verge of a watershed in the middle east,have you seen anything about Isreal in the news in recent weeks?No the media is burying the cease fire and the peace talks that are taking place.

[Weston Bye]

Well said, Wierdscience.

[SJorgensen]

I still support the overthrow of Saddam. I think the CIA and FBI needs to be shaken out because of they have failed miserably in so many instances. Instead of fixing the problem they use the supposed "War on Terrorism" as an excuse to turn the government on the American people and our very core freedoms are in jeopardy. I hear that librarys now have to report what books you might look at and all our communications are probably surveiled. Reminds me of the file system that Herbert Hoover had on the private lives of Americans and it was used to extort things from innocent people.

I agree that very little time has passed and the war was called a "Quagmire" in the first week! It isn't great the General Franks is retiring at this time. It isn't great that troup strenght started low and then was reduced too soon. It is an extreme failure that Saddam has slipped through our fingers AGAIN! Also what about the original target in this so called war, Osama Bin Laden. I have to wonder if our government isn't doing this by design. They may want to maintain these threats for political reasons. The same reasons that caused the CIA to WAY overestimate the strengths of the Soviet Union. After the collapse that was exposed. It is used to increase funding for our military industry.

I think the basic evidence of the WMD is sound and broad and most every country thought so. It might be as easy to find some of these as some of the ancient tombs in that area were to find after thousands of years.

It is time to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis and fix the power and water and especially improve the lives of those who help and report on threats to us. The sooner we do that the sooner Iraq can join the world and we can leave. Still not nearly enough time has passed to re-establish the whole economic, political, and physical infrastructure of a country. Our general popularity is slipping and that is the first failure. It needs to be improved.

[wierdscience]

Well said as well,you are right about the FBI and the company debacle,the right hand not only doesn't know what the left is doing, it doesn't even know is in the building!Remember Richard Jewel?Well we have a repeat,the guy who the fbi was ruining his life because he had the knowledge and the means to create anthrax?Well after all this time,money and resources he has been cleared,seems he was working for the company the whole time,yep Richard Jewel all over again.The worst is the man power and tax dollars that were put to waste.The dems don't know what to do just yet about Bush's policy on Africa,so far they can only say that its not enough even though they themselves did nothing,And some on both sides don't see the need to get involved.I hope the rest of the world will one day realize what will happen without the U.S. standing in the gap for us all.

[Locksmith]

Oscar,
If this is a "poorly planned Republican adventure", I suggest you think back to who was in charge during , and who escalated the Vietnam war, while at the same time not allowing the military run it. Then think about who ended it. That was a "Poorly planned Democratic adventure" on a vast scale.
I thank God everyday that Gore was not the President on September 11th. We would be "negotiating" to this day.
As to Dien Bien Phu, be real. The French, at least in the last century, are a bunch of military idiots who are more concerned with doing things the "French Way" than the right way. Did the Maginot line do them any good? And they had the gall in WW1 to try to tell us to fight the way that they did?

[Arcane]

I keep hearing that Saddam had WMD, so my question is, just what is a WMD? (And don`t tell me it's "Weapon of Mass Destruction".) I would like to hear your definition of exactly what it is.

[spope14]

Anybody who thought this would be a "weekend" war at any time throughout this discussion or the eventual turn from a war in planning to what it is now should be reminded that there are no "quick wars".

WWI the US tried to be in a "quick war" along with the allies, and the war lasted many years. Got out too quick and tried too many "shortcuts" to peace, and too many punishing maneuvers, thus the foundations of WWII.

WWII. lasted from 1941 to 1945 on the US part, starting earlier for the european and asian counterparts, and even for the US in China and in pre-war support. AND then we hung around Europe and Japan for many years to assure rebuilding and such, and many more years after this as a result of the next war.

The COLD WAR - WWIII. I have for years called the COLD WAR as WWIII, because it really was!~!!! I have in recent months heard others now call this the same. The cold war essentially from 1953 to 1993, and involved all parts of the world. The US still remains in Europe and parts of the world as a result of WWII, and the Cold War. Same goes with Japan, and the islands above Japan, and some of the "outer bases". All a result of the WWII, and the resulting WWIII actions.

Korea. Fought not to win according to history, we have been there since it began, right on the cusp many a time of war again. This in many historians views was the beginnings of the "real cold war", not the development of the bombs, but the realization that the US, China Communists, and even the supporting Russians WOULD fight the battles.

Vietnam, I really do not want to touch on this one because it is sensitive to many of you here, so I avoid this with due respect, but to say that the historians state years later we had the battles won, and for the most part the whole military war won. I lost family there, so am not going to open wounds I prefer not to have opened myself, but consider these troops heroes.

All wars, never a small committment, but a long term committment. Anyone with an ear and appreciation of history knows that wars are potentially and realistically a decades long committment for the "winners". Wars are "won" on the battlefield in a military sense of ground taken, troops killed, assets destroyed. Wars though are not truly won without the full accounting of what did you do after the battles were won and long over - how did you win the people and civilians, and what did you do to "better" the country.

I never considered IRAQ 1 a full success, though our troops fought valliently. It was a job undone. Somolia, we went in and never relized the full circumstance. Bosnia and the Baltics - we are still there though more quietly now. This one we are moving well in, as we hear few issues there now - as I said, committment, results, outcomes. Afghanistan, still there - the battles won, the outcomes to full peace still being fought out and built.

You see, I really am not a real "hawk" in terms of lets go in and blow things up, but rather a realist of "if we are to do this, do it right". I will not judge the correctness or incorrectness of Iraq #2, but will state what I have as a lesson, and a thought for all. This war, though won on the major battlefield, will go on for years, and in all respect and reality, we should have realized this from day #1 as history teaches us.

[wierdscience]

Well said,my thoughts are along a similar line,the only difference being that this is more one battle in a larger war that may well last for years to come.

[crypto]

Does anyone remember The Persian Lamb, an exotic dancer who performed in San Francisco nite clubs during the late 1940s or 50s.

I could never drop a bomb on that lovely one.

[lynnl]

Oscar, I'm sure I would have enjoyed seeing her, but in 1950 I was only 6 yrs old. My Mom wouldn't let me go into places like that back then. (I'd probably have gotten a whipping!) http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[crypto]

Lynn,

Had you been a precocious 6 year-old the whipping would have been worth it. What a dish that lovely one was! One of the fellows in the shop had her pinup photo. Made me realize that those abridged and sanitized versions of the Arabian Nights stories that I enjoyed as a child must have dwelt on matters other than flying carpets.

[bdarin]

All I know is our guys are getting picked off daily, and for what? What have we gained? An oil field. Saddam's whereabouts are unknown, Osama's whereabouts are unknown, WMD's whereabouts are unknown. About the only thing for sure is people who would be being tortured in Iraqi prison today aren't. Nothing else is working out, so let's go home. Saddam supporters are going to get stronger and win the same way the North Vietnamese won....by wearing us down till we quit. It will happen.

[Arcane]

I still haven`t seen anyone tell us what they think a Weapon of Mass Destruction is. Lots of usage of the term, but does anyone know what it is? Give us an example... Be careful. You will be graded on your answer.

[wierdscience]

Okay I will bite,a wmd is a chemical,biological or nuclear weapon designed to inflict mass casualties on either civilian or military populations or both.They can be as simple as a dirty bomb made from common radiological material and explosives,or as sophisticated as an engineered virus.So what is your point speak up?

[SJorgensen]

I think several thousand liters of anthrax (unaccounted for from before 1991) would qualify. Also smallpox and nuclear weapons are good examples. Don't forget botulinum toxin. Sarin and cyclosarin, VX nerve agent, and mustard gas.

Anyone that believes that Saddam Hussein gave up these programs because he was afraid of the United States is kidding himself or herself. I still believe that there are substantial stockpiles of some of these weapons stashed in Iraq. When, where, or even if they will come to be found or to be used, only time will tell. It is disturbing that our "intelligence" agencies have not located these weapons or the top people on our list. They are probably better at "dirty tricks" on Americans than in actual productive infiltration and spying on our enemies like they should be doing. They probably "assisted" in George Bush winning the election. Things like that don't just happen and his father has the connections to pull it off. It isn't out of the question. Remember Watergate? How many things like that have not come to be known by the public? Does anyone believe it doesn't happen? Powerful interests use powerful tactics. I may have strayed from the point a little but a leopard doesn't change his spots and Saddam isn't likely to have given up his weapons. Thank god he didn't have the guts to use them, or the people around him refused and so they secreted them somewhere and then killed the workers who buried it. That’s the way the pharaohs kept the secrets of buried things and it sometimes worked for thousands of years.

Spence

[bdarin]

Spence is right. This whole thing has been a clusterf**k since election day 2000.

[pantaz]

Why is this thread here? Plenty of message boards and newsgroups are available for political discussion. Yes, it has generated a significant number of replies. That's the nature of political discussions. However, I find it inappropriate content on a board intended for machine shop discussions.

My $0.02

[SJorgensen]

Well Pantaz,
Even people interested in metal work sometimes are interested in the opinions of their peers. At the time I started this thread the debate in general was quite different as the war was on (in a different way than it is now.) Anyway I put this topic in the least used forum and I clearly labeled the subject and so you shouldn't have been surprized. I think the best opinions I read are from machinists and other "thinking" people so I don't see anything wrong with getting their opinions on a wide range of subjects. It is sometimes a welcome respite from other subjects. When you are the moderator you can decide what people can discuss on your BBS. Otherwise it works better if you contribute to the subject or skip it totally.

Blair and Bush gave some pretty good speaches today. Nothing quite as good as Winston Churchill used to do, but pretty good. Although I am a Democrat and think Bush has really messed up the economy, I do think the WMD wasn't a fantasy of the CIA or anyone else. Whether it will ever be found is another question.
Spence

[lynnl]

Everyone is certainly entitled their opinion, but it seems odd to me that someone's 2nd posting here would be to take other participants to task for the subject matter. I could understand that in the case of a service that one is paying for, but in a free and voluntary gathering ...?

[Arcane]

Very close, wierdscience. There is really only ONE thing that is a WMD and that is a nuclear weapon. All the rest are conventional weapons.

[tonydacrow]

Arcane,

That's your definition of a WMD. I've seen what some of the biologics will do and how quickly they will spread. I would rather die of radiation poisoning! At least radiation (from a small blast at least)will more or less confine to a specific area. Try to contain biologics once they've been let out of the lab.

And don't discount chemical weapons. Just read some of the accounts of English casualties in WWI. To think nukes are the only WMD is to discount history and ignore science.

[wierdscience]

Bush screwing up the economy?Ya right,911 had nothing to do with it I suppose,or for that matter the same thing that started the great depression,investors investing in overvalued stocks!NASDAQ-what a waste,no as long as people can day trade and the markets are driven by peoples whims and emotions it will always be a gamble.
Teddy Roosevlet said that one thing that would destroy this nation is the get rich quick way of life-alas he was right!

[mpbush]

Okay, here goes...

Being one of the few liberal gun people around, I have a slighly different take on the Iraq war.

First off, I am willing to die to defend this country. However, the reason I am willing to do this is because we are "supposed" to be a country that acts with honor and integrity, that stands behind its beliefs when those beliefs have costs. That has integrity even when doing the right thing is difficult.

I want to see terrorism stopped, and if I see, or my government sees, a terrorist I have no problem putting one between the eyes. There are two ways to deal with the problem of terrorists, figure out ways to shoot them faster or figure out a way to stop having terrorists.

The country I believe in would want to figure out WHY these people are willing to die to destroy us. Not just be soldiers with a chance of living but to strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up to strike at us.

Many moderate Muslims believe we are exploiting the Arab world, the extremists believe we are out to destroy it.

Okay, here comes the liberal drivel...

When people asked Rumsfeld if they had adequate supplies and preperations to restore Iraq, he said of course, stop bothering me...

When we went in, we didn't not have the manpower, plans, equipment, anything to do the job we needed to do. What do the Iraqies see us doing? First things we secure and restore are the oil fields, not the hospitals, not the utilites, not the priceless museums, not anything, hell not even the nuclear stockpiles that were the basis of going in!

The country I love would have done the opposite. Restored the hospitals so the sick and injured could have been made well. If we had done that, that would have been a start to change the opinion of the arab world.

What did we do after we used the Afghans to beat the Russians, we abandoned them, they had served their purpose and we had no further need of them. Looks like we are doing it again.

If America truly acted with the beliefs most of us share, we WOULD be loved in the world and nobody would cheer harm done to us. However, the people all over the world who live under dictators installed by us, harrassed by death squads trained at OUR terror schools, like the School of the Americas, hate us NOT because we stand for freedom but because we hoard it for ourselves and export quite a different thing.

Where is the integrity in ignoring the UN, the World Court, or any other institution and yet at the very same time using those same institution to bully other countries into doing things the way we want. While I am torn on the issue of Isreal, to the arabs they see Israel with 100s of Nuclear weapons, in violation of numerous UN sanctions as a far worse violatior than Iraq and yet one we subsidize and the other we invade. Either we are subject to the international organizations or we do not use them. To use them when it suits us and ignore them when it doesn't, lacks integrity in the first degree.

I just would like to once again be a nation that truly acts with the moral integrity we once did and that stands for and demands of its actions, the highest standards.

Michael

[SJorgensen]

I agree with most everything you said, but I have to say that I think that most of the trouble we are having in restoring the infrastructure of Iraq (that was little damaged by the war) seems to be thwarted by Iraqi saboteurs and snipers. The loyal Bathists don't want us to be successful. Until we get Saddam Hussein, these groups will continue their guerilla tactics and actually increase the popular support of the resistance. If the oil wealth was really going to go to the people instead of to the Bush's family friends, they might not have a problem with it. I'd like to see the standard of living of the common man there improve, but those that resist Democracy and freedom for others should be driven to the deserts.
Spence

[wierdscience]

The museum issue is dead wood,it didn't happen,the "priceless" artifacts where hidden by the employees and have since been found intact,infact the museum is open again.
We have plenty of man power and equipment over there and we are getting the infrastructure up and running including ones that haven't run in years.
As for making new terrorists most of those moderate muslims are like the Saudi's,the people live in tents and they live in palaces.It is not our fault that they starve their own people,and it is not our fault that they send their children to the prayer rug instead of school.
As for Israel,they have a right to defend themselves as much as we do,their arsenal is the only thing keeping the Arabs at bay.
And for the last time,I get sick and tierd of people over here and around the world using that same old tired excuse that its somebody elses fault.Excusses are like a--holes everybody has one!If your children are starving-feedthem,if your people are oppresed-free them,thats all it takes,but thats not what happens,instead we have programs like oil for food that don't work and will never work,then we have sactions which also don't work and never will work.The U.N. is a sick joke,you need only look who is on the human rights commity to see its a joke,In Bosnia they went in and did nothing and the killing continued unchecked untill we lead the effort.
I don't listen to the national media or the news papers,I get my news from the front,and the news I get is the situation is changing for the better everyday,we just don't hear that very often as the media foucses on the negative.You also won't hear that the real damage is being done not by Saddam hold outs but by Irainian nationals,they are running scared because we are in the neigbhorhood,if things turn around in the next six months you will see their government colapse.
America has been a force for positive change in the last century,we have liberated oppresed people,rebuilt entire countries,and fed countless millions.I hear people say that we are arogant,well maybe we are,but then again maybe they are jealous.

[mpbush]

Wierdscience,

Thank you for saying it better than I could. We didn't save the museum, the Iraquis had to because we were busy saving the oil ministry...

Also, to quote you "And for the last time,I get sick and tierd of people over here and around the world using that same old tired excuse that its somebody elses fault"

If you really believe that statement is true, how can you then blame others for the people who attack us?

Michael

[Arcane]

tonydacrow, I don`t discount history and ignore science, I just don`t call a "bb gun" a "cannon". I was pretty sure the vast majority of readers wouldn`t know what a WMD is and I wasn`t disapointed. BTW, this isn`t just my personal definition of a WMD that I have decided on out of the blue, it`s something I have learned from reading others definitions of it. Those people went into great detail to define the differences and I wish I could post their reasons, but it`s been awhile since I read them and their original posts have disappeared.

[mpbush]

Arcane,

The sources you are believing must really BE arcane as the US army defines WMD as NBC, or Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical.

Why is that relevant? Because when you use one of those three, we will respond in kind, more likely with a large and rather permenent nuke strike.

I have never heard ANYONE say either that nukes were the only WMD or that either biological or chemical were not WMD.

Michael

[SJorgensen]

I agree with Michael,
Conventional in my book means "standard practice" and I certainly hope these terrible weapons don't become standard practice. It is bad enough that tank, missles, explosives, napalm, artillery ect are "Conventional." It is clear that the definition of the United States is that these N,B,C weapons are not "Conventional" although we may have more of every type than anyone except in some cases the old USSR. There is a lot at stake in keeping the Non proliferation treaty in force for the safety of the free world. The term Weapons of Mass Destruction has been one of the most used terms in use in the world this year. I think the majority are using it to refer to all types of NBC, especially where their use is intended against civilian populations. This is also the favorite target of the Muslem extremist's we are fighting against. I would like to know were Arcane gets his definition.

Spence

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 07-20-2003).]

[wierdscience]

Yes,I can blame others for the people who want to kill us,its called guilt by association,not all Japanese and Germans supported their leaders actions,but many shared the same fate.
And yes we did secure the oil ministry,if for no other reason but to shut up the inviromentalists wacks who would be complaining if Saddam's men blew the wells up.it seems that many of them purposly botched their destruction before we invaded.
Also there is this global opinion by idiots everywhere that we are there to "take"their oil,this could not be futher from the truth,we have bought and paid for every drop,what their leaders have done with the money is their problem.
We had how many years of oil for food?And what happened,the money was either flushed away on gold toilets,or places(at last count there were I believe 700 or so palaces in Iraq)Saddam could have been a Hero to his people and earned their loyalty through kindness,but instead he inslaved,butcherd and starved them.
We live in the greatest nation in the history of the world,people all over the world still risk life and limb to get here,would they do it if we where as evil as everyone says,I don't think so.
History has proven that a government that is brutal and oppresive to its people will not last.
Or founding fathers were a group of rich white guys who could have let the status qoe remain and died even more rich,but instead they dicided to do something the likes of which the world has never seen,they sacrificed all they had to see this country into being,and (despite what the anti-gun lobby says) gave us the second ammendment to insure that if all other legal means where to be exhuasted the situation could be righted by an armed public.This was not the case in Iraq.

[villageforge]

Well said wierdscience!

[tonydacrow]

For those who think WMD's only refer to nukes, answer this: why even use the term WMD? Why not just say nukes? I'll tell you why. Because all nukes are necessarily WMD's but not all WMD's are necessarily nukes. WMD is a more generalized term. If you think otherwise it's because you WANT to think otherwise and not because logic, semantics or generally accepted principles of language are on your side.

[mpbush]

Not sure where to begin but I think I will start at the end. I strongly agree with you that the men, and I mean real men, who founded this country did it not only with their fortune but their own blood, they gave everything they had. When they wrote the Bill of Rights, they did so to ensure we stayed free even if that meant a violent overthrow of the government.

We also agree that evil dictators should not stand and that we should not support them. There was a need to support and install brutal dictators during the cold war but that time has ended.

Here is where we depart from agreement and I become the board idiot. I think we chose Iraq because of the oil. Why? Korea is worse than Iraq ever was by every standard of measure and has supported far more terrorists than Iraq has and for far longer. Not only that but they actually are either on the brink of having nuks or already do. In addition, they have the missiles to deliver them. However, they do not have oil...

As for the comparison of the axis powers in WWII to Iraq misses the point I was trying to make. In WWII we wanted to destory our enemy which was the axis governments. Governments are easy to destroy, remove their power and they end. We are not fighting a government, nor are we fighting a people or even its religion, we are fighting religious fundamentalists who exploit the poor and turn them into living weapons.

We need to act (and I believe that can include everything up to nuking somebody) in such a way that our actions are not seen as our being out to destroy either the Muslim people, its faith, nor exploiting the arab world for its oil.

The tools and tactics that will lead to victory in this war are not the same as a conventional conflict. Think what you would do if Russia had taken over the US and killed off the government. Would you stop fighting? Hell no!

However, (and this is clearly hypothetical) what would you have done if the Russians had abolished taxes, rebuilt our infrastructure, rejuvinated free enterprise, and ended political corruption. That just might take some of the fight out of you woulnd't it? Especially if they told us that they were going to do the above quickly and get out.

If we, and while I doubt it, really DO rebuild Iraq AND make it politically stable, either as one state or three, then we will have won a great victory against terrorism. However, if we pull out because we feel the Iraqis are not grateful enough, or we start loosing too many people, Iraq will become a Beirut the size of California and we will have handed terrorism a massive victory.

Michael

[wierdscience]

Michael,I don't have a problem with anything you just said,we are trying hard to get Iraq's infrastructure back up and running,I have three realitives over there right now,two in the Army and one in the Guard,what they are telling me is different from whats in the news,they say that the attitude in Iraq is changing daily,people are begining to come out and thank them for being there,its only that one area of the counrty where the killing is taking place,I think that Sadamm is still alive or at least his men are putting on a good show,I do have one fear that I hope people in Washington have thought about,and that is what happens if we don't give up and go home like they think we will and as a last ditch effort they roll out a wmd and take out everybody?I do not think Sadamm would be above that at all.If God for bid that should happen I hope G.W. tells the u.n. where they can go!
Okay now for the oil issue,this may seem calous but the price of a barrel of oil will do more damage than if they took out one or even two of our cities,the damage to the economy would be ireversible,If overnight the price of fuel went up $2 the country would come to a screcing halt.
The pittaful shame is we have enough domestic production capacity to more than offset the effect if we were allowed to use it.
We have let the invormentalists and the news media take control of our lives on the most important isssue facing us today.None of them know what the current production methods are nor do they care,just don't mess up our view,they support things like electric cars which in the end result will pollute more than a car with an internal combustion engine,they promote things like get this-a recycleable car?I got news for them,we have been doing just that since cars came to be,I geuss if you are a movie star though your car is disposable.
North Korea is also a different matter all together,in the south you have people of the same country remember?asking us to avoid war at all costs,also North Korea is reigned in a little by China,and remember the pseudo capitalist party fat cats in China don't make as much money when we are at war with anybody(not as many people in Wal-Mart,to many watching the war on tv),also they have to realise that if they nuke us we will nuke them(and geuss who has more?)
The other factor is that we have in North Korea one certified nut in power who isn't all that hard to get to,if not by us maybe somebody else?We also set them a message when we began moving our forces back from the DMZ just out of range.
I think the world is going through growing pains and it will be many years before things settle down,so maybe the best thing to do is sit down and buy some Rolaids and relax.
The thing to watch is what the U.N. does,they are the culprits behind a lot of this,before it is overwith it will come out what they are up to in the Middle east and Africa.At that point I hope we send them packing.