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chipperclem
01-26-2002, 09:30 AM
Can anyone tell me where I might obtain blueprints for some of the old single shot rifle actions? Winchester Highwall, Borchardt, Ballard, Rollingblock, etc.

RPease
01-26-2002, 06:14 PM
HSM sells a book on building a single-shot falling block action. Their write-up says that it was originally published as a series in their magazine. You'd have to check their archives to find out which issues. Can't help with the others. Might be easier to buy an old action and "reverse engineer" it.

Thrud
01-26-2002, 06:20 PM
"Reverse Engineering" in the US is a federal offense - just thought you should know.

Dave

JimWolford
01-26-2002, 10:09 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chipperclem:
Can anyone tell me where I might obtain blueprints for some of the old single shot rifle actions? Winchester Highwall, Borchardt, Ballard, Rollingblock, etc.</font>

One person has or does sell blueprints for quite a few old rifle actions.
I was going to buy a set today, but my supplier is out- he will give me the name/number of the person making the prints sometime this week.
At that time I will post the information here

Jim



[This message has been edited by JimWolford (edited 01-26-2002).]

RPease
01-27-2002, 07:54 AM
Thrud,
I believe that you are right. "Reverse engineering" is probably against the law. Too many things seem to be against the law. Most of our laws today are made for the "fat cats", not the citizens that make those "cats fat". Although I didn't state it, what I meant was; to buy an old action and use it to create his own. I don't believe that taking an "OLD" mechanism (more than likely out of patent coverage) and using it as a "guide" to create a "similar" product (for personal use) constitutes breaking the law. Using it to "create for profit" would certainly seem to be illegal, but I didn't detect that sort of intent. Not being a lawyer, it would not surprise me to find that my belief is wrong, but I hardly feel that coming after an individual for doing such a thing (as in this instance) would be monetarily justified. (The Feds like to go after the "big Guy", like Bill Gates). Then again, that's one of the ways I learn. From mistakes. Another is from this BBS.

However, I'd hate to think that every time my lathe, mill, drill press, hammer handle, etc. gets broken (instead of having to "buy a part from the manufacturer) that I have to worry that "making a new part" from personal materials constitutes breaking some law(s) and might carry some extented jail sentence and/or fine. A part that "looks and functions", in every respect, "like the original". A part that probably was "patented/registered/patent applied for" (or some other legal term) at one point in its life, but nevertheless a part that broke and was replaced by my own labor and ingenuity. Granted, Chipperclem didn't say that he wasn't going into business with these actions, but I doubt that it would be anymore legal by using the drawings. While not condoning theft, I say, if I can use someone else's design to create something for my "own" use, then I probably will. Hate to think that some project that I made for my kids or wife could land me in jail, because I or they "saw one at the store" and I felt that I could make it, instead of buying it. Oh well......maybe I'll get lucky and end up in one of those "country club" prisons, like the politicians get to go to. Probably not......they make the laws.
(By the way. No anger here. No offense was taken....and no offense meant. Just SOAPBOXING. Bureaucracy sucks.)

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RPease

chipperclem
01-27-2002, 12:56 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I am a custom gunsmith by trade and am interested in building some of these old rifles for my own personal use only. The way I see things, reverse engineering or copying would be a crime if patent or copyright laws were infringed upon and only if the product were sold for profit. We would all be in a fix if every time something broke down, we had to go out and buy the parts for repair. That's the fun of having your own shop.

JCHannum
01-27-2002, 01:44 PM
The HSM book and articles are interesting. First section has quite a bit of engineering info needed to design your own actions.

Frank de Haas "Mr. Single Shot's Book of Rifle Plans" is available from Brownells, and de Haas' son. Also interesting. These are not the best looking actions on the block, but are workable, simple and rugged.

Buying a used action to reverse engineer is not an inexpensive proposition. The good ones are hard to come by, and can run into real money.

I don't believe reverse engineering is a problem in this case, as there are several firms currently producing some beautiful reproductions of these guns. Patents are way out of date. Delivery is in months.

Thrud
01-27-2002, 03:14 PM
I agree with th statement that an antique action should not present any problems in duplicating, providing there are no current patents on it in effect. I do not think that a person desiring to roll his own should be barred from that - but I am not a Judge.

The reverse engineering laws were brought about because of high tech thievery as a means to "protect" American High Technology company's interests here and abroad. I agree with these laws but at the same time realise it stiffles competition and innovation. (Look at Windows it shold be error free by now, but never will be) What can you do?

Dave

JimWolford
01-31-2002, 07:38 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chipperclem:
Can anyone tell me where I might obtain blueprints for some of the old single shot rifle actions? Winchester Highwall, Borchardt, Ballard, Rollingblock, etc.</font>

OK, I finally got the information we wanted-
Blueprints are available from Bud Smith, call 1-903-734-7557 ( home ) or 734-6161 ( work )
Jim

chipperclem
02-02-2002, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the info, Jim. I called Bud and was able to get the plans I wanted. Only the home number is valid if anyone else tries to call.

JimH
02-06-2002, 11:27 AM
What rifles are included in the blueprints?

Is it one design per purchase?

Thanks,
Jim

chipperclem
02-06-2002, 02:07 PM
There is only one design per purchase. He has detailed drawings (20 sheets for the Highwall action) for the Rollingblock, Sharps, Highwall, Stevens 44 1/2, Ballard, Hepburn, and Farrow. Also available is a print of various sights.

JimWolford
02-06-2002, 10:02 PM
Chipper: Which did you go for? Now that I have found out how to make square holes in steel, I want to make a Farrow action

Jim

chipperclem
02-07-2002, 09:21 AM
Jim,
I ordered the Highwall, Rollingblock, and the Farrow. He threw in the sight plans as part of the deal.
I cheat on square holes. I have a wire EDM machine.

JimH
02-07-2002, 12:59 PM
Forgot to ask. How much does Bud Smith charge per set of plans?
Thanks,
Jim

chipperclem
02-07-2002, 01:39 PM
Cost of plans is $89 - $139 depending on content.

jkilroy
02-07-2002, 03:05 PM
Patents last 17 years, add three for the application process. For all of these old, but beautiful, single shot rifles, that means you can reverse engineer anything you want, and sell as many as you can, for as much profit as you want.

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James Kilroy

kengel
02-08-2002, 10:56 AM
Another source for some drawings and descriptions is the Patent Office. Might as well get some return for your tax dollars.

JimH
03-04-2002, 09:00 AM
Chipper,
Have you got the plans yet? If so, what's your opinion of the quality of the drawings?
Jim

chipperclem
03-04-2002, 11:06 AM
Jim,
I received the plans and the quality is excellent. They are very detailed and show stock and barrel dimensions also.