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View Full Version : Have I Ruined My SouthBend 9B?



cl5man
01-21-2003, 11:59 PM
I was having a terrible time trying to get my backgear assembly off the headstock. I have no manual so I've been posting a few questions here. I can't seem to get the pins driven out of the backgear spindle. I realize there tapered, and its pretty obvious which is the small end. I've bent both of my punches beating on it. Tried lots of WD-40. Even tried heating with a torch. Nothing worked. I finally did something pretty stupid. I tried drilling a hole through it, don't really know why, I just thought it would help matters. Well, of course I was using a hand drill and eyballing it. I didn't drill very strait and now I got a diagnal hole through my taper pin. Of course I still cant get either pin out. I figured I'd stop there before I do anymore damage. Anybody have some Ideas.

Oso
01-22-2003, 12:54 AM
Well, I don't have an SB, but I do have those (*&%^ pins in stuff.

When driven in, they are OK, but as soon as you try to take them out, the trouble starts.

In the first place, once you start beating in the small end, if it does not come out, you upset it into a jam fit into any trifling irregularity in the hole.

Second, many things that were fitted with them are used to spin a shaft. The pin may get cut or bent or whatever so the holes are not completely in line, and the pin catches instead of coming out.

As you upset it by beating, the problem gets worse if the joint between the collar and the shaft has gotten wallered out at all. Now there is a pin thru a hole that is thicker in the middle, so it is locked both ways.

If it really won't come out, try drilling the other way with a drill press or mill, being mighty careful to keep the hole smaller than the pin, and go in straight.

A lot of times, the %$#% hole is not theu the shaft center, so you have to hold it tightly and be careful.

If drilling out is required, eventually you can drive or chip it out if it is big enough.

Oh, yeah, be sure the end isn't mushroomed enough to hold it back. If you drill a sjort distance in from the small end almost to full size, you cut any upset mushrooming off, and then can often drive it cleanly.

I hate those dang things, but they sure do work.

GJLawlor
01-22-2003, 04:26 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cl5man:
I was having a terrible time trying to get my backgear assembly off the headstock. I have no manual so I've been posting a few questions here. I can't seem to get the pins driven out of the backgear spindle. I realize there tapered, and its pretty obvious which is the small end. I've bent both of my punches beating on it. Tried lots of WD-40. Even tried heating with a torch. Nothing worked. I finally did something pretty stupid. I tried drilling a hole through it, don't really know why, I just thought it would help matters. Well, of course I was using a hand drill and eyballing it. I didn't drill very strait and now I got a diagnal hole through my taper pin. Of course I still cant get either pin out. I figured I'd stop there before I do anymore damage. Anybody have some Ideas. </font>

These soft taper pins are difficult to remove once they're damaged. The only reliable way I learned to do this is to drill the pin out from the large end using a drill bit smaller than the small end. If at all possible use a drill press. Step up in drill size until you have drilled to the size of the small end of the taper pin. Then use taper reamers starting with small ones to ream out the remainder of the pin and continue on with the reaming operation until you have a new, larger clean hole. Cut and fit a new pin. It is slow and painfull but it works.

George

bpsbtoolman
01-22-2003, 09:59 AM
If you do not want to loose the orientation of the system I would before you take out the bungled up pin, drill at a new location and taper ream a new hole. Don't install the pin yet.
Now line up the bunged hole straight and with a small end mill carefully mill out the pin. Probably has to be done on a mill, not a drill press
Walt

cl5man
01-22-2003, 10:38 PM
Well, I finally got one of the pins out. I did drill a hole on each side to keep my orientation. Why couldn't I just make some semi-press fit strait pins to install or is there a reason for the taper. Theres also two small bolts, one on each side, on the bottom that I cant seem to get out, rusted and of coure I broke them off. Do these need to be removed before taking the back gear out. Does the back gear shaft press on or should it slide right out through one end. Boy I wish I had some kind of drawing for this thing, I bet it would be pretty obvious how things come apart.

SJorgensen
01-23-2003, 03:30 AM
After I bought my South Bend model A lathe I took it apart for cleaning, checking, and relubing. I remember that tapered pin. I was able to drive mine out with a drift. The only drawings and parts diagrams that I have seen were pretty poor. There are some drawings at the site: http://www.southbendlathe.com/workshop/9gears.htm#Std.%20CG and at http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend9-inch/index.html You may have seen them already. I think if you look it over carefully you'll see how it comes apart and how it goes together. I'm still amazed how well my spindle turns in just a simple oiled cast iron hole. I love my old lathe. If I can find those exploded views I'd be happy to share them with you. I'd like to have some high quality blueprints though if anyone has some.
Spence

DR
01-23-2003, 11:25 AM
My question is why are you taking it apart?

No offense meant, but it seems to me some people take their machines apart because they feel that has to be done to clean them and end doing damage to the machine in the process.

I try to buy good, used machines for use in my business. The one thing that always sours a deal for me is when the seller tells me they've taken it apart and cleaned and repainted it. Very few amateurs have the knowledge or tools and equipment to properly do this.

DR

cl5man
01-23-2003, 08:45 PM
The major reason i'm taking it apart is to make it look decent. Its been sitting outside for the last 27 years and, well its just not up to my standards as far as looks go. I'm glad I did as I've found quite a few things wrong with it. No springs or wipers for the headstock spindle. The back gear cams were so rusted I had to let it soak in motor oil for 3 days before the would rotate in the casting. Even then it took a few good wacks with a rubber mallet. The back gear itself still won't turn on the spindle a full 360'. Another night of socking will hopefully cure that. I think this alone warrants a teardown and cleaning. I don't know about you "DR" but its not rocket science to drive out pins, it's just a pain in the ### when the pins have rusted themselves to the casting. Anyway I'll look at it again tonight and hopefully figure something out.

John Foster
01-23-2003, 10:13 PM
The rear screw is to set the depth of engagement of the backgear. It must be removes before you can take the shaft out as it sits in a groove. The front has a spring and brass slug to put tension on the shaft and to hold it in place when engaged. You can probably take the shaft out without getting that one out but you will still need it out for proper operation. The shaft on a 9" comes out the back once the taper pins are out. Do not rotate the shaft and handle as it will bind up on the eccentric. John

cl5man
01-23-2003, 10:29 PM
Finally got the darn thing out. One more question. Are the two ends supposed to press on the shaft or should it slide on when I put all this back together? Thanks for the help.

SJorgensen
01-23-2003, 10:58 PM
I disagree with DR on this. Sometimes the machine resellers do a fine cosmetic job on a tool to raise it's salability. Their interest isn't quite as pure as the owners is. I think it is fine to buy a greasy ugly tool (better than rusty, but sometimes there is hope)and take it apart, clean and paint it. I think this is especially true for the hobbyest. This is the only way to measure the wear, clean the oil passageways, and do the maintenance that is probably way overdue.

CL5Man, when you remove the spindle, remove it very slowly. There are two spring loaded parts to remove. At the bottom of the headstock rear bearing surface, and front bearing surface (really the bearing surface is just the casting, no babbit or anything, but it works great)there is an oil wick on top of a spring. Mine was worn to the point where it was almost just spring. I just rigged up my own new wicks but I think it is fine. I cleaned the sludge out of all the oilers and in general felt pretty good about the whole process. I was happy to oil the hell out of my cleaned up lathe. Too bad they don't stay cleaned up. I wonder who keeps a clean lathe, and what their favorite tricks are. Because my lathe is in an unheated and often moist garage (rain floods in) I thought I'd make a oiled canvas cover. Does anyone have suggestions? Perhaps I should start a new thread.
Spence

SJorgensen
01-23-2003, 11:14 PM
CL5Man,
If this lathe was outside for 27 years then it might have been set aside for good reasons. Something is likely bent beyond practical repair. I hope you didn't pay much for it and I hope you aren't just cleaning it up for cosmetic reasons to resell it. You really should have someone look it over before you invest much into it. I guess it might depend on how much precision you need or expect. There might be parts available and you might be ok. I've seen some on Ebay. On this I agree with DR. If someone is just cleaning it up for cosmetic reasons, thats of no use. The worst deals are the clean looking screwed up lathes. The first one I bought had a bent spindle.
Spence

Oso
01-24-2003, 01:52 AM
Pretty much every machine I have I have had apart for cleaning and repairs. I guess DR won't buy them, but then I'm not selling either, not now that I have them working so well.

In almost every case, I have found problems that the previous owner created or tolerated. They got fixed. Sometimes I even painted it, but mostly I just fixed the problems the goobers put in.

The "sherwin-williams rebuild" is all over the place on ebay, but most of those "batards a bas" do such a rotten paint job that you can tell. They most always talk it up too.

It sours the deal for me if there is new paint but no evidence of other work, or if the paint job looks poorly done. Not because I want a bad looking unit, but the price seems to rise if the paint is new, no matter any other facts as to wear and so forth.

If I buy a beater, I want it to look and be priced as one.

Jaymo
01-26-2003, 11:28 PM
Yes, completely ruined it. I'll take it off your hands for you.

abn
01-27-2003, 02:32 AM
Just wondered if you've already downloaded a manual for the 9/10K, if not I downloaded one from the U.S. Army LOGSA website.

SJorgensen
01-27-2003, 10:49 PM
Abn could you please help me navigate through the LOGSA site to find that manual? I'm not sure where it is or if special access is required.
Thanks,

Spencer

Thrud
01-28-2003, 12:18 AM
Unlike some of the comments voiced, since it is your machine and you deem it rebuildable don't let them stop you. The rust alone merits the work in my book. But then, I don't throw the baby out just because it poops its pants - I clean it up and rediaper! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

You do the human race credit in refusing to settle for "good enough" and not just throwing it out and buying 3rd. rate garbage.

Pat your self on the back.

BTW
Some taper pins can be bought with the ends drilled & tapped for extraction with a cap screw and an sleeve as a "puller". This prevents peening on high quality bearings.

Oso
01-28-2003, 12:56 AM
Thrud, that is an excellent idea.

And, taper pins if not hardened or too small, can be drilled and presumably tapped.

I had to turn a thread on the end of one to fix the clapperbox for my Atlas shaper. It was not hardened as far as I could tell. At least not beyond what HSS would cut nicely.

You Do have to make a holder sleeve to work on them, but that isn't too hard. And, you will be doing the easy end, the larger.
That thread had to be cut on the small end, so it wanted to push the pin out of the holder sleeve.