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View Full Version : O.T. Kids and lack of machines, school violence



nheng
04-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Just read a morning clip about an averted lunchroom shooting in Winslow Township, NJ.

When are we going to get it into our collective heads that our kids need more than either A) pushing video game buttons or B) sports ?

You've got a generation of young women who sit and watch, chatting among themselves, while the dolts they are with sit elbow to elbow killing, raping and pillaging on the big screen.

Our kids need to get their hands into some REAL things, not just pretty simulations on screen.

Any schools that still have their shops open and active have my heartfelt thanks. I think college prep HS are a big culprit here too as they are frequently devoid of any REAL things to do with your hands. Den

bob308
04-09-2006, 11:42 AM
i have always blamed it on not being able to work on cars. that is waht kept me out of trouble. i was working on my car or working to get money to work on it. or i would help my father work on his truck or car.
now if there is a car in the yard you have a code enforcment officer knocking on the door.

J Tiers
04-09-2006, 11:55 AM
It's probably just an effect of crowding.

When animals are crowded together, they start fighting. That's a way for them to be forced to spread out a bit over more territory. It's why our ancestors came here. it's why there are tribal people living in inhospitable areas.

There isn't any more room.

Look for fighting etc to get worse.

Kansas_Farmer
04-09-2006, 12:02 PM
No room?? Pffft...

There are more counties today in "fly over country" (Read: Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, SD, ND) that are classified as 'frontier'* than 120 years ago. There's plenty of abandoned homesteads, homes and other living quarters available where I'm at. Problem is, ya can't make any $$$ out here and living in this area might actually require some WORK.

The space is available for anyone who wants it.


*Frontier is a governmental classification term based on population.

Fasttrack
04-09-2006, 03:05 PM
I am a high-school kid - 17 years old - and i absolutely agree. Generally speaking i'm in the AP/honors route for classes and such so most of my friends aren't really the trouble maker types. Nevertheless, it surprises me that some of my friends who can memorize equations and etc and absolutely rock at math really stink in physics and other courses that require some common sense and practical thought. I think its because alot of kids my age start to almost loose touch with reality when they spend the majority of thier time playing video games, sports, or studying.

"now if there is a car in the yard you have a code enforcment officer knocking on the door." :D I've got a total of 6 letters from our homeowner's association about various projects inlcuding forts when i was in elementary school (we were in a new neighborhood so there was plenty of scrap plywood and two by fours to be had), then my two story trebuchet and then my go-karts. Now i've got a '77 chevy truck on my driveway in varying states of driveability. I'm almost affraid to rip into it too much and make it obvious that its not driveable because then i'm certain will get a letter of fine...

TECHSHOP
04-09-2006, 03:56 PM
I kind of agree with the "overcrowding theory" of the schools, when you have too many people in any given area, the increased "friction" results in "I'll get mine, screw the rest" attitude to dominate. Even when they are physically crowded together, most young people are growing up increasingly mentally and emotionally isolated; fewer siblings, extended family, and a general lack of community life.

I chose a place without too many "upity busybody" neighborhood rules, but as more move from the "big city" they bring the "big city" attitudes. It sure ain't a pretty sight when some "new resident" thinks that "popping" off a few 9mm rounds will settle an issue, and the local WWII/Korean vets (mostly) come back with significantly fewer, well placed .30-06 rounds. An armed society is a polite society, no?

Wirecutter
04-09-2006, 05:03 PM
:confused:

Well, someone has to disagree, and this time it looks like it's gonna be me.

I don't think the problem lies with overcrowding. I was in Tokyo for a few days a couple of weeks ago, and if the problem was crowding, I would have returned from a war zone.

As with problem faced by a society or nation, the reasons aren't simple. Regarding the issue of "overcrowding", it's not a cause of violence in Tokyo because of the culture. Everyone is encouraged to be a small and useful part of the society, not a rugged individualist.

Now, combine crowding in a society like the US, and you have other issues. We put a premium on individual rights, being unique, our own personal space, freedom of expression, etc. Overcrowding can have an impact on all these things. So it stands to reason that if these things are more important to you, you might want to avoid big cities.

I suspect that many of the problems we face today stem from people or organizations that don't take personal responsibility. We get blamed for it most in the US, but it's not just us. Sure, there are numerous examples of litigation that point this out. But I'm not inclined to let Zacharius Mussoui slide for his part in the 9/11 conspiracy just because he had a lousy childhood. I don't think the problems of the Palestinians are entirely caused by the US and Israel. Anyone remember a guy named Arafat?

I don't think Columbine was caused by violent video games, the NRA's lobbying interests, or people that annoy Michael Moore. How about some parents that were asleep at the switch? How about some really screwed up kids?

Is it just me, or have a lot of people become a little to PC and "sensitive"?

PTSideshow
04-09-2006, 05:39 PM
After spending 31 years working in a school system. I can tell you the biggest problem is the parents. Parents not teaching right or wrong. Parents not explaining that the stuff in the movies and TV is make believe. ECT. I can't tell you how many times I have been told by a parent that you don't have to tell a child that they should stay out of the street, off of somebody elses property!
They looked at me like I was nuts when I would tell them that children do not know right from wrong with out being told and explain things to them.
Most parents are to busy worring who is doing what to whom on the lastest sit com or sports jerk

Kansas_Farmer
04-09-2006, 05:44 PM
I kind of agree with the "overcrowding theory" of the schools, when you have too many people in any given area, the increased "friction" results in "I'll get mine, screw the rest" attitude to dominate. Even when they are physically crowded together, most young people are growing up increasingly mentally and emotionally isolated; fewer siblings, extended family, and a general lack of community life.

I chose a place without too many "upity busybody" neighborhood rules, but as more move from the "big city" they bring the "big city" attitudes. It sure ain't a pretty sight when some "new resident" thinks that "popping" off a few 9mm rounds will settle an issue, and the local WWII/Korean vets (mostly) come back with significantly fewer, well placed .30-06 rounds. An armed society is a polite society, no?

HEHEHEHE!!! I like the way this guy thinks!! Amen brother. A FEW, Well Placed .30-06 rounds, from say..an M1, would definately solve at least 8 problems.

IOWOLF
04-09-2006, 06:23 PM
BTW Kansas farmer, Kudos on the Right to carry bill in Ne.

chief
04-09-2006, 07:14 PM
Parents and the education are to blame, Kids are taught to demand all kinds of nonsense to build their self-esteem, they are taught that they should be given respect but have no idea of what the concept means ( I can do and say what I want but if you do it to me that's disrespectful).
Children are not allowed to be kids either because of silly safety rules ( bicycle helemts etc, these tend to give children a false sense of security which leads to not learning that stupid thing hurt and you shouldn't do them).
And then we have teachers who don't care if 7 year old johnny can read so long as he is aware that it's ok to be a fag even though he doesn't know what a fag is. There is also the teaching practice of demanding kids be put on drugs rather than enforcing discipline.

nheng
04-09-2006, 08:40 PM
Wirecutter, Your comments on Japanese high density living is exactly what crossed my mind ... both China and Japan live in high density family apartments and you don't see them slaughtering each other.

Both of those countries STILL raise kids with ENORMOUS respect for the family and elders. We are almost devoid of respect in this country.

It's said to watch Chinese friends of mine trying to raise their teens with those same old values and then watch those kids absorb the crap behavior that their "native" peers demonstrate to them.

Bob308, I agree that working on cars helped lots of kids back when. First you had to get it running, then you had to fix the rust holes, then you had to get it running again ;) Then you had to work, or get back to work, to pay for the Bondo and finance your trips to the junkyard.

Den

Scottike
04-09-2006, 09:18 PM
I believe that it's not a matter of overcrowding, or social pressure, it's a simple matter of Manners! When I was a much younger lad, if I, or one of my friends stepped out of line, we were jumped on by the nearest adult in the neighborhood. Sometimes, depending on the offense, we were dragged by an earlobe to the nearest parent to be dealt with. But, the bottom line is that we were taught to respect other people and their property. It boils down to a simple matter of respect for others and things that don't belong to you. If the law would allow it, any adult should be able call down any child under the age 18 for misbehaviour. But that Will Never Happen these Days!

speedy
04-09-2006, 09:21 PM
I see the same deterioration occuring here. There are a lot of reasons for this I suppose, the main one IMO are the breeders who we would term "parents". The social security trap that rewards illegitimate breedlines is still providing more than adequate income to solos, many with partners who exist in the shadows.
"I have rights dontcha know. responsibilities? that is what the state owes me"
The dog eat dog mentality is a factor.There is so much more.
All I know is that my wife and I have brought our children up as best we can and despite our best efforts they have turned out OK. Some of it is to our credit; the rest lies in the decisions that our offspring have made as individual beings .

Ken

charlie coghill
04-09-2006, 09:27 PM
There is also the teaching practice of demanding kids be put on drugs rather than enforcing discipline.
__________________
Putting kids on the drugs is a way of dealling with the kid that has not been taught displine at home. The school is afraid to thouch the kid becuase of the parents and lawsuites. Parents are afraid to touch the kid becuase of the child severices.

This is interesting as my son teaches in a private school part time and is a corrections officer at the prision. What a combination! We were just talking about this this morning.

He has a stepson (7yrs old) that was having some problems in the public school. They had a meeting with the school counselor, the counselor suggested that maybe a visit to a Dr. and some drugs would help. The son moved the kid into the priviate school and now he has settled down and his grades have inproved. He just needed to be in a situation where they would not take any bull.


Now many of you that have children would get all upset if the school spanked your child? I don't mean beat him just a few swats with a belt.Think about it.

Personaly I think that the problem starts at home and at birth of the kid as they are learning form day one.
This has been my rant.

TECHSHOP
04-09-2006, 10:35 PM
I typed a great post about the "nature verses nurture" aspect of this, future generations, our small part in the "civilization experiment", how I (usually divided self) also agree in part with the other side, different from my other post. But the internet gremlins sucked it to random bits, I'm going to get a shower and go to sleep. I don't feel much like being a late night referee, I will let the ones more sure of their position to battle it out; goodnight, gentlemen.

J Tiers
04-09-2006, 10:42 PM
Wirecutter, Your comments on Japanese high density living is exactly what crossed my mind ... both China and Japan live in high density family apartments and you don't see them slaughtering each other.

Both of those countries STILL raise kids with ENORMOUS respect for the family and elders. We are almost devoid of respect in this country.
Den

I was only partly serious in mentioning the overcrowding aspects, although that IS true. It's true of rats and its true of people

And, what your statement above says is only partly true now, the crime problem in Japan is increasing.

The price you pay for overcrowding is incredible rudeness and "polite" ignoring of many things..... You can be in a crowd and yet be "unseen".

The crime problem in china..... well lets say it has never been particularly tame there, depending on where you go, of course.
They DO (or have) slaughter each other, but its more gang warfare. WE don't have THAT sort of thing here...... :rolleyes:

Naturally parents are much of the problem. Parents, and movies and TV and a host of other things that cannot be stopped in a free society. Any evening on TV you can see a dozen murders, with detailed explanations of how to perform those murders, and quite a bit of glorification of the murderers.

That isn't how to keep society together.

Look at the pursuit of the "extreme". Stop and think, WHY are new "extreme" things popular? Because almost everything else has already been done..... and so many things are restricted and confined and have "covenants" controlling them, so much is common and "just like your stodgy old parents" .

Those parents themselves did crazy things when they were young, mostly things that now have "zero tolerance" rules against them.

Crime and social unrest is a bit like entropy, societies fall apart unless energy is expended to keep them together.

But, also, some way has to be allowed for the young to expend energy and excercise their in-built need to be different.

Which brings us back to crowding..... Crowded societies need conformity, rule-following, restrictions, limits, etc. All things young people are programmed to evade and disobey. Yes, even Japanese kids... they just have diofferent ways of showing it.

What do you get? Well, in the limit you get "clockwork orange"..... We already have seen some of that right here at home, and elsewhere.

Settlement (concentration) camp muslims become suicide bombers. Inner city kids become gang members, needing to be "made" by a killing......

Movies and TV portray a "reality" which they then promote.... making more kids consider things they hadn't previously..... making it look good..... music isn't helping either....

hope you enjoy the ride........


Would "something to do" help? Sure.... but it needs glorification.

Kids want validation from their peers. If the peers are in a gang, well....... If their peers value a hot car, well again....... although in many areas, a hot car won't last long, it will be "hot" another way real soon, unless the owner is himself "bad" enough that everyone is scared to mess with it.

wdtom
04-09-2006, 10:47 PM
I agree with J Tiers, over population, is the cause, direct or indirect, to many of the problems we have if you think about it. It will get worse.

Scishopguy
04-09-2006, 11:09 PM
I agree, the parents and the school system are to blame for producing kids that have just "taken up space in school." They aren't happy and they realize that all the awards they get for the most minor achievements are worth nothing. I have always resented the idea that government has a duty to protect all of us from the most minor of dangers. I call this the "Foam Rubber World Syndrome." By removing all of the little hazards from a child's daily life they remove the learning that keeps them from making larger mistakes that may be harmful or fatal later in life. The schools are full of this "Foam Rubber" attitude. It has extended to our state and local governments too. We have all the codes and covenants in our towns and cities unless we are lucky enough to live in the boonies. The liberals down here in Florida were in a panic when we passed the permit to carry, about 10 or so years ago. They said it would be like the old west with shootouts in the streets every day. Wrong-O!!! Crime dropped like a shot. The criminals don't know who's packing and who isn't. Crime is fun until there is a real possibility that you might get killed doing it.

Jim (KB4IVH)

Jack Burns
04-09-2006, 11:50 PM
http://www.amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm

http://www.amren.com/color.pdf

speedy
04-10-2006, 01:04 AM
I have watched a couple of parent/children reality programs out of curiosity.
I could not believe the ignorance and lack of basic parenting skills that the "parents" exhibited. They had absolutely no idea, and allowed their children total free reign :eek: and were confused as to why their children were uncontrollable.

There is no recognised " rite of passage" into adulthood in the modern western world. In its` absence our children will define their own and do.
Ken

J Tiers
04-10-2006, 01:56 AM
And, for added interest, think back to the TV shows of the 60's and 70's....

How many were a sort of put-down of dads? Quite a few.......

So, let's see, we show complete families and fathers in a bad or ridiculous light..... on mass media.........

Then we wonder why families are not solid?

And of course there are some "studies" that indicate shows like that, or gratuitous vioolence, or whatever social engineering the Hollywood types wish to push this year, have zero influence on any societal opinions....... Hah...... BS, if you buy that you'll buy anything.

Michael Moore
04-11-2006, 02:19 AM
I don't think Columbine was caused by violent video games, the NRA's lobbying interests, or people that annoy Michael Moore.

Actually, there are a lot of people that annoy me, and the world would be a far far better place without them.

But the list of usual suspects is very long, and HSM doesn't have the bandwidth to host it. :)

cheers,
Michael

IOWOLF
04-11-2006, 04:49 AM
Must be rough to be you.

Michael Moore
04-11-2006, 12:48 PM
Actually, it isn't. :) It sure looks like it is rough being a lot of other people though.

cheers,
Michael

Evan
04-11-2006, 01:17 PM
Everyone is encouraged to be a small and useful part of the society, not a rugged individualist.


True, but it goes much further than mere encouragement. It is ingrained in the culture and has been for many centuries. An old Japanese saying, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down" applies to how they feel about anybody that doesn't conform.

As for the Chinese, they have lived under absolute imperial rule for millenia. They still do. They know better than to make themselves too visible individually. It isn't good for the prospect of having a long and happy life. That however is changing, as is Japan.

As with chickens and rats, if you put to many together in a cage they start to eat each other. People aren't that much different. The history of the east Asian continent isn't one of densely packed populations living in harmony. It's one of aggresive imperialist conquest in centuries past. The mongols under Ghengis Khan extended east Asian power as far as central Europe. The imperialist activities of modern day Japan don't need elaborating.

J Tiers
04-11-2006, 01:49 PM
The imperialist activities of modern day Japan don't need elaborating.

And it isn't new.... before the closure of Japan, they had invaded Korea at least once, and I believe twice. There is still one palace building in Seoul which is pre-invasion, the Japanses burned the rest back in IIRC the 1500's.

What many do not realize is that even though some cultures suppress some types of individualist behaviour, it isn't gone. It finds other ways of expression.

And, spcifically in Japan, samurai were hardly good conformists and loyal followers. They regularly swapped sides, and valued individuality.

psomero
04-11-2006, 08:54 PM
Just read a morning clip about an averted lunchroom shooting in Winslow Township, NJ.

When are we going to get it into our collective heads that our kids need more than either A) pushing video game buttons or B) sports ?

You've got a generation of young women who sit and watch, chatting among themselves, while the dolts they are with sit elbow to elbow killing, raping and pillaging on the big screen.

Our kids need to get their hands into some REAL things, not just pretty simulations on screen.

Any schools that still have their shops open and active have my heartfelt thanks. I think college prep HS are a big culprit here too as they are frequently devoid of any REAL things to do with your hands. Den





as a kid who was raised on nintendo and has owned EVERY major system except for the xbox, i can tell you it's not the video games at fault. it's the damn schools. the standards of "education" are downright pitiful today.

take the california high school exit exam for example. the test involves BASIC skills the kids were supposed to learn in JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL, yet there is a large majority of kids who fail the first few times and a significant number of HS seniors this year will not graduate due to it. then they fight it by suing to get the test thrown out. they should be suing their former teachers for gross incompetence and/or negligence.

i'm thankful for the few real teachers i've come across in my life while struggling through the california public education system. the others, though, are atrocious. some of my HS teachers would not be qualified to be babysitters, let alone teachers...

Wirecutter
04-13-2006, 11:05 AM
Actually, there are a lot of people that annoy me, and the world would be a far far better place without them.

But the list of usual suspects is very long, and HSM doesn't have the bandwidth to host it. :)

cheers,
Michael

Michael -
Respectfully, I don't think you were the Michael Moore I was referring to... Or are you? :eek:

-M

J Tiers
04-13-2006, 02:27 PM
Hmmm....

I suspect that machine shops in schools would be seen, aside from the fact that they put kids "at risk for severe injuries", as a way for kids to make weapons.

Its a fact that shop teachers have reported right here attmpts to make knives, brass knuckles, and various types of drug paraphernalia.

"Bowling for brass knuckles" anyone? Maybe "Bowling for bongs"?

Just putting shop back in schools isn't the answer. There are some societal changes as to accepted behaviours and role models that have to happen.

Maybe the only thing that would work is targeted strikes on the TV, film and music industries. There are probably fewer than 5,000 or 10,000 people that are the main problem. Possibly less, but I doubt it. The principal folks who are peeing in the pool because they can.

Not that I am advocating violence, you understand........ but it is an interesting academic consideration.

Michael Moore
04-13-2006, 09:13 PM
Michael -
Respectfully, I don't think you were the Michael Moore I was referring to... Or are you? :eek:

-M

Probably not, though I can't imagine why anyone would want to talk about all those other guys with my name. I don't think any of them has a nice lathe or mill.

:)

cheers,
Michael

nheng
04-13-2006, 09:31 PM
JT said: "I suspect that machine shops in schools would be seen, aside from the fact that they put kids "at risk for severe injuries", as a way for kids to make weapons."

I see this fear factor every day and it is going to ruin our country. On one hand, you have those preaching it, generally fearful of being sued and on the receiving end, you have those who not only believe it (beyond normal training and respect for machines) but also extending that fear to any other unknown machine, tool, material, chemical, process or you name it. Add to that the need for all of the proper papers and training to be in place. The effect is similar to and along the lines of "paralysis by analysis", one of my favorite lines from an older associate.

We are becoming a nation of idiots, guided by incompetent politicians and ruled by lawyers. I have grave concerns for the USA that our children will have to deal with. What makes matters worse is that you don't see ANY PROGRESS being made to improve the situation. Too many other distractions.

Making weapons is, of course, the latest thing which fits that fear factor list nicely. The PM forum had a thread a few weeks back from a gentleman from Russia who indicated that machine tools were not permitted before the breakup and that it was possibly because of the Soviet fear of weapons production.

J Tiers
04-13-2006, 10:18 PM
Yep, its all dangerous, if it isn't safe for a 2 year old.

A chemical dump site across the river was described on the TV news as including "dangerous chemicals like drums of phosphoric acid"..........

Which is a component of cola drinks, among other things...........

Naturally the concentration is important, but on my scale of horrible to not very nice chemicals, that doesn't even register.....

I would have corrected them but the chances of it making any difference are slim to none..... the headlines are just too good the other way, and a correction would not even have been suppressed, it would not have been even heard byt the newspeople.

wierdscience
04-14-2006, 01:36 AM
Don't worry,it's just the bottom end of a long doward spiral.

We worship whatever is vile,vulgar and perverse and call it normal.

It is illegal to spank a child,but perfectly okay to kill one before it is born.

We allow our children to worship rockstars,rap artists,actors,actresses and sports stars who are drug addicts,whores and perverts,yet these same people are allowed to make more money than all the scientists and engineers of the world combined.

We have taken away time honored concepts of morality,punishment,responsibility and respect and replaced them with laziness,disrespect and moral equivilence.

No,it's society that is at fault and as it stands now it will be our un-doing.

Scishopguy
04-14-2006, 12:16 PM
From what I have observed, it is all about the lack of personal responsability. THe lawyers have taught the kids that nothing is ever your fault. You can always blame someone or something else. I really like that "paralysis by analysis" as it so aptly describes the Professor mentality of the ones I used to work for. Sheesh!!! they couldn't decide if they wanted sugar in their coffee, let alone any important stuff.

Jim (KB4IVH)

Fix America, put a bounty on lawyers!