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CCWKen
04-13-2006, 07:06 PM
Anyone know about the OLD Toledo Punch Presses? I'm going to pickup a No. 4 Saturday and need to know about what it weighs. Also capacity and any other info you have. It looks like it was flat-belt driven but I'm not sure. It's just another piece of history I plan to restore and put back to work.

Thanks, Ken

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Tools/Punch%20Press/Toledo4PunchPress.jpg

Ries
04-13-2006, 09:36 PM
I found a cross reference to Bliss presses, in one of my old books, which says a no. 4 toledo is equivalent to a no. 20B Bliss, which is a 30 ton press, which was originally fitted with a 3hp motor. Cant find the overall weight. But my guess is that is it easily weighs 2000 to 3500lbs. Some of the OBI presses in this tonnage weigh as much as 6000lbs. There is a lot of cast iron there.
This is an OBI press,- Open Bed Inclinable- which means it can lean back if you want it to- of which there are hundreds of thousands out there- or were, at one time.

CCWKen
04-13-2006, 09:50 PM
Thanks Ries. By the scale of the trailer tire, it looks to be about 6-7 feet tall. :eek:

I hope I get my money's worth. :D

Herm Williams
04-13-2006, 11:00 PM
A friend has a bliss that looks like that. It has double v belts to the motor . Seems to work fine. It is hard to kill one of these old machines. You can get parts for it.
re

Weston Bye
04-13-2006, 11:06 PM
Got any extra fingers you don't need? If you can gather together enough carelessness, that thing will help you get rid of them.:(

Where I work we use stampings, bought from suppliers. Without fail, the reps they send to talk to us about applications share one thing in common: the absence of digits in varying degrees.:eek:

Whatcha gonna stamp out in large quantities on it?

Wes

wierdscience
04-13-2006, 11:49 PM
Whatcha gonna stamp out in large quantities on it?

Wes

Obviously he's considering cornering the market on 1/4" flat washers:D


Out in the weeds somewhere I have the next step down,20 ton I think.

Ries has it right on the wieght,no more than 3500#s,cept OBI means Open Back Inclinable as I remember it.

Missing fingers you bet,oil on them clicker dogs,not grease.An air cylinder/solenoid and a couple palm buttons helps prevent coming up short.

Just out of curiosity,how much did you have to give?

CCWKen
04-13-2006, 11:59 PM
Whatcha gonna stamp out in large quantities on it?

Probably not much in quantity. I'm tired of drilling holes and milling slots for bumper brackets. I'm hoping this will punch a slot in 3/8". I do quite a few one-off brackets in everything from 10ga. to 1/4" too.

Besides, I didn't have the heart to see this ole machine go to salvage. ;)

As far as dangers, there's plenty of other power hammers and shears around here to keep me scared enough to watch my fingers. :D

CCWKen
04-14-2006, 12:05 AM
1/4" flat washers? Naw, I make those on my little Whitney-Jensen.

Price?.... About a $0.01/lb. :cool:

Schutzhund
04-14-2006, 02:19 AM
1/4" flat washers? Naw, I make those on my little Whitney-Jensen.

Price?.... About a $0.01/lb. :cool:

I'll take 500 lbs of those 1/4" flat washers. I've searched high and low and nobody can beat your price. Do you think you can get them to me by Monday? :D

Scishopguy
04-14-2006, 12:37 PM
Quote:

Got any extra fingers you don't need? If you can gather together enough carelessness, that thing will help you get rid of them.


You sure got that right, Wes1. When I worked in tool and die, 30 years ago, the plant I worked in had 6 of them. Their "gravy job" was making aluminum gaskets for Monsanto Company's nylon extrusion molds. It was a simple 3 operation job and they produced the things by the thousands a month. All new hires got to run them for a couple of weeks. It kind of weeds out the dufuses real quick. They used tongs to load the parts and had cages around the dies for safety. They broke many a die by stamping a set of tongs in the form die. Never did like working around presses. I was in constant terror for the six months I spent spotting in dies. Too easy to get squashed. We had an old worn out Toledo 150 ton that we called "double hit" because every once in a while it would go through the cycle twice. It got lots of fingers and even a couple hands...ouch!

Jim (KB4IVH)

CCWKen
04-14-2006, 03:36 PM
I'll take 500 lbs of those 1/4" flat washers. I've searched high and low and nobody can beat your price. Do you think you can get them to me by Monday? :D

:lol: I'd like to have those washers too! :D The "price" I was referring to was the cost of the punch. ;) I bet it comes out to less than a penny a pound.

You guys are scaring me now. I've never been closer to one of these punch presses than a picture. :eek: I thought I could figure out how it works but it sounds like the motor runs all the time and you use a clutch to fire the punch. Is this right? How would it close without the motor running? Is the clutch that flaky?

I guess I'll figure it out when it gets here.

DR
04-14-2006, 08:50 PM
Yes, there is a clutch of sorts that actuates when you trip a lever (or foot pedal). The "clutch" is usually a small dog that slides into a slot in the flywheel causing the crank mechanism to turn in conjunction with the flywheel. The rotation of the crank in turn causes the ram to descend to punch or do whatever operation the machine is set up to do.

Newer presses have a mechanism so the machine only strokes once per push of the trip lever, even if you purposely hold the trip lever down. This is a safety feature. Your press looks old enough it may not have this feature, so if you accidently hold the trip lever down a moment too long the press may cycle more than once. The unexpected second stroke of the ram is why lots of old time press operators are called "Lefty".

Your press is back geared so the ram stroke is not tremendously fast, still that unexpected second stroke may come fast enough to be very dangerous. Make sure the working area of the press is guarded so there's no chance of getting a hand in there.

To lower the ram without the motor running is easy. Turn the flywheel by hand while holding the trip lever down.


Punch presses are cool machines. I have several $25 auction specials. They're used for shearing, punching, bending, etc.


One reason punch presses sometimes go for scrap price or less is the lack of OSHA approved controls, things like dual hand buttons so it can't be actuated unless both hands are out of the working area.

tattoomike68
04-14-2006, 09:21 PM
You can put it back in service if you use common sence.

If you saw the machine tools show on the history channel it show the user using tongs to place and withdraw the workpeice, that way the worst that could happen is the tongs get munched and posible damage to the die.

do like the old boys did to run them

Herm Williams
04-15-2006, 12:25 AM
That clutch is similar to a 'T' model, in or out. as above use a guard and two push buttons set up so they both have to be pushed at the same time not one taped down on blocked. foot pedal is very dangerous.
re

IOWOLF
04-15-2006, 09:15 AM
I have seen one with Uni punches in it,it works out well . IIRC, 1/2"inch holes in 3/8" steel X 4 on his unit.

CCWKen
04-15-2006, 09:53 PM
Well, I picked it up today. It's HUGE! It's every bit of 3,000lbs. It's serial number 124 and I don't see any motor pulleys. The large flywheel has a crest so I'm thinking this unit was flat-belt driven. It looks like It could be converted by moving the flywheel out and putting a pulley sheave inboard of the flywheel. There's an old motor mount on top but it looks like it was added. The motor must have been a monster if it was driving a pulley on the outside of the flywheel... or even driving ON the flywheel.

If this is going back in service, I'll have to devise a way to use a single phase motor and maybe a gear reduction box. I've got a few ideas in mind but they'll have to wait until the shop is finished.

One other find on this unit--It has a brake looking setup on the crankshaft opposite the clutch side. There's no linkage to it so I'll have to figure that out too. Appearently, it must have been activated when the pedal was released.

dicks42000
04-15-2006, 11:47 PM
Ken;
Great to see someone giving an old press a good home. For so many years, punch presses were the backbone of N. American manufacturing; doing any kind of punching, bending, folding, coining, dinking (yes, it's really a word), die cutting or drawing job that they could be tooled for.
Now it's done in China or India....
Anyway, as others have said, concoct some guarding and a two-button control system to keep it safe.
Mechanical presses can get by with seemingly quite small motors, since it's really the inertia of the flywheel (stored energy) that does the punching...Also depends on the number of strokes per min. you need. Somewhere I recall some empirical formulas about HP and this....need to look that up if anyone cares.
The brake-thingy may indeed be the clutch...might be a later addition....
As for using a speed reducer...well don't drive the flywheel too slow. (Once again, maybe I should hit the old production engineering handbook to see what those formulae were...) Maybe Bliss has some info available. Do they have a website ? Are they still around ? It's been 28 years since me or my dad had anything to do with punch presses & making chain here in Vancouver....
Good luck with it....Happy Easter All

DR
04-16-2006, 01:35 AM
"It has a brake looking setup on the crankshaft opposite the clutch side"

The brake is to be adjusted so the ram returns to and stops at or near the top dead center after stroking. With this type press the brake maintains a constant "drag" on the crankshaft. Without the brake the ram might overrun top center.

Scishopguy
04-16-2006, 04:06 PM
You don't want to go single phase on this machine. Get a phase converter and use 3phase power. It is going to take about 5 horse or greater to drive it. You can get a kit to build a suitable rotary phase converter off the internet. My kit cost $150 and was easy to build. Just do a search for Phase converter and you should get lots of pages of options. Believe me, your electric bill will be a fraction of what it would be with a single phase.

Jim (KB4IVH)

wierdscience
04-16-2006, 10:30 PM
Ken,that press will work fine with 3hp.Reason being it's backgeared so the flywheel doesn't loose much inertia during a cycle.My Buffalo 85ton iron worker uses a sinilar setup and only carries a 3hp motor.

The belt goes right around the od of the flywheel and the motor pulley should be about 4-5inches in diameter.You can use flat belts if you want it to be original,if not a three groove v-belt sheave and a powerband belt works well.

If you want to use a flat belt and need a pulley e-mail me I got several.

CCWKen
04-16-2006, 10:31 PM
Well.... that's not going to happen. The machine isn't going to be running all day. Maybe a start up and 3-10 cycles is about all I see in it's future. If it were running all day in a production environment then the 3-phase conversion may be worthwhile but I doubt it. The flywheel turns by hand quite easily. It looks to me that a 1hp high-torque start motor should work fine. All I need to do is find out what drive pulley size was used. I'm guessing about 4-5". The flywheel is 28" in diameter and 4" wide.

I got it off the trailer today. Dang! That thing is heavy. With the crawler boom almost straight up and the 1200lb. counter weights out, it was still rocking the crawler. I think it's more than 3,000lbs! It stands 80" tall at the large gear. (Not counting the sheet metal--That will have to be replaced)

After a good dousing with my "special oil", everything moves free except the three clutch dogs. They're still a little sticky but do engage and release. I can turn the flywheel by hand and move it through a cycle. I'll still disassemble it for a good cleaning and painting though. I'm quite satisfied with my investment. Things are looking good! :D

CCWKen
04-16-2006, 10:35 PM
Good grief Darin, we must have been thinking at the same time. :D

You got a deal on a pulley. Watch for an email.