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doctor demo
04-22-2006, 02:36 AM
:eek: for some reason unknown to me my kempsmith mill has decided to lock up.
i initialy thought that the table gib wedged itself , but upon a closer look
that is not the case. i'm not sure exactly how the power is transmitted to the feed screw but even with it disengaged i can't budge the feed screw:confused: i realy am not wanting to start pulling things apart just to find that there was a easier way after my setup was trashed and the whole thing is spread out all over the floor,so if any of you have the inside line i'm all ears.
thanks steve

Herm Williams
04-22-2006, 12:53 PM
Hello
I had the same problem with me Rockwell. After reading the manual a couple of times, found the backgear was remaining in gear (shear pin broke). Just a wild guess, but.
re

doctor demo
04-22-2006, 01:04 PM
Herm, thanks for the reply, i'm not sure what you mean by back gear but from what i can tell the power feed is not engaged and i can't get abig enough cheater pipe on my wrench to break : or fix::any thing.
steve

rockrat
04-22-2006, 01:30 PM
I dont know about kempsmith but, if it has a recirculating (sp?) ball screw, that might be the source. For some unknown reason a mill at a formar job had the axis lock up on it. After disassembly, we found that some damage had happened and one of the balls had (strangly enough) split into a few parts. The whole lot was jamed up tighter than a ducks but. Ended up replacing the screw.

I hope yours is an easier fix.

beckley23
04-22-2006, 11:16 PM
Do you have the feed lever engaged? From your original post it is difficult to tell.
If that mill is like most from that era, there are 2 bevel gears on the screw, that are not keyed to the screw, and they have clutch teeth. These also have a sliding clutch between them, keyed to the screw, and controlled by the shift lever on the front of the saddle. The bevel gears are driven by a 3rd bevel gear mounted in the saddle and directly connected to the feed transmission. These bevel gears are always turning, and the only time motion is transmitted is when the feed lever is thrown one way or the other.
It is possible that you have broken something, and/or the gear teeth are jammed. The only way you are going to find out is to start taking things apart.
Here is a picture of my #4 Cincinnati's saddle, the bevel gears are on the right, sorry this is the best I can do, the bevel gears weren't the object of the shot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/c23.jpg

If that Kemp-Smith is like the other 2 I've seen, you are going to need some heavy lift equipment. They are very heavily built.
Harry

doctor demo
04-23-2006, 03:32 AM
Do you have the feed lever engaged? From your original post it is difficult to tell.
If that mill is like most from that era, there are 2 bevel gears on the screw, that are not keyed to the screw, and they have clutch teeth. These also have a sliding clutch between them, keyed to the screw, and controlled by the shift lever on the front of the saddle. The bevel gears are driven by a 3rd bevel gear mounted in the saddle and directly connected to the feed transmission. These bevel gears are always turning, and the only time motion is transmitted is when the feed lever is thrown one way or the other.
It is possible that you have broken something, and/or the gear teeth are jammed. The only way you are going to find out is to start taking things apart.
Here is a picture of my #4 Cincinnati's saddle, the bevel gears are on the right, sorry this is the best I can do, the bevel gears weren't the object of the shot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/c23.jpg

If that Kemp-Smith is like the other 2 I've seen, you are going to need some heavy lift equipment. They are very heavily built.
Harry
Thanks Harry, i was afraid that i was going to end up doing what i realy did not want to do. i have ten pounds of projects in a nine pound shop already.
The picture as they say is worth a thousand words, even if you didn't run out, tear down your mill just so i could see what i wanted to know.
Steve

doctor demo
04-23-2006, 03:40 AM
I dont know about kempsmith but, if it has a recirculating (sp?) ball screw, that might be the source. For some unknown reason a mill at a formar job had the axis lock up on it. After disassembly, we found that some damage had happened and one of the balls had (strangly enough) split into a few parts. The whole lot was jamed up tighter than a ducks but. Ended up replacing the screw.

I hope yours is an easier fix.
Balls, the busted balls around here aren't on the mill, thanks for the post but i think harry has me on to the root of my problem.

Nutter
04-23-2006, 01:12 PM
What model of Kempsmith do you have? If it's anything like mine, there's a lever in the middle of the saddle. If you move this to the right it should disengage all drive to the long travel of the table and the lead screw should move freely. The lever is directly under the vice in this photo.

http://members.tcq.net/jnutter/CJ2AUboltplates/photos/photo2.jpg

If you have disengaged that lever and you still can't turn the handle, I than I'd have to agree with Beckley 23 that something is broken or jammed.

Is your lead screw locked up solid? Mine still has play due to the slop in the nut, even with the drive lever engaged.

doctor demo
04-24-2006, 02:40 AM
What model of Kempsmith do you have? If it's anything like mine, there's a lever in the middle of the saddle. If you move this to the right it should disengage all drive to the long travel of the table and the lead screw should move freely. The lever is directly under the vice in this photo.

http://members.tcq.net/jnutter/CJ2AUboltplates/photos/photo2.jpg

If you have disengaged that lever and you still can't turn the handle, I than I'd have to agree with Beckley 23 that something is broken or jammed.

Is your lead screw locked up solid? Mine still has play due to the slop in the nut, even with the drive lever engaged.
#2 universal, type G the serial no. stampen in the front of the mach. just below the over ram is 12212 .
It all started while i was making a keyway cut ,all of a sudden "bang" no more feed screw movement , that is when i discovered that it couldn't be budged.
disengaged the drive lever and still locked up tight,found the "bang" it was a pin in the feed trans lever shaft. no big deal,fixed it and was thankful there weren't any gear teeth in need of a dentest. so i (we) have narrowed it down to the sadle or above , but now with the feed screw welded to a gear,nut or clutch i'm puzzeled as to how to get things apart. i have the table top cleared off and now i'm down to the head scratchin.
steve
0

Nutter
04-24-2006, 04:24 PM
The first thing I think of when I encounter a broken shear pin or blown fuse is "what made this happen". From your info, it sounds like something bad happened up under the table.

Mine's not a universal, so I'm not sure where to go for your situation. Removing the table alone with the lead screw locked up doesn't sound feasible. I guess I'd try a couple other things.

First I'd try swiveling the table to see if that would free it up. Sounds like something is wedged in the gears, and I imagine that the center of the gears is also the center of the swivel part that makes yours a universal versus my plain No2 Type G. Maybe you can shake out whatever is in there by doing this.

The second thng I'd try is to either take it apart at the swivel (I've never seen one like yours in person - so I'm not sure if that is possible), or take off the saddle and table as an assembley and see what you can do from there.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

beckley23
04-24-2006, 07:53 PM
Remove the aprons from the table and the screw, next remove the gib. The table is now ready to come off. This is where things get interesting, and forward planning really pays off. Tables are heavy. The 18 X 80 table on my Cincinnati weighs 1500-1800 LBS, the 11 X 58 table on the Lagun weighs approx 400 lbs and the same for my K&T's maybe a little more.
I have a steel dolly approx 2' X 3' that I put bags of oil dry on, such that I can slide the table off the mill onto the bags, adjusting the height of the knee as necessary. For the Cincinnati I used my forklifts, one to catch the table and the other to pull it off the last few inches, after I decided I didn't want to kill my back. It was a dicey operation.
Your table removal will be complicated by the location of the feedscrew, hopefully it is more to one side than the other and the table can be removed from the short side. You do not want to get any of the table weight on the screw, so plan ahead. Work safely. This stuff is heavy.
If at all possible, get a manual for the machine. For some reason, I seem to remember that Kempsmith is still around, at least they were a few years ago.
If you decide to take the machine further apart, really study how it is put together. There is a lot interlocking stuff that needs to come off before something else come comes off.
Here's a link to my Cincinnati adventure;
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/18114.html#000000
Harry

Mcgyver
04-24-2006, 08:22 PM
Harry, enjoyed the link, heavy stuff. I knew it was in a different league from my garage when you made reference to forklifts, plural that is. I've had the table off on my xlo, maybe 400lbs?, used a workmate and it worked well. don't think it want to deal with something that massive though...thanks for sharing the adventure

doctor demo
04-25-2006, 02:44 AM
The first thing I think of when I encounter a broken shear pin or blown fuse is "what made this happen". From your info, it sounds like something bad happened up under the table.

Mine's not a universal, so I'm not sure where to go for your situation. Removing the table alone with the lead screw locked up doesn't sound feasible. I guess I'd try a couple other things.

First I'd try swiveling the table to see if that would free it up. Sounds like something is wedged in the gears, and I imagine that the center of the gears is also the center of the swivel part that makes yours a universal versus my plain No2 Type G. Maybe you can shake out whatever is in there by doing this.

The second thng I'd try is to either take it apart at the swivel (I've never seen one like yours in person - so I'm not sure if that is possible), or take off the saddle and table as an assembley and see what you can do from there.

Good luck, and keep us posted.
I don't know the diff. between a plain and universal ,but if i ever get mine working i would like to find out. I googled my self to death last pm and couldn't find any usefull info , but i did learn how kearny met trecker not that that matters.I tried swing the table ,it does move but not like it should .I just sneered at it a few times when i got home from work, to tired to throw something at it,thought i would try killing my bridgeport copy and possibly get done what i started on the kemp. vert. mill survived the abuse , kemp still giving me dirty looks when my back is turned.

doctor demo
04-25-2006, 02:57 AM
Remove the aprons from the table and the screw, next remove the gib. The table is now ready to come off. This is where things get interesting, and forward planning really pays off. Tables are heavy. The 18 X 80 table on my Cincinnati weighs 1500-1800 LBS, the 11 X 58 table on the Lagun weighs approx 400 lbs and the same for my K&T's maybe a little more.
I have a steel dolly approx 2' X 3' that I put bags of oil dry on, such that I can slide the table off the mill onto the bags, adjusting the height of the knee as necessary. For the Cincinnati I used my forklifts, one to catch the table and the other to pull it off the last few inches, after I decided I didn't want to kill my back. It was a dicey operation.
Your table removal will be complicated by the location of the feedscrew, hopefully it is more to one side than the other and the table can be removed from the short side. You do not want to get any of the table weight on the screw, so plan ahead. Work safely. This stuff is heavy.
If at all possible, get a manual for the machine. For some reason, I seem to remember that Kempsmith is still around, at least they were a few years ago.
If you decide to take the machine further apart, really study how it is put together. There is a lot interlocking stuff that needs to come off before something else come comes off.
Here's a link to my Cincinnati adventure;
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/18114.html#000000
Harry
I must be missing something, or just sleep deprived but if ican't turn the screw i don't know how to remove it. table gib is loose but not out yet it didn't look like it was sturdy enough to use as a pry bar so i left it alone[just kidding] but i do feel more like ido now than i did when this first started.
steve

beckley23
04-25-2006, 08:02 PM
If you can't turn the screw, you still have to get the table off to see what's going on underneath. Remove the brackets(aprons) on the table ends, they are what attaches the screw to the table. You will find bearings incorporated in the aprons to support the screw. Remove the gib entirely. The table is now ready to be removed, there is nothing holding it on the machine and it should slide very easily, if it has been lubed, for a short distance until you get past the balance point. Take a look at the pictures I posted in the link, especially of the assembled mill, the right side apron that is shown. The cone like cover has to removed, which covers the bearing nut for the taper roller bearings on that end, remove the socket head screws holding the apron to the table, and some not so gentle persuassion with a dead blow hammer and that apron will come off, all 60 or so LBS of it. Do the same thing on the other end where the table handwheel is, remove the gib, and that table is ready to come off.
I did some checking in my 1983 Serial Number Reference Book for Kempsmith;
Kempsmith Machine Co.
1819 S 71st ST
P.O. Box 14336
Milwaukee, WI 53214
1-414-476-3628

Apparently the last machine was made in 1973.
Bear in mind the above info is 26 years old.
Harry

beckley23
04-25-2006, 11:30 PM
In the link, the Cincinnati mill in the picture is a "plain" table type. If you look at the saddle, you will see that it is a one piece design, and the table has no provision for swiveling. The little #2 K&T horizontal mill in the background is a "universal" table type. I know it's hard to tell because the Cincinnati is blocking the lower portion of the K&T's saddle assembly, but it is a 2 piece saddle. There is the base that slides on the top of the knee, front to back, and there is the swivel, it is attached to the base, that the table slides in.
If you wanted to make a drill bit, you would set up a universal dividing head that is properly geared to the table's screw, such that the head rotates in a pre-determined ratio, the drills helix angle, to the feed of the table to provide for the twist of the drill's flutes. The table would have to be swiveled to the drill's helix angle, for the cutter, mounted on the horizontal arbor, to properly work.
Harry

doctor demo
05-08-2006, 01:06 AM
In the link, the Cincinnati mill in the picture is a "plain" table type. If you look at the saddle, you will see that it is a one piece design, and the table has no provision for swiveling. The little #2 K&T horizontal mill in the background is a "universal" table type. I know it's hard to tell because the Cincinnati is blocking the lower portion of the K&T's saddle assembly, but it is a 2 piece saddle. There is the base that slides on the top of the knee, front to back, and there is the swivel, it is attached to the base, that the table slides in.
If you wanted to make a drill bit, you would set up a universal dividing head that is properly geared to the table's screw, such that the head rotates in a pre-determined ratio, the drills helix angle, to the feed of the table to provide for the twist of the drill's flutes. The table would have to be swiveled to the drill's helix angle, for the cutter, mounted on the horizontal arbor, to properly work.
Harry
Thanks to all for the advice and help with my problems. Sorry it took so long for me to get back to all of you ,been way to busy for my own good.
Found the problem and the cause of the broken shear pin,fixed that quickly[the shear pin] and then started to tear down the table.The kemp that i have only has a removeable apron on the rt. side, the l. side is part of the table casting. on the rt. side apron is a reduction gear housing with a cluster gear on a counter shaft. When everything is working you can turn the hand crank on the l. side of the of the table and it is one to one with the screw, and about three to one on the rt. side crank due to the gear set up.Well i pulled the crank then the housing bolts ,got out the brass hammer and tapped the housing ,counter shaft and cluster gear off of the apron leaving the end of the screw exposed with a gear pinned to the screw and another gear next to it that is SUPPOSED to turn freely on the screw shaft thus giving you the gear reduction benefits through the cluster gear asy. well i dont know if this is stock or an option on this model or a retro fit from some place else but i can't find any provision for oil to get from any externaly accessable oil holes to this gear that appears to have become one with the bushing [if it has one] and the screw shaft. sort of a simple yet embarassing find, but everything works fine as long as i leave the gear housing off of the apron. i will need to eventualy pull that gear and fix the problem but for now i have put everything else backtogether and am up and running.

So once again ,thanks to all
steve

Nutter
05-08-2006, 10:57 PM
Thanks for posting. Mine has the gear setup on the right side too. I belive it's factory. I've got three places to oil that setup. There's a set screw in the table that I remove and put oil on the hole. There's an open hole on the front right of the casting that I squirt oil into. Lastly, there's the oiler cap on the outboard bearing.

doctor demo
05-10-2006, 02:50 AM
Thanks for posting. Mine has the gear setup on the right side too. I belive it's factory. I've got three places to oil that setup. There's a set screw in the table that I remove and put oil on the hole. There's an open hole on the front right of the casting that I squirt oil into. Lastly, there's the oiler cap on the outboard bearing.
im glad you know what i was trying to describe it helps when someone has the same part to look at to make my description make sense. i have'nt tried to pull that stuck gear off yet, but i would be interested to know what type of bushing if any it has and how it comes apart when it isn't ''welded '' to the part it suppose to turn freely on.
i also have the same oiling setup on mine but can't tell how oil finds its way into where i obviously have no oil now .
thanks, steve