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Millman
05-15-2006, 04:07 PM
This forum branches out in all directions at all times. Makes for interesting mix of ideas and cultures, ways of being trained and at what levels of machining skills. Now..that is a GOOD thing. If you want diversity in ideas, why do some members act like they worship only a few members opinions. I don't know how you guys were trained. The whole point of having the pride of being a Machinist is learning everything you can. Seems some members only trust 3-4 members opinions and will agree with them no matter how far out in "left field they are. Let me ask you a question. In this line of endeavor or trade....how are you going to be your best if you follow only a few member's beliefs?? From what I have read, only a small percentage have actually had "Hand's On" several years experience, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that members may think that that was their trade. Very large difference between someone who talks as compared to people that actually live it, and that's what makes it fun! How would you rather live..worship a person who has never even seen you or your machines, or tell us about your own experiences? I'm an old fart who had the REAL machinists and Tool and Die makers scream in my face if I missed a hole diameter and location even by >001-.002. Learned alot, but also learned that there are NO experts in this ever-changing trade. SOOO, get in here and spill your guts. What are you waiting for..PEER aproval? Trust me, that will never happen. Just be yourself.. because you're gonna' have a hard time convincing me that you know what you're talking about. Just kidding, I would like to hear from all. So, over and out , and PLAY SAFE, Machinery has no Conscience!

John Stevenson
05-15-2006, 04:19 PM
Just be yourself.. because you're gonna' have a hard time convincing me that you know what you're talking about.

Very true, I have a hard time convincing myself I know what I'm talking about ;):D

.

Evan
05-15-2006, 04:27 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what millman wants to know.

black powder
05-15-2006, 04:28 PM
It seams that I tend to follow the advice of a parson who has some verified experiance on the question & problem that i have. Some of the people on the form have shown their ability via.pictures ,answers to questions,general consideration of problems people have with machine questions ,Not smart A$$ replys. The bbs. should be a place to enjoy ,and communicate with people you have a connection with.

Leigh
05-15-2006, 05:12 PM
...and PLAY SAFE, Machinery has no Conscience!
This is my one gripe, if you will, with hobby machinists. They learn how to operate the machines, what each of the levers do, how hard you can push it before you break something, etc.

But they don't learn anything about safety. These machines want to kill you. That's what they live for. It's the one accomplishment that will win them undying admiration and adoration from other machines... killing a human :D

Please, guys... I've seen too many experienced machinists walking around sans important appendages :eek:

Rustybolt
05-15-2006, 06:50 PM
One small correction."These machines want to kill you."

Like my old man used to say(god bless him) "It's just a dumb piece of iron.It can't think. If you get hurt it'll be your fault. So keep your eyes open and pay attention."

Funny how those words come back to you while you run for a band-aide.

Leigh
05-15-2006, 07:10 PM
"It's just a dumb piece of iron.It can't think.
Nothing against your dad, but he hasn't met the machines that I've met :D

HWooldridge
05-15-2006, 07:30 PM
I'm 47 and no professional machinist but have been making things with my hands - metal and otherwise - since I was a small child. I was fortunate to have a father and grandfather who let me use most any tool (except the table saw), so I was hammering nails when I was 6 and making silver jewelry by the time I was in middle school. I was making functional boomerangs when I was 10 or so - only because I got interested in it and wanted to build ones that worked. I did hobby gunsmithing in college for a few friends who were police or corrections officers then moved on to machine tools and blacksmithing in my 20's. I later worked in the injection molding business for 18 years and was exposed to real tool and die makers who worked to half thou tolerances all day long.

Something I see in any trade or hobby are the "experts". These are typically people who have a small amount of info - correct or otherwise - who feel compelled to share it as gospel. Sometimes, these people suddenly become recognized by others who came to the party later than they did. For example, I know a fellow who was a jeweler by trade and started studying ornamental blacksmithing rather late in life. He saw a particular type of tool used at a demo by a nationally known artist and decided to buy one. A short time later, he was being paid to demo and stating in his presentation that he had set up hundreds of these tools in his career. Those of us who had previously known him were aware of the truth - but some of his students now walk around spouting nonsense about his credentials. That doesn't mean that his information or presentation is incorrect but a definite "spin" has been imparted to reality.

A great deal of any trade or craft is common sense and basic mechanics but the major differences between the professional and the hobbyist are the daily repetition and tricks-of-the-trade. I can now use a table saw without asking permission but I can't set it up as fast or use it as efficiently as a professional carpenter.

Your Old Dog
05-15-2006, 07:51 PM
This is my one gripe, if you will, with hobby machinists. They learn how to operate the machines, what each of the levers do, how hard you can push it before you break something, etc.

But they don't learn anything about safety. These machines want to kill you. That's what they live for. It's the one accomplishment that will win them undying admiration and adoration from other machines... killing a human :D

Please, guys... I've seen too many experienced machinists walking around sans important appendages :eek:

I was always told to respect your equipment but if you are afraid of it then you clearly don't understand how to use it and shouldn't be using it.

Who is it that won't listen to you millman?

Leigh
05-15-2006, 08:16 PM
I was always told to respect your equipment but if you are afraid of it then you clearly don't understand how to use it and shouldn't be using it.
A healthy respect for the ability of a 5 HP lathe to shred the operator does not constitute fear. It's a simple understanding of the laws of physics. I was not suggesting being afraid of anything. And I certainly do know how to use my tools.

ASparky
05-15-2006, 08:21 PM
All true, BUT...

The hobiest often sometimes or something has different needs and priorities. As a proffesional machinist I would use a CNC lathe, as a hobiest I might use a Myford. As a proffesional I would use a 18" chop saw, as a hobiest I use a horizontal bandsaw.

The point is that often hobiests will be content with a slower cheaper way. And often will be happy to make a machine rather than buy one, just cause they can. Even if it costs nearly the same as a second hand one, may not last as long, may not do as heavy a cuts, may take four times as long to setup and do to the same accuracy etc.

It may also be small enough to fit in the closet they have as a workshop, while the 36" lathe they can have for cartage costs won't.

So the proffesional working to 1/2 thou is very much worth listening to and appreciated, the "expert" advice is not always approriate.

I do have tool envy, I would like a large barn with a huge lathe, bridgeport etc but in the mean time...

mklotz
05-15-2006, 08:22 PM
Something I see in any trade or hobby are the "experts". These are typically people who have a small amount of info - correct or otherwise - who feel compelled to share it as gospel. Sometimes, these people suddenly become recognized by others who came to the party later than they did.


That's a very incendiary statement with some rather nasty implications.

Can you give us some examples FROM THIS FORUM where this has, in your estimation, happened?

JRouche
05-15-2006, 08:46 PM
Well, I do know everything about one member here and that is me. What I know about him is he dont know JACK about machining or machine tools so steer clear of that jerky ..... :D JRouche

torker
05-15-2006, 09:07 PM
Is this some kind of jealousy thing?
BTW....I just did a Google search "Forrest Addy" Pretty damn impressive!
Russ (I listen to almost anyone!)

charlie coghill
05-15-2006, 09:46 PM
Torker, did you find woodcenteral and the stories by Grandpa Augustus, they are kind of funny:D. They are writed by Forrest. Forrest seems to have a lot of tallent, wished that I had some of it.

HWooldridge
05-15-2006, 11:31 PM
No, Marv - was not directed specifically at anyone here. If you read my entire paragraph, I provided the example...and it is someone I know personally - not through this forum.

CCWKen
05-16-2006, 12:44 AM
There's a few on this board who's word I would accept as near gospel. ;) That doesn't keep me from challenging their thoughts though. My pet peeve is the bandwagon antics that crop up once in a while simply because someone of "stature" says it's so and I know a process can be done another way with equal or better success. But hey, if friends can disagree and still get a long, it shows a genuine fondness for the art of machining.

The hardest part about answering someones question is not knowing what equipment is available in their shop or their level of experience. Many answers are based on a fully equipped machine shop with a professional at the controls when few on this board follow that description in a home or small shop. Even so, I still think this board is the best available for machining information and camradery.

I don't always do things "right" but I sure like to do it "perfect". :D

J Tiers
05-16-2006, 01:43 AM
This forum is a bit less susceptible to the "internet expert" syndrome than some.

That is where someone does know some things, probably, but then is assumed, by himself and others, to therefore know everything, or at least so much that others should never question his statements. (yes, it usually IS a "him".)

I am probably an "expert" at what I do, which I have been at, one way or another, for pay or otherwise, for almost 40 years (not machining). But, that does not mean that I cannot mistype, misunderstand a question, go off on a wrong tangent, or for some other reason be just plain flat wrong about something, particularly if I speak first and think later.

That is a lesson that many need to learn about themselves. Most of the "experts" on machining who visit here are well aware of that.

Another thing that some need to learn is that there ARE really experts, who DO know what they are talking about, and that it's OK to question them..... BUT it is also best to listen and see if they might be right, too.

That comes into play when amateurs who discover some goofy backwards way to do something, run across someone who KNOWS about that subject, and explains what is really going on..

If they are smart, they will listen. If not, they will argue and gripe and explain how they really are right after all, etc, etc..... it is a common problem.

On some boards where the entrenched "experts" are well supported, crazy things that are well known to be wrong, are put forth by the "experts" and then saluted by everyone else. Anyone who questions the misconceptions is then shouted down, or, on some boards, just banned.

Not like that here. That is good.

SJorgensen
05-16-2006, 01:47 AM
I'm glad that I don't have to worry about anyone's opinions of my experience or "expertise." I'm just glad that everyone here can feel free to express themselves with whatever observations or degrees of experience that they have. This shouldn't be an intimidating place where only the "experts" can talk. I don't think that it has been. I really appreciate the way that our more experienced people have expressed themselves. I never have I read a condescending post (well almost never.) This is a place for home-shop machinists who value professional advice very highly. However I've found that some of the most educated folks I've ever met are not assembly-line machinists. The value of a man's advice hinges entirely on his desire to learn, and the number of years that he has been at learning it.

One of my very good friends retired after a career maintaining FAA radars. As far as I know he was never a professional machinist, and yet he knows more about milling machines, milling bits, welders, and the properties of metal than most anyone I've ever met. Another friend has a great interest in tig welding and the properties of alloys and a very great number of things. My best friends are semi-retired or retired and they have a such wealth of knowledge to share even if they weren't "professional" machinists. Just like that, I want to hear all opinions and observations from people who are, or who are not "professionals." There are a great number of very knowledgeable "lurkers" that read this website, but they don't chime in because they feel shy or inadequate or whatever. Maybe they worry about critisisms like the original post. I think they are all great potential resources that just need to be encouraged to share the knowledge. It doesn't have to be from an "expert." We each have to weigh the value of everything we read. Some will be jems and some will be stones.

torker
05-16-2006, 02:16 AM
Torker, did you find woodcenteral and the stories by Grandpa Augustus, they are kind of funny:D. They are writed by Forrest. Forrest seems to have a lot of tallent, wished that I had some of it.
Charlie, I just brushed over the Titles. Was in a hurry to get to the shop(learned how NOT to use a new spin index).
I've read a few of Forrests articles in the HSM magazine, some of them quite involved and very well written.
Forrest, Sir John, Evan and others here spend many hours contributing to these boards. I listen to them first. They spend all the time to take pictures, go through the photobucket (or whatever) hassle and (or)post up the info.
They and others that spend all this time are a true tribute to places like this.
Until someone has gone through all the crap of taking step by step pics, then editing the pics, transfering them to a host, etc. etc. etc. then maybe they should step back and quit the crap.
I don't actually see the point of this whole thread.
IMO it is aimed at a few people that someone new here doesn't like...that is all.
There has been the continuing cry for lurkers to surface lately...and what has it produced?
A few people who aren't really lurkers after all? Most have at least a few posts in the past.
Spence said it best....this is a HOME SHOP MACHINISTS board.
Those who don't like it are probably welcome to go over to the PM board and duke it out with all the experts over there.
Russ (and yes...I buggered a part tonight...forgot to ask an expert) :D

kap pullen
05-16-2006, 02:12 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what millman wants to know.

He's trying to figure if you know what you're talking about!

Joke Ha Ha!

That's obvious!

Kap

Scishopguy
05-16-2006, 03:01 PM
Some people like to argue and get enjoyment out of defeating others (none that I have seen on this board, however) and driving off anyone with a differing opinion. I, for one, do not. I enjoy the ideas and sometimes off beat solutions offered here. One thing I have learned over the years is that anybody can have a moment of brilliance. Sometimes "newbies" see a problem more clearly than those of us who have been thinking of things in the same old rut.

Just because someone tells you how to do something it does not mean that you have to follow their advice. Sift through the tailings and extract the jewels! There have been many jewels to be found here. If you want to get argumentative and all hostile, go waste someone elses time...please.

Soap box mode off, Flame suit on,

Jim (KB4IVH)

mklotz
05-16-2006, 03:32 PM
Some people like to argue and get enjoyment out of defeating others ... Sometimes "newbies" see a problem more clearly than those of us who have been thinking of things in the same old rut.

If you want to get argumentative and all hostile, go waste someone elses time...please.

Jim (KB4IVH)


Well said, Jim.

Mcgyver
05-16-2006, 03:33 PM
to me the difference is are you here to learn and contribute, or are you here to feed an ego and always be right. I see the former here and even the most experienced are prepared to admit they were wrong or learn from someone else; that makes it a good board. that plus the collective knowledge here would quickly smoke out someone with a bull**** baffles brains type approach. I've been on boards frequented by internet ego junkies (not one of the metal ones, no pot shots from me, I'm thinking an electronics one), not much fun cuz all you're really doing is hanging out with a bunch of losers.

Leigh
05-16-2006, 07:04 PM
The problem with advice, from whatever source, is that some people accept it as gospel. They check their brains at the door and follow the leader like dumb cows.

Any information you receive has to be evaluated according to your own experience and education. Will a particular technique or method work for you? Nobody can answer that, except you. Does the answer make sense? If not, inquire. Ask questions. If you don't believe a statement is correct, challenge the originator to support his statement. Ask for background and reference material.

Unfortunately the internet has proven to be a boon for lazy people. Folks who lack the motivation to research subjects on their own come here seeking simple solutions and quick answers. Then they blame the poster if the answer doesn't exactly address their requirements.

It makes me wonder why we post answers at all :(

Backyard
05-16-2006, 07:15 PM
I went in the US Air Force in 1970, went to Machinist school and spent 4 years in the service, we had no DRO or CNC on our machines. Now i would like to get back in to it, i have a 9x42 Bridgeport Mill and a 13x32 Clausing Lathe, Drill, Craftman 6x12 Lathe and other things. If i ask a Question, i am asking all of the Members that Question, and i will take all the info. and use it.

John Stevenson
05-16-2006, 07:26 PM
What works for one doesn't always work for others due to skill or equipment differences.
10 people can answer a question, in most cases 7 or 8 of these people are right but arrive at the result in a different way.
2 or 3 post a load of rubbish as they either haven't read the question correctly or aren't answering what they have been asked.

The skill here is to sift thru the answers to arrive at the right answer that suits the question.

There is never a black and white, right and wrong way but may different ways. Even two people with similar skills and experience will attack a problem differently but neither is wrong. What you have to do is look at each solution and say "can I do that with what I have and will I be comfortable doing it ?"
When you can say yes you have the answer.

.

Wayne02
05-16-2006, 08:40 PM
Hmm, who knew an internet discussion forum could be so complex? Do we all need some doctor Phil intervention... ?;) Or maybe Jerry Springer intervention. HA!

Leigh
05-16-2006, 09:12 PM
...There is never a black and white, right and wrong way but may different ways. Even two people with similar skills and experience will attack a problem differently but neither is wrong. What you have to do is look at each solution and say "can I do that with what I have and will I be comfortable doing it ?"
Absolutely true.

metal mite
05-17-2006, 01:10 AM
How to be a machinist?
It takes 8000 hours of hard work; hundreds of hours of class room theory.

Day shift, evening shift, and graveyard.

Assembly work
Drill press work
Small lathe work
Small mill work
Cnc Mill work
Cnc Lathe work
Part Processing and Cnc Programming
Surface Grinding, and Cylindrical Grinding
Tool Room Machining
Production Machining and Prototyping

Edm work, wire and ram?
Layout of Castings?
Jig Mill, Jig Bore work?
Various large machine work?
HBM's, VBM's, Planer Mills, Large Lathes?

Variois other specilties of the company involved.

When you are done with that, you may be a bottom grade Machinist!

Companies used to pick the brightest applicants because most machinists ended up in management.

These days the college grad gets those slots.

These days, learn Mastercam or similar, set up a vmc, cnc lathe, and bridgeport, and call yourself a Machinist.

Who can figure? Everyone's a Machinist!

Mite

Scishopguy
05-17-2006, 03:48 PM
Machine work is a topic as large as ham radio. There are so many types of operations one can come up against that I am sure nobody can claim to be an expert at all of them. That is what keeps us at least a little humble. I, for one, have never had any experience running CNC equipment. I do understand how it works, what you can do with CNC machining centers, and what kind of screwups you can make with them. Most production work is done in CNC shops now so nowdays most "Machinists" probably need to know how to set them up and what the G codes mean. When I was learning, most of the production work was done on manual machines like the old Warner Swasey #4. I don't think being a machinist is as cut and dried as what type of machinery you have run. The machinists that I admire most are the guys who show imagination and ingenuity at solving the problems they confront. This all has to be tempered with that good old comodity, common sense. That also means paying attention to basic engineering principles and good safe operation.

Jim (KB4IVH)