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View Full Version : Frozen knee...need help!!!



torker
05-17-2006, 08:17 PM
I need to ask you guys a couple questions before I go any further.
The knee is rusted solid...I think.
I've been carefully jacking on it enough to put a little pressure on it then release it then jack it up again etc. Sort of trying to rock it loose. Done this about 100 times or so.
Now I'm not sure. It could be that the jackscrew is siezed...I don't know.
Here,s a pic of it....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/torker/ab29aaff.jpg
I have both setscrews out of it and the 1/2" bolt is only in by a thread.
This thing was outside for a couple years.
If the knee wasn't rusted...would the jackscrew just pull out if the top collar was loose and had the setscrews out of it?
If not...do you think the bottom of the screw could be siezed in some sort of collar that is part of the base?
I've never worked on a knee before and have no idea what is under the base.
I just want to rule out the screw.
I turned the handwheel back and forth from underneath. It moves, the bevel gear moves back and forth a bit but the screw doesn't seem to want to move.
Possibly or more likely it;s because of the frozen knee but I'm not sure.
Thanks!
Russ

HTRN
05-17-2006, 08:20 PM
Have you tried applying Kroil to break the rust bond?


HTRN

torker
05-17-2006, 08:26 PM
Yes! I've been pumping it in all afternoon. Was hoping the rocking motion would speed it up.
Russ

HTRN
05-17-2006, 08:30 PM
You gotta give it time to work - try letting it sit overnight. If that doesn't work, mebbe some light heat will break the bond. You might even wanna try giving it a couple good hard wacks on the side with soft faced hammer, just to upset the bond.


HTRN

torker
05-17-2006, 08:35 PM
Hehehehe...I know...I'm being impatient.
I figured it'd be a huge job to get this going but I've got so much done today I'm getting anxious. I just need to see if a few more things work before I decide to tear it down.
If there is something major hooped on it it'll have to wait. Still hoping for the best.

wierdscience
05-17-2006, 09:43 PM
Russ,I am assuming you released the knee lock right? If you did,you may have to loosen off the gibs on the dovetails to get it moving.

So far as what's in the knee,the bevel gear usually sits on the top of the elevation screw keyed to it of course,above that is a ball or roller thrust bearing and a stub end on the shaft that slips into a bore in the knee casting,the whole mess depends on gravity to hold it down so jacking on the table shouldn't hurt so long as you don't use all of that 20 ton jack:D

J Tiers
05-17-2006, 11:04 PM
Speaking of gibs, if you want to pull teh knee, have you removed or at least loosened the gib? With the gib holding it closely, not only would it be locked if there is any rust in there, but you might score the ways getting it off of there if you CAN move it.

And then, you don't know but that it is cracked and digging in somewhere...... :eek:

torker
05-18-2006, 12:16 AM
Darin, the only lock for the knee that I can see is a 1/2" setscrew with a folding kinda handle on it. I took it right out and soaked the hole with Kroil.
Both of you...What was I thinking? I never even thought of loosening the gib.
There seems to only be one lock screw at the bottom of the gib. The screw faces up. Must have to release that I guess.
Never made any headway the whole night but that's ok...I never broke anything either.
Sat there for hours lifting and lowering the knee....a whole .001.
I put a DI on the column and indicated off the swivel base.
Lift and lower, squirt more Kroil....repeat, repeat, repeat.
I did get the jack screw loose though. Once the Kroil soaked in I spun the collar right out. So it isn't the jack screw for sure.
Tomorrow I'm going to remove the gib...put a little preasure on the knee and run an air chisel with a pad on it up and down the dovetails.
Russ

x39
05-18-2006, 06:44 AM
I can recall a couple of instances where I have seen the knee of a Bridgeport siezed on the column. In those cases, it seemed the gib had somehow managed to wedge the whole works tight. Needless to say, the gib had to be loosened to facilitate movement of the knee, and that had to be done by actually driving the gib loose with a hammer and drift.

John Stevenson
05-18-2006, 06:59 AM
I

I just want to rule out the screw.
I turned the handwheel back and forth from underneath. It moves, the bevel gear moves back and forth a bit but the screw doesn't seem to want to move.
Possibly or more likely it;s because of the frozen knee but I'm not sure.
Thanks!
Russ
Ok lets look at this logically one step at a time.
The hand wheel moves as does the bevel gear but the screw doesn't.
So why not? Two reasons, one is it's rusted into the nut and secondly it's rusted at the top bearing housing.
Forget the knee for now because if the knee is / was rusted firm you would still have movement in this screw, no screw is that backlash free.

Getting to the top bearing isn't easy as it's inside the knee but you have to strip this to clean it anyway.

Personally I'd start by removing the bed. Free off the gib strip, remove the end brackets holding the screw and unwind the screw from the nut and the table will be able to be lifted off by two people.

Then do the same for the cross axis or Y axis and get this clear.

At this stage you should now be able to look down into the knee and see the bevels.

The bevels are usually held on by taper pins to act as shear pins. Look carefully when trying the handle to see if there is any movement at the top, if you can see the bevel move but not the shaft then the top bearing is siezed.
If they move together then the problem is the nut.

Address this problem first and forget the actual knee at this point, work logically.

.

torker
05-18-2006, 08:02 AM
x39, Thanks, that is todays project. Have to figure out how they have the gib anchored.
John, Thanks also!
I took the table off before I brought this home (ouch...by myself....table is very heavy)
I found last night that the screw was indeed rusted into the nut at the bottom. I've got that freed up now.
Now it's getting the knee loose.
I am no longer in a hurry....this'll take awhile.
Russ

x39
05-18-2006, 08:42 AM
if the knee is / was rusted firm you would still have movement in this screw, no screw is that backlash free..
Not to put too fine a point on things, but theoretically and for the sake of interesting discussion, if the last person to move the knee cranked it down, any backlash would already be taken up. This is because when cranking the knee down, the weight of the knee actually "rides" the screw downward. Should the knee sieze under this condition, it would be very difficult indeed to get any movement out of the screw.

pcarpenter
05-18-2006, 11:09 AM
Russ-- you want to not only remove the "lock screw" you referred to for the gib, but there should be an adjusting screw. Often these would be accessible from the top of the knee which may be a negative in your case as it could easily be rusted and you have to be able to back it out to back the gib out. In short, you should be able to *remove* the gib. Be careful as the knee could tip at that point. Once there is no gib, nothing short of a weld would keep the knee from being popped loose....except the screw. By getting to this point, you can alleviate the question of whether it is column to knee way corrosion or problems with the screw itself.

Kroil is the oil that creeps....but you have to let it creep and creeping through iron oxide can take a while. I would think in terms of days or a week and not hours. Patience may save you broken parts which may not be available for that mill.

Still, it would pay to get the gib out of the way, because for all you know, it could have been bound up independent of any oxidation on the way surfaces because as John pointed out, you need to isolate where things are binding. If you can get everything that constrains the gib (locks, adjustments etc) out of the way, I would then consider using a drift (gently) on the end of the gib to pop it loose. Be sure you are going the right direction with it. All that assumes that you can see both ends of the gib and that is it a standard tapered gib.

Alistair Hosie
05-18-2006, 01:20 PM
Johns advice is superior to anything I can offer but if you decide to apply heat try a hot air gun {paint stripper type) as you dont want naked flame heat like a blowtorch as it will do more harm than good good luck take your time dont force anything too hard you don't want to break anything irreplacable regards and good luck Alistair ps this is exciting:D

torker
05-18-2006, 01:23 PM
I played with the gib a bit before work this morning.
The lock screw is out.
There is a 12 point bolt in the bottom. It loosened easily but only backed out a couple of turns and is solid. I'm guessing there is a pocket in the gib or something that captivates it.
The gib is also rusted so it won't move either.
I'm going to make a punch to fit it and tap it a bit to see if it'll loosen.
I agree, the gib is the key to this. If I can budge it the knee would almost fall off...lol!
Russ(covered in Kroil)

pcarpenter
05-18-2006, 01:38 PM
Russ-- that is useful info. That smell of Kroil will eventually be the smell of success :-)

I don't know for sure what you have, but the tapered gibs on my Bridgeport mill have a pocket maybe 3/16" wide milled into the edge. In that rides the wide head of the gib adjustment screw. It is a close fit such that the screw cannot move much either direction without moving the gib with it. Since you cannot turn much before it hangs up, it is likely that this is what you are dealing with. If you turn it until it just stops in the "backing out direction, then you may have a thousandth or two (or maybe more) of slack that you could take out when tapping the gib until it hits the screw head again.

When it does decide to move, the process will be something like tap just a bit, turn the screw just a bit, tap just a bit more etc. This will only go on for a short while until the tapered gib has moved enough that it is physically loose in two dimensions and then you should be able to back the gib out the rest of the way using the adjustment screw. Just have hold of the knee with a hoist of some sort, because you do not want it supported by the jack screw alone as it could tip and bend or damage the screw and nut. I think you already said you had the jack screw nut loose from its bore so that it can just pull out once the knee moves upward.

So, for now, you have one thing out of the way...that adjusting screw *can* turn up until it is stopped by the gib...which could have been a big obstacle on something that sat out in the weather.

good luck
Paul

x39
05-18-2006, 01:43 PM
Not to put too fine a point on things, but theoretically.....
I guess I should have made sure my brain was loaded before shooting my mouth off on this last little pearl of wisdom. I went up to my shop and after some experimentation disproved my own theory. Nevermind.

torker
05-18-2006, 01:45 PM
Thanks Paul. I've resigned myself to the fact that this is just plain going to take time now...for the Kroil to work.
I sure don't want to break anything on this ol' girl...I'm told that Walmart no longer handles parts for Oesterlein milling machines :D
Russ

pcarpenter
05-18-2006, 01:49 PM
One other thing I forgot to add was that you may benefit from using a hoist to just take the load off the knee. You need something like this to stabilize it as you try to remove the gib anyway. It will also help by removing to some degree, the normal wedging forces against the gib due to the weight of the knee wanting to pivot out from the column. Before attempting to tap the gib out, removing all other resistance (other than rust) should only help matters. Do not pull up too hard, however or you will be wedging the tapered gib "socket" in the knee into the gib and the dovetail way which may currently be fixed in place by rust. You just want to take the tension off. I had to do this in removing my bridgeport knee from the column and I was not fighting any rust ;)

paul

aboard_epsilon
05-18-2006, 02:42 PM
I would not try and move it at all.
take the whole thing off
undo the Gib's and pull it off
as there will be rust on the ways underneath ........
this way.....you get to inspect them and clean them

do the same for the rest of the machine

do not try to unstick anything
dismantling and cleaning is the answer ..

you are taking short cuts by trying to get things moving

you are in too much of a hurry

the machine will need to be stripped any-hows

please take my advice

all the best...mark

pcarpenter
05-18-2006, 03:14 PM
Mark-- I think what he is telling us is that he cannot "undo the gibs"

In order to remove the gib that holds the knee to the column, he has to be able to slide that gib by backing out the adjustment screw and removing it. The gib won't slide yet (even to remove it) and that is what he has to accomplish first.

You are sure right though that sliding the knee on the ways after getting the knee loose (before removing the rust) would be a bad move.
Paul

aboard_epsilon
05-18-2006, 04:50 PM
OK then

Withdraw the knee raising shaft the shaft that the handle goes onto.........there will be probably a set screw in the side that holds it in .
Take off the table and then the swivelling bit.

Attach chain blocks to the knee, and take the weight .

knee raising screw should then screw down.

Screw it down all the way .....then take off the screw plus its support.

You are then left with the knee only on the machine.......after pulling gib strip out, the knee should then swing loose....if it don't ...attempt to unbind it by pulling on the chain blocks.

This is how my similar fritz werner is held together.......yours looks very like it, in construction .

Hope this helps.

all the best....mark

torker
05-18-2006, 06:16 PM
Mark..Paul is correct. The gib absolutely will not move. And with rusted parts...you HAVE to move something eventually. I'm not being in a hurry(now). The only things I'm moving are the things I can clean, derust and oil beforehand.
I don't want to pound on the gib anymore than I have as I fear it wil start peening over.
The hydraulic jack I have under the knee puts a whale of a lot more pressure on the knee than a chain hoist would and it won't budge.
The DI I have mounted gives me some kind of idea how far I'm going with the jacking.
I've probabaly "rocked" the knee a thousand times or more by now and it's still solid.
I could get a bigger jack....break some stuff and free it up but I choose not to. This thing is in such good shape...I can be patient. This old iron will fling chips again I promise you that...it just may take awhile.
I've owned and built a lot of cool machins over the years but this thing is the neatest machine I've ever had. I'm in love....rust and all
Russ

Peter N
05-18-2006, 06:28 PM
Russ, have you tried using Coca-Cola to eat the rust away? Sounds crazy I know but Coke will do this, and as you're going to take it all apart to rebuild anyway the sticky residue won't be a problem.
Regards

Peter

torker
05-18-2006, 06:55 PM
Peter...Thanks! Never thought of Coke. I do know it works..I've used it on chrome bumpers. May try it if the Kroil doesn't work.
Russ

aboard_epsilon
05-18-2006, 07:13 PM
hydrochloric acid (masonry cleaner its usually about 15 percent acid)

that usually dissolves all the rust away and leaves sound metal intact
may be enough to break it free.

all the best..mark

aboard_epsilon
05-18-2006, 07:21 PM
Here's an old trailor auto brake that I saved a few years ago

This is it before


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/hitchrust.jpg


And this is it after dabbing it with a paint brush and masonary cleaner for about 2 hours...must be degeased first or the acid won't work
must be neutalised with bicarbonate of soda strait after you've finshed ..or will rust overnight ..and keep on rusting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/hitchclean.jpg


all the best.mark

PS ...sorry to hear about your friend Russ

A.K. Boomer
05-19-2006, 10:08 AM
Stop and analize your gib!!!!, depending on design you could be wedging it into the dovetails more by using a jack and trying to lift your knee, Take off both gib screw adjusters and look at the top of the gib and the bottom, if your mill is like mine the top will be thicker --- Using a Jack will do nothing but self wedge the gib even more to the point of breaking your dovetails or distorting your base or knee!!! If anything you need to put more weight on the table, but first, If this is your design GET RID OF THE JACK!!! then build a drive punch that is wide and flat and has enough surface area to cover the wide flat gib end (the thinner gib end which should be at the bottom of your knee),,, and if this thinner gib end is at the bottom of the knee then pound directly up and as you stated before do not peen the gib end over, if this doesnt work put more weight on the table and try it while slightly loading the knee handle in the lowering position (might take two people), I might try an air hammer with a modified bit and put it on a mild setting --- many frequent smaller hits are better than big blows for breaking rusted parts loose, If your gibs are of oposite design than i would indeed use a jack on the knee exceeding all the knee and table weight by a maximum of double, and id try air hammering from the top gib end down but only if its the thinner edge, all gibs are self wedging --- thats why both adjusting screws are so important, one takes up the slack and one keeps the gib from going to far, The latter is actually the most important, if a CNC machine loses the limiter adjuster the table will self jam to the point of destruction of drive components and or dovetails (if equiped without shear pins), good luck, let us know what kind of design you have...

billr
05-19-2006, 10:26 AM
good morning.

just thinking about the post directly above, it seems like it would be really hard to adjust a gib from the bottom of a knee. i would be surprised [well, maybe not] if the wide end of the gib was at the bottom.

my dad used to use brake fluid at a penetrant. it is pretty hard on the paint, but according to him it worked.

personally, i would keep soaking it with kroil and tapping here and there. i have found that it is always better to start with the least invasive plan and then move on to other stuff if that doesn't work.

remember that this is a machine tool that you are working on and as such, it should have pretty close tolerances. it doesn't take much rust to lock it up pretty tight.

i think i might want to have some lifting type tension on the table and bed. like an engine hoist if it is strong enough. it could get pretty exciting to knock the gib out depending on what is loose from where.

good luck.

peace.
billr

John Stevenson
05-19-2006, 10:34 AM
Bill read the post again.
He's saying the wide part MAY be to the top and so jacking the knee up will wedge it harder.

.

pcarpenter
05-19-2006, 10:48 AM
I guess the reason that I was suggesting the crane from above is that you could *just*take the tension off. You really don't want to add any tension to the works, just take the weight off the gib so that you can make it move.


I do agree, be patient. I would keep wetting it with Kroil. The rust will keep soaking it up and you want it to eventually make it down the full length of both sides of the gib so it can come loose. I would use a brass hammer and rap on the side of the knee (gently) all around the area that captures the gib to set up some vibration.

I wouldn't hesitate to tap on the end of the gib....something will have to loosen it and jacking on the knee will only try to pop one side loose-- the side against the column. Moving the gib will eventually allow you to remove the gib which you are going to have to do. If you find you are peening the gib (no need to hit it that hard really), use a brass drift. In short, both sides of that gib are likely rusted in place and *both sides have to be loosened.

I am glad to see your committed sense of patience, however. That is a neat toy and there is no sense wrecking something.

good luck
Paul

aboard_epsilon
05-19-2006, 11:33 AM
If its anything like my fritz ..there is no tapered gib.

One side of the knee just hooks over the dovetails on the column.
the other side ...well its identical to the other .but hook part (gib if you like) this part bolts on and is slightly larger.

undoing these bolts ..(if its like my machine ,that is ) would allow the whole knee to swing loose.

In your case allow the whole knee to be prised loose.

all the best.....mark

billr
05-19-2006, 11:56 AM
Bill read the post again.
He's saying the wide part MAY be to the top and so jacking the knee up will wedge it harder.

.

hello John. how is the weather in 'merry olde'?

am i missing something here? the point i was attempting to make is that i think it would be strange for the wide part of it to be at the bottom. if i failed to make that clear, well, i guess that's why i am not married. apparently i do not communicate well sometimes.

i was not suggesting that he attempt to 'jack' it but rather to have some means of holding the table, etc. when he does get the gib out, whichever way it might be. what i meant by 'lifting type tension' was a means to hold all of that up once he does get the gib out, and not to be actively pulling up on it. now that i look at it, i can see how someone might be confused by what i wrote.

you are better at explaining this stuff than i am. [i guess that ain't much of a compliment considering my feeble abilities.]

you gotta do what i mean and not what i say.

please forgive me if i did not communicate that well.

peace.
billr

torker
05-19-2006, 08:11 PM
Guy! Thanks for taking so much time on this subject.
I appreciate it!
Not much progress today. Just letting the oil work mainly.
The Kroil is really starting to "kreep".
The dovetail/rusted area is 9" wide and 18" deep. A lot of rust.
The dovetail on the knee is all one piece. I only wish it was a bolt on deal....that would have been easier.
There is only one adjusting bolt for the gib. It is at the bottom facing up.
I'm still just jacking it up a bit and releasing it. Basically rocking the knee a bit trying to help the oil run down.
To remove this knee you have to lift it right up off the top of the dovetail.
Russ

aboard_epsilon
05-19-2006, 08:20 PM
To remove this knee you have to lift it right up off the top of the dovetail.
Russ

wow so you have to have another 6 foot above the machine clearance to even lift it off ..thats thoughtful of the makers.
do the dovetails go all the way up to the top where the ram is .....means also you would have to remove the spindle .

all the best....mark

torker
05-19-2006, 09:46 PM
.....means also you would have to remove the spindle .

all the best....mark
Yes...nice huh?
I'm still scratching my head trying to figure how to get the spindle out of it also.

A.K. Boomer
05-20-2006, 12:53 AM
"There is only one adjusting bolt for the gib. It is at the bottom facing up."

Torker, this is very strange, i dont understand the mechanism, if its a wedge type gib adjuster there should be both a slack adjuster and a limit, and you jam the slack into the limit to lock the gib and keep it exactly were you want it, the only way i know of just getting by with one is if the gib wedge has a machined slot on the side for a single adjuster head to fit into, now you have a limit and a slack in the same adjuster however this is archaic in comparison to the other method because you always have to have a little free play just to be able to rotate the adjuster head in its cut out slot, this amounts to the gib losing tolerance in one direction and tightening in the other (like when table is raised or lowered) If its something other that what i discribed please let us know although you may not know till you get it apart! (could be a spring loaded gib i suppose? but that would be risky imho...) Just thinkin out loud, take some pics if you want as it seems theres plenty of interest in your machine! good luck and keep it soaking

torker
05-20-2006, 01:22 AM
AK, I believe you are correct. The rest of the gibs on this machine are the same...one adjuster on the fat end of the gib.
There are some kind of setscrews(2) or something in behind the dovetail also.
The knee must be raised to get at them as far as I can see.
The gib has a shallow 1/2" wide slot milled into it on the side opposite to the dovetail way. The oil is flowing freely throughout the slot now. It's the other side, the one that is rusted to the dovetail side that is the worse to get at.
I'm almost convinced that the dovetail side is starting to free up. I now have .001 movement right at the dovetail with moderate pressure from the jack. Before I had none.
There is absolutely no movement on the opposite side with no gib.
It'll come...it's just being a little cranky.
Good news...I found some sliding plates under the X table that cover up the top bearing for the jack screw. Everything is in like new condition.
This thing has lots of cool features.
There are slotted head screws EVERYWHERE. They are all oiling holes! There isn't one of the screws that is buggered. They all loosen off easily and all where well oiled. Someone took good care of this machine at one time.
I'm fearing the worse for the spindle now.
The little reservoir at the top doesn't have a sealed lid.
There are oil lines running to all the bearings from the reservoir.
Being outside let water into the reservoir. You don't need a lot of imagination to guess what happened.
One of the feed tubes was lower than the rest.
The one for the rear spindle bearing(bushing?). Looks like any water went in this one.
I've been pouring Kroil into this tube. Rusted crap is just pouring out of the back of the bearing now. I have to free this up before I can get the spindle out...I think????
Russ

John Stevenson
05-20-2006, 08:18 AM
Sometimes on mill knees if the gib is wide enough the knee is free to clear the dovetails once the gib is removed.
Same for the other slides, some do, some don't.

My Victoria will clear and just lift off after twisting but a Bridgy won't.

What I'm saying is you may not have to remove the spindle first.

A.K. Boomer
05-20-2006, 08:48 AM
Damn that really chaps my hide when people leave good machinery out in the elements, not even a tarp,,,,, I want to get a bumper sticker that says "never --- ever --- ever --- hurt a machine..."
If the thick end of your gib wedge is indeed at the bottom than the jack is the way to go, sorry bout freeking out but my machine is of very popular design and the exact oposite so if the gib was frozen to the base but free in the knee it would just self tighten with a jack, does your spindle even rotate? what kind of machine is this? you can always stone in the knee portion once disasembled but the base where the knee got "parked" is whats critical, hopefully not to much deviation there and maybe not a very popular working position although in your pic the knee screw looks about half way out,,, Soak the hell out of it, put your best speakers next to it and find a loud rock station, crank up the tunes and then go on a weeks vacation, if that dont work at least you had fun trying:p

torker
05-20-2006, 10:28 AM
John, I was hoping for that solution also but it isn't going to happen.
The gib and dovetail are 1 1/2" wide (or so).
The gib is 3/8" thick at the bottom and 3/16" thick at the top.
I still can't figure what the screws (or whatever they are) that are around back of the dovetail are for. I can't see them well enough in the current position of the knee.
There is also a funny hole drilled right beside the gib at the top. I've cleaned it out and it almost looks like someone was trying to shift some metal over against the gib with a round nose punch, similar to what we do with bearing caps on auto engines.
AK..This is an OHIO #2 Universal, made by the Oesterlein Machine Company.
Long since defunct.
The front part of the spindle (the nose) spins nicely now. Was a bit dry but is lubed up and should be ok.
It is a back geared machine so the main spindle is a two piece deal.
The rear part of the spindle turns independant of the front unless the front cog is engaged.
I'm having a devil of a time trying to fugure how it works because I can't turn the back part. Won't be able to take it apart until the rear spindle is freed either.
There are some bolts holding some gears on that have to come out.
Can't get at the back ones til it turns.
BTW...I fibbed about the other gibs having only one screw...I didn't look properly until this morning. There is a screw at each end just like on my 14X40 lathe.
That's why this gib for the knee is baffling. As was mentioned...you'd think it would be loose going one way and tight the other. The adjusting screw seems pretty sloppy now that it's been soaked with oil.
Baby steps, baby steps....(reminding myself NOT to get the Tiger torch out and a BFH)
Russ

torker
05-20-2006, 10:55 AM
AK..also, I can't for the life of me figure why this machine was left outside either.
There is nothing broken on it but one chip out of a bevel gear tooth for the X powerfeed. The X table is smooth as silk...has a bit of backlash but no worse than my new mill/drill. The ram is so smooth it almost fell out when I was moving the machine across the floor on rollers.
The ways etc that I can see are in pretty darn good shape.
I'm still waiting to find what is wrong...there must be something bad.
Or maybe the rusted knee has always been the problem...who knows.
The old machinist who had this before I did was crippled and was pretty much screwed in the head after the car accident and stroke he suffered.
As far as I can tell he never did have this running.
I think family and friends got this old piece of "junk" for him to play with and keep him amused. He wasn't capable of much for the last 15 years. He only had this for the past two years.
It really is a shame.
In its day this was probably a top of the line machine. It's very well thought out and heavy duty. I'd have loved to run it when it was still in good shape.
I've owned or built a lot of pretty cool machines over the years but this one is the neatest one I've ever owned....too bad it don't worky!
I'm thinking I'll probably spend some coin to get it fixed up right.
To buy a new machine like this would be pretty pricey, even a decent used universal up here is pretty spendy.
Course I have to really check it out first...it may have issues too serious to bother with but I don't think so.
Russ

Peter N
05-20-2006, 10:56 AM
The gib and dovetail are 1 1/2" wide (or so).
The gib is 3/8" thick at the bottom and 3/16" thick at the top.
I still can't figure what the screws (or whatever they are) that are around back of the dovetail are for.....

Hmm. I just had a thought that may be a complete shot in the dark,and could of course be completely wrong, but maybe the gib strip is held semi-captive by the screws? With the thick end of the gib at the bottom what's to stop it falling out under gravity as it wears or the knee moves?
Or another thought is that maybe the whole dovetail is the adjustable gib with a wear strip attached to it? The knee on my surface grinder is like this, it doesnt have a wear strip, but you undo 3 bolts and the dovetailed gib block comes away and then the knee will swing off the dovetail on the other side.

Peter

torker
05-20-2006, 11:01 AM
Peter, Sir John already mentioned the removable part of the dovetail...no good here. It's all one casting that slides right up out the top(after you remove the spindle...grrr)
The screw that holds the gib in has a shoulder that rides in a slot in the gib. This is how it pushes the gib up and down....as far as I can tell anyway.
Russ

torker
05-20-2006, 03:38 PM
HEHEHEHEHE!!!!!
Score...
Kroil and hillbilly 1....siezed spindle 0
Kroil and hillbilly 1...siezed knee 0
9:57 Mountain Time...after ten thousand (or so) times, rocking the big bull gear back and forth with a piece of oak...spindle breaks free!
11:02 Mountain Time....after 10 million times...rocking the knee back and forth and side to side..Kroil starts squirting up. Modified chizel on air hammer knocks out gib like nothing. Unbelievable...knee is still frozen on the other side. One more shot with the jack and "BANG"...knee lets loose!
Yipeeee!....Ooops...unknown to me...the slip joint in the driveshaft is frozen also. When knee releases it snaps the ears off the driveshaft yoke. No big deal...common type of U-joint.
One more thing is still frozen.
There is a bevel gear in behind the bevel gear for the jackscrew. Very hard to get at. The knee jackscrew was frozen after all. It moves enough that I though it was just because the knee was froze. Couldn't see the little bevel gear.
There may be hope after all! The spindle spins nicely but I still want to take it all apart.
I still have to lift the knee off as well but have to remove the spindle once I learn how.
There you go guys...find rusted junk...fix it!
Russ

aboard_epsilon
05-20-2006, 03:53 PM
THATS GOOD I'M GLAD FOR YOU


Well done

just make sure all the clobber on top of the knee is removed before you go any further

the table ..the swivel gubbins etc



all the best.mark

jimmstruk
05-20-2006, 03:54 PM
Congratulations!! Sounds like you are on the way to success!! JIM

John Stevenson
05-20-2006, 04:55 PM
Where's the damn pictures ?????????????

torker
05-20-2006, 05:26 PM
Where's the damn pictures ?????????????
John, it wouldn't be worth taking pics yet.
There's still too much light reflection from the big grin on my face!
Actually I now have the little bevel gear freed up but the jackscrew will still only turn a little better than half a turn.
There is something metalic stopping it.
Finally figured out what the extra bevel gears are for.
Ha..the knee is powered as well.
There's three little gears way up under the knee right behind the bevel drive gear for the knee.
Very hard to see up in there.
It almost seems like a pin or bolt has backed out and is catching on something.
All the gears are held on with 1/8" or 3/16" drift pins...one may have worked loose.
Have to get up in there and clean some black goo out to see it better.
Mark..thanks for your help!
Russ

IOWOLF
05-20-2006, 08:03 PM
I guess a WELL DONE is in order,Congrats. :)

WJHartson
05-20-2006, 08:45 PM
Russ, your new motto should be "If I can't fix it - it ain't broke". Congrats on your accomplishments so far. Keep smiling.

Joe

A.K. Boomer
05-20-2006, 10:53 PM
Good deal bro, now yu'll be able to see what you got, nice work.

torker
05-21-2006, 12:20 AM
Thanks guys!
I have to be honest...this morning, after hours of jacking that stupid knee back and forth, fore and aft...I was starting to wonder if this thing would ever come loose.
When the spindle cracked it gave me a lot more git-up and go.
Tomorrow I'm going to polish up one of the arbors and put a DI on it.
I'm still weary. Was told by two people that it needed an arbor. Neither know anything about machines so I'm at a loss what it really needs.
Honestly, this thing is in very good shape despite the rust.
Once the jackscrew problem is solved I'm thinking this will be a serviceable mill.
Just think...it was almost hauled out for scrap.
Now we have hours of cleaning and bolt busting...lol!
Russ