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torker
06-02-2006, 08:36 AM
Thanks for bumping some of the lost posts!
I've been working some pretty long hours welding for two companies the past week so haven't had much time for anything else.
I had a couple more posted that I'd like to see.
Maybe on the weekend I can find them.
BTW...is there a page where the lost ones went or are they kinda scattered around?
Thanks!
Russ

Evan
06-02-2006, 10:40 AM
They are scattered around. You will need to search for them. I actually didn't bump up any posts (except mine), I bumped down all the ones with wrong advanced dates by posting to them. That made it possible for new posts to rise to the top.

[edit]

If I had admin access to this board I could have cleaned it up a lot better. I'm not volunteering and have no wish to moderate though.

lynnl
06-02-2006, 01:05 PM
It seemed to me that most of them were on pages 4 & 5 yesterday. ('course that depends on what you have set in your profile for "display #posts pre page")

A few days ago I kinda found the (approx) time window when it all went to pot on the date stamp. I think I was looking at a post about "cleaning up threads...."

Yeah, it was this one: http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=19382
It has now been changed, but when I saw it then, following JRouche's 26/0455AM post, that next on by Thistle was shown with a June 26 date/time

Evan
06-02-2006, 01:21 PM
The problem is a combination of poor programming on the part of vBulletin and probably an inadvertant mistake at VP by the IT staff. That mistake however should not have been allowed to happen. It is a matter of piss poor error checking on the part of the programmers of the BBS software.

I recently ran into a very similar problem with my own accounting software at my shop. I use an old version of Simply Accounting that I have used for about 8 years now. One day recently when I started the program I must have accidentally clicked the wrong date for the current using date. The program gives you a short list of dates to choose from including today's date as well as the end of fiscal year date right below it. Somehow, perhaps a twitch of the mouse when I clicked, I accidentally selected the end of year instead of the current date.

Now, when I start the program I cannot choose the current date. The program will not, under any circumstances, let me use the current date or undo the mistake. It now defaults to posting everything on Dec 31, 2006. If I try to change the date it tells me that I cannot use a previous date and then tells me to select a date between Dec 31 2006 and Jan 1 2007. Where's my rifle?:mad:

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 01:45 PM
Evan,

Since you have all the answers, why don't you start your own BBS and write your own forum software so the rest of us can see how a real pro does it? With your self proclaimed abilities, it should be a piece of cake!

IOWOLF
06-02-2006, 01:50 PM
Oh yea thats what we need another Site to draw members away from here like "A" hole done.

Your opinion MAY vary!

Evan
06-02-2006, 02:30 PM
I wrote my own BBS software in the early 80's, ran it off my home phone line. There was no public access to the internet so you had to dial direct to get on. One user at a time.

I don't have time for a project like that now or the inclination either. One of the problems is the bandwidth it takes. This BBS has hundreds of people visiting it with sometimes over a hundred or more on at one time. Even though I have the equivalent of two T1 connections at my shop that extra bandwidth demand would compromise the service to my existing customers. I run a number of commercial web sites as well as some free non profit sites from my servers and can't afford to interfere with those, especially the commercial ones.

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 02:36 PM
Aw come on Evan, I'd like to see some of that "flawless" programming!

Evan
06-02-2006, 02:38 PM
Wait 'till I get the Machinist Toolkit done and you can beta test it. I have a severe case of OCD when it comes to error checking in software.

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 02:43 PM
Evan,

No, no, no....I want to see some BBS forum software programming that has some "meat" to it, not a couple of programs that can be done on a hand calculator.

Evan
06-02-2006, 02:56 PM
Well, I suppose I could figure out a way to import the ten thousand lines of assembler code from my CommStar project that I wrote in the 80's. A full featured comm program for the C-64, all in assembler with full peer to peer file transfer back before anybody was doing much of that.

How about my office hockey pool management system, handled all the players in the NHL at the time, over 600 of them and allowed up to 22 teams with managers, a draft and complex dropping rules, a high speed shell sort for the report generator and easy editing.

As I said, I don't have time for that sort of project now.

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 03:04 PM
Evan,

Hmmm....makes me wonder....

decoy91288
06-02-2006, 03:06 PM
Ok -- It the new seemed to work just fine, for a while. But the learning curve has been high. Posts are "lost" creating additional frustration.

I am not going away -- but i sure do miss dealing with a known bbs THAT WAS NOT BROKE.

So again I ask -- why did we fix it??

Evan
06-02-2006, 03:55 PM
Evan,

Hmmm....makes me wonder...

Perhaps you would like to read an article I had published on low level programming in assembler. It's rather long at about 7 pages and pretty detailed complete with programming examples.

Here is a peek at the first page, published in The Transactor, Volume 7, Issue 01, July 1986.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/kw1tn.jpg

You can find the rest of the pages in the online archive here:

http://cbm.csbruce.com/~csbruce/cbm/transactor/v7/i1/

I also have other articles published.

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 04:09 PM
...
I also have other articles published.


Yeah, list those too.

IOWOLF
06-02-2006, 04:19 PM
It is just an observation but Mr. bir**** sounds very familiar,like another troublemaker who left a couple of months ago,after an argument with Evan.

pcarpenter
06-02-2006, 04:32 PM
Mr Bur**** clearly is just not the sharpest stick in the woodpile.

It's a pretty silly argument that unless you can do better you cannot complain. That line of reasoning ceases to hold water for any product that costs money.

I probably cannot perform better brain surgery than a brain surgeon, but if he is incompetent and leaves someone a vegetable, I darned sure can complain about the job he did.

I don't think Evan was suggesting that it be thrown away, but rather that it ought to be fixed, which is a pretty reasonable expectation on a purchased product. Expectations are elevated when money is involved.

Paul....who works in the IT field and does expect good error checking.

Joel
06-02-2006, 04:53 PM
I am looking forward to your Machinists ToolKit software Evan. Marv's stuff is fantastic, but I admit to preferring a nice GUI type interface.

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 05:28 PM
-

Double post

Mike Burdick
06-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Paul,

I did not make the argument that "unless you can do better you cannot complain". If you have been looking at Evan's posts on the BBS problem that are scattered around he gives the clear impression the "he" would never make a programming mistake like that and this problem would never happen to him. To me, he just brags and brags. I would have more respect for him if he indeed did have the answer to the problem and he corresponded with HMS directly and didn't have to post that he did it. But no, he didn't do that. He had to tell everybody how "he" has the answers and how "he" told them.

Evan
06-02-2006, 06:20 PM
I would have more respect for him if he indeed did have the answer to the problem and he corresponded with HMS directly and didn't have to post that he did it.
I do have an answer to the problem, I have posted it in my thread on fixing the BBS. I did correspond with Craig Foster about the problem and did make suggestions. Got any other nits to pick?

Seeing as how I don't have the source code for the BBS software I don't have the ability to correct the errors and omissions in it. I have corresponded with vBulletin technical support about other issues in this software and they have been very uninterested in doing anything about fixing them including one that would allow someone to vandalize the appearance of a topic.

I am not impressed with the software developer. The sort of mistake that precipitated this screwup should have been caught. It is an absolute rookie programming error and should have been caught early in the testing cycle. Having been involved in software testing I know how that works. I'm not being harsh, these sorts of mistakes are inexcusable.

[edit]

You are right, I most certainly wouldn't make that sort of error.

IOWOLF
06-02-2006, 06:46 PM
And besides, Evan just lives here , he does not work here.
What he does IS appreciated.

Thanks again Evan,Seriously.

Craig Foster
06-02-2006, 06:50 PM
Evan has indeed been in contact with me over the last couple of days. I realized there was a problem and passed it on to our systems administrator. When the problem was diagnosed, we asked Adam (Nix0n) to change the dates on the offending posts, which he has done.

Evan emailed me the following morning telling me what the problem was. I told him that we knew, and that we were correcting it. That's when Evan bumped the posts up.

Evan's last post says he doesn't have an answer to the problem. He can't. The issue is with vBulletin, and it is their's to fix. He has, however, given suggestions to us on how we can correct the problem caused by vBulletin's error.

He put a lot of effort into making the board readable. I thank him for his efforts, and may have to send him a bottle of this stuff:

http://www.evanwilliams.com/main.shtml

Everyone have a good weekend

Craig

TECHSHOP
06-03-2006, 01:22 AM
Been away from the computer for about a week, dropped by a few days ago and saw another timewarp was going on. I let these type of things to the experts and my children to figure out. I'm glad that Evan is able to help out, and that Craig Foster of VP is on top of it as much as he is able.

Nothing made by the hand of man is without fault.

SJorgensen
06-03-2006, 03:55 AM
I'm never much impressed by posts that bait and taunt and cast aspersions like Mikes did. It had a "mean" taint from the beginning. So Mike felt that Evan was unfairly pointing out the failings in the programmers product. I didn't feel that way.

Evan, keep on keeping on, and Mike you could be more productive and less critical. If you can't be supportive or informative then maybe you should take it private or somewhere else. I would much rather read the occasional political debate than ever read one member make a personal attack on another. I feel especially strong about this when it comes to Evan. I have learned so much from this amazing man and I hope to continue learning from him. Evan has become one of the greatest resources here, and since Thrud and Foster and Cofer don't post much I wouldn't want to see him slow down. I'm afraid that you Mike can't make up the difference, so ease up and back off. Maybe you should prove yourself before demanding that of others.

IOWOLF
06-03-2006, 06:51 AM
Well Said.

Mike Burdick
06-03-2006, 04:19 PM
I do have an answer to the problem, I have posted it in my thread on fixing the BBS. I did correspond with Craig Foster about the problem and did make suggestions. Got any other nits to pick?

Seeing as how I don't have the source code for the BBS software I don't have the ability to correct the errors and omissions in it. ....



But you do have access to the source code since you are working with with Craig at HMS. The forum code is written in the script language PHP, and the database uses mySQL - all very easy to read and change. All Craig has to do is give you their password to the server site and you can create a working directory on their server, making it very easy to test your changes before actually making it part of the internet. Since you claim to know exactly how to fix the problem, the time required would be very short.

IOWOLF
06-03-2006, 04:23 PM
Yawn!!!!!!!!!

studentjim
06-03-2006, 07:19 PM
Do I detect a little jealousy on the part of Mr. B.?

Mike Burdick
06-03-2006, 07:34 PM
Do I detect a little jealousy on the part of Mr. B.?
Nope...I'll be the first in line to give him the credit if he fixes the problem!

Mcostello
06-03-2006, 10:34 PM
Yea, but if he's blowing smoke it's the kind the rest of us will hardly get to see, let alone try to duplicate. Keep on keeping on Evan, you are appreciated.

Evan
06-04-2006, 12:44 AM
But you do have access to the source code since you are working with with Craig at HMS. The forum code is written in the script language PHP, and the database uses mySQL - all very easy to read and change.

Sigh. I don't have the source code and neither does Craig. vBulletin is written in PHP and then compiled to a binary. All Craig has access to is the same that you or I would have access to if you create a test account at vBulletin and that is the configurable admin functions, not the source code. I can't change the compiled program and neither can Craig or you.

Note: I can hack parts of the program to make certain types of changes even in a compiled binary but that does not include changing entire sections of code.

If you wish to carry on this discussion you will be hearing the sound of one hand clapping, your own.

[edit]

I will also point out that I am not working with Craig. I have been in contact and offered a few suggestions. I also posted a "fix" here on how to automatically synchronize the server clock with NIST. I posted that here because others may also find it useful.

Todd Tolhurst
06-04-2006, 10:56 AM
To the best of my knowledge,vBulletin is distributed in source form, as PHP applications always are. In fact, the vBulletin FAQ,
http://www.vbulletin.com/faqsales.php, says:


Can I get a Trial Version of the software?

Since vBulletin is a "visible source" product, it is not possible for us to offer the full version of the software for evaluation.

Millman
06-04-2006, 11:16 AM
Well, I don't know much about computers and all the jargon{terminology}, so I say you did a good job doing whatever you did to help fix it; well done Evan!

Evan
06-04-2006, 03:07 PM
To the best of my knowledge,vBulletin is distributed in source form, as PHP applications always are. In fact, the vBulletin FAQ,


http://www.vbulletin.com/faqsales.php, says:
Can I get a Trial Version of the software?

Since vBulletin is a "visible source" product, it is not possible for us to offer the full version of the software for evaluation.




Yes, it is "visible source". There is an option to view the source code as part of the package documentation. vBulletin is not open source software and is not licenced under the GNU public licence. The fact that you may view the source does not imply that you are free to alter it or distribute alterations, which you are not. To be able to download the latest version of vBulletin you must supply a customer number, which I do not have. Village Press is not free to provide me with any of the information supplied as part of the vBulletin package.

As for PHP code always being distributed as source, far from it. There are numerous PHP compilers available including Phalanger, Roadsend, PriadoBlender and others. Compiled executables run much faster than interpreted script language and this is important for multi user applications.

Todd Tolhurst
06-04-2006, 04:31 PM
Evan, I have the greatest possible respect for you, but in this case, I am afraid you are mistaken. vBulletin is distributed as source code. I know this beyond any doubt because I have run vBulletin on my servers in the past. It is not an open source product, no, but all customers necessarily receive the PHP source code, which is executed on the server as-is, and is not precompiled using any of the products you mentioned. I have made source modifications to my vBulletin installation.

Anyone with shell access to the homeshopmachinist.net server and appropriate permissions would be able to view and modify the vBulletin source code in any way they see fit.

The following posting on vBulletin's own forum supports this: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=186478&highlight=source+code

Modifying vBulletin is popular enough to support http://www.vbulletin.org, a resource for those wishing to develop and distribute modifications to vBulletin.

Mike Burdick
06-04-2006, 05:33 PM
Oh, I was going to respond to evans latest remarks but Todd answered it very well. Now with a second confirmation that he can view the source code, perhaps he can now proceed with his fix. evan, I'm not trying to harrass you - I just think it's a huge task that you boasted of doing and not easily accomplished. But...we'll see.

SJorgensen
06-04-2006, 11:19 PM
I wouldn't expect Evan to be goaded into fixing any programming that he isn't responsible for.
I develop databases and I create forms and reports for small businesses. To tell you the truth I appreciate it when one of the users of my systems point out an error or a failing. At the outset of software development there is no way that I can foresee all of the interactions and perturbations of a business’s data requirements. I can't know at the outset what field validations will be required on data, nor foresee all the entry errors that users are capable of. I can't foresee all the reports that each Department will need, nor know the best way to display the information that the users will need to see. It is by working with the users and observing them working and analyzing the paper flow that I get my best ideas.

It is through input such as what Evan has pointed out that programmers find and fix bugs. When I hear of problems, I think of solutions. I don’t have time to provide everything, but I do the best I can by priority. The products get better and more customized and more complex over time and user input such as Evan’s has given is what the developer uses in his art. Without it we are stagnated. We get pretty thick skins for criticism. On the other hand, we get plenty of accolades from users for fixing problems and making peoples jobs easier. If I don’t hear the word “Genius” or a phrase like “you’re awesome” several times a day, then I am off my game. This doesn’t mean that I don’t make mistakes, just that I might be forgiven when I do.

I’m very sure that Evan has plenty to do without being pressured to fix someone else’s poor programming.

kap pullen
06-05-2006, 07:29 AM
We have to give Evan credit for helping this site achieve,
and mantain it's top status on the search engines.

Few here have the time to make over 10,000 in just 3 years.
That is 9 plus posts a day.

Evan would be an asset to any site that he contributed to
on that fact alone.

Kap

Evan
06-05-2006, 11:15 AM
Anyone with shell access to the homeshopmachinist.net server and appropriate permissions would be able to view and modify the vBulletin source code in any way they see fit.


Todd,

Under the terms of the vBulletin EULA Village Press is not permitted to grant me shell access without permission from Jelsoft. I would clearly fit the definition of "third party".

Quote from vBulletin EULA




vBulletin ('the Software') is a copyrighted work of authorship and is also protected under applicable database laws. Jelsoft retains ownership of the Software and any copies of it, regardless of the form in which the copies may exist. This licence is not a sale of the original Software or any copies.
...
You undertake to;
ensure that, prior to use of the Software by your employees or agents, all such parties are notified of the terms of this Agreement; and
hold all data (including object and source codes), software listings and all other information relating to the Software confidential and not at any time, during the period of the licence or after its expiry, disclose the same whether directly or indirectly to any third party without Jelsoft's consent. Furthermore, as I stated above, I don't have time or the inclination. I accept your statement that it is still distributed as source code, but as you explained, that doesn't make it "open source". If I were to run it on my servers I would compile it first.

Since vBulletin is a copyright licenced commercial product it is the responsibility of the vendor to maintain the product.

Todd Tolhurst
06-05-2006, 11:25 AM
I completely agree, Evan, that you are in no way responsible to fix vBulletin. I was only responding to the availability-of-source-code question. I'm perfectly capable of making any necessary changes to it as well, but I'm not volunteering for the job either (especially since I've been in that code before... blech).