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View Full Version : wow! i can only dream,,like new hardinge HLV



billyboy
07-14-2006, 06:29 PM
wow look at this machine, lovelly jubly! ebay item number 140007475310

i can only dream!!!! good night!!

bill

wierdscience
07-14-2006, 07:11 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140007475310&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/140007475310_W0QQfromZR40QQfviZ1



Yes Reliable gets a lot of nice stuff. Evil cow worshipping bastards:D

PHiers
07-14-2006, 07:47 PM
Now that is one nice lathe! Sure would look nice in my home hobby shop. :D

Well heck it costs nothing to dream.

Mcgyver
07-14-2006, 10:22 PM
what? no 4 jaw? pass.


:D

DancingBear
07-14-2006, 10:50 PM
Great. Now my den is knee-deep in drool! :D

There is one disadvantage to that lathe: if you make scrap, there isn't a shred of doubt about where the fault lies...

Walt

greywynd
07-15-2006, 12:35 AM
Well, that one is in nice shape. I will say though, with using the two that we have at work, with a couple exceptions they aren't a whole lot different than any other decent small/midsize lathe. Long this stock still deflects and cuts tapers, stuff can (and will) runout and need to be indicated, etc. The variable speed is nice, but there are lots of fellas on here that have figured out different ways to do that on any lathe. The collet setup also works nice, but they are really made for that purpose. (Tapping in a 3 jaw on these can be interesting because of the mounting method for the chucks.)

I'd be willing that there are quite a few people on here that can make nicer stuff on an old South Bend or Atlas then some people could on that Hardinge. It's a matter of getting to know how to use the equipment. $15,000 is a good chunk of coin for a lathe, a lot of the folks on here could equip their entire shop for that. (I'm sure some of you have done it for less.)

(Mind you I'd also take the Hardinge in my shop if it was offered!!)

Mark

Fasttrack
07-15-2006, 01:06 PM
"There is one disadvantage to that lathe: if you make scrap, there isn't a shred of doubt about where the fault lies..."

lmao - yeah i was thinking, "boy what a beautiful piece of machinery; i wish i could afford something like that", but then i read that and realized i'd better just stick with my three-in-one. That way i always have a handy excuse when i screw stuff up. :D

"I'd be willing that there are quite a few people on here that can make nicer stuff on an old South Bend or Atlas then some people could on that Hardinge."

Doesn't matter whether its a cheap inport or an atlas or a southbend -- if it was me with the hardinge thats too true! lol

thistle
07-15-2006, 02:39 PM
If there was a Santa Claus he could drop one of those down the chimney, and and equally nice 10 ee , a suitable dro to match each machine , then toss in a nice green FP3 or 4 (dros as well ), then maybe a colchester 15x50 - probably 2500 rpm please,alsoWells index variable speed head 3hp,the verticle horizontal model, then when santa has done all that he should have learned a few things and he cansurprise me with a surface grinder and also start on the cnc stuff ........oh what a long list it would be.

gundog
07-15-2006, 02:44 PM
I wonder what reliable has in it$? Don't you just wish you could have got it before they did.
GD

Alistair Hosie
07-15-2006, 03:26 PM
Don't misunderstand me that lathe is in beautiful condition, and is all there, but apart from that it is very expensive .These are great lathes but I have seen them albeit not as shiney as that one go for very small sums of money on ebay here in the uk can't understand why.I have seen hardinges go for £100 and above so it would make more sense to buy a cheap one and do it up.I would love one as a second lathe but prefer a monarch 10 ee anyday lovely piece of eqipment but in my opinion overpriced Alistair

daryl bane
07-15-2006, 05:38 PM
This lathe is with a bunch of other equally fine stuff, deckel, tree mill, etc. It all belonged to one guy. I wondered what the story was? Did he die, lose interest? The copy said the guy was a JPL engineer and these were his personal machines. Certainly the makins of a dream shop.

DancingBear
07-15-2006, 05:53 PM
... I'd be willing that there are quite a few people on here that can make nicer stuff on an old South Bend or Atlas then some people could on that Hardinge. It's a matter of getting to know how to use the equipment. $15,000 is a good chunk of coin for a lathe, a lot of the folks on here could equip their entire shop for that. (I'm sure some of you have done it for less.)

(Mind you I'd also take the Hardinge in my shop if it was offered!!)

Mark

Yeah, it's all really about skill more than tools. And 15 grand would do a pretty nice job of equipping a shop. It's definitely about 14.5 grand more than I paid for mine. Yes, it's a lot nicer, but not 30 times nicer.

But if someone gave me one I'd jump on it like a spawning salmon!

Walt

Evan
07-15-2006, 06:08 PM
When I see something like that it makes me wonder what it is like to be Bill Gates. When he wants something the only question is whether it exists or not, and if it doesn't, can it be made to exist?

There are a lot of people around that wouldn't think twice about spending that sort of money. The cost of something plays no part in their buying decision. That is a very pretty lathe and would turn out work as well as the person using it is capable of doing.

There is an old saying, "A poor workman blames his tools". To some degree that is true. However, even the best workman will be limited by the capability of his tools and the better the tools the better the product the workman is able to make.

Alistair Hosie
07-15-2006, 06:42 PM
I agree with you Evan but having expensive eqipment no matter how expensive will not produce better work in a statistical sense I E if you pay fifteen grand as opposed to say a grand an equall worker will not produce an article fifteen times better that's a fact. However nice tools make you sometimes approach a job with a better attitude if you take a lot of care over your machines then the likelyhood is you will adopt a better aproach to your work ethic.Alistair

wierdscience
07-16-2006, 11:06 AM
I am expected to turnout work that functions well both in fit and finish everyday on what is basically wornout junk.Mind you I don't mind doing it so long as occasionally when I see the chance to make things better I can(new tooling,spindle bearings etc.).

However when on occasion I do get to use a machine that is in top notch shape or at least new it's like taking a vacation.You enjoy yourself while you are there,but get depressed when you have to go home:D

Alistair,there has been an argument as to which is better the Hardinge or the Monarch 10EE for many years.I think I'll need one of each so I can do a proper comparison,care to contribute to a worthy cause?:D

BobWarfield
07-16-2006, 11:47 AM
Bill Gates, believe it or not, is not a very materialistic person. There are some of his peers, like Larry Ellison, who are. I used to workout at the same gym as Larry (not a very fancy gym, BTW, but tucked away and not frequented, which is why he liked it) and heard him say $30 million is the sum of money were you can buy anything that makes even the least sense. Beyond that, he says the money is all about ego. Mind you, his toys are world beating yachts and fighter planes, and not machine tools, but you see the point.

I do think that while it is hard to argue these nice tools are worth "30x more", there are some projects requiring perhaps a degree of precision and difficulty, where it might be almost impossible to do them without the proper tools. We've all watched with amusement when some young turk arrives ready to convert his drill press into a mill that cuts at 300 ipm with perfect precision and just wants to know "how to build that."

I suspect the JPL guy's issue may have been one that many of us have--time. He had money to buy the tools (BTW, in aggregate they didn't cost him as much as a single Italian Exotic Sports car in all likelihood, machine tools are a cheap hobby), but no time to pursue the hobby.

Time is one thing even Bill Gates can't buy much more of. Enjoy the time you've got and make many wonderful things!

And by all means, let's continue the Hardinge versus Monarch debate--they're both outrageous home shop machines!

Best,

BW

Mcgyver
07-16-2006, 12:27 PM
I do think that while it is hard to argue these nice tools are worth "30x more",

I vaguely remember something in economics, call the utility curve iirc? basically it says you can't universally say lathe A or B is better (say B was 3x the price and 25% better however you define better). What determines for you which is better is the utility you are prepared to pay for. If ya got 'em smoke 'em boys....how much you want the utility and how much you have and are prepared to spend determines what's better for you. with the right economic freedom i'd write a cheque for a new Hardinge and suffer no guilt but as was said it also carves away a lot of excuses:)

a guy like Gates is at such a stratospheric place on the curve, its like a different existence. I spent my morning making BA nut drivers, wonder what Bill did? I think there'd inevitably be some change in how you spend your time with 100b in the bank. not that I'm only making nut drivers cuz that's all i can afford to do with my time, I like making nut drivers, but in his shoes it might be really hard to decide that was the highest and best use of time.

Wirecutter
07-16-2006, 12:42 PM
What a great thread! Like many here, I've drooled and dreamed of HLV's, 10EEs, FP-1s, FP-3s, etc. But I haven't had a chance to see a serious debate comparing them, by people who have experience with them.

I fall into the category of those who could (and have) equipped a home shop for a fraction of the cost of that HLV. As nice as it would be, having an HLV would be, for me, like having a home audio system costing as much. I'm not a sufficiently sophisticated audiophile to appreciate the difference between say, a $1500 audio system and a full-blown $20,000 setup. (Oh, I certainly could learn!)

LOL - I could make some seriously fine high-precision scrap with such a nice machine, though. :D

But seriously - I've only ever laid hands on an HLV one time, and that was only for a second.

(Tapping in a 3 jaw on these can be interesting because of the mounting method for the chucks.)

Mark

What exactly is it about the chuck mount? I'm guessing it's some kind of locking setup, unlike my SB9, which simply screws on.

I'd be interested in hearing more of the 10EE-vs-HLV debate. Maybe someday I'll out-grow my little South Bend, or hit the lottery. I guess I'll be due for a midlife crisis soon - a little preparation may be in order...

-Mark

thistle
07-19-2006, 04:20 PM
here is an article on SBs,Hardinges and 10 ees that is rather relavant..

from livesteaming

http://www.livesteaming.com/Choosing%20a%20lathe.htm

Tech Talk Article
I just found Livesteaming and read the articles about finding a newlathe or mill---and I wish to make a few comments.I have run lathes since I was thirteen years old and I apprenticed atthe National Bureau of Standards to the trade of Scientific InstrumentMaker. Of all the machine tools I have run, the Lathe and its cousin,the horizontal boring mill are by far my favorite. I will comment onlyon the smaller size lathes for this article.In the previous articles there was only slight mention of the South BendLathe and one of the authors passed them off as probably being old andtherefore sloppy. This is not necessarily the case. I have two SouthBend lathes, one is a 1955 model "A" Nine Inch bench lathe and the otheris an Eleven Inch South Bend made in 1936. Both machines turn outrevenue work in my shop and neither has any trouble holding size orrunning dependably.Of course the South Bend lathes won't compete with our high speed Lodgeand Shipley lathes, but the South Bend machines are assigned to workmore like that done by hobbyists and we take good care of all of ourmachines.If someone wants a very good lathe for model making or general machineshop work, I would heartily recommend three of South Bend's most popularlathes,the Nine Inch model "A", the Ten Inch (1 1/16" collet) or theThirteen Inch lathe.The Nine Inch - Never underestimate the South Bend 9" Lathe. Yes, itwas their economy model and it is small, but its record of accurate anddependable performance on small work speaks for itself. I have visitedinstrument shops where they had many little 9" South Bend lathes makingsmall brass parts and doing it for years. The machine is easy to run,quiet and invariably turns a very good finish. It can pull a surprisingcut in back gears and is an excellent screw cutter. Since a majority ofwork on small steam engines is very small, don't pass one up if it is ingood shape even if you already have a larger lathe.Don't be concerned that the 9" South Bend is a light machine. When theyare in good condition they are definitely not prone to chatter. Manymachinists complain when the tool and the machine vibrate during a cut,usually the fault is in the cutting tool but it is easier to blame amachine, especially a small one. In my experience I have heard many 20and 25 inch heavy duty American built lathes get up a miserable howl andin every case the cause has been either the cutting tool or the set up.No, the 1/2" collet capacity of the 9" lathe won't gomp down on a hogleg, but I have found that the little 3C collets make small work morefun. If most of your collet work is less than 1/2" in diameter thenthis is your lathe. By the way, Hardinge stocks the 3C collet in manysizes, round and hex.The Ten Inch - This is South Bend's tool and instrument maker's lathe.It is and has always been one of the best lathes in the business. Thenewer models (1960's and later) have an extended thread cutting rangeand of course, the fine feeds associated with the extended range.Despite the machine's small size it is a true industrial machine tool.It is the workhorse of the research and development shops inuniversities and industry. The back gears give this lathe more turningeffort than it really ought to have, while the flat belt drivegives it all the speed it actually needs.In all aspects the 10" South Bend lathe compares exceptionally well withthe Hardinge HLV-H lathe. This may sound outlandish, but I haveconsiderably more than a thousand hours logged on each of these lathesand I find the South Bend machine to be a bit more versatile in a widerange of small lathe work. More on this later.The 10" South Bend uses the 5C collet and swings a pretty big chuck forits size. The machine has a nice large faceplate and the back gearedslow speeds make for safe faceplate work. All South Bend lathes,especially the Tool Room models have very good lead screws so they canbe depended upon for chasing precision threads. The overall design isclean and open and the half nut lever is easy to work, making threadcutting easy. It seems to be my fate in the machine industry to have tocut a good many screw threads on the lathe, so I have come to judge theworth of a lathe by how conveniently it can be manipulated during threadcutting - The South Bend lathe is right near the top of my short list.The South Bend lathe is characterized by its flat belt drive and plainbearing spindle. The machine won't rotate very fast, but the trade offis that there is no finer machine for cutting thin wall cup shaped work,especially in brass. There is a smoothness to the drive and the spindlebearings that defies chatter. In general there are few lathes in anyprice range that can turn as fine a finish as these lathes. I havefound that high speed lathes tend to tempt the operator to run way toofast, resulting in tools that dull quickly and a considerable amount ofspoiled work.The trick with the South Bend lathe seems to be to give the cutting toolconsiderable top and back rake. This allows the cutting tool to shearthe material easily and demand less power. The resulting finish is justgreat and the reasonable cutting speeds allow the rather sharp tool tocut for a long time without dulling. Remember, both the hobbyist andthe instrument maker are interested in accurate size and fine finish.Let the production departments deal with high rotative speeds and hot,heavy cuts.The 13 Inch - This machine is just a 10 Inch machine made large. Ithas a robust bed and a large headstock leg with the motor mounted in it.The left hand legs are solidly cast and the machine levels right up withease. The South Bend 13 Inch lathe is heavier in the bed and carriageand tailstock than most modern lathes of comparable swing.Be careful in your comparisons, many lathes are quite heavy because ofthe gear transmission in their headstocks. weight there does not make arigid machine, the size and weight have to be in the bed and carriageand tailstock.The 13 Inch strikes the best balance between the tool and instrumentlathe and the regular engine lathe. It is sensitive and very easy tomanipulate and every bit as accurate as any lathe made. It also isstout and strong and it will not fade in front of large diameter work.This lathe will chase a 1/4-28 thread or a 1 1/2 - 8 with equal ease.Along with its 10 Inch brother it handles large diameter very finethreads so well that they are a joy to cut.For the live steam hobby, this is the lathe for locomotive drivers andlarge flywheels.These large diameter castings are too delicate for the speed and powerof the big gear head lathes and they require a fine finish forappearance. Again this is where the flat belt drive and the plainbearing spindle come into their own.A note about headstocks. When engine lathes were used in production,speed and power were essential. Manufacturers of lathes designed geartransmissions for lathes to get high turning effort at high speeds inorder to allow the lathe to remove a great deal of metal in the shortesttime. From the late 1940's on, engine lathes had even heavierheadstocks with larger power transmission capacity so the machines couldtake advantage of the tungsten carbide tooling that was being applied toproduction work.For general lathe work and especially for the hobbyist, none of thisspeed and power is necessary. I can't understand why lathes of 13 Inchswing and smaller have to have the complication and potential mechanicaltrouble associated with a geared headstock. It seems that, especiallyamongst the newer imported lathes, the geared headstock was what wasexpected or what was scaled down when the machine was designed.

thistle
07-19-2006, 04:21 PM
On top of all that, to save cost, the headstock was somewhatminitaurized - the spindle is quite short and the gearing is rathersmall. I have known several owners of the newer imported lathes whowere disappointed with their machines because of problems with theheadstock drive.Generally speaking - if you are not doing a time and motion study ofpart production you don't need a gear drive headstock on your lathe.The South Bend back gears do their job when heavy cuts are needed,otherwise they do not turn with the spindle causing wear and heat buildup. Modern flat belts do not slip, I have seen a thirteen inch lathealmost stall a three horsepower motor without the belt slipping.A note on speed - Most modern lathes are capable of turning way toofast. When I was a young, hot apprentice I wanted to have my lathe turnfast. Yes, I cut a lot of metal in a hurry, but I was frequently at thegrinder sharpening my burned out tools.When they say to run a chucking reamer at half the speed for drillingthey mean half the proper speed for drilling. I could get away withdrilling too fast, but I never got away with reaming too fast. Mybosses didn't care if I learned the hard way with turning tools but theysure showed displeasure at my turning the ends of expensive reamers darkblue.Point here, Spindle speeds over 900 rpm are for Star Trek. I am oldenough to admit that I am no Captain Kirk. I turn slowly and I turncarefully.The cult lathes - Many hobbyists and even shop owners pay large sums ofmoney for the Hardinge HLV-H and the Monarch 10 Inch model EE lathes.These are what I call trophy machines. These machines came out in theearly 1050's when there was a lot of experimentation with electromechanical devices. Government and private industry research anddevelopment accounts financed them and most of the work done on them wasa cross between watch making and fine istrument work. Their highspindle speeds served well on aluminum and magnesium and they were andare very good at cutting fine threads. I have logged many hours onthese machines since they were very common at the Bureau of Standardsshop and at other shops I have worked in.Frankly I think they are impractical. The Monarch Model EE should havehad a 13 inch swing and a foot longer between centers. The lathe sure ispowerful enough to be a 13 inch and it is way too short. The tailstockhas only a No.2 Morse taper in its spindle, consequently the machine's 5horsepower isn't available for drilling and the lathe doesn't likeknurling close to the tailstick any better than a 10 Inch South Benddoes.The HLV-H. We apprentices soom came to the conclusion that if the workcan fit in a 5C collet then it is all right to put it on the Hardinge,otherwise go find a Pratt & Whitney.The Hardinge lathe is one of the most beautiful lathes ever made. Eventhe Swiss and Germans buy them. Sadly to say they are one of the mostclumsy things ever called a lathe. The full width carriage doesn'tallow the tailstock to come close enough to the spindle for short, smalldiameter work. If you have to support a short, skinny piece with acenter, you have to extend the tailstock spindle way too far just to getsome carriage travel for the turning cut. Wait a minute - aren't youusing the Hardinge for small, short work? Oh, well, if you need atailstock center, go find a Monarch EE or an old Pratt & Whitney. Bythe way, when I started my apprentceship, the NBS shop had just got allnew Hardinge lathes because they replaced all their 10 Inch South Bends.Even the journeymen were just learning the Hardinge lathes.The Hardinge is almost useless with a four jaw chuck. To get the spindleto run slow enough to cut steel, you have to run the motor in slowspeed, there are no back gears. Anything like a heavy cut causes themotor to stall. So much for turning steam engine flywheels andcylinders.Both the Monarch and the Hardinge run normally with their end gears andlead screws disconnected, their feed mechanisms are drivenindependently. This allows the lathes to turn at fantastic speeds -which are impressive but useless. The chips coming off brass make apainfully hot shower, aluminum wads up its chips almost immediately andforces you to stop the machine to clear them and you just can't cutsteel that fast even with carbide.The lathes don't like it either I have seen HLV-H headstock bearingsfail and they failed on a lathe that wasn't often used by apprentices.Am I ever glad, we got the blame for enough mischief in that shopanyway.If you plan to do a lot of thread cutting on fine work, the Monarch andthe Hardinge are worth the investment. Both of them are the best threadcutting lathes I have ever used. They have setable stops and quickreversing features so that threads can be cut right up to shoulders andinto blind holes without a problem. For collet work these lathes can'tbe beat and, of course they are more accurately aligned than any latheneeds to be. For work in a collet or a pot chuck, no lathe is moreconvenient than the Hardinge.Both of these machines were popular in industry because they are able tomake super accurate complicated parts within their range of operation insmall to medium lot production runs. This is not what hobbyists do.My advice to the hobbyist is to talk to a reputable used machine tooldealer. Don't get the idea that he is your adversary, just tell himright out that you want a good used lathe and work with him. He wantsyou to be satisfied and what you pay for a good machine tool will bereturned many times in satisfying operation. I have run my 11 InchSouth Bend since 1966 and the machine was new in 1936. any cost of themachine by now has paled to insignificance. That machine has become alifelong friend.Don't get scard by stories of worn out old machines, there are many usedmachines that are in first class shape and the price of manual machinesis way down due to the new CNC machines. Frankly I won't buy a new lathefrom anybody because of all the really nice machines out there rightnow. They are really a good value and they come with most of the chucksand tooling that you have to order extra with a new machine.Most used machine tool dealers belong to the Machinery Dealers NationalAsociatioon (MDNA) they have a thirty day return policy, if the machineisn't right they will take it back. See if the new import dealers offerthat kind of back up - most don't.Next time around, I'll jump on the subject of the machine shop's mostugly necessary evil, the milling machine.

Jim Kizale

Cecil Walker
07-19-2006, 04:55 PM
Thanks for posting that Thistle, a very enjoyable read, especially since i agree with almost every statement.

Evan
07-19-2006, 05:30 PM
I don't read anything that long with no paragraphs. It makes me dizzy.

DR
07-19-2006, 05:47 PM
Anybody else notice this Hardinge doesn't have the usual taper nose on the spindle? It appears to be a "D" type mount, probably D3 or 4. Check the picture showing the chuck and spindle.

The seller's verbage mentions taper mount, but that's obviously copied directly out of Hardinge literature and doesn't apply to this machine.

I wonder if that was a special, or maybe they offered that as an option on the later models. Either way, it's about time. The Hardinge taper nose is awful.

thistle
07-19-2006, 07:58 PM
yes, thats awall of text there, i just copied and pasted thatas it came from the site.

sparker
07-19-2006, 09:02 PM
I have two of these but older models at my job. the chuck mounting is horrible, it is basically a locating pin with a keyway. and yes they do have a tapered spindle.

Wareagle
07-19-2006, 10:11 PM
When I see something like that it makes me wonder what it is like to be Bill Gates

You know, I am glad that I am not Bill Gates, or have an enormous bank account. Those guys can have anything they want, and anytime they want. They don't have to plan, and work, and save to get what they want. They just do it, no challenge. For me, a lot of the excitement lies in working towards a goal. I guess less money equals more satisfaction when you are able to get something.

Now, if I were a Bill Gates, then I'd have one heck of a shop for sure, but then what? Somehow it doesn't seem like it would be the same.

BobWarfield hit the nail on the head regarding time; enjoy it while you have it! There is no amount of money that can buy back yesterday!

wierdscience
07-19-2006, 10:39 PM
You know, I am glad that I am not Bill Gates, or have an enormous bank account. Those guys can have anything they want, and anytime they want. They don't have to plan, and work, and save to get what they want. They just do it, no challenge. For me, a lot of the excitement lies in working towards a goal. I guess less money equals more satisfaction when you are able to get something.

Now, if I were a Bill Gates, then I'd have one heck of a shop for sure, but then what? Somehow it doesn't seem like it would be the same.

BobWarfield hit the nail on the head regarding time; enjoy it while you have it! There is no amount of money that can buy back yesterday!

Be glad your not rich,my boss isn't rich in Gates terms,but he is well off.Many people treat him like dirt simply because he has money.Everybody has the're hand out or feel he owes them something.The attitude persists that "he can afford it".He originally setup the shop to be a self-supporting hobby to stay busy during his "retirement" years,but everybody thinks he is getting rich,if they only knew that the shop barely makes money and the taxes go up every year along with the light bill.

I find the folks I have met who have railed against the "fat cats" and the "rich" have turned out to be the biggest thieves.There are people in my town who are very wealthy,the local gossip and scuttlebut has them being evil heartless bastards,but in reality they are the ones who top the list of charitable donors when people are in need.

No sir,I would not want to be rich,or if I ever was I wouldn't tell anybody or show it off.I used to wonder why certain very wealthy people assume lives of poverty,now I know.

Wareagle
07-19-2006, 11:01 PM
wierdscience, to carry this one step further, people think that being rich means you don't have to work. Actually, that logic is false; your full time job then becomes managing the fortune and keeping everyone else from stripping it away (like the taxman, those unknown relatives, scammers, etc.).

All I want to do is make a comfortable living and have an enjoyable retirement. They can keep those millions for themselves, I'm fine without it!

wierdscience
07-19-2006, 11:51 PM
Yup,to many times I have seen people just sit around after they retire and more often than not they don't live long.While on the otherhand I know quite a few people who are well into the're 80's that are still very active in the're daily lives doing whatever they please in terms of work.

My grandfather lived to be 97,he mowed his own lawn,chopped brush out of the fence rows and pulled grain wagons out of the field up until six months before he died.He had only quit driving the year before that.His mind was still sharp as a tack and we believe the only reason he died then was because grandma had died the year before and after having been married for 65 years it was more than he could take losing her,she was his anchor in life.

If we are only so blessed.

Wareagle
07-19-2006, 11:59 PM
My wife's grandparents are in their 90's. Very active, involved, and always travelling around the world. They made a trip to the Amazon earlier this year. I think they are planning a trip to Africa for the fall.

If I make it to that age, I hope that I am half as active as they are!

DR
07-20-2006, 12:13 PM
Hey, would you guys stop this nonsense about not wanting to be wealthy.

And why is it you only hear that from people who aren't wealthy?

BobWarfield
07-20-2006, 02:21 PM
And why is it you only hear that from people who aren't wealthy?

Because unless you are really wealthy, you never believe you are wealthy, while everyone around you always assumes you are. All those numbers the government uses to determine who falls in which class are ridiculously low if you are living somewhere with a high cost of living. Truth is, wealth is a relative measure that is largely a state of mind and a degree of freedom. If you have to work hard to maintain your lifestyle, you aren't really wealthy. So, you either have to make a lot more or learn to live with a lot less. Either one works, BTW.

Now did anyone notice what the Hardinge lathe and Deckel mill finally sold for? Over $25K for the lathe?!??

It was a real beauty, but man was it expensive in the end. I think the Deckel mill, by comparison only, was a bargain, having sold for $8200. Whatever we may think of those prices, this JPL Engineer knew how to set up a nice shop. I wonder if he ever got to play with it much?

I've read stories of similar shops in people's garages that are filled with modern Haas VMC's and other goodies. Also quite interesting. Sometimes these guys are building really cool stuff and other times you just wonder. Personally, I just have to play with the toys, so they tend to show wear pretty quickly around my place.

Best,

BW

thistle
07-20-2006, 03:37 PM
25k

i wonder if they gave a free scotchbright treatment for that ?

HWooldridge
07-20-2006, 06:33 PM
Good article from "Live Steam" - thanks, 'thistle'. Makes me feel better about my 1946 Sheldon.

I worked for a billionaire - close beside him, every day for two years - before he sold the company and retired at 80. He might still be alive but I don't know. At any rate, he was not happier than anyone else. He was secure from the standpoint of being able to acquire almost any material thing but he still contracted skin cancer. The difference was that treatment wasn't an issue since he could go to MD Anderson or the Mayo without regard for the money.

He paid all his employees quite well but demanded a lot - both in time and dedication. I could tell a lot of stories but one that has stuck with me was when our quality manager wanted to take a weekend (that's right - Saturday and Sunday) to see his daughter get married. The company owner told him that he needed to get his priorities straight and work came before personal life. Needless to say, the QA guy went to the wedding, but he was "tainted" from then on and left a few months thereafter.

The boss didn't have a personal life and had essentially divorced himself from three grown children and his ex-wife. At 75, he got a 28 year old woman pregnant and then paid her $300K to abort the baby. I could tell more but won't waste the band width. After I had worked for him a few months, I lost the desire to make a lot of money. I don't put Bill Gates in the same classification but it occurs to me that big money seems to warp people to a degree.

Evan
07-20-2006, 07:03 PM
I have as customers more than a few people that are very well off. One couple have bought 3 or 4 expensive computer systems from me over the years and have become good friends. They are from Switzerland and own a good sized ranch well out of town here. Thier daughter is still in Switzerland and manages their properties there, especially the riding stables. Here they have a beautiful large log ranch house including a full size pool that they keep heated all winter long even at -40.

They are very nice people, becoming somewhat elderly but still very sharp. They seem just as careful with their money as anyone else and aren't wastefully extravagant. Neither of them has anything resembling a stuck up attitude and they drive a 4x4 Suburban. They do however buy the best and don't waste time trying to save nickels and dimes.

I have a lot of german immigrants as customers here because I am the only computer geek in town that can speak german and find my way around a german copy of Windows. Many of these customers are wealthy and I haven't seen one that I would classify as obnoxious or who flaunts their money. They are generally nice people. I suspect this is the case with most wealthy people. I know that if I had more money I wouldn't change much of what I do. I would still come to work but I might lower my prices a bit more.

BillH
07-20-2006, 07:05 PM
...No sir,I would not want to be rich,or if I ever was I wouldn't tell anybody or show it off...

I can agree on not telling anyone else, as the people around you change, just ask Dave Chapelle. However Suit yourself on the other half. I wish I was rich, then I wouldnt have to go back to school to get a job and suck up all my free time where I could be in the workshop building live steam locomotives and go kayaking everyday and own my own airplane and fly somewhere anytime I felt like it.
I suppose I could also buy my steam locomotives but bahhhhh, I want to build em!

Mcgyver
07-20-2006, 07:08 PM
HW, too bad the guy's an SOB, but that anecdote doesn't make there a correlation between being rich and being unhappy - imagine what prick he'd have been if he was poor!

I've done deals with several billionaires (and alot of ____hundredmillionaires, not much practical difference), and would argue the other way. (that line sounded arrogant, wasn't meant to, it was just the nature of the work at the time) the ones i know are gentlemen, treat everyone with dignity and live large with big smiles on their faces. They generally have to be because to get to a B you need a lot of people around you & supporting you, customers, employees, managers, investors, advisor's etc. Complete arseholes can't do that - of course there are exceptions, these guys usually show a level of charisma, integrity and fair play. On the other had I've see lack of money make people bitter, scornful and jealous.

The may be lots of miserable rich people around, but there's miserable poor as well, there isn't a correlation, except with an extreme lack of money a whole new set of stresses. Me, I the unhappy poor working to to be one of the happy rich, not quite there but working at it every day :D i guess the real trick though is to be happy in your own skill

DR
07-20-2006, 07:16 PM
........

The boss didn't have a personal life and had essentially divorced himself from three grown children and his ex-wife. At 75, he got a 28 year old woman pregnant and then paid her $300K to abort the baby. I could tell more but won't waste the band width. After I had worked for him a few months, I lost the desire to make a lot of money. I don't put Bill Gates in the same classification but it occurs to me that big money seems to warp people to a degree.

Interesting story, but my guess is the guy was a wacko before he had money.

I have a wacko brother who has a number of anti-social tendencies and having a bunch of money is about the only thing that makes him happy. He's worth around 20 million, but he's still the same wacko he was before he earned the money.

DR
07-20-2006, 07:32 PM
Speaking of wealth....I admit it I'm a millionaire.

But, so are all our neighbors. In my neighborhood our paid for $20K home purchased 30 years ago is now worth $600K. Both my wife and I have worked and put the max amount in our retirement programs. Real estate and retirement savings makes us millionaires.

The catch is, as J Paul Getty used to say, "a million dollars isn't what it used to be".

I never would have dreamed 30 years ago that I'd be a millionaire. Now that I'm there it just doesn't seem like so much money. I'm sure as long as our health holds we'll both continue working, probably shortening our hours when we reach the age of maturity for social security.

Wareagle
07-20-2006, 10:11 PM
[QUOTE=HWooldridge]He paid all his employees quite well but demanded a lot - both in time and dedication. I could tell a lot of stories but one that has stuck with me was when our quality manager wanted to take a weekend (that's right - Saturday and Sunday) to see his daughter get married. The company owner told him that he needed to get his priorities straight and work came before personal life. Needless to say, the QA guy went to the wedding, but he was "tainted" from then on and left a few months thereafter.

The boss didn't have a personal life QUOTE]
My wife just left a company that had that same philosophy. She was wrapped up in trying to keep on top of things. The more she did, the more they expected. Obviously she was unhappy, and che came to realize that her priority was her job, and not her family. She'd cancel plans, work all weekend, every evening, and even would take her computer on vacation in order to make a deadline. None of the effort was appreciated.

They paid very well, but in the end, she realized the money wasn't worth it. She landed at another company doing the same job, with less than half the work load, about a tenth of the stress, and is making the same money!

Work to live; don't live to work!

wierdscience
07-20-2006, 10:32 PM
Interesting story, but my guess is the guy was a wacko before he had money.

I have a wacko brother who has a number of anti-social tendencies and having a bunch of money is about the only thing that makes him happy. He's worth around 20 million, but he's still the same wacko he was before he earned the money.

I have dealt with a few wackos too,one like you say would be a wacko if he were penniless.
Still another was nutty as a fruitcake,likeable enough just stone crazy.How he ever made it I don't know,quess he falls into the "Bucket of s***" category.

Milacron of PM
07-20-2006, 10:47 PM
Speaking of wealth....I admit it I'm a millionaire.


The catch is, as J Paul Getty used to say, "a million dollars isn't what it used to be".

I never would have dreamed 30 years ago that I'd be a millionaire. Now that I'm there it just doesn't seem like so much money. .

Yeah, due to inflation, a million net worth US dollars, no longer means you are officially "rich". It's almost a shame we don't have another catchy phrase wealth point designation in between "millionaire" and "billionaire", as there is a huge gulf between the two !

There is "multimillionaire" of course...but besides those pesky extra two syllables to pronounce, here again, a world of difference in having 2 million and 900 million net worth !

:)

JRouche
07-20-2006, 11:00 PM
Well, since the thread has already veered, here I go too....:D

Rich folks, I work in an area that is soaked with them.

They still sit on a crapper, drive in bumper to bumper traffic, get colds, have family die off, breath smog, sweat, get hungry, get full, get horny, get impotent, pick their nose, and their ass, swear, get swore at, stub their toes, bump their elbows, get dust in their eyes, sunburn too.

They have all the little things in life which MAKE life, no different from any other person when it comes down to the brass tacks..

On a side: I have been to a few too many suicides and righteous attempts of many very to do folks and their kids. Dont see nearly as many in the "poorer" part of town. No real stats there, just a seat of the pants examination....JRouche

A.K. Boomer
07-21-2006, 12:54 AM
Getting back to the lathe, thats my friends machine that i will be running tomorrow morning --- septin he has a six station turit tool holder and a massive single point thread attachment that mounts directly above and behind,,, this machine is not only a thing of beauty --- it is so amazing on how well it not only holds tolerance but also puts a finish on parts due to its rigidity, somebody said something on the lines of getting the same results with a smithy,,,,, your flat out smoking crack,,,,, you put the same experianced machinist on both machines and the work will speak for itself, there is only so far you can tweak a piece of crap ------ but when your dealing with the good stuff the sky is the limit, i want a tenth, i not only got it with repeat but i got it with a nice finish.... dont ever try that on a smithy, believe me, there is a reason why one costs twenty times more, Im not out to beat on all smithy owners but fer crys sakes dont even bring it up... its like compairing an f-50 to a metro......................... good luck getting the same results with the same experianced drivers,,,,

I got nuthin againsts smithies, for some of us its all we can afford -- I just posted this to keep things in perspective.

Orrin
07-21-2006, 01:24 PM
A recent Discover magazine article on happiness brought out an interesting fact: wealth does not make much difference in whether a person is happy or unhappy.

I tend to agree. I've known loads of dirt-poor people who were happy and carefree; and, I've known a few wealthy people who were not any happier than the next guy.

IMHO, many people are chronically unhappy, regardless.

Orrin

Evan
07-21-2006, 02:06 PM
I tend to agree. I've known loads of dirt-poor people who were happy and carefree; and, I've known a few wealthy people who were not any happier than the next guy.

Yeah, but money can buy good meds...

Milacron of PM
07-21-2006, 03:38 PM
Re happiness-

www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/8/60.html

Orrin
07-22-2006, 08:26 PM
Thank you for that link, Don. The first time around I think I skipped reading it because of its length. I think that HuFlungDung did a great job of summing it up: "...what you think will be great, seldom is, and what you think will be bad, is seldom as bad as expected."

In fact, it's so good that I might ask permission to use it with my signatures.

Regards,

Orrin

texas_po_boy
07-23-2006, 09:22 AM
Well needless to say I don’t have any of these but I am happy with my 1946 Sheldon at the moment. Although if I had one of them and screwed up it should be a very accurate screw up.