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View Full Version : Please help me understand the fascination with SB lathes.



Mark Hockett
07-26-2006, 03:16 AM
Let me first say that I am not a collector of machine tools or antiques. I don’t have my tools to impress my buddies. I‘ve used tools to make a living from the age of 16. I have never cared too much where my tools were made, only if they could perform the job at hand and put food on my table. Back in the 1970’s in high school I learned how to use a lathe. I was 15 years old and it was a South Bend lathe that I learned on. The school shop had South Bend and Clausing lathes. I remember how the Clausing lathes were so much better to use and seemed to be more modern.

I read the article in the latest MW issue about the South Bend lathes factory rebuilt program. I could not believe the price they get to rebuild one or why anyone would spend that kind of money ($9000.00 to $12,000.00) to do so. The author did admit to becoming the instant envy of all his tool minded buddies. That reminds me of the people who base a home purchase on how well they can entertain friends at the house.

I look at the picture of the Heavy 10 in the article and many things jump out to say these were cheap lathes compared to the Leblonds, Clausings, Monarchs and others of the day. My reason for this opinion is the following: Flat belt drive, carriage feed from the lead screw only (which should only be used for threading), light duty tailstock with no camlock, noisy open chip grabbing QC gear box for carriage feeds, slow spindle speeds, small spindle bore, thread on chuck (which the author changed to a camlock for $1800.00), antiquated back gear design, no spindle brake, spindle bearings or lack of, low HP for the size of lathe, weak bed and way over priced when the last heavy 10 was sold in 2004 (over $20,000.00, the cost of a new Haas TL-1 CNC lathe).

For the cost of a rebuilt SB a person could buy a new industrial quality heavy-duty lathe such as an American Turnmaster 13-40.

http://www.lagun.com/products/americanturnmaster/AT-13-40.html

That is a lathe that copies the Clausing Colchester. I have used both the American Turnmaster and the Clausing that it copies and can say that it is every bit as good if not better than the original, due to the Turcite on the saddle.

For the average guy who just wants to tinker and finds one of those $500.00 SB lathes I think that a great way to go. It’s a great lathe for beginners, very simple to use and not very intimidating. But to spend $9000.00 to $12,000.00 to rebuild one, not including the cost of the lathe, camlock spindle and shipping, I think is insane. I guess if someone is into collecting antiques and wants a restored SB lathe that is one thing but then maybe it should be in a museum.

The author talks about the hardened bed being able to last a lifetime, but his 1979 vintage lathe needed to have the bed reground and the lathe rebuild. Is a lifetime only 27 years? I have seen many 60’s vintage Leblonds, Monarchs and Clausings that were used in industrial environments that did not need to be rebuilt. I hope the author doesn’t use his lathe much because at the rate SB has downsized they wont be around for the next rebuild. I hate to say that and I wish SB could have modernized their products enough to stay competitive in the machine tool market but they didn’t and have suffered for it.

So please help me understand why SB lathes are so popular. What makes them so good? I personally think the one thing SB did right was marketing. It seems like they put those lathes in almost every high school and college metal shop in the U.S. So if you learn on specific type lathe chances are when you purchase one it will be the same type and when your buddy sees it he will want one too. The next thing you know we have this cult following of SB lathes.

I am not trying to badmouth anyone’s lathe, I too have owned a 9” SB lathe as one of my first lathes. I made many nice parts with it but I sold it to upgrade to a larger lathe with more features. I am just questioning why someone would spend $9000.00 to $12,000.00 to rebuild one when a much better lathe could be purchased with that kind of money. And I would like to know what the fascination with SB is.

I know I will probably get beat up on this board for this but its just my opinion

Mark Hockett
Island Tech Enterprises
Clinton, WA 98236
360-914-6026

More chip less lip

John Stevenson
07-26-2006, 04:13 AM
Mark,
I have to agree with you on certain things about the South Bend, keeping up with modern design wasn't one of their best features.
Now I know many who own one will say they are happy with it but for anyone looking to buy a new machine when they look at what SB offered against their competitors then it's no contest.

And it's no good someone who owns a 1939 lathe saying it's the best thing since sliced bread because one lathe sale in 70 odd years won't keep a company afloat, they need current sales. Buying second hand won't generate the company any money if the original owner doesn't buy new off them.

In or just after WWII Boxford's in the UK took on board the SB lathe under license. Over the years they modified this to keep up with modern trends, under drive motors, vee belts and later variable speed.

Take a look on Tony's page at the various models.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/boxford/page3.html

Boxfords are still going today with their adaptation of the SB lathe.

http://www.boxford.co.uk/boxford/docs/products/manlathes.htm


.

Millman
07-26-2006, 04:14 AM
Not one factory or machine shop I worked in ever had a South Bend. They're more of a HSM machine. During WW2 alot of businesses got their start at home in a garage, and the SBs were cheap enough to make the governments war parts. No comparison to Clausing, Monarchs, so on. They are popular because made in USA, affordable, and accurate enough for one-offs.

IOWOLF
07-26-2006, 05:49 AM
I never could understand it either,But like the profits reaped from those guys that have to have SB products.

That being said, I do have a SB 7" shaper and use it from time to time.

Peter N
07-26-2006, 06:26 AM
Same in the UK with Myford. Factory re-furbs are reasonably priced, but who would pay $9000-$13000 for a new, limited capacity, hobby lathe?

I have a Myford (1967 machine) and I like it a lot, but I would not buy a new one at that price.

Peter

JCHannum
07-26-2006, 07:50 AM
I haven't seen the article, and am not necessarily a South Bend fan.

They are a good lathe, and many consider them among the best simply because that is the lathe they have been exposed to. Many learned on them, and there are many in machine shops and maintenance shops even today. They are common, available and parts are available for them. I would rather have a good South Bend than a comparable sized economy Asian import. When you get into the better quality of import machines, the prices become comparable.

There are better lathes, and there are worse. Having a lathe factory rebuilt is about the only way of getting a "new" American made machine. If you were to purchase a new Heavy Ten, the price will be higher, and delivery long term.

Monarch is (or was) factory rebuilding their lathes as well. With the loss of foundries, and the high cost of castings, factory rebuild programs do make sense.

Milacron of PM
07-26-2006, 08:02 AM
In addition to JCH's comments, there is further warm and fuzziness directed at SB due to

1. Ads they grew up seeing in magazines
2. Perhaps learned on an SB at trade school
3. The name 'South Bend' rolls off the tongue nicely and sounds 10,000 times better than idiotic names like "Jet", "Grizzly", or "Busy Bee"
4. They appear as the epitomy of a classic manual basic lathe...like a lathe a cartoonist would draw when he needed to draw a "lathe" in the script.

:)

J Tiers
07-26-2006, 08:04 AM
Not one factory or machine shop I worked in ever had a South Bend. They're more of a HSM machine. During WW2 alot of businesses got their start at home in a garage, and the SBs were cheap enough to make the governments war parts. No comparison to Clausing, Monarchs, so on. They are popular because made in USA, affordable, and accurate enough for one-offs.

Have you ever SEEN a S-B? (I know you have seen many).

I ask the stupid question because there are sort-of two south-Bend lathe varieties.

There are the small 9" and so forth, very light-built, like an Atlas. For farms, auto shops etc, small e-motor turning etc.

Then there are 13" and above machines, including probably the "heavy 10".... Not anything like the little machines, they are made to do work. They are not the "super lathes" mentioned over on PM, but they will do serious work.

Ain't no 18" x 12 foot machine that can be called a "home shop" machine.... altthough I don't think it is remotely like a Monarch either. Probably were an awful lot of machines like that in local machine shops, boatyards, etc, etc.

The thing I can't figure out is how a rust-spotted 300lb 9" S-B with no accessories and no drive can possibly be put up[ for sale at $1000 with a straight face.... but I see it around here. No idea if they sell, but they are "for sale" at that sort of price..... when a good 10" Logan, half-again heavier, sells for a little over half that with accessories.

I think a lot of people don't know any other name of a lathe maker, and think S-B is something special.

thistle
07-26-2006, 08:06 AM
Not one factory or machine shop I worked in ever had a South Bend. They're more of a HSM machine. During WW2 alot of businesses got their start at home in a garage, and the SBs were cheap enough to make the governments war parts. No comparison to Clausing, Monarchs, so on. They are popular because made in USA, affordable, and accurate enough for one-offs.


HMMMM- My 9 inch south bend is ex US Navy - are they a bunch HSM I wonder?

Millman
07-26-2006, 08:18 AM
{{are they a bunch HSM I wonder?}} Naw...just small sailors.

bob308
07-26-2006, 09:28 AM
lets clear one thing up the s-b drives the carrage off of the key way in the lead screw not the threads. so you are not putting wear on the screw when using it for carrage feeds.

now they are not the best machines but way ahead of the atlas.

alot of people like monarchs well i would not have one of those electrcal nightmares in my shop.another one for the s-b they are easy to fix.they are not and never were hight out put production machines. look at the old adds. they stress tool room general repair.

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 09:32 AM
Mark,,, i actually learned allot about lathes just by reading your post, I think the only answer to your question is a type of nostalgic apeal, I know this is going to ruckle allot of tail feathers but having worked at a motorcycle repair shop for years I also questioned this same mind set when it comes to harleys,,, why in the hell would anybody pay 25,000 for a piece of crap when they can have 10 times the machine and refinement and performance and technology for under half the price, I unlike you really dont care what anybody thinks and in fact have come very close to getting my butt kicked in pubs when a group of harley riders start blabbing about thier bikes and i imediatly shut them down and tell them that my little F1 cbr 600 is sitting outside and even though the engine is half the size it will make any of their bikes look slow, sound like junk, and outhandle them terribly, they are crude pieces of crap and i would not mix cement or roto till my garden with one of those engines (the oil leaks alone would kill all future vegitation) If your going to kick out 25,000 bucks at least get a Ducati desmodramic --- talk about mechanical art, if you want the biggest refinement bang for your buck then you cant go wrong with any of the japaneese, some of the little 600's have redlines over 16,000 rpm now and are very advanced, and yes they make some very refined cruisers too,
the only thing i can figure is nostalic apeal in some way --- if this is the case then all is good but dont ever compare a harley to a real motorcycle in a mechanical sense, maybe its the loud wet fart sound or the way the out of balance twin pleases your girlfriends muff at 3,600 rpm's which in that case if she's getting that much pleasure off your motorcycle you might want to ask yourself a few questions ------------ sorry for the rant, but this is for all the wet fart machines that feel like they have to open the throttle as they go by us cyclist while were riding on the shoulder of the road.... Harleys suck, they always have --- they always will....:cool:

BillH
07-26-2006, 10:18 AM
This is a very simple question. The 9" lathe for the space limited home shop machinist is the ideal size lathe. You are given very few options, the import 9x20 or a used southbend for less money?(mine was 475$) Make more sense now?
Now with that said, people are getting ripped off for the price of parts on these things on ebay.

LarryinLV
07-26-2006, 11:12 AM
Maybe South Bends are a little like Harleys. But, Harley blasphemy cannot go unchallenged... Most Harleys are on the road for 50+ years, and so are S-B's. Most imports are lucky to see 10 years without major repairs or complete collapse. The technology is simple and can be repaired with a little common sense and some basic machine work. They're both reliable as hell, fit you like a good pair of Levi's (not calvin Kliens), and do what they're supposed to do. Neither one is going to win any speed races, but it will get you to the finish line. Oh yea, more people want a Harley or a S-B than want to wear spandex and peddle uphill for hours.

Disclaimers: Yes, I've owned Harley's for over 40 years (I've also got a Raleigh all alloy 10 speed - no spandex). No, they don't leak oil unless you let them - Harley's that is, S-B's do leak oil. No, I don't have any tatoos. Yes, I learned on a S-B. No, I don't have one - But I'd like to have one. Yes I still have a Harley and I think they sound much better than the tinny sound of an import, and a Triumph, and an MG - old one; not the new china import.

soap box mode off

Rustybolt
07-26-2006, 11:17 AM
It's because South Bends were ubiquitous. Every high school shop had them. Every trade school had them. Every college physics lab had them.They were relatively cheap and reliable. They could put up with a lot of abuse at the hands of a student. They fit anywhere. A shop always had room for a small lathe. As a kid I don't remember a garage that didn't have an atlas or a SB.

_Axel_
07-26-2006, 11:43 AM
I have a chinese deburring machine that looks like a lathe, called the Craftsman by one company in th UK, u might have seen the ad in ME or MEW?

What i really want is a Blomqvist lathe, they are improved SB boxfords clones, just heftier. They were made in Sweden.

In my opinion buying a china made machine is a gamble, u could get at good one, but many a lemons!

Evan
07-26-2006, 12:02 PM
I have a chinese deburring machine that looks like a lathe

:D :D :D

I like my SB9. It works very well. It's predictable. It's accurate. It's versatile. It may be easy to fix but I don't know. I don't recall having to fix anything in the last 20 years except replacing the belt.

Mark Hockett
07-26-2006, 12:04 PM
"lets clear one thing up the s-b drives the carrage off of the key way in the lead screw not the threads. so you are not putting wear on the screw when using it for carrage feeds."
Bob308,
Just going by what I know about SB's. My 9" fed from the lead screw with half nuts.

Mark Hockett

Evan
07-26-2006, 12:07 PM
The model C uses the lead screw thread to drive the carriage. The models B and A use a keyway.

DR
07-26-2006, 12:12 PM
My take on S-B's is newbies like them because they aren't intimidating like larger machines.

The intimidation factor comes into play in the moving, space required, operation and general appearance of large machines.

_Axel_
07-26-2006, 01:06 PM
I dont know what movers charge in your part of the world, but here it can be extremly expensive to move a machine. I´ve done so twice, and im glad i dont have a large machine. Mine weight 360kg (170Lbs or so i would guess).

Myford 7lathes must have the best "capability/expense of moving" ratio in the world!

Rustybolt
07-26-2006, 01:52 PM
I moved my SB in the back of my pick up truck.Made a ramp out of lumber and my wife and I slid it into the garage.

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 02:48 PM
Maybe South Bends are a little like Harleys. But, Harley blasphemy cannot go unchallenged... Most Harleys are on the road for 50+ years, and so are S-B's. Most imports are lucky to see 10 years without major repairs or complete collapse. The technology is simple and can be repaired with a little common sense and some basic machine work. They're both reliable as hell, fit you like a good pair of Levi's (not calvin Kliens), and do what they're supposed to do. Neither one is going to win any speed races, but it will get you to the finish line. Oh yea, more people want a Harley or a S-B than want to wear spandex and peddle uphill for hours.

Disclaimers: Yes, I've owned Harley's for over 40 years (I've also got a Raleigh all alloy 10 speed - no spandex). No, they don't leak oil unless you let them - Harley's that is, S-B's do leak oil. No, I don't have any tatoos. Yes, I learned on a S-B. No, I don't have one - But I'd like to have one. Yes I still have a Harley and I think they sound much better than the tinny sound of an import, and a Triumph, and an MG - old one; not the new china import.

soap box mode off


Dont wear spandex either but have to peddal my Mt. bike on the road to get to trails and such,,, I also completely understand the nostalgic apeal in certain items and also didnt want to make the direct comparison between S.B. lathes and harleys because i dont know squat about S.B. lathes,,, This is the difference that i do know between the two, if somebody wants to run there S.B. for 90 years they can do so and have a great time without anybody ever knowing it, harleys on the other hand are nothing but a major source of noise pollution and to hear someone open the throttle plate as they go flatulating by is one thing but to see that the bike really isnt accelerating is another, its a far cry from getting goose bumps as you here someone shift out at 16,000 rpms+ with a much lower decible sound but more the likes of a formula 1 race car... Some of us have refined palates when it comes to the I.C. engine, and as far as live and let live thats fine untill somebody invades your personal space and harleys do just that - at least they do to me.

Your arguement about longevity doesnt make sense to me, for even as little power that a harley produces they still cook their rear cylinder because it hides directly behind the front and its an air cooled engine, believe me the design flaws dont improve the further you look into them,,, Crude and archaic ---- you wont see harleys logging on a quarter million miles without being torn down many times over, yet the honda gold wings are well known for that kind of mileage, but thats what you expect out of a water cooled horizontally opposed four or six banger.


And last but not least, Do realize that when you inflict other people with terrible noise there are repercussions, even if all it amounts to is listening to somebody vent --- thanks for the therapy, you may have saved me a little money...

BadDog
07-26-2006, 03:02 PM
My 1500 lb Rockewell cost only $100 to have moved about 15 miles. He picked it up in the sellers shop, dropped it perfectly in place in my shop, I didn't have to touch it at all other than wiring it in. And this guy is a semi-professional with dedicated equipment suitable for moving any mid-sized machines from Bridgeports to lathes as long as they are not too terribly long.

I also felt the SBs had too much of a price premium vs. ability for my money, so I was specifically looking for a Logan or similar when I found my current lathe. In the months I was looking for my "right" lathe, I also looked at several "good" (according to the seller) SBs that seemed reasonably priced. Without exception, they were completely worn out. Of course the sellers were still quite exuberant in describing the virtues of the SB as being the “ultimate lathe” and “a worn out SB is still better than <take your pick>”. There were also several at what I considered extreme the high end of my interest level that I looked at, thinking at that price they should be pretty nice, but I think "usable" might be the most generous comment I could make, certainly not worth the price compared to similar or (arguably) superior competitors available for considerably less.

topct
07-26-2006, 04:18 PM
"Please help me understand the fascination with SB"

Can't do that.

Maybe its because they just work?

From the smallest, to the biggest, they did the job. And still do.

And so do others. Many others.

Have you had a bad experience with an SB?

77ironhead
07-26-2006, 04:29 PM
funny the thread was about south bend lathes, and outta nowhere comes the big rant against Harleys.... has no bearing or connection to the subject at hand, and is full of sh*t besides.... I too have worked for many years at bike shops, and have worked on every make imagineable, Harley PHD cert., Yamaha 5-star cert, and I just LOVE hearing the 25,000 tag thrown around seeing as it applies to ONE model of Harley....the biggest, most loaded model they have. meanwhile you can buy the same basic model of that harley for 14,000....in contrast to the gold stink- ONE model to choose from, the big ugly barge with all the bells-n-whistles, no choice if ya want a basic just go ride it machine. Lets compare apples and oranges shall we? your little 600 buzzbox against a full-dress touring rig? HAHAHAHA!!!....I have a better one for ya..lets compare apples and apples....new battery for my Harley $60..new battery for my wife's R1 $110....new rear tire for my Harley (incidentlly the same rear tire that fits nearly EVERY Big Twin model harley sells) $120 and an hour of labor (or do it at home yourself if you're so inclined), good for 10,000 miles...new rear tire for a gold stink $150+ and 4 hours labor to install (try it at home? HAHAHAHA!!), fits gold stink exclusively, mileage approx 10,000...new tire for my wife's R1, $200+, hour of labor, good for 3500 miles....the list goes on....(and we won't even get into resale pricing)....that ducati you're so enamoured with? WAY more maintenance intensive than a harley (unless ya wanna compare it w/ some 30 yo harley like which would fit the rest of your stereotype), and parts? pick which arm and leg ya wanna trade.....oh, yeah....how much for the chain and sprockets you need to replace on your little honda every 10,000 miles (or less if you actually RIDE the thing like it's built to be ridden)...hmmm the belt on my harley good for 50,000 miles, pulleys re-useable.....check your facts before ya just start with the stereotyping there, fella

LarryinLV
07-26-2006, 04:32 PM
A.K.
You misunderstand me. And I suspect that we are now running a thread within a thread - bad manners.

I was merely pointing out the similarities and followers, and the longivity of S-B's and Harleys. I love all things mechanical. I love Harleys because they symbolize the American perseverance and achievement beyond technology to something that cannot be described. The V-Twin, despite all its faults, is a design and image all other manufactures try to emulate. The South Bend Lathe is another design and marketing concept others aspire to. Even the 6x Atlas and Craftsman lathes of the 40's have emulated and incorporated the successful designs of the small, underpowered S-B. South Bend is a marketing success...So is Harley, and people still desire them.

By the way, I don't like loud pipes; I don't understand why biker wannabees cut theirs or put drags on just to make them loud. But my bigger gripe is the rice burner bikes (can we say that here?) spinning donuts in the street and stirring up dust in the desert, popping wheelies in traffic and weaving in out putting their life and mine in danger, and those frequently have higher ringing db's than a Harley. Bad apples in every endeaver tend to stereo-type everyone.

I also like the high revving offy's and others, but I wouldn't compare Indy to NASCAR. I don't compare S-B's to Hardinge, I don't compare a Harley to a Goldwing. They're all successful in their arena.

I help my nephew tune and set up his porsche for road racing because, although my hot-rodding days are over, time in the shop is still enjoyable to me. I still have a blown '57 Chevy p/u that just collects dust, a '95 Mustang - last of the roller cam 302's, but my main ride is a Mercedes SLK because SWMBO thinks it goes better with my thinning, mostly grey hair, and she's frightened for me when I ride the Harley.

Maybe we should start a therapy page for the forum.

CCWKen
07-26-2006, 05:52 PM
... And I suspect that we are now running a thread within a thread - bad manners.

Ditto. You both are.

The fascination is simply the technical level and availability of the machine. Old machines fascinate everyone. The fact that they can still be made to work with hands on involvement is the basic need in any hobby. I doubt many modern machine shops will go out looking for an old SB unless they have a specific purpose for the machine. They have become a hobby machine. Fewer home shop guys will go out and buy a new CNC machine to build their steam engine.

Like any other hobby, one name keeps rising to the top of a given group. Within that group, there's no better machine. Fanaticism is the heart of all clubs and associations. Harley, Gold Wing, Deuce Coupe, Muscle Car, Model T, Model A, South Bend, Atlas, 9x20, 7x10 are just a few of the groups. Personally, I'm glad this group is diverse and leans toward the machining and not the machine. If you're looking for a cure, I doubt the drug will be a very good seller. ;)

sasquatch
07-26-2006, 06:37 PM
Possibly for some ,, growing up reading Pop Mechanics ads for S. B., the ads were a sort of "wish" book!:D

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 06:58 PM
Only useing the gold stink for longevity comparison, they are boat anchors but so are the full dresser harleys, iv worked on every bike from every country around the globe but thats been a decade ago, harleys were the bottom feeders and all of us shop techs would try to dump them on to the next guy,,, your tires are dirt cheap because they dont have to use the same quality compounds,,, all motorcycles go through rating tests on performance standards, these are stringent testing grounds due to brakeing, speed and the lean angles of a motorcycle, Tires have to be matched accordingly, anotherwords you wont see a crap harley tire for a CBR 959 because it would be illegal for them to sell a bike like that with a tire like that in the first place due to inadequate speed rating, poor compound and not enough lean angle on the tire due to a pig like a harley not getting that far into a turn to begin with, yet that tire is right at home on a harley because the bike is so limited with power, handeling and speed, and that my friend speaks volumes to somebody who actually knows motorcycles a little ---fella......

As far as the duke, you simply dont understand the joy of doing a valve adjustment on a desmodramic cylinder head, think of the bennies while your doing it, No horsepower robbing valve springs to compress, unlimited valve train RPM means you will never "float" a valve at high revs ever again,,, what do you do with a valve that is guaranteed to return to its seat in time for the next stroke to take place? You open it further than you would ever dare when using conventional methods,,, lets see here --- we saved power by not having to use valve springs in the first place --- and were making more by opening the valve further,, can you say WIN-WIN situation,,, this just in,,, duke is coming out with a four banger desmo,,, there was no other twin on the planet (normally aspirated) that produced more ponies than the duke twin,,, things are about to get real interesting for the japaneese when all the sudden a desmo is utilized on a high reving four cylinder, now ducati can take full advantage of the desmodramic valve train,,,,,, the point im making is they are well worth the extra maintenance....

If you want maintenance free git yerself a massie fergusen fella, i hear they even sound better then them thar harleys -- and them thar international harvesters sound pretty good with an open header too,,,,,, anyways,,, have fun riding your tractor............
No offence but the fact that you actually worked on a few other bikes and like a harley also speaks volumes to me...

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 07:04 PM
Oh yeah one more thing, any of the top performance japaneese machines would strip the teeth right off of your wimpy little harley belt, thats why they have to use a chain,,, performance has a price, those belts sure work good on electric motors though...

bob308
07-26-2006, 07:11 PM
boomer the more you talk about harleys. the less you know.

ASparky
07-26-2006, 07:19 PM
The usual winners in the "most popular" category come not from good features but lack of show-stopper bad features. Your list gave no problems that stop the SB from being used in the HSM environment, just things that could be improved.

The SB is fairly movable, can fit in a fairly small workshop, easy to find parts for, fairly easy to self repair, and can be made accurate "enough", and can take big enough work (though machine slowly on big work) and costs not to much.

The more modern ones and many of the older ones while better in many ways often have a problem in at least one of the above departments - problems that can not easily be "got around" in the HSM environment.

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 07:22 PM
Choose any production HD you want with a specific cube engine, give me just 2/3rds the cubes (or CC's as i like to call em) and give me jap and i will give you the the specs back for a severe spanking,,, sit down Bob... now take a deep breath.... Bob are you there? Bob? better git er tunned up --- that corn will need harvesting soon! you know i luv ya...:D

77ironhead
07-26-2006, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=A.K. Boomer]motorcycle repair shop for years
oh, really, an independant or a dealership?
why in the hell would anybody pay 25,000 for a piece of crap when they can have 10 times the machine
not gonna answer why only the highest priced harley on the floor and not one of the waaaaay more common models?
performance and technology for under half the price
hmmm, what about the FLH self-centering front end that WAY outperforms the gold wing's outdated style? anyone wonder how exactky it is that HD can keep all that weight on the front fork and not bolt it to the frame like a gold wing or a car?
little F1 cbr 600
try stepping up to something made during the current milleniumtalk about mechanical art
so, me working on my harley is outdated but it's ok to do it on a duc? nice double standard
if you want the biggest refinement bang for your buck then you cant go wrong with any of the japaneese, some of the little 600's have redlines over 16,000 rpm now and are very advanced,
like the aprilia that gets totalled if it falls over because the aluminum frame is so thin it crumples when it hits something?
and yes they make some very refined cruisers too
refined like the szuki intruder that drags it's tailpipes every time you lean thru a turn and has the battery loaded in thru the BOTTOM of the bike right where all the nice road splash can soak it?
sorry for the rant, but this is for all the wet fart machines that feel like they have to open the throttle as they go by us cyclist while were riding on the shoulder of the road...
or possibly when a group of them are riding right up the middle of the road and won't get out of the way so folks that have places to be can pass?
only using the gold wing for longevity comparison
funny, you threw in all kinds of references to technology, performance, etc
but thats been a decade ago
almost as dated as your prejudiced opinion
all of us shop techs would try and dump them on the next guy
possibly because working on something new and different scared you and you weren't qualified? seems a nice simple low-tech machine would be ideal for a guy working flat-rate and wants to blow out as many billed hours a possible
your tires are dirt cheap because they don't have to use the same quality compound
odd, my old honda magna used IDENTICAL tires to my harley, and the gold wing tires are Identical as well except for size
you wont see a crap harley tire for a CBR 959 because it would be illegal for them to sell
hmmm, I see places all over the net and and in all the leading MC mags advertising colored-compound sportbike tires that are slippery as sh*t and factory seconds and rejects
speaks volumes to somebody who actually knows motorcycles a little

Willy
07-26-2006, 07:40 PM
Oh yeah one more thing, any of the top performance japaneese machines would strip the teeth right off of your wimpy little harley belt, thats why they have to use a chain,,, performance has a price, those belts sure work good on electric motors though...

You know A.K., over the years I,ve owned English,Japanese.and American iron and ya know what....I loved them all,for reasons you probably won't undersand.Although I have a great respect for the technological advances that the Japanese bikes have,personaly I don't need to go 187 mph.Thats not to say that I would critize someone who does....different strokes for different folks.My 30 year old Harley is still good enough for 130 mph, plenty fast enough for me but maybe not you.And this might come as a shock to you, but I still can find any new part that I might need for the old girl.Yes there are at least three or four Japanese motorcycles that I would love to have in addition to the Harley,but as your less than tolerent veiwpoint has already shown you wouldn't know about that.Get you head out of your anus long enough and you'll see a little more clearly.

wierdscience
07-26-2006, 07:50 PM
I can't see spending $20k on a new SB or for that matter $9-12k on a rebuild either,just isn't worth it.For that kinda money you can pickup a good Monarch 10ee which even if it needs some TLC is still a better machine hands down.

In my eyes it's still a conehead lathe which means no more than $500 if it's in good shape.The more modern SB lathes with the underdrives and camlock or Lxx spindles would be worth more of course.

SB would probibly had better business longevity if they had only updated the headstocks.V-belt drives and either ball or roller bearings to allow at least a 3,000 rpm spindle.Drilling a 1/16 hole at 400 rpm is a PITA no matter how to look at it.

I wouldn't mind having one,but here even if the machine is a rust bucket it will bring $800 or $1,000 at auction.

77ironhead
07-26-2006, 07:59 PM
but I hit the wrong button....

just a couple more questions....
actually knows motorcycles a little
VERY little, you never did say what your qualifications were
we saved power...
hmmm, you and your little f1 were right there in the duc factory 30 or 40 or was it 50 or 60 YEARS ago when duc intro'd the desmo valvetrain?
any of the top performance jap machines....that's why they have to use a chain....
more of that 'little' motorcycle knowledge? refer to the previous post about the new (at least to your 10 year old exp.) goldwing....shaft, not chain, Yam VMax, ditto, 1st gen Magna, ditto.....man, I could go on for days, this is great...

wierdscience
07-26-2006, 08:13 PM
Since we are now on the subject of crotch rockets I'll throw in too.

Here they have become a PITA and a danger to public safty people are getting p***** because 50% of the "pink plastic" crowd feels as though the road belongs to them and 180mph+ is fine in a school zone.

Well it might be getting rough for all bike owners because of those idiots. There is a bill getting up steam to inact the first ever CC displacement fine for speeding.As the bill stands 30 mph over the posted speed limit will cost $3 per CC of displacement.That means doing 70 in a 35 will cost a 600cc bike owner $1800,that should get the're attention.In addition impound laws as they affect automobiles and trucks will be made applicable.40mph over the speed limit will result in impound,towing costs etc.

The bill only needs 50,000 signatures to get on the ballot in 08',last I heard it's half way there.

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 08:30 PM
I really think i was looking for this kick today, thanks fella's,,, two wrongs dont make a right,,, i have and always will have a low tolerance for the open header Hd's and have had a variety of incidence on the road including two that were coming the opposite direction and went all the way out of there lane onto my side and even into the little strip that us cyclist use to ride in between the shoulder and the dirt, i had to put it in the dirt to keep from being hit... my thinking today was that if they also feel like they can use that loud of pipes and infringe on other peoples space then so can i with whatever comments i want, but this is wrong and it doesnt make the universe a better place if we just keep handing off crap to each other, I dont like em --- I never will, but i understand if someone was beating on my little baby i would defend her, to me its the noise, and then i ask myself well, is it because of the outrages performance and the answer is no, so its like listening to my niehbor moe his lawn with a 5 horse briggs and no muffler, its very annoying, and i really think that the whole deal with most harleys has to be "look at me --- im loud" and if thats all they have to offer than good god what the hell --- like i say to each his own but when his own becomes your problem then somebody has crossed the line no?

Dear god iv hijacked another thread,,,,,,,, so to keep this on the up and up were are south bends made,,, is it indiana?:rolleyes:

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 08:35 PM
Since we are now on the subject of crotch rockets I'll throw in too.

Here they have become a PITA and a danger to public safty people are getting p***** because 50% of the "pink plastic" crowd feels as though the road belongs to them and 180mph+ is fine in a school zone.

Well it might be getting rough for all bike owners because of those idiots. There is a bill getting up steam to inact the first ever CC displacement fine for speeding.As the bill stands 30 mph over the posted speed limit will cost $3 per CC of displacement.That means doing 70 in a 35 will cost a 600cc bike owner $1800,that should get the're attention.In addition impound laws as they affect automobiles and trucks will be made applicable.40mph over the speed limit will result in impound,towing costs etc.

The bill only needs 50,000 signatures to get on the ballot in 08',last I heard it's half way there.


dude dont stress, you wouldnt believe the kind of ponies you can pull out of a 50cc moped nowadays, there is always a solution...

Evan
07-26-2006, 08:50 PM
you wouldnt believe the kind of ponies you can pull out of a 50cc moped nowadays

Nothing new about that either. I don't recall the top speed of the 50cc Honda factory racers in the sixties but I vaguely remember over 100 mph.

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 09:00 PM
but I hit the wrong button....



just a couple more questions....
actually knows motorcycles a little
VERY little, you never did say what your qualifications were
we saved power...
hmmm, you and your little f1 were right there in the duc factory 30 or 40 or was it 50 or 60 YEARS ago when duc intro'd the desmo valvetrain?
any of the top performance jap machines....that's why they have to use a chain....
more of that 'little' motorcycle knowledge? refer to the previous post about the new (at least to your 10 year old exp.) goldwing....shaft, not chain, Yam VMax, ditto, 1st gen Magna, ditto.....man, I could go on for days, this is great...



Ironhead (good name) qualifications,michigan certified in everything auto at the age of 17, honda tech school and certified at 18 who cares -- that stuff doesnt mean squat,
dukes comparison was the pains of machining and engineering that a comitted company will go through to get exceptional results --- so sit down


As far as shaft drive and the highest performance motorcycles going you are dead wrong, anytime you change direction of rotation in one form to another you scrubb ponies, ALL the fastest bikes on the planet have one configuration in common, keep your crankshaft rotating at the same direction that your wheel is spinning, nothing is more direct than a chain for getting the rest of the job done, take an in line four and now run a shaft and not only do you have to convert the direction to the shaft from the engine you have to convert it back when you get to the rear wheel , the old bmw boxers at least only scrubbed half the power because the engine didnt have to convert to the shaft, still --- anytime you have to run bevel ring and pinion gears (waste) and of course you want the teeth to be helical (more waste) so you dont have the straight cut gear noise your talking very measurable power waste as compaired to a direct chain...

wierdscience
07-26-2006, 09:06 PM
dude dont stress, you wouldnt believe the kind of ponies you can pull out of a 50cc moped nowadays, there is always a solution...

Mopeds are no problem for 2 reasons-
#1 no one rides them
#2 all you need to to is stick your foot out in front and his day is over:D

No wait,I still need to rant,blood still boiling-

I am sick of retards,sick of plastic motorcycles,ugly "custom" bikes(there are some real"slap your mama"ugly arsed bikes of all makes) chrome,"billet"(that one really p***** me off royal) idiots riding bikes that are dressed like they are either on the way to a gay pride rally or a Village people concert,choppers,straight pipes,holes poked in new asphalt by kickstands,tassles,haybailer chain drives,saddle bags,really,I mean really p*** poor buffed $1.98 chrome jobs,custom sissy bars,OCC,American Chopper,low class loud mouthed no talent idiots(see AC and Occ)people hauling parts in to get"holes moved over"in some queer looking part designed by a chimp and customers who are late pays,but have money to buy every candy store piece of add on crap in existance and fit it on a bike frame.I thought rampant inbred stupidity had maxed out with low riders, alas I was wrong,but as Dave says, no,I'm not bitter:mad:

Whew!That feels better:D

Mcgyver
07-26-2006, 09:55 PM
weird, that was great, i feel so much better now that you got that off my chest!

77ironhead
07-26-2006, 10:45 PM
since we're on the name slinging bandwagon...
ooooh...you were certified auto guy by michigan at 17? wow, you garaduated high school auto shop...I'm impressed, that makes you a real expert on motorcycles...or is it you can parrot off little tidbits and keywords you saw (note I didn't say learn) in a Cameron article in cycleworld...that must be your PHD in MC service....botom line...you're a squid, you're PO'd because some Harleys are louder than you like and it's an irritant...tell ya what a REAL irritant is...some puny squid out on his zoom-splat (like you) riding like a drunken monkey on public roads sans (that means without) helmet, leather jacket, misc other safety gear or common sense riding a full-on race bike thru traffic like he's trying out for a 'star boys' video and damn the poor other people just driving down the road, and, incedentally, making MY life difficult w/ new harsher laws and higher ins. premiums. Wonder why Myrtyle Beach LOVES (Harley) Bike week and DESPISES 'sport bike week' a few weeks later? because of how much worse it is to have to wipe up the smear of some under-qualified, over-powered rice rocket pilots body parts off the pavement than it is to put up w/ a little noise (not to mention the sportbike squids just come in, trash the town and usually don't spend a dime while they're there....
one last thought, before I wander off (I've lost interest in ya, you were mildly entertaining at first, but now kind of boring).....
ever wonder why REAL MC mechanics at REAL MC shops (and no, I don't mean at whatever little shadetree dirt floor shop you may have worked at in the past, no one relly knows because you're too ashamed to say) call sport bikes 'single-service rides'?...because after the squid owning it babies thru the first 500 miles and gets his first service done, the next time we see it it was WADDED UP because the squid thought he could ride....
and BTW, in case you REALLY want to get in a pissing contest or compare notes on knowledge of MC...I'll be more than willing to toss my pedigree out there and we'll see how you match up (or not, more likely)....
Harley Service tech, HD factory Cert, several years exp
Jap service tech, Yamaha factory cert, several more years exp
Fabricator/welder/machinist/mechanic at local drag bike builder building pro-street, supercharged, and nitroused drag bikes, 1 year
Plant manager, local motorcycle MANUFACTURER, and yes, that means 'make' (including but not limited to building the frame from raw DOM tube and steel blanks) not 'assemble' from a kit, in charge of all phases of shop ops, ordering, planning, scheduling, new product development, design and build all shop tooling, jigs, and fixtures, as well as actually building bikes, 2.5 years
and not that I'd really call it exp. exactly and wouldn't put it on my resume, my wife used to run her Yam thunder ace at kayalami WSB track before she got her current R1, and who do you suppose is the only person she trusts to build/modify/maintain her bike? I'm betting it ain't the certified by michigan to change oil and sparkplugs in cars when he was 17 guy....altho, now that I think about it, I seem to recall my friend getting certified by NY state to 'service' cars when he worked @ jiffylube
have a mediocre day
PS....purely as a rhetorical question, if adjusting valves on that artfully well engineered Duc is so damn exciting, why ya running around on a 15 year old honda?

J Tiers
07-26-2006, 11:26 PM
Back on OLD iron....

S-B has a mystique because tehre are a lot of them, so people know the name, and they are a far more "real" machine than an Atlas or Sears lathe.

After GM goes out of business next year, will Chevy be the same way?

S-B is the Chevy of lathes......

Atlas is the Yugo

AA is the Trabant......

A.K. Boomer
07-26-2006, 11:55 PM
Good name calling, so glad your not close by cuz i sure dont want to get any poo thrown on me either!!!!!!!!!!
forgot to add formula V race engines for 7 years,,, but like i say that stuff dont mean squat
Your a simple man ironhead who built a simple bike frame,,, when you heard me make the statement "now we have saved more power" when i was referring to the Duke maybe i said it in an engine building context --- its a habit of mine because iv built my own form of desmo 21 years ago,,, desmos are really nothing new, mercedes has had several and even puegot (sp)? had one way back in 1914,,, ducati has been the most successful by far,
My desmo was actually a port system for a four stroke and it ran on a little GN400 suzuki one banger, it was basically a tube inside of a tube for the intake and the same for exhaust, the center tubes did the feeding and expelling of the gasses and the tubes were sealed off with apex seals that i got from an old mazda rotary engine and dykes piston rings sealed the bores,,, 2 years later i read an artical about two guys from canada that had just completed a rotary head,,, it was spherical but the same basic princible,
www.coatesengine.com
point being is even at the age of 25 I was doing stuff that wouldnt even enter your head as a dream even on your best days,,, I get bored and then i move on,,, You talk about the Aprilla falling over and denting its frame,,, I see your bike standing staight up and its already ruined by design,,, can you say anything original "fella" have you ever come up with anything original "fella" or do you just bust your knuckels on stuff other people have built without getting outside of yourself? Nice generic injection molded pedigree --------------- sit down...

A.K. Boomer
07-27-2006, 12:00 AM
[QUOTE=J Tiers]Back on OLD iron....

S-B has a mystique because tehre are a lot of them, so people know the name, and they are a far more "real" machine than an Atlas or Sears lathe.

After GM goes out of business next year, will Chevy be the same way?

S-B is the Chevy of lathes......

Atlas is the Yugo



Wow --- is atlas really a yugo? i didnt think they were that bad,,, dont you think thats a little harsh? i mean --- a yugo, they dont even seal off their internal C/V joints fer cry's sake...

J Tiers
07-27-2006, 12:08 AM
Naw.....

Un-sealed CVs, pot metal gear brackets, same-same.....

The Dad-in-law just picked up a free Atlas 12" (mebbe Craftsman, same thing....new enough to have timken bearings).... I was SHOCKED to see how light built and flimsy it was. And how much of it was pot metal.

Honestly, it looked like a puffed-up AA / 109.......

He had a piece of the sacrificial leadscrew bracket.... meant to break *when* you crash it.... The thin area of it was maybe .030 thick potmetal.... (Ok, "zamac" an engineered alloy).

All teh handles were pot metal, chromed. Levers pot metal. Other brackets pot metal..... carriage almost the size of a 109........ tiny compound slide.....

Yep, a Yugo.

77ironhead
07-27-2006, 02:02 AM
so before I 'sit down'...let me get this straight....

you start your slander with 'this may ruffle some feathers....'
and you get your panties in a knot when someone (or several someones) call you on it

you purport to be all kinds of knowledgeable bcause you worked in a 'bike shop' for 'years'
yet you still won't quantify what you consider a 'shop' then you back-pedal and start throwing dubious claims of automotive excellence as proof of your all-encompassing knowledge of motorcycles

you have no certification or training in motorcycles
your response: 'that stuff don't mean nothing anyways'
it's always the guy too lazy or unable to get the certs that claims they are useless

you claim to have built your own engine
your proof of this is a link to SOMEONE ELSES....hmmmm

but I'll pretend it's true for a moment...
seems to me you'd be a design engineer at SOMETHING...be it automotive (cause that's what your new-claimed forte is now that you've been called out on MC) or at a big bike maker

how do I know this you ask...maybe because I work in that business, the big players snatch up people who are truly what you CLAIM to be (kind of like my father-in-law being offered a head mechanic position to build motors for formula 1, or a good friend of mine that ports heads for nascar)

you say 'I get bored and move on'
NO-ONE good enough to build a motor at your claimed age 'gets bored and moves on'...they're way too passionate about it...they can't help themselves

you keep spouting off about 'desmo' valve trains like it's the biggest thing since sliced wonder bread...
hate to tell ya this, sport, and burst your little fantasy bubble, but in 1954 when Ducati wanted out of the electric razor and diode business and Fabio Taglioni designed the desmo system for Duc, it was because metallurgy AT THAT TIME wasn't good enough to support high-revving engines. Here we are 52 years later, and that isn't true anymore. the ONLY reason that Duc is still even in business was SEVERAL massive transfusions of cash (and, BTW ownership) by the Italian government and protectionist trade practices that make the Taliban seem downright liberal. one last note on the whole valving issue that you think you'er so knowledgeable on....valving in general is rapidly going to be a thing of the past as most major engine design interests are already working on 'direct air charge injection systems' to go along with the direct fuel injection

have I ever come up with anything origional or ever just bust my knuckles etc yadda yadda....look again at my 'injection molded profile' (whatever that
means)...(see, unlike you, I'm willing to answer direct questions): and I'll reiterate 'cause you seem to bee illiterate as well as having delusions of grandeur...yes, AS A PROFESSIONAL, I designed and scratch built whole motorcycles (motorcycles that people RIDE), and am not counting things I've built in my private life, unlike your nebulous claim to have built a motor 'just like these guys____ only different'. or is that not good enough?...I know...I'll be just like you and throw some irrelevant trivia out there as claim to my MC knowledge....out of the realm of MC....pieces I've made are as we speak floating around on the international space station, high temp stainless parts for inside jet engines on airliners, RR brake components, I could go on for days with this list

I'm done discussing it with you, you aren't worth more than the 20 minutes or so I've already wasted on you so wasting more would be nearly unforgivable

someone else on this thread already posted the cure for the cranialanalitis you suffer from......but let me freshen your memory a bit....'pull your head out of your a**'



truly...have a mediocre day :)

J Tiers
07-27-2006, 08:05 AM
And, this whole D**N rant has {WHAT?} to do with S-B OR the original poster's question?


This thread ain't been hijacked, it has had the Hez b'ulla suicide bombers come and blow it up..... And will no doubt be locked now for agressive nastiness.

Get a life.... If either of you are so D**N good, you already know it, and no tin-horn wanna-be can knock you off your pedestal.

Let it go.....

A.K. Boomer
07-27-2006, 08:14 AM
Dont have time to sit here and list everything iv done fool, its not important, whats important is the discussion (oh yeah -- also a decade of foreign car repair specializing in engine rebuilding of many exotics --- but like i say that stuff dont mean squat) ((boring --- so was running the service department for honda, suzuki and kawasaki)

people would rather read something interesting than somebodys lame arss resum'e (no offence)

some people talk ideas and some people just talk about themselves, example,,, honda's 959 with the computer controlled titainium exhaust system with ceramic mode valve, how amazing that a company would go through these kind of pains to get some more ponies, and yes even though its been over five years ago it still goes to show you who the innovators are, throw in the wildest set of cams you can run and use an exhaust system to create enough backpressure to make the bike behave normal all the way up to 7,500 rpms,,, then the mode valve turns loose the most radical set of cams that these little bikes have ever seen, the result was 150 hp's and it made these honda's run with the other superbikes of slightly larger CC's

these are idea's, and i gaurantee you somebody on the board just learned something,, thats what this place is about -------- anybody who sets new standards is amazing, and for Ducati to still be using its desmo is equaly amazing, what a great concept, a valve train that you can rotate with the flick of a wrist,,, This direct charge injection system that you speak of still needs to get rid of its waste gasses, how are they doing that? are they using a port or a valve or a different operating principle? Its the only half way interesting thing youv come up with but when it comes to the details you brain fart every time...

Lets turn the tables shall we?
You cant talk about harleys can you,,, is that why your so frustrated?,,,, I mean what are you going to bring up,, the way all the levers and crap shake around with 1/2" of slop when their at Idle and sound like their going to stall out about every three revolutions!!! This is good indeed, yes, tell us about Harleys Ironhead!

Nice job on the pieces you built for the space station and such --- my bro's got stuff on the moon and my friend has stuff on the shuttle, im a hack machinist and everybody knows it (say --- you didnt happen to work on any shuttle O-rings awhile back did you? just curious)

Quote;
""how do I know this you ask...maybe because I work in that business, the big players snatch up people who are truly what you CLAIM to be (kind of like my father-in-law being offered a head mechanic position to build motors for formula 1, or a good friend of mine that ports heads for nascar)

you say 'I get bored and move on'
NO-ONE good enough to build a motor at your claimed age 'gets bored and moves on'...they're way too passionate about it...they can't help themselves""

1; no amount of money gets me to work for somebody else

2; after i create and find out im not insane my passion gets imediatly diverted to another project (or sport) that usually has nothing to do with the one i just got done with.

Now,,, tell us about Harley innovations knucklehead...

wierdscience
07-27-2006, 08:17 AM
J,are all Atlas' that bad or is it just a particular model/size? I never had much to do with Atlas so I don't know which models suck or shine please inform.

BillH
07-27-2006, 08:41 AM
I don't care what motorcycle you got or why you like it,they are all the same when that little ol lady pulls out in front of you, it is your body or what is left of it grinding against the pavement. If I hurt myself on my lathe, it is entirely 100% my own fault, wouldn't have it any other way.
All this talk about southbends lately, inspired me to make mine better. I went out and bought a piece of C channel iron to bolt it to, that is my project for today, if Im not feeling lazy I may even take pics of it when it is done.

Al Messer
07-27-2006, 08:59 AM
W'ot's wrong with "Pot metal" or Zermac (sp) when used in the correct application? My Atlas had a lot of "potmetal" parts in non-critical places and I never had any problems with it. Who cranks the knobs or yanks on the handles so hard when operating a lathe that these parts must needs be made of Steel?

andypullen
07-27-2006, 09:51 AM
I'm going to jump in here late. I agree with the original poster....I don't see the fascination with SB lathes either.

I own one that has just sat for 2 years. It's a 14 1/2" X 24" that I bought to help me do some work that I was doing at the time. It was mediocre at best at doing that work....I also own a 10" Clausing and it's been able to do every job I've asked of it. Even work that should have gone into the bigger machine. And, there's no way I would consider getting it rebuilt by South Bend when there are so many gear head Monarchs, LeBlondes, Reed Prentices, Lodge and Shipleys and American Tool Works machines out there. I should have held out for one of those....

I need to find a home for it or it's going to go to the scrapyard. I am trying to get my house ready to sell and it's just so much more "clutter" that needs to go.

Andy Pullen

JCHannum
07-27-2006, 09:59 AM
Atlas lathes were manufactured to perform a certain class of work, and be economical to manufacture. They met these goals very well, and there is nothing to be ashamed of in owning one.

The target application was the small or home shop and light manufacturing. Many of these lathes were pressed into operation during WWII manufacturing small parts, and were available in many configurations to accomplish this.

They made use of Zamac in many areas as it has the properties needed to satisfy those applications. This is evidenced by the fact that so many of those machines are still in operation today after 50 or more years of use. Zamak was used for a couple of reasons, it has impact and tensile strengths much higher than cast iron, and can be molded or cast to finished tolerances, reducing or eliminating the need and added expense of second operation fitting and finishing.

The leadscrew support bearing was designed to breakaway to prevent damage to other components. When these lathes were manufactured, this part was available and economical to replace. The fact that they may not be available today does not make the design inappropriate. They are easily replaced by a shop made weldment. I have made a couple, and seen a few more.

Any machine that is operated outside of its design parameters will fail at some point.

jkilroy
07-27-2006, 10:24 AM
People want Southbends for the same reason they want Harleys and 60's muscle cars. All of them are poorly engineered, poor performing, over-rated steaming piles of dung. But people love them and "have always wanted one" so as soon as they have the cash, bam, they own an overpriced POS.

At least with the old muscle cars or Harleys you can spend an *additional* three times what its worth and actually get the to perform (fairly) well. I don't care what you spend on a southbend, you aren't going to make it perform like a new 10EE. Granted, you are never going to get a 68 Vette to lap with a Z06 around a track, nor are you going to get a Harley to lap a track with a Hyabusa. (More like get lapped, and often)

People just get attached to this old ****, I know, I drive a 68 Mustang fastback. Engineering wise, it is a steaming pile o dung compared to, well, just about anything new. Hot, loud, bad mileage, un-safe in comparison, and I love it! I've ridden Harleys and the afore mentioned "Gold Stink" and I can tell you that if I am going to ride across town to cruise chicks, I'll take the Harley. If I'm going to ride coast to coast, I'll take the Honda thank you very much, and my body appreciates it.

Rustybolt
07-27-2006, 10:25 AM
Andy that's very generous of you. If I didn't live half way across the country I'd take you up on it.

The community college machine shop I visited had newer SB 15 inch lathes that were very rugged and as accurate as could be expected from a machine that is in a school setting.

A.K. Boomer
07-27-2006, 10:34 AM
People want Southbends for the same reason they want Harleys and 60's muscle cars. All of them are poorly engineered, poor performing, over-rated steaming piles of dung. But people love them and "have always wanted one" so as soon as they have the cash, bam, they own an overpriced POS.

At least with the old muscle cars or Harleys you can spend an *additional* three times what its worth and actually get the to perform (fairly) well. I don't care what you spend on a southbend, you aren't going to make it perform like a new 10EE. Granted, you are never going to get a 68 Vette to lap with a Z06 around a track, nor are you going to get a Harley to lap a track with a Hyabusa. (More like get lapped, and often)

People just get attached to this old ****, I know, I drive a 68 Mustang fastback. Engineering wise, it is a steaming pile o dung compared to, well, just about anything new. Hot, loud, bad mileage, un-safe in comparison, and I love it! I've ridden Harleys and the afore mentioned "Gold Stink" and I can tell you that if I am going to ride across town to cruise chicks, I'll take the Harley. If I'm going to ride coast to coast, I'll take the Honda thank you very much, and my body appreciates it.


Well said --- but iv picked up many a babe on my F1:D

LarryinLV
07-27-2006, 10:41 AM
I wouldn't ride a Duck 'cause if something went wrong it might quack up.


I'd pick up a good 9" or 10" South Bend for the nostalgia knowing it has limitations. And I would enjoy using it also knowing it was a leader in putting lathes out there for us HSM's without access to a 10 ton crane or lots of steroids just to lift a chuck into place. Same goes for the Clausing 8520 Mills. Not much good for production but almost perfect or the HSM.

J Tiers
07-27-2006, 01:00 PM
The board ATE my first reply.

Anyhow, short story.... Atlas were made to a lower price point than SB, or Logan, etc.

That is NOT the same thing as "sucking".... although it has a definite impact on how you can use the machine.

To hit that lower price point, die castings of cheaper materials and minimal weight, needing little or no secondary machining, were used wherever they could be. Some of the castings were chromed in an evident attempt to look spiffier.

But, those castings were engineered to the minimum size and weight to do the job that the designers saw as their goal. The goal was a lightweight "hobby" lathe to sell at a low cost.

On top of that, some of the zamac used was evidently a defective alloy that corrodes and breaks far easier than it was supposed to. Lead may have been added.

Where cast iron was used, it was thinned and simplified to cost less.

By contrast, SB-Logan, etc use cast iron and steel, with steel handwheels, thick cast iron brackets, larger steel shafts, etc, etc. More expensive, and a design choice.

Rather than making a "hobby" lathe which could maybe be used in light industry, Logan and SB made a light industrial machine that was not too overpriced for hobby use.
Logan originally sold through Wards as "Power Kraft", at a significantly higher price than the Atlas sold through Sears as "Craftsman". But later, Logan sold under their own name through regular machine channels same as SB, and those machines were changed to be heavier.

Atlas sold under their own name were essentially the same as craftsman, parts interchange.

The result of that is that one cannot "beat on" or push the envelope with an atlas as one can a SB, Logan etc. They won't take it.

And, I, at least, find that Atlas "feels" light. The Logan and SB may "be" light, but they don't "feel" light in the same ways.

That all said, I still think the smaller SB stuff is often far overpriced and over-rated versus the larger scheme of things.

lazlo
07-27-2006, 02:27 PM
This thread gives me a headache trying to separate the Harley flame war from the old lathe discussion :)


The author talks about the hardened bed being able to last a lifetime, but his 1979 vintage lathe needed to have the bed reground and the lathe rebuild. Is a lifetime only 27 years? I have seen many 60’s vintage Leblonds, Monarchs and Clausings that were used in industrial environments that did not need to be rebuilt.

Even with hardened beds, the Leblonds, Monarchs and Clausings will wear out their beds in a production environment. Even the Hardinge HLV-H beds, made from hardened tool-steel, need to be replaced after awhile. In fact, I seem to remember Don looking into the cost of a replacement HLV bed awhile ago.

What I can't figure is what SouthBend would be doing to the lathe for $12,000? The last I heard, SouthBend will regrind the bed for around $800. Figure another $1000 to rebuild the headstock. Where's the other $10,000 going? Fancy paint? Fancy 3-phase motor/VFD upgrade?


Same in the UK with Myford. Factory re-furbs are reasonably priced, but who would pay $9000-$13000 for a new, limited capacity, hobby lathe?

I've never understood the British obsession with the Myford Super 7. From browsing the UK sales pages, they often sell for $3,000 - $4,000, for a hobby lathe with plain bearings and a soft bed?? For that price, you can get a Hardinge in good condition!

BillH
07-27-2006, 03:46 PM
Again, I must say, the 9" southbends are the ones that go for the money because of their size. People buy these lathes for their size and what they can do on them. Sure, I would love an emco lathe in the same size, good luck finding one for cheap or a myford. If your going to go with a 14" lathe, then a small size is probably last on your list of requirements, so who cares?
When I bought my South Bend for 475$, I wanted a small lathe that could hog out metal without chatter(which it does). After I had it, the nostalgia set in but it was never a main reason for buying it. You know, if the Chinese actually produced a 9" lathe, overbuilt, not a scaled up 7" lathe, 9" South Bends would command far less money. I'd probably have the chicom lathe if it was engineered properly.

rantbot
07-27-2006, 03:50 PM
If I might be so crass as to return to the original question ....

The SB thing wasn't originally a "mystique". People know them because for a while they were all over the place. And they were all over the place because they were cheap. Very cheap.

I was once hired to design a mechanism to wind a peculiar type of wire coil, and the department had already bought a SB lathe for the project before I signed on. They bought it to use as a spindle, and that's it. As the department head told me, there was no way that company could make their own spindle for that price. I don't remember the price but it wasn't anything like the $10-12K mentioned on this thread.

But that was close to 30 years ago.

dewat
07-28-2006, 02:04 AM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/dewat/dearGodmakeitstop.jpg

SJorgensen
07-28-2006, 04:13 AM
This has been a great thread. I liked all the posts and even the discord. It seems to me that those who were at the most discordant positions were like some of my best friends that I have. I hated, and yet we fought and they became my best friends. The point is that people who feel strongly about pretty much the same things, have more in common with each other.

Sure you could surround yourself with people who agree with you. That's cool, because you can drink your beer without anyone saying that your bike sucks. That's how the mo-peds and the Harley people do it.

I just threw that in like gasoline on a fire.

Sorry, I need to go upgrade my security system.

I lived in Daytona Beach for 5 years. Bike week is one of several important periods in that town, but life goes on. Bike week is loud and pretty civil and under control. Much more so than all the NASCAR and spring break events. That is my observation. For years they tried to obstruct the bikers but they finally gave in.

One man responded to me the best. I told him that my brother had a Suzuki 1000 and that it was the fastest motorcycle in its class that year. He said "You know those "Jap-bikes" HAVE a LOT of heart. But they HAVEN'T GOT A SOUL."

That was enough for him and I appreciated his opinion. I learned something very important about it from him, and I only talked to that man for about 2 minutes.

On the other hand, I've recently been enlightened by my friends who are antique motorcycle racing enthusiasts. Seriously, I'm talking about a NEW race track in Toole, Utah and it is going to be BIG! The Trials riding show is going to be awesome!

We are talking about the appreciation of South Bend lathes. The thread turned to a similar customer loyal product of Harley Davidson motorcycles.

The difference is partly regarding all of the factors that should be important to us about the machines, and on the other hand it is like the marketing battle that Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola did in the 1970's

I agree with the argument that looks toward excellence in machinery. But on the other side I love my old South Bend lathe. One thing that I am astonished by is how well the spindle works in a cast housing without a bearing or a sleeve!

There are lots of reasons to enjoy, and become attached to a machine. I wouldn't be ashamed of any of them. One of my friends has the Monarch 10 and he gave a Rivet to his friend. They are both great lathes but I don't like the electronics and tubes in the Monarch. The Rivet is slightly nicer and is a great machine. In any regard, it is more sensible to place value on a machine, than it is in a diamond ring.

Hey, don't stop arguing on my account. You guys have more in common than anyone on any other boards

Serenity has too high a price.

Spence

Willy
07-28-2006, 05:50 AM
Words of wisdom there Spence,....nicely said.
We're never too old to learn.
Have a good one!
Willy

A.K. Boomer
07-28-2006, 09:31 AM
At aprox. 2/3rds the weight, 1/3 more speed, twice the handleing and using the finest materials we have on the planet + something that looks like it should be shot out of a cannon rather than be in your grandpa's barn and did i mention half the price ------------- who in the hell needs a soul...:D

But im with dewat,,, i seen that this morning and it cracked me up! welcome to our world of insanity mate...

bob308
07-28-2006, 09:52 AM
whats up boomer a harley scare your mother before you were born?? this was a simple question about s-b lathes.

why dont you start your own thread bashing harleys then only idoits will have to see it instead of throwing it in on other threads.


j tears is right. i started out with an atlas-craftsman 12" and it did always feel light. then i got a s-b 9" and it does do heavier work then 12 did.

some of it with s-b is they have been around since dirt. their name is known even by people that dont know machining. also the size thing. i see small bench lathes always bring more then the big stuff. even the 8520 nills around here bring almost as much as a full size b-p type mill. i know a guy that gets around 800 to a 1000 for the atlas mills. anything small that can be put in a celler. and yes i think they are over priced even though i like them.

garyphansen
07-28-2006, 11:40 AM
I have owned my 1940 9" Model A South Bend for 27 years. It most likely made parts that helped win WWII! I have used to turn down gun barrels, crown muzzels, install muzzel breaks, make many assorted gun parts that could not be bought off the shelf. I have used it for an unbelieveable assortment of work, encluding turning, drilling, milling, making springs, threading, winding electrical windings, grinding with a tool post grinder,polishing, and indexting. I have even used it to turn wood to make my kitchen table and chairs.

It is 66 years old and still capeable of working to as colse of tollence as any new lathe. Where better lathes made? Sure, but a good South Bend Lathe will do anything a good operator will ask it to. I plan to own it until I die. Who knows, but I would bet it will still be running and making parts in someones basement in 2106. (May be my great grandson"s). Gary P. Hansen

lane
07-28-2006, 11:25 PM
OK HERE GOES. The thing with south bends was their are just so many of them . I had a Atlus yes light duty. Logan very similer to S.B. Sheldon may be better,but Logan and Sheldon are not as common.Monarh EE great so is Hardage But different class of machine. I started with a Atlus moved up to 10k S.B.also own a 13 by 40 Acer tiawaneese built nice machine. Clausin and Rockwells bigger an heavery. Worked on all kinds of lathes over the years .They are all different in some ways But for the money South Bends are hard to beat. You can remake every part your self Nothing harden or heatreated. I know i have done it. Bought a piece of junk one time. AND YES I have owned a few Harley`s But I ride HONDA LANE S>

John Stevenson
07-29-2006, 03:00 AM
I've never understood the British obsession with the Myford Super 7. From browsing the UK sales pages, they often sell for $3,000 - $4,000, for a hobby lathe with plain bearings and a soft bed?? For that price, you can get a Hardinge in good condition!

Historically they filled a niche.
Introduced just after WWII when we were still in a period of great austerity they were affordable, better than anything available at the time in their size and the right size.

At this time taking model loco's as an example and it was a big slice of the model engineers efforts 3-1/2" gauge ruled.
Again because of this austerity. Castings were affordable, bar material was available and boilers were manageable.
Remember no oxy-acetylene, no propane or MAP ?, you were stuck with a big paraffin [ kerosene ] blowlamp.
Moving up to 5" gauge meant machines twice as big, increased material prices and some things like boilers not able to be done, so the 3-1/2" gauge ruled and it could all be done on a Myford.

Myfords of the day weren't slow at coming forward as well with attachments at affordable prices. This was in the days that engineers ruled factories and not bean counters. The result was you had a small machining centre that could handle most jobs thrown at it.

This in turn spawned a series of articles in the very popular model engineering press of the day, remember Model Engineer was affordable and published weekly at that time. We have had this magazine since 1899 and in those days it had a large subscription.

The result was it snowballed and the machine had a cult following, to an extent it still has one today.
Other machines have the same, often not fully deserved reputation, Bridgeport is one, there are far better featured and made machines out there but the name sells the Bridgeport.

Lazo mentions the Hardinge but at the time Myfords were making a name for themselves you couldn't get a Hardinge, you couldn't lift it on your own and it wouldn't fit into a garden shed or the spare bedroom.

At the time it was the right machine, at the right price, marketed to the right people.

You need to ask two questions here.

Would I have bought a Myford in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's ?
and would I buy one today.

.

Elninio
07-29-2006, 03:36 AM
In addition to JCH's comments, there is further warm and fuzziness directed at SB due to

3. The name 'South Bend' rolls off the tongue nicely and sounds 10,000 times better than idiotic names like "Jet", "Grizzly", or "Busy Bee"

:)

you sir are on the money! i almost fell off my chair because i was laughing so hard :D This has got to be my favorite thread so far!


My opinion: I think SBs are so popular because they encorporated a bit of each category (they werent the cheapest, but they were cheaper than monarch, and they werent really beefy but are pretty solid). Sort of how you have canadian tire and walmart today sellign air compressors, i guess lathes were just as popular and needed back in the WW2 days and the SB was a great package overall for the average joe - thus alot of them are sold. And why someone would want to restore a SB to cost that much? Probably for the same reason that someone would restore a T-bucket or other old car that can easily be outperformed by most modern cars (and 50 years from now there will probably be someone restoring a honda civic :D)

SJorgensen
07-29-2006, 04:29 AM
This will be my last post on this thread. One big part of my pride of ownership of my South Bend 9" Model A lathe, is that it is a World War II era lathe. I'm very proud of that, and yet I don't know what might have been made with it. And I am proud of my country's part in defeating the Nazi’s and in defeating the Imperial Japanese expansion especially in light of those inhumane things that they did and especially during their invasion of Manchuria when even Hitler wrote a letter to Japan to condemn the atrocities that they were doing.

Now we have a President of the United States who's own grandfather Prescott Bush was directly involved in the financing and in the providing of petroleum and raw metals and war materials to the Nazi’s. At one point the United States seized the assets of the Bush's under the trading-with-the-enemy act.

I'm glad that the Nazi’s did not have a lot of inexpensive, small, good quality lathes like the South Bend 9".

It was the fantastic manufacturing capability of the United States that allowed us to provide the "Arsenal of Democracy" that won the war. Companies like South Bend and those companies who were given liberal license to produce their designs significantly helped to win the war.

Our manufacturing capability is now under attack and it is being undermined by big players at the G8 and other consortiums. It doesn't bode well. Our car companies and large production line companies are going under every day and nobody pays any attention.

A.K. Boomer
07-29-2006, 05:19 AM
[QUOTE=bob308]whats up boomer a harley scare your mother before you were born?? this was a simple question about s-b lathes.

why dont you start your own thread bashing harleys then only idoits will have to see it instead of throwing it in on other threads.





Dear Bob,,, This original post started off with a fella by the name of Mark Hockett and although it started off with lathes --- in the middle of his original post he made this comparison,,, and I quote;

"that reminds me of the people who base a home purchase on how well they can entertain friends at the house"

so for one bob,,, im not that out of line in making another comparison many posts later esp. concidering any given topic on this forum takes on a different meaning by the end of its term...
And if you look at the context of half of this debate its quite obvious that its sparked not only some interest but also a conversion between many of subject matters that are relevant to this discussion I.E. --- old crap VS. refined tech.


Nuther thing bob,,, dont bring my mother into this, or next time i'll bring up yours and its going to get ugly

And dude, if you dont like it, dont read it, and if you read it and you respond to it your calling yourself an idiot, but thats not my words thier actually yours according to your last post...
and last but not least --- let me know the next time you need a spankin K?
Logic Rules, hey, whatever happend to knuckle head and his harley innovations? hmm, sure would be nice to hear from him...

ohh -- have a nice day,

talk later A.K.

John Stevenson
07-29-2006, 06:47 AM
Endless political dirge and crap section dumped.......

It was the fantastic manufacturing capability of the United States that allowed us to provide the "Arsenal of Democracy" that won the war. Companies like South Bend and those companies who were given liberal license to produce their designs significantly helped to win the war.

Our manufacturing capability is now under attack and it is being undermined by big players at the G8 and other consortiums. It doesn't bode well. Our car companies and large production line companies are going under every day and nobody pays any attention.

Read my post #2 on this.
SB only had themselves to blame, just like Myfords now, with their here's what we make, we don't care what you want attitude.

Boxford's took the SB lathe and with a program of continual improvement gave the users what they wanted and are still in business.

.

IOWOLF
07-29-2006, 06:54 AM
Why do we have to Bash anything?Harleys ,Atlas,SB,Rice burners, Rice eaters,each other? :D
Can't we all just get along?

bob308
07-29-2006, 09:34 AM
he asked why people liked them. he did not ask for a rant about harleys.but that is the only way you jap riders can talk is right away jump up and say harleys are junk.

ask a harley rider what he thinks he will say i dont like them or i will not own one. and move on. on a harley it is the ride the trip there. not how fast you get there. the riding style is all different. on a harley you set up like a cowboy on a horse. on a jap itm is bent over with your but in the air like a fag.

wierdscience
07-29-2006, 09:50 AM
Why do we have to Bash anything?Harleys ,Atlas,SB,Rice burners, Rice eaters,each other? :D
Can't we all just get along?

Not me,I'm starting a new cable show,"Orange County Southbends".Yup,a show devoted to tricked out Southbend lathes covered in chrome, billet aluminum and pervert paint.
I figure I can make a mint building "custom"lathes for those with disposable incomes.$80,000 will get you a tricked out 1939 Southbend model C,with straight pipes and chromed re-bar front forks,saddle bags,lime green pearl paint and straight pipes.
To also satisfy the needs of the rice rocket crowd I'll replace the original 1/2hp electric motor with a 1000cc sextuple cam,slidevalve,inverted overshot 14 cylinder opposed engine and couple it directly to the lathe via a manure spreader chain.
Of course since this will be a "retro" machine it will also harken back to an earlier time when low riders ruled the earth and the lathe will include a 12,000watt sound system.
Of course the lathe won't do what it was originally designed for,but you'll have one and your nieghbor won't,that's what it's all about right?

Millman
07-29-2006, 10:03 AM
Agreed, if I had the money, I would buy up everything SB, repaint it and make Megabucks selling parts on Ebay. Prices are ridiculous.

lazlo
07-29-2006, 11:08 AM
One big part of my pride of ownership of my South Bend 9" Model A lathe, is that it is a World War II era lathe. I'm very proud of that, and yet I don't know what might have been made with it. And I am proud of my country's part in defeating the Nazi’s

So I guess you won't be buying a Deckel ;)

Millman
07-29-2006, 11:19 AM
I'll stick with post #3.

JRouche
07-29-2006, 12:54 PM
"Please help me understand the fascination with SB lathes."

Simplicity. Fix-ability. Cost. Mobility. Ergonomics. Durability. Adaptable. Appearance. Dependable. Accuracy.

Theses are just some of the attractions (not in any order) I have for my SB 10L. JRouche

Chester
07-29-2006, 01:11 PM
In addition to JCH's comments, there is further warm and fuzziness directed at SB due to


3. The name 'South Bend' rolls off the tongue nicely and sounds 10,000 times better than idiotic names like "Jet", "Grizzly", or "Busy Bee"

:)


Hey Don you missed my favorite, and it is right in your back yard......

http://www.pigglywiggly.com/

And yes I am another of those SB HSM ers. Got two from a school shop for $100 and they do everything I'll probably ever need to do in my shop. Familiarity and availability are the prominent reasons, I think, that makes them still so popular. They were in my school shops too.

A.K. Boomer
07-29-2006, 03:18 PM
he asked why people liked them. he did not ask for a rant about harleys.but that is the only way you jap riders can talk is right away jump up and say harleys are junk.

ask a harley rider what he thinks he will say i dont like them or i will not own one. and move on. on a harley it is the ride the trip there. not how fast you get there. the riding style is all different. on a harley you set up like a cowboy on a horse. on a jap itm is bent over with your but in the air like a fag.



Set up like a cowboy on a horse!,,, nice one Bob,,, lets see, sit back with your legs spread out and your feet up in "stirrups" ------ kinda reminds you of your last visit to the gynecologist huh Bob,,, Have a nice day...

Peter N
07-29-2006, 03:34 PM
Boomer, despite my (surprising) agreement with some of your views on bikes, I'd urge you to quit while you're ahead.

This little spat is just alienating a lot of people on both sides, and you may just need some help from one of them some day.

On Topic - what JS said about the Myford is right. Great machine when it was launched and still capable and user friendly today, but outpriced and outclassed in todays marketplace. When I eventually move house and get a larger workshop I think I would like to get a larger and more capable lathe, but in addition to the Myford instead of a replacement.

Peter

A.K. Boomer
07-29-2006, 04:06 PM
Boomer, despite my (surprising) agreement with some of your views on bikes, I'd urge you to quit while you're ahead.

This little spat is just alienating a lot of people on both sides, and you may just need some help from one of them some day.

On Topic - what JS said about the Myford is right. Great machine when it was launched and still capable and user friendly today, but outpriced and outclassed in todays marketplace. When I eventually move house and get a larger workshop I think I would like to get a larger and more capable lathe, but in addition to the Myford instead of a replacement.

Peter

You got it Mr. Neil --- its been fun,,, and thanks for asking nice, (dang -- you really know how to defuse a situation:) )

IOWOLF
07-29-2006, 04:51 PM
So now will you bow out gracefully?

rantbot
07-29-2006, 06:48 PM
Even the Hardinge HLV-H beds, made from hardened tool-steel, need to be replaced after awhile.

Tool steel for a lathe bed? You really think anyone at Hardinge was dumb enough to choose such an inapproriate material? Lathes don't have cast iron beds just because cast iron is cheap. Its most useful property in machine tool applications (along with inherent lubricity, long-term dimensional stability, etc) is its internal damping - far better than steel. (Not dampening - to dampen means to get wet). A lathe made of tool steel would ring like a tuning fork. That means anything made on it would have those interesting ripple patterns all over.

Mcruff
07-29-2006, 08:45 PM
Harig grinders have been available for years with hardened tool steel ways. It works well, I prefer the chromed ways but the tool steel ways are good and easier to break in.

Millman
07-30-2006, 03:47 AM
{{This little spat is just alienating a lot of people on both sides, }} Peter, usually I agree with you, except on this point. The only people this would alienate, are self-conscious, afraid of their own shadow types that aren't comfortable in a non-comforted world. Grow the **** up, people. The Mamby Pamby bleeding hearts are the ones to blame for this world. So...if I alienate anyone by any of my remarks or opinions, and I have a bunch; eat my ass and like it...or just don't read it and quit whining. I did not join this forum to be put on some GAY BUDDY LIST.

John Stevenson
07-30-2006, 06:05 AM
The Mamby Pamby bleeding hearts are the ones to blame for this world. So...if I alienate anyone by any of my remarks or opinions, and I have a bunch; eat my ass and like it...or just don't read it and quit whining. I did not join this forum to be put on some GAY BUDDY LIST.

Give us a kiss Millman :D


.

BillH
07-30-2006, 08:29 AM
LOL, and I thought gun owners were a divided group.

Peter N
07-30-2006, 08:52 AM
Does this mean we can't be seen holding hands any more? :D

Peter

Spin Doctor
07-30-2006, 10:06 AM
Back to the original question. As mentioned a lot of people their first experience with a lathe was a SB. Plus I think there are other factoers involced. The tyro HSM just starting out wants a SB because it looks like a lathe should look and to be truthful it's probably the lathe brand they could name off hand. But personally I find them poorly designed and cumbersome to run. But that is just my opinion. I don't like Monarchs either as the controls are backward from what I am used to. Also to me it is kind of like the Hot Rod people who have an anuerism every time they see a non Ford hot rod. They forget that the main reason the original hot rodders used Fords is because they were dirt cheap.

PS I don't like Fords either

thistle
07-30-2006, 10:31 AM
I am glad that we are all out of punching distance, this could be quite a brawl if we were all in the same pub with a few pints in.

so who would win the punch up?
The SB crowd ? the Harley crowd?
what the hell would i do, as I like my SB 9 lathe and I have a gearhead 15 x50 lathe ,and like other bikes ,but have a name that is reminicsent of that
malingned 2 cylinder bike........
I guess i will have to kick everyone in the bollocks to be fair .....

seriously - its just a tool- I like the SB ,its alright, it does what its told, doesnt break down much,when it does i can fix it
.its been going since 1943-
pretty good innings so far.can complain about that.

LarryinLV
07-30-2006, 10:46 AM
I think you can build a Ford or a Harley with a South Bend lathe. and some sheet metal


Damn, damn, damn, I told myself I was not going to get sucked into this thread

lazlo
07-30-2006, 11:16 AM
Tool steel for a lathe bed? You really think anyone at Hardinge was dumb enough to choose such an inapproriate material?

Yes, Hardinge was "dumb" enough to use hardened and precision ground steel bed ways on possibly the finest toolroom lathe ever made. So was the Moore Tool Company, who used harded tool steel v-ways on their jig boores and universal measuring machines.

Many of the LeBlonde lathes have hardened steel way inserts.

thistle
07-30-2006, 11:20 AM
from lathes.co.uk

http://www.lathes.co.uk/hardinge/index.html

"The removable bedway of the HLV-H is made from hardened and ground steel and the saddle fitted with Teflon bearing surfaces."

lazlo
07-30-2006, 11:20 AM
Historically they filled a niche.
Introduced just after WWII when we were still in a period of great austerity.
[snip]

Jon,

Many thanks for the eloquent history of the Myford! It also explains the materiel selection in a lot of the post-war MEW articles.

Cheers,

Robert

bob308
07-30-2006, 11:33 AM
last post

if you read back boomer came on with a rant about harleys and the people that ride them. now if you look close you will see that i never said anything bad about jap. bikes or the people that ride them in general. that is their choice. and i expect the same courtsey.

way back when i first started riding i had 750 notorn atlas. great bike liked it rode everywhere. it did not leak oil either. then i got a 500 triumph daytona. it had some problems because of the guy that thought he could work on them. i got it right and again no oil leaks. next was a sportster that was a mistake for what i spent to get it close to right i could have bought a new one. traded it on a new 85 fxrs. no problems with it what so ever. bought a new 2000 fxs. 30,000 later still no problems or oil leaks with that one. unless you call oil changes and tires a design flaw.

wierdscience
07-30-2006, 12:02 PM
Back to the original question. As mentioned a lot of people their first experience with a lathe was a SB. Plus I think there are other factoers involced. The tyro HSM just starting out wants a SB because it looks like a lathe should look and to be truthful it's probably the lathe brand they could name off hand. But personally I find them poorly designed and cumbersome to run. But that is just my opinion. I don't like Monarchs either as the controls are backward from what I am used to. Also to me it is kind of like the Hot Rod people who have an anuerism every time they see a non Ford hot rod. They forget that the main reason the original hot rodders used Fords is because they were dirt cheap.

PS I don't like Fords either

Fords were plentiful and a little thing called the flathead v-8 could be put in any of them causing embarassment to many a Chevy fan,thats why Fords where used.

Elninio
07-30-2006, 05:08 PM
hey weirdscience, how about Monster SB garage, we could make lawn cutting and pasta makeing SBs :D

wierdscience
07-30-2006, 05:41 PM
hey weirdscience, how about Monster SB garage, we could make lawn cutting and pasta makeing SBs :D

Already on it,Southbend Vega-matic,it slices,dices,chops shreds and julians!

Need to grate parmason cheeze?No problem,just use the handy backgear!

Act fast,supplies are limited!:D

BillH
07-30-2006, 06:38 PM
This mocking of the south bend lathe, for shame! You talk like it is a chinese bench lathe!
If this was OC Lathes, they would be hot rodding grizzly 9x20's and sieg mini lathes. Metal lathes are a sacred tool.

I'm going to sell a grizzly 9x20 with candy apple red glowin the dark paint job with purple splash and tack weld fake looking missiles all over it and other useless emblems and wire up neon led lights on the carriage and hand wheels. Will film my dad yelling at me about a deadline that doesnt exist and to clean up the mess im making in his workshop, will sell it with autograph for 90,000$, anyone want it?

A.K. Boomer
07-30-2006, 06:50 PM
WS do you really think you could get one to "julian" (what the hell is julian anyways?)

I think you should have Bot wars with different lathes, yeah ---Tool em up and put em on wheels,,, from what iv learned about the Heavy old SB's I think theyd fare pretty well,,, :rolleyes:

oneprimate
07-30-2006, 07:17 PM
I have used a SB, and hated it. It was too limited in power, and making a part with it was an all day affair, just to face the ends and turn a rod down to .625 from .750, with a lot of tolerance required by the lathe. The place I work now, I spend most of my time on a Monarch Tracer lathe. The tracer equipment is gone, and so are the ways. It was built in January 1963 for Pratt and Whitney. I was born the same month, and I'm just glad that I am in better shap than the lathe. The only reason the company keeps it is I can coax parts out of it that the smaller lathe can't handle (the Monarch has a 28 in swing). I keep aksing them to replace the small one with a new lathe (it is not far behind the Monarch) and keep the monarch for use only on the large spinning tool dies that I'm making.

I also don't understand the , to put it mildly, extreem love some have for the SB. I would rather use a new shina machine that will not bog down and slip the belt with a .010 cut on aluminum.

Rex Winfrey

BillH
07-30-2006, 09:30 PM
I also don't understand the , to put it mildly, extreem love some have for the SB. I would rather use a new shina machine that will not bog down and slip the belt with a .010 cut on aluminum.

Rex Winfrey
Sounds like you dont know how to use the southbend, I can hog 1/4" of steel in a pass on mine and the belt is ratty as hell.

A.K. Boomer
07-30-2006, 10:11 PM
Uuuuum,,, not to interupt but whats "julian" mean,,, thanks...

J Tiers
07-30-2006, 10:13 PM
Or possibly the belt needed cleaned..... must have been oily.

S-B, similar Logan, with a decent grind on the tool should take off a D.O.C of at least 1/8 (.250 reduction). I have done 3/16 D.O.C. before.

But you can't have oil on the flat belt.....

wierdscience
07-30-2006, 11:01 PM
This mocking of the south bend lathe, for shame! You talk like it is a chinese bench lathe!
If this was OC Lathes, they would be hot rodding grizzly 9x20's and sieg mini lathes. Metal lathes are a sacred tool.

I'm going to sell a grizzly 9x20 with candy apple red glowin the dark paint job with purple splash and tack weld fake looking missiles all over it and other useless emblems and wire up neon led lights on the carriage and hand wheels. Will film my dad yelling at me about a deadline that doesnt exist and to clean up the mess im making in his workshop, will sell it with autograph for 90,000$, anyone want it?

Bill,I'm not mocking SB,just some of the people who own them.There is an opinion out there that they are the last word in lathes.This is mainly from people who have never heard of anything else.

And I also have a SB book here that claims 1/4doc in 4" od steel,it is possible I suppose in backgear with a really ridgid setup and the right grind.

BillH
07-30-2006, 11:52 PM
Bill,I'm not mocking SB,just some of the people who own them.There is an opinion out there that they are the last word in lathes.This is mainly from people who have never heard of anything else.

And I also have a SB book here that claims 1/4doc in 4" od steel,it is possible I suppose in backgear with a really ridgid setup and the right grind.

I was referring to inserting the tool into the workpiece 1/8th, giving 1/4" removed, I've done it with a small round of 1018.
Now for the big lathe folks, that is probably nothing, think of my mindset, I came from a mini lathe and im sure the first time I get to try out a 12" lathe I will yet again be blown away by the difference, but until then, Im not spoiled.

mendoje
07-31-2006, 12:43 AM
"And I also have a SB book here that claims 1/4doc in 4" od steel,it is possible I suppose in backgear with a really ridgid setup and the right grind."

The group owner of the SB 10K yahoo group, easily duplicated the above, actually went way beyond it, taking nearly a 1/2" cut on 1018 CR bar stock, about 1-1/4" across corners, and posted pictures. By 1/2" I mean he advanced the tool 1/2" into the work, reducing the diameter by one inch! Now his 10K (which is just a 9" with more swing) has the optional V-belt pulleys, but still this is serious metal removal!

Heck, without even trying I've taken 1/8" cuts (1/4 diameter) with my leather belted 9A, also on 1018, using indexable carbide, which isn't "supposed" to work on these little lathes. It's a good thing my lathe cant read!

There really isn't a fascination with SB's. As someone already said, there's just a LOT of them out there, meaning lots of folks know how to make them purr. Plus there's LOTS of parts out there for support; used, factory, and even aftermarket, so a new user would be remiss to dismiss a SB from a practicality standpoint.

Jeff

Mark Hockett
07-31-2006, 04:43 AM
Thanks for all the replies so far on this thread. There have been some great comments and opinions.

I think many people probably misunderstood what the real question was. I never questioned the capabilities of the SB lathes. As I said I have owned one and made many good parts with it. The 9" SB lathe I owned was probably one of the most limited examples of a SB lathe, with no QC gear box, no power cross feed and feed from the lead screw, but it was good for learning on and it made many good parts. When you look at what’s available in the 9"-10" size the small SB lathes are a great choice for a small home shop. My problem was I outgrew the lathes capabilities and when I started looking for something larger the SB brand was no longer competitive with the options I wanted in a lathe.

Back to the original question, I questioned the author of the MW article about spending over $10,000.00 to rebuild a heavy 10 SB lathe. I also questioned why someone would spend over $20,000.00 for a new heavy 10 when there are better lathes available for less money. I understand that in the 9"-10" size that there might not be a better option but where most 9"-10" lathes with a 4' bed, like the one in the article, will fit, a 12"-13" lathe would probably fit. Also I would imagine that a local machine tool rebuilder could have done the rebuild for a lot less. Most larger cities have someone who specializes in machine tool rebuilding.

So let me ask a few more questions,

Who on this board would spend $9k-$13k to rebuild their SB, or would you buy another new or used lathe with the money?

Has anyone had SB rebuild their lathe?

If you had $20k (that’s what a new 10K cost in 2004) to spend on a new lathe would you buy a new SB 10K or another type of lathe?

Who on this board has bought a new American made lathe, with a 9" swing or larger, for personal use in the last 10 years?

I have asked myself most of these questions, Fix up my 9" SB or get a larger lathe, I got a 12"x36" Taiwan bench lathe. I got great service from that lathe but sold it to get a 13"x40" engine lathe for a fraction of $9k.

I also had $20k set aside for the purchase of a new lathe. With the $20k I bought a new American made Haas lathe.

I am not a person that gets emotionally attached to a tool like many seem too. Thistle hit the nail on the head, "its just a tool". I did not buy the Haas lathe just because it was made in America. I bought it because it was a good value compared to other lathes in its class. Due to my limited space my tools earn their keep or they end up in my storage locker or sold.

Mark Hockett

John Stevenson
07-31-2006, 05:19 AM
"And I also have a SB book here that claims 1/4doc in 4" od steel,it is possible I suppose in backgear with a really ridgid setup and the right grind."

The group owner of the SB 10K yahoo group, easily duplicated the above, actually went way beyond it, taking nearly a 1/2" cut on 1018 CR bar stock, about 1-1/4" across corners, and posted pictures. By 1/2" I mean he advanced the tool 1/2" into the work, reducing the diameter by one inch! Now his 10K (which is just a 9" with more swing) has the optional V-belt pulleys, but still this is serious metal removal!

Heck, without even trying I've taken 1/8" cuts (1/4 diameter) with my leather belted 9A, also on 1018, using indexable carbide, which isn't "supposed" to work on these little lathes. It's a good thing my lathe cant read!

There really isn't a fascination with SB's. As someone already said, there's just a LOT of them out there, meaning lots of folks know how to make them purr. Plus there's LOTS of parts out there for support; used, factory, and even aftermarket, so a new user would be remiss to dismiss a SB from a practicality standpoint.

Jeff

Means nothing at all.
I have pictures of a Myford taking a 1/2" depth of cut, read 1" material removal in steel.
There are ways to do this but it doesn't mean you can do it all day and at decent rates.
It just means it's possible to do.

I can stick weld 5 thou shim with a standard buzz box but it's a trick.
Would I do either in a real world situation ? No but it can be done.

.

JCHannum
07-31-2006, 07:40 AM
As I mentioned in another thread, the article is a good one, and it offers a lot of information for anyone who is considering this route in obtaining a "new" lathe.

When it comes to spending personal money, the decision is not always based on practicality, and that is simply human nature.

On my way to Detroit last week, I passed a truck trailering a fully restored Maverick, and I have seen money lavished on restoring Gremlins and the Good Lord only knows what else.

I just spent a ten day vacation in a motel on a golf course, and have no idea at all how anyone can justify the amount of money spent on a pastime that is nothing more than a game that can be accomplished much more quickly and cheaply by just kicking and throwing the ball. BTW, after you have proved you can do it once, why waste even more time doing it another 17 times?

Millions of more people spend billions of more dollars on golf than is ever spent by HSM's on South Bend lathes. At least with the lathe, it is possible to create things of value, and there is a very real possibility of recovering the initial investment. There is very little market for used score cards or smiley golf balls.

thistle
07-31-2006, 08:30 AM
The secret to taking a 0.25 depth of cut is lots of rake on the cutting tool, back gear and a gentle feed.

really you are taking a very thin shaving,1/4 inch wide

If you diligently copy the tool angles, and feeds in HOW TO RUIN A LATHE,that small machine will do it, with a leather flat belt.

Realistically , you dont do that all the time .

John Stevenson
07-31-2006, 09:47 AM
If you diligently copy the tool angles, and feeds in HOW TO RUIN A LATHE,that small machine will do it, with a leather flat belt.



Not got that book, is it a reprint ? :D

.

lazlo
07-31-2006, 12:04 PM
Not got that book, is it a reprint ? :D

It's a Lindsay reprint of the 1942 brochure that South Bend Lathe Works used to include with their lathes.
It's a great beginner's book, but for someone like you it probably wouldn't be worth it.

Its got a chapter on lathe tools which includes the standard pictures of the various lathe bits and relief
angles for various materials you can download from many places on the web.

lazlo
07-31-2006, 12:08 PM
Back to the original question, I questioned the author of the MW article about spending over $10,000.00 to rebuild a heavy 10 SB lathe.

I posted this question earlier in the thread: how can you spend $10,000 on rebuilding a Heavy 10? South Bend charges around $800 for a bend regrind. Figure $1,000 at most to replace the head bearings and such, what's left?

Are they hand-scraping the carriage and installing Turcite? :)

J Tiers
07-31-2006, 12:31 PM
The secret to taking a 0.25 depth of cut is lots of rake on the cutting tool, back gear and a gentle feed.

really you are taking a very thin shaving,1/4 inch wide

If you diligently copy the tool angles, and feeds in HOW TO RUIN A LATHE,that small machine will do it, with a leather flat belt.

Realistically , you dont do that all the time .

I have never had to go to back gear, but I only do those cuts on smaller parts.

It makes sense that in back gear you should be able to take a bigger feed, but you run into strength issues, I suspect.....

Trying to do it on a larger part you'd need back gear.

Mostly I do it if I need a one-step to finish diameter cut. Typically for a long but very small diameter stem on a part which isn't really able to have a center hole drilled in it.

chipeater
07-31-2006, 12:35 PM
They work on a time and materials basis, with a shop rate of $100/hour.


I posted this question earlier in the thread: how can you spend $10,000 on rebuilding a Heavy 10? South Bend charges around $800 for a bend regrind. Figure $1,000 at most to replace the head bearings and such, what's left?

Are they hand-scraping the carriage and installing Turcite? :)

lazlo
07-31-2006, 12:41 PM
They work on a time and materials basis, with a shop rate of $100/hour.

Ah, now that makes sense. I spent over a 100 hours rebuilding my Clausing, but it's now better than it left the factory.

Seems like "cheating" if you pay someone else to do the restoration :)

john hobdeclipe
07-31-2006, 12:45 PM
The secret to taking a 0.25 depth of cut is lots of rake on the cutting tool, back gear and a gentle feed.

really you are taking a very thin shaving,1/4 inch wide

If you diligently copy the tool angles, and feeds in HOW TO RUIN A LATHE,that small machine will do it, with a leather flat belt.

Realistically , you dont do that all the time .

Do I really need a book to show me how to RUIN a lathe? :D

John Stevenson
07-31-2006, 01:15 PM
Aaahh, at last John H has spotted it, my previous post fell on deaf keyboards..

.

Allan Waterfall
07-31-2006, 01:22 PM
Aaahh, at last John H has spotted it, my previous post fell on deaf keyboards..

. It'll be the time difference and BST that caused that.:D

Allan

lazlo
07-31-2006, 03:38 PM
Aaahh, at last John H has spotted it, my previous post fell on deaf keyboards...

Oh geez, I completely missed that John -- sorry! :eek:

I'm at work on a really long and boring teleconference, so I'm a bit humor-challenged at the moment :p

wierdscience
07-31-2006, 07:00 PM
Who on this board has bought a new American made lathe, with a 9" swing or larger, for personal use in the last 10 years?


Mark Hockett

If American made is the qualifer,then unless it was a SB the answer would be no.I guess a Hardinge could be a possibility,but what other manual American made iron is there? Monarch hasn't built a 10EE in years last I heard.

I would be willing to bet that if SB updated the heavy10 they would sell quite a few at $20k thou.That would be 1/2 or less of a Hardinge and 1/5 of a 10EE.

x39
07-31-2006, 10:16 PM
I just picked up a 9" SB toolroom lathe for $500.00. The reason I got it was that I now won't have to turn on my rotary phase converter on to do some piddling little job on my 3 phase 14x40. Parts are relatively cheap and easy to get. Hell, I even moved it and set it up by myself. Lastly, the thing is cute as a button, pleasing to the eye. Would I spend 10 grand getting it rebuilt? Yeah right, LOL! By the way, I'm not a real big fan of Atlas lathes, but I've seen some pretty ambitious work done on them.

x39
07-31-2006, 10:27 PM
even if all it amounts to is listening to somebody vent --- thanks for the therapy, you may have saved me a little money...
Have you ever considered motorcycle riding as a stress reducer? Works for me. ;)

BillH
07-31-2006, 11:52 PM
Its been the first time in over a year I had my south bend running. I just had to play with it before I go away again. With it mounted to its new chunk of channel iron, she cut soo beutifully. It brought happiness and joy to me. Going to enjoy it while I can!

Elninio
08-01-2006, 01:28 AM
14 pages - longest thread this year?

abn
08-01-2006, 01:50 AM
Of course it is, South Bends are owned and used by thousands of people spanning generations and continents...


14 pages - longest thread this year?

Mark Hockett
08-01-2006, 02:07 AM
x39,
I did almost the same thing. I picked up one of the $299.00 Homier 7"x12" mini lathe. Makes a good 2nd operation lathe and its fun to play with. Doesn't take much to oil it up and start using it. The thing cuts great. I even cut some stainless on it today. Before I had a 109 series Craftsman lathe. I sold it to get the mini lathe, which I like much better.

At last years GEARS show in Portland they had some small steam engine kits for sale. I am building one using only the mini lathe and my manual mill. My buddy also bought one, so were having a little contest building them. He told me I couldn’t use any of my CNC stuff to build it.

I've had much fun modifying it. I have added a cam lock tailstock, roller bearing carriage feed with chip guard, QC tool post and some other things. I have even made hundreds of colored anodized tool holders for the QC tool post, many of which I sold on ebay. I'd like to make a travel case on wheels for it so I can take it on vacation with me. That will go over real good with the wife.

Mark Hockett

x39
08-01-2006, 07:17 AM
I'd like to make a travel case on wheels for it so I can take it on vacation with me. That will go over real good with the wife.

Awesome idea, LOL! My wife usually throws me out of the house on Christmas day because I can't stand just sitting around. Mini-lathe in the living room...?

thistle
08-01-2006, 11:59 AM
Here is my copy of how to ruin a lathe. I believe SB company put it out recently as their products were lasting too long.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/ruinalathe.jpg

lazlo
08-01-2006, 09:27 PM
Wow Thistle, that's not the Lindsay reprint -- that's the original South Bend manual :)

IOWOLF
08-02-2006, 06:07 AM
It just keeps going ,and going, and going, and going.

torker
08-02-2006, 08:13 AM
But the real question is....can we mount divining rods on our SB lathes? :D

john hobdeclipe
08-02-2006, 09:01 AM
Here is my copy of how to ruin a lathe. I believe SB company put it out recently as their products were lasting too long.

Looks like interesting reading. May we have some enlightening quotes?

thistle
08-02-2006, 09:22 AM
the recently added section on leveling a lathe by Alastair, using your feet as shims is good reading.

BillH
08-02-2006, 10:39 AM
the recently added section on leveling a lathe by Alastair, using your feet as shims is good reading.
OOoooh thats a nice dig.

yorgatron
08-02-2006, 07:18 PM
i have an Atlas 10" and i use it to make parts for my '72 Sportster,'54 Oldsmobile,and my brother's '51 Hudson.
my dad bought the Atlas before i was born,he used it to make parts for motorcycles and cars.
when i run into something i can't do,i take it to Jerry,a semi-retired master machinist.
he has a 13" South Bend.
he uses it to make parts for his '29 Studebaker,that is,when he's not working on one of his customer's cars or engines.