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wierdscience
08-03-2006, 12:48 AM
Every so often one of these comes up for sale,I've never used a Hardinge mill so I am looking for info on them,tapers,hp various features.

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=932712

JRouche
08-03-2006, 02:04 AM
I have one of those. Nice little horizontal mill. It is a small horizontal so that should be considered.

The best source for info can be found on the yahoo group for these mills. Alot of good information and very helpful people. JRouche

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hardinge-Mill/

Oh yeah, that gov chunk is done. Dont go fishing for that one. That thing has a fish pond in the pan :D

jburstein
08-03-2006, 10:47 AM
ask D. Thomas what he thinks of them. He might explode. Or just let out a string of expletives. I've never run one, but I've seen a few, and they look nice. Similar handwheels and levers to an HLVH, which seems to me to be a good thing. So, basically, what I'm saying is that, I don't know anything...but it's pretty.

-Justin

Milacron of PM
08-03-2006, 12:41 PM
ask D. Thomas what he thinks of them. He might explode. Or just let out a string of expletives. I've never run one, but I've seen a few, and they look nice. Similar handwheels and levers to an HLVH, which seems to me to be a good thing. So, basically, what I'm saying is that, I don't know anything...but it's pretty.

-Justin Nah, just always annoyed me that Hardinge created such masterpieces with the DSM/DV and the HLV-H lathe series and then somehow managed to lay this mill egg on an unsuspecting public. What Hardinge should have made in the small mill line was something comparable to the Deckel FP1, but what we got intead was a joke in comparison to an FP1.

Bottom line is they are fine for HSM use if still in good shape but don't expect it to be a "Hardinge" in the usual sense...might as well be a US Burke or similar...so don't pay a premium for one just because it says "Hardinge" on it.

Dick
08-03-2006, 03:50 PM
D.Thomas, I've read your diatribe against the Hardinge mill too many times to be surprised by your general tone of disdain for them.

You would have a valid point in comparing the Hardinge mill to a Deckel fp-1 or somesuch if it there was any correlation between the two companies at all. Would it make any sense for taking Deckel to task for never making a lathe as good as an HLV-H?

I don't know the production numbers for the Hardinge mills, but judging by the numbers of them for sale used I would guess a hell of alot of them rolled out of Elmira from the early 1940's till the 1960's or so. It would suggest that if the machine was such a dog it probably wouldn't have survived in production nearly as long as it did. They aren't usually pristine hanger queens when they come up for sale either, which would indicate they got the crap used out of them over the years. Obviously there was a demand and price point these mills fulfilled for a fair number of years. So if the machine was such an "egg" I guess Hardinge really pulled the wool over the eyes of all those suckers, eh.

Which begs the question, after your long history of denigrating the Hardinge mills have you ever actually used one? Or did you just get your fingernails greasy on one at a couple auctions?

I have one in my shop. It isn't the end all and be all of milling machines. I wouldn't pay some of the astronomical prices the machine has brought on occasion on ebay. But for the reasonable price I paid it is a nice piece of machinery. The spindle, ways,dials and screws are as good as any machine I could afford. To insinuate that the quality and accuracy of the Hardinge mill is equivalent to anything US Burke produced is balderdash. At that isn't meant as a backhanded slap at Burke owners and users.

Oh well, at least you spared us the drivel about how the "knee gears are weak".................


****

Milacron of PM
08-03-2006, 08:44 PM
You would have a valid point in comparing the Hardinge mill to a Deckel fp-1 or somesuch if it there was any correlation between the two companies at all. Would it make any sense for taking Deckel to task for never making a lathe as good as an HLV-H?

It's simply frustrating to me that the one USA company that could have made the ultimate small mill, not only didn't make the ultimate, but made one so mundane.


I don't know the production numbers for the Hardinge mills, but judging by the numbers of them for sale used I would guess a hell of alot of them rolled out of Elmira from the early 1940's till the 1960's or so. It would suggest that if the machine was such a dog it probably wouldn't have survived in production nearly as long as it did. They aren't usually pristine hanger queens when they come up for sale either, which would indicate they got the crap used out of them over the years. Obviously there was a demand and price point these mills fulfilled for a fair number of years. So if the machine was such an "egg" I guess Hardinge really pulled the wool over the eyes of all those suckers, eh.

You are right, there are a gazillion of those mills 'out there'...but there are a gazillon Atlas and Craftsman lathes out there as well. All that means is it was probably the least expensive machine with it's capabilities at the time.


Which begs the question, after your long history of denigrating the Hardinge mills have you ever actually used one?

Never actually made chips with one, but have run a few. Odd vertical head arrangment, crude/ flimsy power feed mechanism, and ridiculous spindle speed change arrangement..having to stoop down, open a cabinet door into a dark base, and yes weak knee gear...seen a few stripped of teeth...and the replacment gear is absolutely unavailable.

What they should have offered was a version with Reeves drive in the base and integral DC variable speed drive for all 3 axis, but for some reason, never did.

Having said all that, a perfectly decent machine for light use...just not worth the premium price the "shinier" ones tend to bring...and no better than a US Burke..which also can be a decent machine within it's capabilities.

wierdscience
08-03-2006, 09:21 PM
Okay,thanks for the replies,can anyone enlighten me on the spindle taper and just what do they use for speed changes,tubes,electrical nightmare or two different sized hampster wheels?

I'm looking for a small horizonal mill and there is one of these coming up later this fall that will go cheap and is in perfect conditon.I just don't want anything that takes a queer taper or collet.

JCHannum
08-03-2006, 10:01 PM
More information here:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/cataract%20miller/page4.html

It would appear two different models, one using 4C & the other using 5C. I believe the 5C is more common.

Optics Curmudgeon
08-03-2006, 10:01 PM
5C spindle taper. The vertical head had 3C, IIRC. These had a two speed reversable motor and two or three steps on the drive pulley. One problem is that in making the motor two speeds and reversable they had to sacrifice making it dual voltage, and many are odd voltages. A single speed motor with a VFD is the answer. Like a lot of "legendary" machines, they often go for more than they should. Nice anyway, for general use. I bid $300 for one, at a gov't auction, wasn't willing to go higher. It went cash & carry for $1850, no extra charge for the rust.

Joe

wierdscience
08-03-2006, 10:36 PM
5C spindle taper. The vertical head had 3C, IIRC. These had a two speed reversable motor and two or three steps on the drive pulley. One problem is that in making the motor two speeds and reversable they had to sacrifice making it dual voltage, and many are odd voltages. A single speed motor with a VFD is the answer. Like a lot of "legendary" machines, they often go for more than they should. Nice anyway, for general use. I bid $300 for one, at a gov't auction, wasn't willing to go higher. It went cash & carry for $1850, no extra charge for the rust.

Joe

Thanks for that,those G'mint auctions especially the ones run by Levy-Latham are a joke so far getting anything half way reasonable.The mill I am looking at will be at an auction,but it is being done voice bid only by a very small company that doesn't advertise much.The're last sale I picked up a Hardinge 2nd op lathe and a Leland gifford drill press both for $150 working condition with some tooling,ya,I stole them:D

lazlo
08-12-2006, 06:53 PM
D.Thomas, I've read your diatribe against the Hardinge mill too many times to be surprised by your general tone of disdain for them.

Just ignore it -- he criticizes all mills that aren't a Deckel. ;)


To insinuate that the quality and accuracy of the Hardinge mill is equivalent to anything US Burke produced is balderdash.

I had a Hardinge mill, and upgraded to a Burke Millrite. To be perfectly honest, my experience was that the Millrite is a bigger, more rigid machine than the Hardinge with the vertical adapter, but the Hardinge is most definitely a very nice horizontal. The Millrite is basically a 7/8th's size Bridgeport mill. Of course, Don criticizes the Bridgeport as well :)

Eventually I'm going to upgrade to a full-sized Bridgeport, but for now my shop is in a two-car garage, and I just don't have the space.

Alistair Hosie
08-12-2006, 07:52 PM
Looks aside and there will always be a debate about what pleases the eye but remember that "Hardinge" certainly in terms of their lathes produce a finely engineered and designed machine .In other words well thought ,out at the planning stage and well executed at the build stage. I find it hard to believe the would not do so with their mill's after all a reputation such as theirs maybe leads us to expect absolute perfection all ways.
I wonder on a different topic why anyone would stick a nice machine outside without coverring it and letting it rust so badly.It's so much easier to throw a cover over it ,than to expect to get top dollar and expect also the potential buyer to be over enthusiastic about all that cleaning and buffing to be done once he get's it home .It just isn't sensible or needed when to prevention was so easy.Alistair

giddingm
08-12-2006, 08:56 PM
I was expecting something to compliment their beautiful lathes.

Milacron of PM
08-13-2006, 02:02 AM
Just ignore it -- he criticizes all mills that aren't a Deckel. ;)


Total BS. The list of manual mills I've complimented on forums in the past as being wonderful machines other than Deckel is long and varied. Cincinnati Milacron, Lagun, Abene, Tree, Wells Index, Maho, Aciera, Beaver/Pal, Schaublin, Fehlmann, Enshu, Howa, & Makino...come to mind off the top of my head.

wierdscience
08-13-2006, 11:02 AM
Looks aside and there will always be a debate about what pleases the eye but remember that "Hardinge" certainly in terms of their lathes produce a finely engineered and designed machine .In other words well thought ,out at the planning stage and well executed at the build stage. I find it hard to believe the would not do so with their mill's after all a reputation such as theirs maybe leads us to expect absolute perfection all ways.
I wonder on a different topic why anyone would stick a nice machine outside without coverring it and letting it rust so badly.It's so much easier to throw a cover over it ,than to expect to get top dollar and expect also the potential buyer to be over enthusiastic about all that cleaning and buffing to be done once he get's it home .It just isn't sensible or needed when to prevention was so easy.Alistair

The one in the link is owned by the government,they don't care about it getting rusty,or that there was probibly nothing wrong with the mill in the first place,it's just not the're money.

recoilless
08-15-2006, 02:55 PM
Correction on the post about the spindle tapers. The horizontal taper is 5C but the verticle head spindle is in 4C. When I bought mine, the previous owner had an R8 in the vert. head. Same body dia. as 4C, but longer by an inch +/- & different nose angle. I like mine a lot because it fits in my shop. All machines have their faults and positive attributes, finding one that fits your needs is the key. My mill is 440 volts only, although most were dual voltage 220/440. A rotary converter and transformers solved that. It came with the vert. head but no overarm or horizontal arbor. I have solved that via one of the well known East coast machinery farmers. As I said before, i like it as a small horizontal mill with vert. capabilities.