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_Axel_
08-04-2006, 04:49 AM
Who makes the most accurate toolroom lathe in the world? I was thinking of sizes 12x36 or similar. New or used!

Milacron of PM
08-04-2006, 07:32 AM
In that general size any of three Schaublin models..the 135, 150 and 160. But if you get a little smaller in length between centers (20 inches BC), the Monarch 10ee and Hardinge HLV-H are in contention. Although there do exist Monarch 10ee's with 30 inch BC, but they are pretty rare.

Millman
08-04-2006, 07:50 AM
ME. As soon as I win that lottery.

Evan
08-04-2006, 09:07 AM
The most accurate lathe in that size range is the Precitech Nanoform 250 Ultra. It is a 9.8" swing and 8.6" Z. It can turn to an accuracy of 0.1 micron with a surface roughness of ~ one nanometer.

http://www.precitech.com/Precitech_nano250features.html

Milacron of PM
08-04-2006, 10:42 AM
The most accurate lathe in that size range is the Precitech Nanoform 250 Ultra. It is a 9.8" swing and 8.6" Z. It can turn to an accuracy of 0.1 micron with a surface roughness of ~ one nanometer.

http://www.precitech.com/Precitech_nano250features.html

1. 9.8" x 8.6" is not in the size range of 12" x 36"
2. I presumed he meant a manual machine since he said "toolroom lathe". The 250 Ultra is officially a "CNC turning center"

Having said that, I'm glad you posted that link as I was not aware of the Nanoform...pretty cool machine.

Tinkerer
08-04-2006, 12:37 PM
It's the Man holding onto the handles that determines the ultimate accuracy of any machine.... be it a clapped out import or a high dollar beauty. I know that's not what you asked but that's what it boils down to. ;)

Evan
08-04-2006, 12:45 PM
No handles on that one.

Don, they have larger ones.

And, there are even larger ones... :D

http://engineering.llnl.gov/lodtm/

Elninio
08-04-2006, 01:54 PM
At a size of 12 x 36, room temperature plays a role in determining the precision of a super-precise machine

http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/toa/toa114.html

lazlo
08-04-2006, 03:19 PM
At a size of 12 x 36, room temperature plays a role in determining the precision of a super-precise machine


The machine that Evan posted is liquid cooled.

Very neat machine! It uses linear hydrostatic oil slideways bedded in Durabar cast iron with a granite base.

When can I buy one at Harbor Freight? :p

lazlo
08-04-2006, 03:23 PM
And, there are even larger ones... :D

http://engineering.llnl.gov/lodtm/


Your tax dollars at work (not you Evan ;) ):

For the past 20 years, the LODTM has been dedicated to the Space-Based Laser program. Now, we at LLNL are dedicated to finding a broad customer base for the machine,
...
Even after 20 years, the LODTM is still the most accurate large machine tool in the world.

Central to the accuracy of the LODTM is a kinematically supported metrology frame, which is made of Super Invar™ and isolated from the environment with 1-m¾C temperature-controlled water. All movements of the machine are made relative to this stable, unstressed, isolated metrology frame. The frame provides the platform for the vacuum pathway laser interferometers, which measure linear distances, and the capacitance gauges, which measure spindle error motions for real-time correction. Almost the entire path between the part and the tool tip are included in this metrology loop, allowing parts to be made to the accuracy of the metrology.This complete measurement of actual machine motion allows complete compensation of both thermal and geometric motion error in the machine structure.

Pretty amazing that they have real-time spindle compensation...

John Stevenson
08-04-2006, 05:51 PM
All these microns and nanometers don't mean a thing.

On some jobs I do I have to be cock on.

.

Milacron of PM
08-04-2006, 06:02 PM
All these microns and nanometers don't mean a thing.

On some jobs I do I have to be cock on.

.

cock on= halfway between spot on and dead nuts ?

John Stevenson
08-04-2006, 06:15 PM
cock on= halfway between spot on and dead nuts ?

Better than both :D

.

_Axel_
08-05-2006, 12:32 AM
1. 9.8" x 8.6" is not in the size range of 12" x 36"
2. I presumed he meant a manual machine since he said "toolroom lathe". The 250 Ultra is officially a "CNC turning center"

Having said that, I'm glad you posted that link as I was not aware of the Nanoform...pretty cool machine.

Yes i meant manual lathes not CNC.;)

_Axel_
08-05-2006, 12:34 AM
It's the Man holding onto the handles that determines the ultimate accuracy of any machine.... be it a clapped out import or a high dollar beauty. I know that's not what you asked but that's what it boils down to. ;)

So NASA spent all that money for nothing?:confused:

Milacron of PM
08-05-2006, 12:01 PM
Cazeneuve, made in France and still in business, would be in contention in that size range as well.

www.lathes.co.uk/cazeneuve/page2.html

speedsport
08-05-2006, 12:20 PM
If you are talking absolutes it would have to come down to one individual machine, could be a number of companies. Now if you meant new machines that the average person can afford, the new SIEG PRO Limited Edition 12x36 is gonna suprise a lot of people, kinda like the difference between a Toyota base model and a Lexus LS450.

Milacron of PM
08-05-2006, 12:43 PM
Now if you meant new machines that the average person can afford, the new SIEG PRO Limited Edition 12x36

Never heard of that one...got a link to more info and photos ?

Milacron of PM
08-05-2006, 01:14 PM
If you are talking absolutes it would have to come down to one individual machine, could be a number of companies.

If it came down to one individual machine, it could be the Schaublin 160 I just sold last week and is now sitting in Savannah, GA ! This was not only possibly the ultimate example of "precision with rigidity" for heavy cuts as well in a "toolroom size" (as opposed to the mythical Monarch 1000ee which was well beyond toolroom size), but this particular lathe is quite possibly the least used 160 on Earth, thereby being still like new as well.

It was purchased by Polaroid in the 1970's for their prototype toolroom and essentially never used. Word was the controls were just too "strange" so the tool guys avoided using it ! Backlash is .0008" on cross and compound...and that's with standard screws. Scrapings on cross and compound ways as crisp as any new machine I've ever seen (not chrome) Vee ways are hardened and ground.

The carriage feed is via ballscrew, which also serves as leadscrew. It has rapid traverse lever...which will rapid the carriage either direction even while the feed is running the opposite direction..without disengaging the regular feed The rapid traverse feature is actually almost necessary in this case, as due to the ballscrew carriage feed, there is no halfnut or rack and pinion....the screw is always engaged to the ball nut, and therefore carriage movement via the handwheel is a bit slow if one is making major changes in position...hence the rapid traverse system.**

Although only slightly larger than the Monarch 10ee overall, I have seen the two side by side and the ways of the Schaublin are twice as large as the Monarchs. The bed ribbing is massive as well.

I installed Heidenhain DRO on the machine prior to delivery and discovered in the process of attempting to drill holes in the cross slide for mounting the scale that the cross slide is hardened steel ! I had to grind below the case hardening just to drill/tap for the scale mounts, and then when the drill finally 'took' the chips curled out instead of the expected cast iron dust.

Almost a shame to use a DRO as it has the ultimate dials....the cross slide for instance has a "clock" like situation where one dial turns as usual but a second dial counts each revolution.

Variable speed for spindle is similar to Hardinge in that the Reeves drive is motorized...just press + or - button and the RPM changes and RPM indicator drum turns. But unlike Hardinge, this has a back gear, so combined with 2 speed motor you have quite a range of speed and torque available.
Rotating dials with stop dogs on the speed indicator drum allow you to set limits on speed range if desired, so you can change speeds without even looking at the dial.

Tailstock has built in magnifier glass to view scale on the quill...

Ah, there's more, but I sense "yeah, yeah, so what..." setting in so I'll stop...

:)

www.anglo-swiss-tools.co.uk/Resources/SV160a.JPG


**some of you are probably wondering how this could possibly work with the ball screw always engaged. As it turns out, the ball nut, rather than the usual stationary situation.....rotates ! Apparently an external gear drives the ball nut and is disengaged during rapid traverse. There is a secondary spline drive for the rapid.

Millman
08-05-2006, 01:18 PM
{{It was purchased by Polaroid in the 1970's for their prototype toolroom and essentially never used.}} Really know how to hurt a guy, don't cha? Still waiting on one like that.

Tinkerer
08-05-2006, 01:56 PM
So NASA spent all that money for nothing?:confused:
The NASA machine is CNC.... with enough treats they could train a monkey to push the right button to make a cut. I thought you meant digital control... you know fly by fingers... manual interface. :cool:

C. Tate
08-05-2006, 08:16 PM
You can the most accurate machine in the world but without the skill to go with it you don't have anything. The man makes the machine. I have seen talented Tool Makers use worn out slop to make the finest gages.

nheng
08-05-2006, 08:28 PM
This was not only possibly the ultimate example of "precision with rigidity" for heavy cuts as well in a "toolroom size" (as opposed to the mythical Monarch 1000ee which was well beyond toolroom size), but this particular lathe is quite possibly the least used 160 on Earth, thereby being still like new as well.

And you let the finest Schaublin 160 on earth slip thru your fingers? You now have to hand in your resignation and assign a new moderator to the Schaublin forum :D :D

Oh well, at least you put Heidenhain on it instead of the run of the mill (lathe?) stuff ;) Den

lazlo
08-05-2006, 08:59 PM
And you let the finest Schaublin 160 on earth slip thru your fingers?

Don's had that lathe advertised for sale for a couple of years. The price was listed as "High." ;)

http://www.machinetools.com/MT/Machines/index.tmpl?page=detail&ListingID=112442075912694283

He sold it to Cruzin's boss on PracticalMachinist as a personal machine. He told Cruzin to go find the "ultimate dream machine", so I'm guessing Don made a very nice profit on the deal :D

The guy who bought it is making a catamaran. Why you would want/need a 4,000 lb Swiss toolroom lathe to build a catamaran is beyond me...:rolleyes:

lazlo
08-05-2006, 09:06 PM
Never heard of that one...got a link to more info and photos ?

Don,

Sieg is the Chinese company that makes the Harbor Freight mini lathes and micro- and mini-mills.

http://www.siegind.com/aboutus.htm


the new SIEG PRO Limited Edition 12x36 is gonna suprise a lot of people, kinda like the difference between a Toyota base model and a Lexus LS450.

I have a Sieg lathe. It's not a Toyota. It's not even Yugo :p

By the way, Sieg makes the "Red/Black" line of machines for hobbyists, and they make a "Blue/White" line of machines for industrial use.
I'm guessing the "Sieg Pro 12x36" is their 12x36 industrial lathe:

http://www.siegind.com/Products/WB-CQ6232E.htm

This is the same Taiwanese/Chinese 12x36 toolroom lathe you can buy at Enco/Penn Tool, etc. The Mythbusters guys have
one in their shop.

speedsport
08-05-2006, 10:05 PM
actually it's a new premium line thats currently under development. SIEG also makes machine tools for Grizzly, Shopfox and others. Stay tuned.

Milacron of PM
08-06-2006, 12:34 AM
And you let the finest Schaublin 160 on earth slip thru your fingers? You now have to hand in your resignation and assign a new moderator to the Schaublin forum :D :D

Oh well, at least you put Heidenhain on it instead of the run of the mill (lathe?) stuff ;) Den

One of those deals where I just couldn't justify keeping it considering the money it was worth and considering my usage for it doesn't require that much precision. Plus I have a Schaublin 135, which I intend to keep....would seem downright decadent to have both ! Plus it didn't "slip thu my fingers"...I owned and enjoyed it for two years..that was enough for me.

www.practicalmachinist.com/schab30.jpg
www.practicalmachinist.com/schab35.jpg


Why you would want/need a 4,000 lb Swiss toolroom lathe...

FWIW, I thought it was that heavy, but I picked it up with my electric forklift that has built in digital scale and got a reading of 3,600 lbs. Perhaps the catalog weight included the seperate combination electrical/tool cabinet...not sure.

_Axel_
08-06-2006, 12:57 AM
The NASA machine is CNC.... with enough treats they could train a monkey to push the right button to make a cut. I thought you meant digital control... you know fly by fingers... manual interface. :cool:

Do NASA buy CNC machinery from Harbor Freight? And im sure NAS has many manual mchines too, none are probbly Chinese?!

Im know too that a bad late can be used to priduce fine work, but a good lathe is better and faster and more predictable.

Milacron of PM
08-06-2006, 01:19 AM
Im know too that a bad late can be used to priduce fine work, but a good lathe is better and faster and more predictable.

It also depends somewhat on the mindset of the operator. Some folks enjoy the challenge of turning out precision work on "difficult" machines, and others enjoy the use of the machine itself as part of the process.

Being in both the woodworking and metalworking fields over the decades I've noticed many woodworkers enjoy "getting by" with minimal or decrepit machines as it creates the impression within themselves of more personal "craft" on their part...that they turned such beautiful work in spite of their machinery.

In contrast many metalworkers enjoy the machines themselves, and a fine machine adds to the enjoyment of the overall process.

But either way is ok, just a personality thing I guess.

Evan
08-06-2006, 02:04 AM
What NASA machine? The LODTM is at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab and has nothing to do with NASA. It was most likely funded out of the Air Force or DARPA budgets as part of the "Star Wars" space based laser program. The original use was to make solid metal infrared reflecting mirrors, usually from aluminum. Solid metal mirrors are used because they can be efficiently cooled when subjected to extreme energy flux. The LODTM is accurate enough to produce net shape mirrors for infrared wavelengths with no post machining polishing.