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pntrbl
08-20-2006, 12:27 AM
Complete newbie here but I've walked into something I can't pass up. For the price of making some parts (yet to be negotiated) I will own a 9x42 Bridgeport and 2 good sized Engine Lathes. A LeBlond and a Logan. Right now I'm setting up for 3 phase and dealing with how am I ever gonna move them things, but the one thing I will have to buy is a bandsaw.

The raw material is approx. 9-10 inch dia. ordinary steel with a hole in the middle, but I will also have to cut 1 piece of stainless of a similar dia. for each assembly. There's also some aluminum stands and what have you.

I was thinking about a horizontal saw vs vertical. Let the weight of the saw do the work instead of me standing there trying to keep it straight. I haven't a clue tho! LOL!

No doubt this is a big bite for someone with no experience, but if I can pull it off .....

Bill

Millman
08-20-2006, 12:32 AM
you're a lucky dog. I would use a horizontal saw for production with that diameter.

TECHSHOP
08-20-2006, 12:41 AM
You aren't starting too small, are you now?

I would go with a horizontal saw, set it up and let it cut while you are doing something else. Don't know how long your raw stock is, but I guess you have the room for all this stuff with space left over to stand?

Good luck, and get a pair of good work boots.

CCWKen
08-20-2006, 12:42 AM
Ditto on the "dog" and horizontal. :D I think I'd stay away from aluminum supports though. Use a roller bed for material handling. As soon as you get it, you'll be cutting heavy stock too.

pntrbl
08-20-2006, 09:50 AM
I haven't a clue what lengths the stock comes in but no doubt material that size is gonna get heavy fast. It'll need some solid support on it's way into the saw.

Another question, is it possible to easily dis-assemble something resembling the top half of the Bridgeport? Less weight and a lower CG would be a whole lot better for moving it. I'm assuming an engine hoist would be involved, lol, but I have one.

Bill

pcarpenter
08-20-2006, 11:05 AM
If you are primarily concerned with center of gravity, then you can simply drop the knee pretty low, and carefully rotate the head until it is upside down. This is standard practice for transport.

Your engine crane will only work if you are going to take things apart. The whole mill weighs close to a ton, and there is really no practical way to pick one up with a shop crane and set it on a trailer (too high).

I loaded mine onto my trailer with a 30 ton gantry crane :D I took the liberty of removing the head while it was still in that shop and put the head in the bed of the truck.

Removal at home involved disassembly and the use of a shop crane. After getting home, I had to remove the ram and turret, table, knee etc. and reach down inside using a bar across some webbing to lift the rest off....and that was a stretch. Search on the web...I found a page somewhere where someone had shipping weights for the major sub-parts that will give you an idea of what is involved.

Somewhere in this forum is an old post where another fellow documented taking one apart and loading it into his van with a shop crane. It even included info on the length of the steel bar for wedging inside the column webbing as I recall. I printed that and used his advice.

Paul

Tinkerer
08-20-2006, 12:51 PM
The raw material is approx. 9-10 inch dia. ordinary steel with a hole in the middle, but I will also have to cut 1 piece of stainless of a similar dia. for each assembly.

I haven't a clue what lengths the stock comes in but no doubt material that size is gonna get heavy fast. It'll need some solid support on it's way into the saw.

Bill
Bill... Just a heads up if you think the mill and lathe are gonna be a SOB to move here a bit of info for ya

If your talking hot rolled 8" solid round bar weights 170.9 lb. per ft. Mill lengths run 20 ft that's 3418.00 lb to unload. If your talking pipe schedule 40 is 28.55 lb pf and 80 is 43.39 lb pf. shortest mill length 21 ft.

Now 10" HR solid round bar weights 267.0 lb. per ft. Mill lengths run 20 ft that's 5340.00 lb to unload. If your talking pipe schedule 40 is 40.48 lb pf and 80 is 64.43 lb pf. shortest mill length 21 ft.

Now most mills will cut to length but that's gunna effect your profits and still anyway you have them slice it it's still going to be heavy to move. :eek:

Alistair Hosie
08-20-2006, 01:33 PM
It's not how old you are.
It's how you are old. and how old the woman you hold ,or how old the woman you feel.Alistair if you are a woman of course:D

Scishopguy
08-20-2006, 04:08 PM
Bill,

Moving those doesn't have to be a problem. The lathes can be jacked up and lag screwed to wood timbers (RR ties work well for this). The mill and lathes can be moved around on your slab floor by using lengths of 1" water pipe. I cut mine into 4' lengths and jacked the mill up about 2" with a 5' pinch bar. Then I slipped a couple of the pipes under it and rolled it forward, adding more pipes, until I got it close to where it was going. I had to turn it 90* by a little persuasion with the pinch bar, but it moved easily with just me and a friend. The lathes will be almost as easy but be careful when pinching them around sideways. You don't want to turn one over......bad thing! The main thing is to work slow and steady, use plenty of wood shims to steady things when jacking, and be careful.

Best of luck with your good find!!!

pntrbl
08-20-2006, 07:26 PM
What I'm taking on here was an existing operation and now I'm wondering if they didn't buy the stock rough cut from some supplier. I've been looking at horizontal band saws and it's gonna take a big one! Probably not feasable.

I've been told the the company had a bandsaw way back when but I doubt it was a monster big enough to handle thousands on lbs of whatever they're using. Obviously I'll be asking this question the next time I see the man!

In any event I'm makin' the deal for labor. The company's buyin' the material. They used to have an in house part-time machinist about 10 years ago but he went away and the machines have been idle ever since.

Their last 25 piece run was done outside 7-8 years ago and they bought the material then, so they're expecting to do the same now. I do feel I should be responsible for any scrap ..... we're still negotiating.

Good tip on dropping the knee and rotating the head. Anything to get it lower.

I'll need to get them up on a trailer to transport them to their new home, so what I'm thinking I'll do is weld me up 2 dolly's. 4 casters on each. For safety I'll get casters rated around 500#. 8 would be capable of 4000#. 2"sq 1/4 wall tubing should handle the load. I've built car trailers outa less.

Then I'll winch 'em up and haul 'em home one at a time? I sure hope so.

Bill

Carld
08-20-2006, 09:02 PM
Are you a machinist now or are you going to learn while you do this job? From your first post I get the feeling that this is all new to you. You may have a lot of surprises coming. Maybe you should do the parts in their shop for a while. You will have to have an engine lift or overhead crane to move the parts if they are precut for you. If you cut the parts you will need a 12" or better cutoff saw and they are expensive and an overhead crane capacity of 3 tons. You are talking major shop here, you can't even manhandle the cut parts easy to get them in a lathe.

Forget about the dolly trick. Get a trailer rated at 6-8000lb or better and a trk to pull it. Hire a wrecker to put the machines on the trailer, one machine per trip and haul them to where ever. Be sure to strap them down real good. Have a wrecker remove them and set them in the shop. Roll them in place using 3/8" water pipe. keep at least one roller under each end of a lathe and three or four under the mill. Move them slowly and with help. The pipes should be plenty long enough to be able to swing the mill or lathe around without falling off the pipe. 6" to 12" sticking out will work. The mill is about 2000lb, the lathes must be about 12" swing or better so they may be 4000lb. If you have never moved stuff like this I suggest you get a hauling company to move them.

Do you have 3ph where you are putting the machines? If not, have you checked to see if it is even available there. Have you checked how much it costs for 3ph service? I run my machines off a 3ph converter and it's much cheaper than a 3ph service.

pntrbl
08-21-2006, 01:49 AM
I will be learning as I do this job and the company that's giving up the machines is fully aware of that fact. No doubt there's gonna be some surprises along the way. If you nice people will have me I intend to ask a whole bunch of questions!

The parts used to be made in this shop on these machines as I explained in an earlier post, it was an existing operation, and there sure ain't no 3 ton overhead crane in there! They must have been getting that big stuff pre-cut.

Got a Phasemaster model MA1 on hand, max largest motor 5HP, total 15HP, and I've already done the research on wiring up the 3-phase. Need to check the motor on that LeBlond still ....

I'm still liking "my dolly trick" over some bozo I don't know with a wrecker. What if he doesn't get it balanced right and we get a mid air flip? No, no, no. Plus I gotta hire one 3 times at 2 different locations? With "my dolly trick" I'll custom build them to fit the machines myself for the price of materials. That way I'll never have to get the machines higher than a few inches from a solid surface.

Seems to me these machines weigh about as much as cars. I've hauled a bunch of those. The difference is the cars were on wheels.

I could be wrong tho. LOL! As always, I'm open for any and all opinions.

Bill

Tinkerer
08-21-2006, 02:45 AM
I agree I think you should see if you can run a few of these parts at the machines present location. That way you can see if you like this deal or would buying your machines be cheaper in the long run. Also another thing steel prices have climbed quite a bit in 7-8 yrs so if you pouch a part or two could get hairy real quick. Also tooling cost can eat you alive... it's the little things that add up fast. As for a crane to lift with they might of had a powered gantry to move the steel about or a big azz tow motor either way most assuredly they had something... if not I know they had a back brace after working at it. Remember always look a gift horse in the mouth... unless you have a way to move and bury it in a moments notice. As for your move I'd make a wide wooden sled base bolt the machine down and call a roll back in to move them.

pntrbl
08-21-2006, 10:10 AM
Now that I'm realizing a bandsaw may not be required up front, the idea of running some parts where the machines are now is looking better all the time. No room for a bandsaw in there at this time which is why I was thinking of moving the whole operation. There's also some amount of tooling under the ten years of accumulated stuff they're buried under that I'll need to find.

The downside is the shop's better than a hundred from home. Travel time and fuel ya know. But I've been known to do sleepovers for a good enough reason. Gotta kick it around with the man in charge. He's the gift horse! Part of his motivation is he wants the machines out of his shop tho.

There's no doubt in my mind I'll enjoy the challenge of makin' some chips. I was a 20something kid the 1st time I saw a Bridgeport and I've been wanting to get my hands on one ever since. A man can only be as accurate as his tools allow and no matter what type of material or machines I'm using, I push my limits all the time.

Bill

Millman
08-21-2006, 10:54 AM
{A man can only be as accurate as his tools allow} Come on now, damn good parts can be made on a bad machine, if you do it right.