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lane
09-08-2006, 10:05 PM
Where can I get a set of plans For a STENT cutter grinder ,over here in the states. Built the QOURN its a sorry excuse for a cutter grinder. I wont something like This [/url]http://gromax-usa.com/grinders/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610
all help appreciated.http://gromax-usa.com/grinders/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610

John Stevenson
09-09-2006, 06:25 AM
It was a deal worked out with Bush and Blair, we got the better secondhand deals you got the Simpsons.

.

speedy
09-09-2006, 06:31 AM
.............and Bush

Evan
09-09-2006, 07:47 AM
It was a deal worked out with Bush and Blair, we got the better secondhand deals you got the Simpsons.

And, having a cretin as prime minister we ended up with nothing.

JIMofalltrades031
09-09-2006, 07:50 AM
And, having a cretin as prime minister we ended up with nothing.

So now you don't have to worry about something you don't have :D

Bill Pace
09-09-2006, 08:05 AM
Okay, back to Lanes request for the Stent drawings.........

He in a near neighbor of mine and we have done a bit of collaboration on the fixtures, ---though hes not aware yet of my now having in my possesion a fine set of drawings, courtesy of Frank (lazlo) and Norm, -----I will pass a copy of the drawings along to him.

Lane started me on this 'witch hunt' for the 'perfect' T&C fixture. I recently visited him and we were discussing (cussing?) his finishing up the Quorn and his dissapointment in it, (made a MOST beautiful version, by the way) this led to a discussion of his Darex 90 features and being sorta limited to doing end mills, and that it would be interesting to see what the 'Tinker' would be like, etc, etc, which has led to the Glen Wilson, and the Stent and etc, etc

J Tiers
09-09-2006, 09:48 AM
I also totally fail to see the point of the Quorn.

It is a huge amount of trouble to make, more of a pilgrimage than a project (or possibly a martyrdom).

When you are done, you have a machine that essentially only does one thing.... sharpen end mills, which you can buy new for a few dollars each. (Probably also reamers, if small, and other small items, many of which do not need the precision)

The investment in the Quorn, if converted to new end mills, is a lot of end mills. Even more, if you value your time at skilled labor rates.... and if you do the Quorn well, you are surely skilled labor.

But, the Quorn won't sharpen a 4" milling cutter (for horizontal mill) at all, at least as far as I can see..... Since the cost of just a few of THOSE cutters can easily exceed the cost of the Quorn, it would make sense to spend the effort IF IT COULD SHARPEN THEM.... but THAT it is NOT designed to do.

On the other hand, a T& C grinder that CAN sharpen those milling cutters can ALSO sharpen end mills. Possibly a holder similar to the "improved" Quorn or glenn Wilson's etc would make it easier to do small ones well, but it is do-able anyway.

So, does the Quorn make ANY sense except as a sort of "coming of age" project, after which one can claim membership as a true "grumpy old f**t", qualified to shut up the young pups with a glare?

John Stevenson
09-09-2006, 11:09 AM
I also totally fail to see the point of the Quorn.

It is a huge amount of trouble to make, more of a pilgrimage than a project (or possibly a martyrdom).


So, does the Quorn make ANY sense except as a sort of "coming of age" project, after which one can claim membership as a true "grumpy old f**t", qualified to shut up the young pups with a glare?

No JT because I'm reaching that stage now and I haven't built a Quorn, and not going to.

I think it can be summed up into the fact we all have different avenues of interests which generate tooling problems for that sphere.
The Quorn will do a lot of the small work easier than big T&C grinders so it falls into a niche market.

Some of the others don't do flutes, only ends so this appeals to others.

Whatever choice I have found that a T&C grinder is the hardest machine to own and tool up.
Unless you are satisfied with only doing ends of slot or end mills then that's fine but as soon as you want ball nosed, tapered, dovetail etc etc then you are making rests, adaptors bushes etc, etc.

No one machine out there is going to do 100% of the cutters the average guy wants without a large machine or a lot of ingenuity.

This is one example where chequebook engineering won't work unless you are the one guy who's managed to buy a T&C grinder of a firm closing down and got the 78,897 cabinets of tooling to go with it.

JC Hannum is going to now tell us he got 42,569 cabinets, sorry JC, no cigar, you need the whole 78,897.

I have a full size T&C grinder with ouddles of attachments. It can grind planer blades, razor blades, callouses, finger nails and the odd end mill but it's a pig to setup.
So I bought one of these, thinking they would be handy for the odd cutter.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/42409.jpg

Guess what?

It can't sharpen end mills.
I'll leave you to work out why.

.

Millman
09-09-2006, 11:14 AM
Oh, now, just grind them all by hand and save yourself money to buy other toys.

lazlo
09-09-2006, 12:51 PM
Okay, back to Lanes request for the Stent drawings.........

The Stent design is pretty straightforward -- as Norm indicated it's a copy of the Clarkson T&C Grinder. I love this design -- the Mark 3 version looks like a miniature Cincinnati Number 2:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/clarkson/


Lane started me on this 'witch hunt' for the 'perfect' T&C fixture.

I've been in a similar quest for the "perfect" T&C Grinder (or at least, one that's worth spending several hundred hours building). The problem with the Stent is that you really need castings for the base and x-y table. As I've often lamented here and on the Quorn Owners group, Blackgates charges a very reasonable the price for the Stent castings: £169.55, plus another £16.00 for the plans = £185.00.

The problem is that they charge £110 for shipping to the US -- that's $207 USD for shipping ~ 40 pounds of castings!!!

From speaking with the owners at Blackgates, it sounds like a little "Mom and Pop" shop run out of tiny shop between Bradford and Leeds. Hemingway is a much more professional operation, and shipping for their kits is much less by comparison.


he's not aware yet of my now having in my possession a fine set of drawings, courtesy of Frank (lazlo) and Norm,

I've been called a lot of things, but never "Frank." I'm "Robert" :o


this led to a discussion of his Darex 90 features and being sorta limited to doing end mills

That's true -- the Darex E90 and the Cuttermaster HDT-30 (and the Glenn Wilson T&C, which is modeled off of them) have fixed wheelheads and toolholders which can't be tilted, which makes it difficult to grind the complex end clearance on lathe-tool bits. The Cuttermaster and the Wilson T&C grinder compensate by allowing the angle of the wheelhead to be elevated, but it still can't can't grind the taper on reamers, or taps, dies, slitting saws, side & face cutters, like the other T&C grinders can.

lazlo
09-09-2006, 01:10 PM
Some of the others don't do flutes, only ends so this appeals to others.
...
Unless you are satisfied with only doing ends of slot or end mills then that's fine but as soon as you want ball nosed, tapered, dovetail etc etc then you are making rests, adaptors bushes etc, etc.
...
So I bought one of these, thinking they would be handy for the odd cutter.
Guess what?
It can't sharpen end mills.

Yeah, that's the Chinese copy of the Deckel/Alexander SO grinder. It's meant to grind single lip cutters. With the double swivel holder on the SO version you can grind an angle or radius or both and then add clearance to it. But no flutes.

JCHannum
09-09-2006, 01:38 PM
Actually, I only have the one cabinet in the base of the machine, and it is not nearly full. My air spindle is in a separate box, and a small mag chuck resides on a shelf in the storage room.

I can do end mills, lathe tools, drills, reamers and probably a few different configurations of milling cutters and saws. That is all I really need to do for my shop.

Once you have an idea of what is involved in T&C grinding, a lot of it can be done with a few simple fixtures. This is why I recommend getting a few books, or John's CD on T&C grinding and reading up on what is involved first and then setting about finding a machine that will suit your needs and tooling it.

Since getting my KO Lee grinder, I have bought & sold seveal others as well as a couple of the Delta, or Rockwell Delta Toolmaker T&C grinders. These have all sold under $500.00, and at that price make it kind of senseless to spend the time and money involved in the casting sets for the Quorn, Stent and other T&C kits. You can buy a much more capable machine for less.

I can do light surface grinding on my KO Lee, and the Rockwell machines are better suited for that. If room permits, one of these or a small surface grinder will be a much more useful machine in the shop. If space is a problem, you can do a lot worse than the Glenn Wilson machine.

John Stevenson
09-09-2006, 03:25 PM
Yeah, that's the Chinese copy of the Deckel/Alexander SO grinder. It's meant to grind single lip cutters. With the double swivel holder on the SO version you can grind an angle or radius or both and then add clearance to it. But no flutes.

True Lazlo but these machines or Chinese copies are spring up all over advertised as tool and cutter grinders, not single lip grinders, which probably wouldn't mean anything to most people.

The correct answer is that when you tilt the head back to the clearance angle, a bit more than in the picture, you need to grind the tooth nearest to the operator but run into the opposite tooth.

So you tilt forward to the clearance angle and address the tooth away from you, simple ? Wrong, when you tilt forward the locking lever hits the bed bar at about 7 degrees.
Guessing this as there are no negative angles on the block.
Added to this as you tilt forward you get closer to the wheel and so you are limited to cutters with less than an inch long exposed.

It can do flutes by swinging the collet assembly round thru 90 degrees to the front and using the end of the wheel and a follower finger.

So far it does work up to short 1/2" cutters.
If I fitted a shallower wheel it would help but the bed bar needs expending [ casting end in the way] or the vertical pivot needs a new casting where the vertical pivot is behind the horizontal one to give more clearance.
The locking lever also needs to be altered.

Another alternative is to fit the whole collet holder setup on the other T&C grinder making it more versatile and selling what's left as brand new but robbed on Ebay.

.

lazlo
09-09-2006, 03:48 PM
True Lazlo but these machines or Chinese copies are spring up all over advertised as tool and cutter grinders, not single lip grinders, which probably wouldn't mean anything to most people.


Well, put another way, the Deck grinder was meant to sharpen engraving bits for the Deckel GK21 engraver, and not as an end mill sharpener.



when you tilt forward the locking lever hits the bed bar at about 7 degrees.
...
Added to this as you tilt forward you get closer to the wheel and so you are limited to cutters with less than an inch long exposed.


Would it help if you replaced the locking levers with screws? The original Deckel SO has screws to hold the Omniversal head, and not locking levers, probably for this exact reason:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/deckel/img35.gif

The other issue is that the Deckel has a lot of clearance underneath the wheel head so you can contort the Omniversal head in different positions, bu the Chinese copy puts a back support wall there, which removes a lot of manuevering space for the toolholder.

lane
09-09-2006, 11:08 PM
O I love the bloody BRITISH If it werent for them we would not be here!And they talk funny.

Timleech
09-10-2006, 03:35 AM
All this talk of T & C grinders, there's one question I would like an answer to.
Is there a useful drill grinding/sharpening attachment available, either ready made or plans to make? I'm looking for something to use on a T&C grinder, maybe a bit better made than the mickey mouse affairs sold to use with a bench grinder but less complex/expensive than, say, the Clarkson type. Those can fetch as much as a decent used drill grinding machine!

Tim

Charles Ping
09-10-2006, 03:47 AM
O I love the bloody BRITISH If it werent for them we would not be here!And they talk funny.

If it wasn't for the British someone would be in North America for sure - as they were before we landed on Plymouth Rock.
Maybe they wouldn't speak English though.


Charles

Alistair Hosie
09-10-2006, 06:13 AM
Hey get your facts right the British don't talk funny the English talk funny:D wee scoats are awe richt at tokin and I sit down to pee all the time:D Well not all the time" I stand in the street to wee wee" :DAlistair

John Stevenson
09-10-2006, 06:18 AM
Tim.
Take a look here for a bit of a jig to do 4 facet drills.
I did have another link but can't find it.
MEW and ME has a lot of articles on four facet drill sharpening and they do cut better than the normal curved shape

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/DrillSharp.html#Four%20Facet

.

lazlo
09-10-2006, 11:21 AM
Is there a useful drill grinding/sharpening attachment available, either ready made or plans to make? I'm looking for something to use on a T&C grinder, maybe a bit better made than the mickey mouse affairs sold to use with a bench grinder but less complex/expensive than, say, the Clarkson type.

Tim,

John Moran ("GagetBuilder") has a fantastic run-down of the various drill sharpening attachments you can build here:

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/DrillSharp.html

Short answer: no one sharpening jig works for all drill sizes, and all tip patterns (traditional curved, 2 facet, 3 facet, and now 4 facet).

Cheers,

Robert

Edit: Sorry John, I just saw your post on the previous page with a link to John Moran's 4-facet sharpener. I was going
to delete this post, but the link above describes John's adventure through many drill sharpening attachments, before
he go to the 4-facet design, so I'm going to leave it up...

lazlo
09-10-2006, 11:27 AM
So explain again why the Quorn is so superior..... and why a person simply MUST go to the trouble of making one...

At the risk of insulting everyone here who has made a Quorn (including most of our English colleagues :D)...

There's a joke about the Quorn that shows up on rec.arts.metalworking from time to time:

You always see the Quorn either as castings that are "seasoning" under someone's workbench, or under a glass case,
but you never see a used Quorn :p

JCHannum
09-10-2006, 01:29 PM
I might as well mention that Walter Mueller also contributed two sets of articles to Home Shop Machinist detailing inprovements to the Quorn T&C fixture that added an air spindle as well as simplifying the set up procedure and eliminating some of the fiddly-ness of it.

They might be worth exploring if an existing Quorn exists.

lazlo
09-10-2006, 01:46 PM
Walter Mueller also contributed two sets of articles to Home Shop Machinist detailing inprovements to the Quorn T&C fixture that added an air spindle as well as simplifying the set up procedure and eliminating some of the fiddly-ness of it.


Thanks JC -- I just looked it up on the HSM article database, and Walter did two series:

Additions to the Quorn Tool and Cutter Grinder April/June 1998
Very Much Improved Quorn Tool and Cutter Grinder October 1999 - April 2000

I have the January/February and April/May 2000 issues, but I'll have to try to find the 1998 and 1999 issues...

John Stevenson
09-10-2006, 02:24 PM
The Tormach is nice, I installed machine #2 here in the UK and got to play with it for a while.

The main thing is it's built to a US design AS a CNC machine and not a conversion of a manual machine.
Such things as Turcite slides and pressure oiling make it stand out above the conversions as does the mass of the machine.
Weighing in at a genuine 1/2 a ton for a desktop machine gives a lot if rigidity.

As you say with the X3 for $800 what do you expect? You certainly get a lot for it and for some that's enough, for others that $800 is the starting price of a kit.
These machines are being built to a price hence the cheesy bolts but as time moves on and feedback gets to the factory things do alter.
In the UK these Seig machines are sold by many dealers, some large some small.
We have one called Machine Mart, like your Harbour Freight. They buy the small table, small column model for as cheap as possible.
If you complain about quality they just shrug it off, they sell that many they aren't bothered and they don't give feed back to the factory.

The guy I do work for goes to the factory, he tells them and shows them problems and gets a better quality machine, longer table, taller column and better finished.
Still got the cheesy bolts but he swaps them in the UK.
He also runs a strip, clean and replace policy for an extra sum.
You have a choice on price, in the box or checked over.
It works out that 30% choose in the box and 70% go for the checked over machine.
So the old addage of only getting what you pay for still applies.

As I posted above, I built a Dore Westbury many years ago and was pleased with what I had.
Am I pleased I went this route ? yes I am but I wouldn't take that route today.

Times move on though.

.

J Tiers
09-10-2006, 09:05 PM
I'm an engineer, so the way my brain works, any design can be improved... :)

Yep, I sure hate looking at my old designs...... I start realizing what I shoulda done....... Bad when that was last week......


As far as the Quorn et al, About any standard T&C will sharpen expensive tools like helical milling cutters, etc. The Quorn will not, without changing it until it pretty muc isn't a Quorn.

For little things, probably so. I just don't have many, but I have plenty bigger cutters that would cost a lot to replace.

OK, radiused corners, yea, now special tooling is required.

But for a standard end mill, at today's prices, the catalog is the way to go.


I can understand the old days of just a lathe, not even a drill. After you had bought a Myford, you were surely stone out of money! :D

In that case, using everything up makes sense. The Quorn does do end mills, and probably reamers etc, fine, especially if you have lots of time, and are happy to do anything at all out in the shop.

lane
09-10-2006, 09:17 PM
QOURN STENT Kennet Tinker and what ever else is out their all Small but nice tool crinders for what they were designed for . The home shop guy with no money and lots of play time. I have a K.O.Lee 6-18 hyg . surface grinder +a Darax E-90 end mill sharpner 3 bench grinders with custom tool rest for lathe tools. I wont a home made commercial tool grinder I guess I will have to design and build it my self something like this.http://gromax-usa.com/grinder/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610 THANKS Norman A , Sir John S , Bill , JC hannan Lazlo ,and all others.http://gromax-usa.com/grinders/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610 Sorry the first link dont work

lazlo
09-10-2006, 09:51 PM
Walter Mueller also contributed two sets of articles to Home Shop Machinist detailing inprovements to the Quorn T&C fixture that added an air spindle as well as simplifying the set up procedure and eliminating some of the fiddly-ness of it.

I have was about to grab several of the remaining issues off of Ebay, when I noticed that the (new?) Projects 8 has the complete set of Walter's Quorn improvement articles in it.

Surprisingly, the HSM Store doesn't have the table of contents for Project 8 listed, but I was able to find it on OhoJim's Ebay auction here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260028173682

lazlo
09-10-2006, 09:54 PM
I guess I will have to design and build it my self something like this.http://gromax-usa.com/grinders/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610

Lane,

If you take a look through the Brooks article I sent Bill: the "Stent without Castings" -- it's almost an identical design to the Chinese (Gromax, Chevalier, Enco) clone of the little K.O. Lee benchtop T&C grinder.

The Brook's casting-less design has a traditional x-y table like the Gromax, where the Blackgates castings have an L-shaped x-y table like the original Clarkson grinder.

Cheers,

Robert

lane
09-10-2006, 10:32 PM
[QUOTE=lazlo]Lane,

If you take a look through the Brooks article I sent Bill: the "Stent without Castings" -- it's almost an identical design to the Chinese (Gromax, Chevalier, Enco) clone of the little K.O. Lee benchtop T&C grinder.

The Brook's casting-less design has a traditional x-y table like the Gromax, where the Blackgates castings have an L-shaped x-y table like the original Clarkson grinder.

Cheers,

Robert[/Q
Yes been studing the drawings The design is their but think I will enlarge it to a 6-18 table with 12 inch by 6 inch travel and a 3 in colum.

dp
09-11-2006, 02:15 AM
QOURN STENT Kennet Tinker and what ever else is out their all Small but nice tool crinders for what they were designed for . The home shop guy with no money and lots of play time. I have a K.O.Lee 6-18 hyg . surface grinder +a Darax E-90 end mill sharpner 3 bench grinders with custom tool rest for lathe tools. I wont a home made commercial tool grinder I guess I will have to design and build it my self something like this.http://gromax-usa.com/grinder/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610 THANKS Norman A , Sir John S , Bill , JC hannan Lazlo ,and all others.http://gromax-usa.com/grinders/cutter/tool-grinder.htm#gt610 Sorry the first link dont work

I am prepared to pay $10.00 American for anyone's hated grinder, be it Qourn, Stent, Tinker, what ever. And have been for years. Nobody hates what they have enough to sell for $10.00. Wonder why?

wbleeker
09-11-2006, 04:16 AM
I know the poms get all the good stuff and I also know it is a bloody good place! And I am going back as soon as possible! and I will get to visit John next time!I just would like to know how to get the good stuff to my place for the right price? (did you geet my email John, that I couldn't get there in July, may be there in March or June next year, will email)
As an American born Aussie (feb 61 moved to AUS in Sept. 61 but with 9 US aunties and uncles) I reckon ENGLAND is one helluva place to have a look at and I will be going back to have another look very soon, I have of course been to my homeland USA and will also be going there again ASAP, my 20 yo daughter wants to go to Disneyland!, My mother was born in Alberta Canada so I will have to also go there and have a look, and also to Holland where my father and his family came from, bloody complicated isn't it.
ENGLAND RULES as far as this hobby is concerned.
Will

lazlo
09-11-2006, 11:14 AM
Yah, your problem is you are not chinese.
...
If you were, you could get anything hauled to any customer for peanuts...

LOL!!! :D I've often wondered how the Chinese can afford to make 150 lb lab grade surface plates that sell through the usual suspects for $60.

I'm pretty sure the exorbitant shipping is a Blackgates issues, and not a UK issue -- as I mentioned earlier, Hemingway charges a lot less for shipping their castings to the US.

Are the Blackgates/Stent castings available in Australia? For some reason (taxes/tarrifs, I presume), shipping from Australia to the US is a fraction of the cost of shipping from the UK to the US.

Timleech
09-11-2006, 12:46 PM
So I bought one of these, thinking they would be handy for the odd cutter.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/42409.jpg



.

John

I see that RDG are including a twist drill attachment.
What does it consist of?

Tim

J Tiers
09-11-2006, 12:57 PM
LOL!!! :D I've often wondered how the Chinese can afford to make 150 lb lab grade surface plates that sell through the usual suspects for $60.


And that's no error.....

It costs MORE to ship the plate FROM Grizzly, Enco, or whoever TO YOU, INSIDE THE US, than it does to do ALL OF the following:

Quarry the granite (in china)
Move it to the factory
Saw, Grind and lap the flat to spec
Package it
Ship it to the port
Load it in the container
Load that on the ship (in china)
move it and the ship to the US port
Unload it from the ship (in the US)
Ship it to Grizzly, Enco, or whoever
Stock it in the proper place in the warehouse
Label and prepare it for shipping

Of course, your cost INCLUDES the US portions of the above, so the china part of it is way less, could easily be $15 or $20 for all the stuff up to loading the ship.

When it costs more to move it that last bit, from Griz, Enco, or whoever, to you, than it does to do all the stuff above, there is a problem. A serious problem.

It may actually cost as much as double the purchase cost to ship, depending, more likely shipping is a little more than equal to the cost, so you may pay 2 to 3 x the cost, total, delivered.

And don't talk processing fees..... it is a weight-based cost. If it were the same exact size, and weighed just enough less to go via UPS, it would be far cheaper to ship.

Don't talk fuel costs...... The same size box if a bit lighter fills the truck the same amount, and those trucks get the same mileage loaded a few pounds more or a few pounds less.... which your granite flat or a lighter box does not materially affect.

Brother, the above is true, but it is a lot of BS even so..... Either we are stupid expensive, or they are NOT charging the true costs.

John Stevenson
09-11-2006, 05:29 PM
John

I see that RDG are including a twist drill attachment.
What does it consist of?

Tim

Tim,
I got all the extra's with this but not looked at some of them yet.
I think the drill grinding jig is a bit like the general one, general as in brand.
These is a holder for lathe tools and one for flute grinding.
Might be a couple more but not certain.
I also ordered about 4 or 5 wheel arbors to save changing over.

.