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View Full Version : PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, WD-40



rotate
09-15-2006, 04:33 PM
Do any of these REALLY help to loosen rusted fasteners (e.g. rusted bold on suspension parts)? Has anyone really tried to test these products?

I have no doubt that it will making removal of the fastener easier once it's loose, but does it actually help to get it unstuck?

If they do indeed work, then are any of these better than others for that purpose?

I have people telling me, spray that stuff on and let it soak overnight, and I usually roll my eyes.

I think Myth Busters should do an episode on this.

jimmstruk
09-15-2006, 05:05 PM
Yes, my experience is that Pblaster is a very good product. I have tried several products over the years and PB works. By the way I do mechanical work on trucks, so have tried many brands. JIM

gzig5
09-15-2006, 05:12 PM
I think Kroil is probably the best penetrant product. I haven't run across anything that it hasn't worked on yet. Never tried PB Blaster.

JCHannum
09-15-2006, 05:18 PM
I have never used PB blaster, but do use Liquid Wrench and Kroil. They are both good penetrating oils, and will loosen rusted fasteners.

WD40 is less a penetrant and more a preservative and water displacer. It will work as a penetrating oil, as will diesel, and kerosene, but I find Liquid Wrench and Kroil better.

Overnight will work on light rust, several weeks may be needed for heavier rust. In severe cases, nothing will work.

J Tiers
09-15-2006, 05:29 PM
P Blaster has worked for me.

WD has not

Liquid wrench has not worked very well.

pcarpenter
09-15-2006, 05:45 PM
I have used all three even since I was turned on to Kroil many years ago. My father was...ummmm... loaned some by someone at his employer and we used it to unfreeze all 6 pistons in an engine block that had water standing in the cylinders for decades. The key is to keep the pieces wet and give it time to work its way in....sometimes hours or days and not minutes. I still have some of the others around, but consistently reach for Kroil as it penetrates better than anything else I have used. I have this theory that you tend to fill the voids with whatever you use first and that tends to reduce the effectiveness of the other things you may apply, making me want to use what has been most successful from the get-go.

I use it mixed with a popular bore cleaner for cleaning rifle bores. It became pretty popular with many of the benchrest shooters for this purpose. Given a bit of time, it seems to even penetrate under the lead and copper that galls its way onto the bore surface, improving the performance of the bore solvent.

montanasoftware
09-15-2006, 05:51 PM
I've had good experience with PBlaster -- better than WD40 or Liquid wrench.

Never used Kroil, but I've heard other people over at the Jeep forum say its good.

IOWOLF
09-15-2006, 06:06 PM
Kroil has my vote for spot nut busting, however wd 40 is cheap in the gallon cans and some things need soaked in the stuff and at 4 to 5 times the $ useing Kroil would be nuts.

Wirecutter
09-15-2006, 07:44 PM
Since it smells so much like kerosene, I suspect that Liquid Wrench is actually largely kerosene. I find it very handy as a lube for tapping into aluminum.

-Mark

George Seal
09-15-2006, 08:20 PM
Oil of Wintergreen from the drug store works as does Brake fluid

CCWKen
09-15-2006, 08:23 PM
Plain ole diesel dipped out of the tractor tank. No fancy labels or canned parfume needed. ;) I've brought a lot of equipment and antique tools back to life with it.

ProGunOne
09-15-2006, 08:45 PM
I've used all of the above mentioned over the years and would rate them as follows:

1) Kroil
2) PB Blaster
3) Liquid Wrench
4) WD40

I buy the Kroil by the gallon for personal use. I'm also a heavy equipment mechanic and use the PB Blaster daily on the job. It goes fast in our shop as most guys grab it and stash a can or two away when the boss buys it. Got him to buy the spray cans of Kroils once. Being restricted to a budget, he buys the WD40 mostly for the cost saving factor. PB Is pretty good in my opinion but is a bit pricey in comparison with the last three.

wierdscience
09-15-2006, 09:02 PM
I'm with Ken,the only reason I buy wd-40,is because they don't sell diesel in a spray can,or do they?:rolleyes:

jkilroy
09-15-2006, 09:14 PM
PB Blaster is great, and can be easily and cheaply had at Autozone. Get it in the gallon cans with the spray bottle, good stuff.

deltap
09-15-2006, 09:16 PM
I vote for PB. All penetrants take time. Here is how to speed the removal. Bring nut to red heat with smoke wrench. Throw water on while red or let cool some and use penetrating oil or just motor oil. The heat expansion makes enough gap for the penetrant to work all the way through. If still too tight impact wrench back and forth. The hammering action almost always loosens nut. Last resort wash off sides of nut almost down to threads with cutting torch and knock off with cold chisel. Fasteners installed with blue loctite come off easily as water does not penetrate the threads. Do not reuse fasteners for critical applications that have been "heat treated" in such a mammer.

menace
09-15-2006, 11:06 PM
I had 35 yrs operating and repairing heavy equipment, and PB blaster gets the vote, with WD40 following in price and availability! If I had to soak anything I'd squirt some 0w20 synthetic motor oil, same stuff I use as spindle oil, on whatever, and it would find it's way in and penetrate as well as the named stuff!
There used to be something from CRC called 5-56 that I haven't seen in years that worked great, especially when sprayed on after the hot wrench, it was non -flammable and didn't smell to bad! Probably toxic as all hell! Cappillary action would suck it right through the other side if you kept some heat on it! Wonder what happened to it?

Steve
I should mention that I've never used Kroil, but will note others favourable review, and try to remember to buy some!

BadDog
09-15-2006, 11:54 PM
WD stands for "Water Displacing" and is a very poor pentrating oil in my experience. Works well for soaked ignitions though...

Kroil is the best I've ever used, but hard to get.

PB is easy to get and works well. It is always on my shelf, but doesn't work as well as Kroil.

Liquid Wrench never seemed to work well for me, so I haven't used any of it in years.

lazlo
09-16-2006, 12:13 AM
P Blaster has worked for me.
WD has not
Liquid wrench has not worked very well.

Ditto for me. One other to add:

Sea Foam Deep Creep works better than Liquid Wrench, but not as good as PBlaster.

Kroil is supposedly half ATF and half lacquer thinner. Haven't tried it myself...

Evan
09-16-2006, 01:45 AM
WD-40 is just stoddard solvent and light mineral oil plus some nonvolatile paraffinic oil about the same weight as kerosene. It's in the MSDS.

Mike W
09-16-2006, 02:21 AM
I tried to remove the arbor in an old brake drum lathe for two weeks using PB and etc, etc. I finally got some dry ice and cooled it for about one hour. I then warmed up the spindle with oxy/act. It came out. I also had it under tension.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tek798/One/dryice.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tek798/One/arbor.jpg

JRouche
09-16-2006, 02:38 AM
Olive oil thinned 50/50 with trichloroethane,,,works well and is reusable for chicken marinade...JRouche

madman
09-16-2006, 04:04 AM
Ive had great success with the Kroil .

IOWOLF
09-16-2006, 07:22 AM
Evan ,your so good, give us the home brew for Kroil.

Kaferhaus
09-16-2006, 08:57 AM
Kroil works great for me, and I've used it on things that nothing else worked on.

But, it aint cheap. Fortunately, I don't need it often.

JCHannum
09-16-2006, 09:08 AM
Evan ,your so good, give us the home brew for Kroil.

Here is the MSDS for Kroil;
https://secure.cnchost.com/kanolabs.com/msds_pdf/Kroil_Liquid.pdf

And the MSDS for WD40;
http://www.wd40.com/Brands/pdfs/msds-wd40_bulk.us.pdf

I doubt you will get rich by using either to duplicate them, or combining them to produce your own super gonzo penetrating, water displacing all in one goodstuff oil.

MSDS' tell little more than what is needed for medical treatment if misused or ingested and emergency response for handling a spill or fire. They offer little information as to the actual makeup of a material.

Evan
09-16-2006, 09:37 AM
MSDS' tell little more than what is needed for medical treatment if misused or ingested and emergency response for handling a spill or fire. They offer little information as to the actual makeup of a material.

That is frequently true, at least at first glance. However, a little research will often reveal what the components are as they must give the CAS numbers for many materials.

For WD-40 it says:



Chemical Name CAS Number %
Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates 8052-41-3 45-50
Petroleum Base Oil 64742-65-0 30-35
LVP Hydrocarbon Fluid 64742-47-8 12-18
Non-hazardous Ingredients ‹ 10

Right away they give away the fact that Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates is Stoddard solvent



Threshold Limit Value Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates (Stoddard Solvent) lowest TLV (ACGIH 100 ppm.)


Then a quick search on CAS 64742-65-0 reveals:



Plus FF
Solvent refined nuetral paraffinic Oil
CAS Number: 64742-65-0



That's mineral oil.

Then a slightly deeper search reveals that CAS 64742-47-8 is a product by Exxon-Mobile called Isopar N.



Isopar is the brandname for our range of isoparaffinic fluids. Isopar fluids are manufactured under special conditions to ensure batch-to-batch uniformity and to eliminate unwanted impurities, such as aromatics, unsaturated olefins and reactive polar compounds.

These are fluids that are mineral oils refined to eliminate virtually all volatile aromatic compounds. They are used as "stretchers" to help products meet VOC limits. This product comes in a range of viscosities depending on what you need it for. It is equivalent to highly refined kerosene that doesn't evaporate and is nearly odorless, basically the same as "odorless" lamp oil.

I haven't looked up the Kroil yet.

Orrin
09-16-2006, 09:41 AM
I have PB, Kroil, Liquid Wrench and WD-40 on hand. PB gets used most of the time over all the rest. I had been using Kroil for the really stubborn jobs, but when I heard about PB I switched and have never looked back.

I keep Liquid Wrench around for old time's sake. When I was a kid it was the only show in town.

I can't understand the almost universal appeal of WD-40. Call me old-fashioned if you want, but for the jobs that so many people use it for, I usually have a cheaper and more effective product on hand (usually kerosene or good ol' lube oil) that will do the trick better. I keep it on hand for its original purpose, but that's the only reason.

Orrin

lazlo
09-16-2006, 09:55 AM
Has anyone ever found Kroil available locally?

JCHannum
09-16-2006, 10:10 AM
Kroil is frequently carried in gun shops. Maybe not the box stores, but a real gun store.

There three very important parts missing in MSDS and CAS numbers. One is that proprietary materials need not be identified as to contents, the second that proportions are given only in the vaguest of terms and the third is that no information is given as to the process involved in compounding the materials to produce the product.

Evan
09-16-2006, 10:42 AM
If they don't identify the proprietary materials then they must be unlisted. That means they must be essentially harmless inert materials such as dyes or perfumes.

I looked up Kroil.




Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates 64742-52-5
30-50%
Light Petroleum Distillates 64742-95-6/64742-88-7/64742-47-8 30-50%
Aliphatic Alcohols 78-92-2/123-42-2 1-5%
Glycol Ether 111-76-2 1-5%
Proprietary Ingredients 5-15%


Turns out to be:
64742-52-5 Petroleum based lubricating oil
78-92-2 2-Butanol (an alcohol, Ethyl Methyl Carbinol, used as perfume)
123-42-2 Diacetone alcohol (laquer thinner)
64742-95-6 Naptha (white gas)
64742-88-7 kerosene
64742-47-8 Deodorized kerosene
111-76-2 Glycol Ether (ethylene glycol antifreeze)

I suspect the "magic" ingredient is the antifreeze.

Boucher
09-16-2006, 11:15 AM
PB is good and avaliable at the auto parts. I purchase Kroil directly from the web site by the gallon. It is also turning up at our NAPA in small cans and the Spray cans. Not as fast but good penetration is mixture of Diesel or Kerosene and light oil. We have used this to free up 2" pitch chain on drilling rigs. Mix it up in a 3 gal sprayer and wet surface and soak overnight. Most rollers are free the next day.

Tap magic has worked as good or better on a couple of tough applications recently. I just grabbed it because it was within reach. I don't know how it will stand up but I intend to try it to see. I had some left over for a long time. Have been using it for cutting oil in drilling operations and it works as good or better than the old dark cutting oil.

rsr911
09-16-2006, 11:17 AM
I make my own version of WD-40 at work, not so much for penetrating as for water displacement and temporary rust prevention, I also use it for aluminum on the lathe. My car requires 13 quarts 0f 20w50 per oil change and I change it every 3000 so I save it. I mix the used motor oil with toluene and naptha which we have on hand. I use about 1/3 of each. It's important to note that I work around solvents a lot and necessary safety precautions are always followed. For a home shop I'd either minimize or remove the toluene and replace with either more naptha or kerosene. I sprayed some equipment framework that needed to be stored outside over the winter and it did a great job preventing rust. I just used one of those engine degreaser sprayers to apply it.

Recently I used Kroil as a penetrate and found it worked very well. I've never had any real luck with WD-40 as a penetrate.

HTRN
09-16-2006, 01:29 PM
Has anyone ever found Kroil available locally?

Yeah, but I have local MSC and Grainger.

I buy it by the gallon.

Ditto on the gunshops, particularly if they cater to target shooters.


HTRN

rotate
09-16-2006, 01:33 PM
Thanks for all the great responses and sharing your experience.

I'm still wondering though, what's the mechanism of action with these products. Is it just their ability to seep into tight places and lubricate the parts? Surely, none of these products actually loosen the rust from the mating parts.

rsr911
09-16-2006, 01:40 PM
Thanks for all the great responses and sharing your experience.

I'm still wondering though, what's the mechanism of action with these products. Is it just their ability to seep into tight places and lubricate the parts? Surely, none of these products actually loosen the rust from the mating parts.

If I had to guess I suppose the weaken the adhesion of the rust as well as lubricate but I could be totally wrong.

Evan
09-16-2006, 02:55 PM
Muriatic acid with a touch of liquid soap will actually sneak in and dissolve the rust. It attacks steel too but it attacks iron oxides much faster. It won't do any noticable damage to steel in a few hours but will make a difference to the rust. It isn't something you want to get on pretty surfaces and you don't want to leave it for a long time, like overnight. Wash well with water and a bit of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize.

lazlo
09-16-2006, 03:22 PM
I'm still wondering though, what's the mechanism of action with these products. Is it just their ability to seep into tight places and lubricate the parts? Surely, none of these products actually loosen the rust from the mating parts.

It's just oil mixed with a solvent.

KyMike
09-16-2006, 06:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>Since it smells so much like kerosene, I suspect that Liquid Wrench is actually largely kerosene. I find it very handy as a lube for tapping into aluminum.

-Mark<<<<




There used to be a company that analyzed samples of commonly available home and automotive chemicals and published the formulas, mainly for those that wanted to start their own buisness making specialty chemical products. I can remember seeing their ads in old issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics. I found the one for Liquid Wrench recently, and they said it was crude liquid coal tar which contained a considerable quantity of naphthalene. This information goes back to the mid 1960's and its possible that they have changed the formula since then. I used to use Liquid Wrench but never thought it was very effective.

Also tried a sample of Kroil and wasn't that impressed, but then again the rusted parts I tried it on may have been rusted to the point where no chemical method would have worked. Anyway Kroil is not easy to buy, at least if you want to pay by check or money order. It appears from their internet site that they only take credit cards.

WD-40 in my experience is almost worthless for loosening rust. I have tried a 50-50 mix of transmission fluid and lacquer thinner which works fairly well, although ordinary brake fluid (the old-fashioned type that takes paint off) seems to work just about as well. In general I think penetrating oils are overrated, though sometimes they work.

Mike

miker
09-16-2006, 06:52 PM
Evan, (Muriatic acid with a touch of liquid soap ) is the liquid soap used as a "Wetting Agent"? I add a little liquid soap for a wetting agent to herbicide when spraying.

Rgds

Evan
09-16-2006, 07:36 PM
Yep. The soap reduces the surface tension and allows it to penetrate

JCHannum
09-16-2006, 09:11 PM
If they don't identify the proprietary materials then they must be unlisted. That means they must be essentially harmless inert materials such as dyes or perfumes.

I looked up Kroil.



Turns out to be:
64742-52-5 Petroleum based lubricating oil
78-92-2 2-Butanol (an alcohol, Ethyl Methyl Carbinol, used as perfume)
123-42-2 Diacetone alcohol (laquer thinner)
64742-95-6 Naptha (white gas)
64742-88-7 kerosene
64742-47-8 Deodorized kerosene
111-76-2 Glycol Ether (ethylene glycol antifreeze)

I suspect the "magic" ingredient is the antifreeze.

The proprietary ingredients are listed as a black box. The Kroil MSDS you quote is an excellent example. The 10-15% possibly is the "magic ingredient.

MSDS are not intended to reveal the composition of a material or reveal the manufacturer's formula. They are only to assist emergency response people in dealing with medical, spill, fire or other emergency situations involving the material.

If the product contains a compound submix of the manufacturer's own manufacture, it can be considered to be proprietary and the materials involved in it's manufacture do not need to be identified. If it changes or adds it's own dangers to the final product, those properties must be identified and procedures for dealing with them must be included in the MSDS.

For instance, a product can be 90% water and 10% proprietary material. It may be a poison. The make up of the material is not required, but an antidote for the poison and handling of a spill or fire involving it is.

Evan
09-16-2006, 10:05 PM
If the product contains a compound submix of the manufacturer's own manufacture, it can be considered to be proprietary and the materials involved in it's manufacture do not need to be identified. If it changes or adds it's own dangers to the final product, those properties must be identified and procedures for dealing with them must be included in the MSDS.



The claim of a "trade secret" can be supported (key point; more below).
The MSDS states that the specific chemical identity is being withheld as a trade secret.
The properties and effects of the hazardous (http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/hazardous.html) chemical (http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/chemical.html), including the PEL (http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/pel.html), TLV (http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/tlv.html), or other designated exposure limit, is disclosed in the MSDS.
The specific chemical identity is made immediately available to a treating physician or nurse in an emergency situation or to the physician, nurse, employee or designated representative under certain non-emergency situations; see Paragraph i(3) (http://www.ilpi.com/msds/osha/1910_1200.html#1910.1200%28i%29%283%29) for detailed information.
Note item 3. If no information is given in regards TLV etc then the proprietary material must be non-hazardous which generally means inert.

JCHannum
09-16-2006, 10:16 PM
That is exactly what I said without going into all the double talk that is involved in defining trade secret or proprietary material.

The material does not need to be identified except on a need to know basis and there is a procedure that must be gone through to prevent unauthorized access to the information. It is not available to the general public.

Simply because a material has no hazardous properties does not mean that is may not play an important part in the effectiveness of the final product. It simply means that it is not a carcinogen or does not pose other problems.

rsr911
09-16-2006, 10:29 PM
Yep. The soap reduces the surface tension and allows it to penetrate

Yep soap is a surfactant.

Evan
09-16-2006, 10:33 PM
Note item 2. If it merely says "proprietary ingredients" and not withheld as trade secret then it is usually just BS. It's likely the proprietary ingredient(s) is probably emulsified water or something equally harmless.

It's pretty hard to find an active ingredient that doesn't have some sort of hazard attached.

ProGunOne
09-16-2006, 11:54 PM
Olive oil thinned 50/50 with trichloroethane,,,works well and is reusable for chicken marinade...JRouche


:D :D I'll have to try that, the marinade that is.

ProGunOne
09-17-2006, 12:01 AM
I bought a gallon when I placed my last order from Midway:


http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=267736

menace
09-17-2006, 01:31 AM
From looking at the link I see that kroil is expensive!!! I'd like to get a small amount for my home shop. I know WD40s not the best, but it smells good, and leaves a residue that helps prevent future rust, and works good when milling aluminum! I don't think any of us will find a genie in a bottle or can for any one specific use! I have multiple mixes of cutting oils, misting sprays, and penetrating oils. When I get the can of Kroil it'll go next to the others, and it's effectiveness will determine how close to the front of the rack it eventually ends up sitting!!

Steve

JCHannum
09-17-2006, 09:38 AM
Note item 2. If it merely says "proprietary ingredients" and not withheld as trade secret then it is usually just BS. It's likely the proprietary ingredient(s) is probably emulsified water or something equally harmless.

It's pretty hard to find an active ingredient that doesn't have some sort of hazard attached.

That is not necessarily true. Many consumer products use the same materials from manufacturer to manufacturer. It is the manner in which a given manufacturer prepares these materials that make his product unique. The secondary treatment or sub mix is considered as a proprietary ingredient or trade secret and can be identified as that in MSDS information.

The material may or may not present a hazard. If a hazard is presented, it (the hazard) must be identified and appropriate precautions included.

The language may have changed somewhat since I was directly involved in this, but the basic intent remains the same; to prevent the divulging of the manufacturers process or product while providing the information needed for emergency response personell.

While individual manufacturers are responsible for the preparation of their MSDS', they are subject to audit and BS is not permitted. They must provide the required information and definitions of materials.

Evan
09-17-2006, 10:21 AM
BS is not permitted in respect of active ingredients. However since inert ingredients are allowed to be omitted from the MSDS they can be stated as "proprietary" without further explanation.

If it were possible to include active ingredients within the "proprietary" label without giving further information on the MSDS then manufacturers would simply declare the entire formula proprietary.

It is very common to describe ingredients using terms that obfuscate and even exaggerate the nature of the chemical. For instance, the term "severely hydrotreated" is the same as "highly refined" but "severely hydrotreated" sounds more powerful and difficult to perform. There is plenty of room for BS on a MSDS without breaking the regulations. It is permissible to identify a chemical by any of the accepted synonyms which makes it less obvious what it is. For instance, an acceptable synonym for ethanol is 1-hydroxyethane.

The proprietary label is a form of BS as it is usually intended to give the impression that there is something else included which matters that they aren't revealing. This is to give the impression you can't duplicate the product without knowing what it is. It isn't against the regulations to label something proprietary if it doesn't need to be disclosed in the first place.

The regulations are quite specific.
From:
The OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (HCS)
(Subpart Z, Toxic and Hazardous Substances, 29 CFR 1910.1200)


(i)(1)(i)
The claim that the information withheld is a trade secret can be supported;
(i)(1)(ii)
Information contained in the material safety data sheet concerning the properties and effects of the hazardous chemical is disclosed;
(i)(1)(iii)
The material safety data sheet indicates that the specific chemical identity is being withheld as a trade secret; and,
(i)(1)(iv)
The specific chemical identity is made available to health professionals, employees, and designated representatives in accordance with the applicable provisions of this paragraph.


Withholding information as a trade secret is extremely difficult and requires separate application for each state the product MSDS is published in.

Example, Massachusetts:



(a) In order to make a trade secret claim pursuant to this section, a manufacturer or other preparer of an MSDS must submit to the commissioner of DPH a duplicate of the MSDS which excludes the information claimed as a trade secret, and shall also submit a complete justification and statement of the grounds on which the information is claimed to be a trade secret, at the same time he provides the MSDS to DEP pursuant to section sixteen. Provided that said complete justification and statement of the grounds shall not be required to include the information claimed to be a trade secret.
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/111f-5.htm




Further, the manufacturer must also provide a 24/7 service to provide the needed information for medical reasons.

As well, if trade secret information is withheld on an MSDS it must state by whose authority it is withheld, usually the appropriate state agency.

Todd Tolhurst
09-17-2006, 10:27 AM
It is permissible to identify a chemical by any of the accepted synonyms which makes it less obvious what it is.

"Oxidane" is a nice synonym too.

Evan
09-17-2006, 10:43 AM
Haven't heard that one. Dihydrogen monoxide is good.

I had to go through a bunch of training on hazmat identification and WHMIS (Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System). This is the Canadian training and I required certification when I worked for Xerox.

JCHannum
09-17-2006, 02:08 PM
BS is not permitted in respect of active ingredients. However since inert ingredients are allowed to be omitted from the MSDS they can be stated as "proprietary" without further explanation.

If it were possible to include active ingredients within the "proprietary" label without giving further information on the MSDS then manufacturers would simply declare the entire formula proprietary.

It is very common to describe ingredients using terms that obfuscate and even exaggerate the nature of the chemical. For instance, the term "severely hydrotreated" is the same as "highly refined" but "severely hydrotreated" sounds more powerful and difficult to perform. There is plenty of room for BS on a MSDS without breaking the regulations. It is permissible to identify a chemical by any of the accepted synonyms which makes it less obvious what it is. For instance, an acceptable synonym for ethanol is 1-hydroxyethane.

The proprietary label is a form of BS as it is usually intended to give the impression that there is something else included which matters that they aren't revealing. This is to give the impression you can't duplicate the product without knowing what it is. It isn't against the regulations to label something proprietary if it doesn't need to be disclosed in the first place.

The regulations are quite specific.
From:
The OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (HCS)
(Subpart Z, Toxic and Hazardous Substances, 29 CFR 1910.1200)


Withholding information as a trade secret is extremely difficult and requires separate application for each state the product MSDS is published in.

Example, Massachusetts:




Further, the manufacturer must also provide a 24/7 service to provide the needed information for medical reasons.

As well, if trade secret information is withheld on an MSDS it must state by whose authority it is withheld, usually the appropriate state agency.

This all merely echoes what I have already stated. To be considered a proprietary ingredient or a trade secret, the material generally must be manufactured by the manufacturer himself as a separate step or process and added as a discrete material. The purpose of using the CAS numbers is to eliminate the tendancy to obfuscate.

Inert ingredients and proprietary ingredients are not necessarily the same. An inert ingredient may or may not be proprietary, a proprietary ingredient may or may not be inert. As I have stated, if a proprietary ingredient presents a hazard, that hazard must be identified.

Evan
09-17-2006, 02:34 PM
Inert ingredients and proprietary ingredients are not necessarily the same. An inert ingredient may or may not be proprietary, a proprietary ingredient may or may not be inert.

I didn't say that. However, if the proprietary ingredient isn't futher explained or identified as a trade secret on the MSDS it isn't a trade secret and it isn't likely an active ingredient.

lazlo
09-17-2006, 04:52 PM
Damn, you guys love to argue useless trivia :)
Evan should be the Poster Boy for Google...

This is the weekend -- don't you have some cool metalworking project that needs attention? :p


Back on topic: I had a bolt seized on my milling machine table, so I mixed up a batch of that home-brew
pentrating oil I posted early: 1/2 ATF, 1/2 Lacquer Thinner.

Stuff works great! It seems to work just as well as PBlaster...

JCHannum
09-17-2006, 05:05 PM
All ingredients must be identified if they propose a HAZMAT hazard. The origin makes no difference.

The listing of the materials in the make up of a proprietary ingredient or trade secret is not necessary. They are identified as such to prevent bootlegging of the material, which is why merely reading the MSDS or CAS information on a material will not present the information to needed to duplicate the material. It will merely reveal the generic chemical names of the components in the product and their hazards.

Simply because an ingredient poses no HAZMAT problems is no reason to infer that it is not an active ingredient and has no effect on the performance of the finished product.

IOWOLF
09-17-2006, 06:03 PM
Perfect, where is my measuring cup and pots and pans.

Evan
09-17-2006, 06:44 PM
HAZMAT materials and materials with threshold limit values (TLV) for exposure are not the same thing. Powdered copper for instance is not a HAZMAT material but has a low TLV and must be declared if a product contains it. It cannot be hidden in the term "proprietary ingredients" simply because it isn't considered a hazardous material without further information being given on the MSDS.

HAZMAT materials comprise a rather short list of substances while those with TLV limits are extremely numerous.

While it is not necessary to list the ingredients in a proprietary portion of a product on an MSDS it is necessary to indicate any TLV associated with them. If none is listed then it must be assumed that there is no limit for exposure to the ingredients in a proprietary compound. This would only be satisfied by inert ingredients.

JCHannum
09-17-2006, 09:22 PM
While it is not necessary to list the ingredients in a proprietary portion of a product on an MSDS it is necessary to indicate any TLV associated with them. If none is listed then it must be assumed that there is no limit for exposure to the ingredients in a proprietary compound. This would only be satisfied by inert ingredients.

That is almost correct, and it is exactly what I have been saying. It is required to list any potential hazards the material might have. Health issues are only part of the hazards covered by MSDS, reactivity, flammability and other physical dangers must also be spelled out if they exist. Still, the part the material plays in the function of the end product cannot be inferred simply from this information.

Evan
09-17-2006, 09:26 PM
In a product such a Kroil it is highly unlikely that an unreactive, non flammable, non toxic material or combination of such with no TLV of exposure contributes to the products effectiveness.

JCHannum
09-17-2006, 09:39 PM
That is nothing more than an assumption. We all know the value of them.

Evan
09-17-2006, 09:49 PM
That is nothing more than an assumption. We all know the value of them.

I see. So all assumptions are automatically incorrect regardless of the foundation for making them. I assume that is what you mean. If not then please explain.

speedsport
09-17-2006, 10:09 PM
just what exactly is stoddard solvent?

cmiller231
09-17-2006, 10:10 PM
I use wd 40 for maching alum. and it works great for starting diesels.
Chris

JCHannum
09-17-2006, 10:16 PM
You are making an assumption about my statement about assumptions. Is that like a double negative?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/assumption

An assumption is the act taking for granted, or supposing a thing without proof; a supposition or an unwarrantable claim.

It is the thing supposed; a postulate or a proposition assumed; a supposition.

cmiller231
09-17-2006, 10:29 PM
I heard tha there is a pentrant that is used with magna fluxing that is susposed to work good for rusty bolts. Has any body tried this ?
Chris

speedy
09-17-2006, 11:15 PM
Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python sketch "the argument":D
http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm

Diesel (cheap), kerosene(ditto) and for those special jobs Mouse Milk penetrating oil (freeby) (http://www.mousemilk.com/msds.html) works good for me.
The gas axe as a last first resort.

TGTool
09-18-2006, 12:02 AM
There was a guy selling a penetrating oil product at Iron Fever a couple years ago that nobody has mentioned. I didn't buy any so I can't compare, but what's anyone's experience with Farty Arty's Nut Buster? SOMEBODY must have bought a can.

Jan

lazlo
09-18-2006, 12:22 AM
just what exactly is stoddard solvent?

Stoddard Solvent is mineral spirits.

Mineral spirits are a less powerful solvent than acetone, but the formula sounds very similar
to the 1/2 ATF + 1/2 Solvent (lacquer thinner or mineral spirits) that I tried this afternoon
(and worked well!).

I'd be willing to bet that ATF + Acetone would work even better, since Acetone is even
stronger than lacquer thinner.

lazlo
09-18-2006, 12:24 AM
Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python sketch "the argument":D
http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm

Man, you're not kidding -- it's Monty Python's "The Argument" with "Web Knowledge" (what an oxymoron! :) )

Arcane
09-18-2006, 01:20 AM
Has anybody tried CRC Industries "Screwloose" or Wynn's "Nut Buster"?
http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cgi-bin/ryderfp/products/product_detail.jsp?oid=47982
http://www.wynns.ca/pages/english/e_products_x-shop.html

LarryinLV
09-18-2006, 11:01 AM
Arcane: I used to be married to one of those.

I think the real key to using any penetrating oil is to apply some heat to the bottom end if you can before using the oil. This speeds up the capillary action and reduces time significantly. I'm too impatient to wait a couple of days.

Evan
09-18-2006, 11:34 AM
with "Web Knowledge" (what an oxymoron!)

So, I take it that you don't think that anything posted on a website can possibly be accurate.

lazlo
09-18-2006, 06:14 PM
So, I take it that you don't think that anything posted on a website can possibly be accurate.

No, but citing web references is largely useless, because you can find a webpage on the Internet to support any claim, no matter how inane:

The World is Flat:
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Ancient Egyptian machinery 500 times faster than modern power drills!
http://www.beforeus.com/

...

Google is not a substitue for knowledge.

Evan
09-18-2006, 06:48 PM
No, but citing web references is largely useless, because you can find a webpage on the Internet to support any claim, no matter how inane:
The same applies to any source of information. I don't expect you would use the Weekly World News as a reliable printed source.

Intelligent people can usually sort out what is likely to be accurate and what isn't.



Google is not a substitue for knowledge.

Google has nothing to do with it. The internet is the worlds largest library and like any library it contains both fiction and nonfiction, good and bad. It just isn't always labled.

jimmstruk
09-18-2006, 07:20 PM
Arcane. you asked about CRC screwloose. I have used it then bought some ultra?screwloose, neither were of much use, actually very poor product. Have not tried the Wynns so no comment JIM

lazlo
09-19-2006, 08:37 PM
Google has nothing to do with it. The internet is the worlds largest library and like any library it contains both fiction and nonfiction, good and bad.

There's a big difference Evan -- the Signal to Noise ratio on the Internet is much lower than printed material.

Books, magazines, and newspapers are read and reviewed by editors,
publishers, and in most cases legal staff. So there's a least some
basis for credibility.

But anyone can publish anything they please on the Internet.

This is how you end up with people mutilating themselves following "Do It Yourself" circumcision directions posted on the web, blowing themselves up with home-made artillery from the 'Web, ...

Evan
09-19-2006, 09:23 PM
The fact that there is a lot of trash on the net does not decrease the value of the reliable information any more than selling the Weekly World News beside the New York Times does. It doesn't even make it harder to find in most cases. So what if there is a lot of garbage? The valuable and correct information is still there and in large quantities on nearly any subject. It not usually difficult to discern what is accurate. This particularly applies to pure technical data, specifications, regulations, law, policy and similar information.

People can also publish whatever they please in print. You don't have to buy it though and it's just as easy to ignore a web page of nonsense. The internet is only a reflection of society at large, mostly. It has the same characteristics as the people that contribute to it. Because of that it actually represents a segment of society with a higher average level of intelligence and income than the world mean. It has always been advisable to filter information by way of critical thinking no matter the source.

lazlo
09-19-2006, 10:02 PM
The fact that there is a lot of trash on the net does not decrease the value of the reliable information any more than selling the Weekly World News beside the New York Times does. It doesn't even make it harder to find in most cases.


Well apparently you have a hard time distinguishing the garbage Evan. I included that "Ancient Egyptian Machinist" link because you were quoting that junk on PM.

Someone asked a question about the flammability of glue-lam, and you posted a report that was written by a producer of glue-lam for the expressed purpose of convincing several asian countries to lift the flammablility ban on glue-lam.

See a pattern here?

When someone asks a question about a topic you know nothing about, you run off, Google some random crap, and post it back. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it not, but for folks that are new here or on PM, don't know that you just spend hours every day pouring through random Google links, apparently often at the response of some question posted here or on PM.


it actually represents a segment of society with a higher average level of intelligence and income than the world mean.

Evan, I'm sorry, but spending an extreme amount of time surfing the 'Web doesn't mean you have higher than average intelligence. It just means you're eccentric.

a1g2r3i
09-19-2006, 10:16 PM
Oil of Wintergreen from the drug store works as does Brake fluid
as a UNEF soldier mechanic in 1962 I used varasol and brake fluid 50/50 overnight on leaf spring U bolt nuts. It worked great.
Once on a threaded 4 inch cast iron sewer cleanout after brasing a hex nut and heating it I used w d 40 and 120 ft lb with a torque wrench being held in position with a jack while I wailed the tar out of it with a large ball peen hammer to loosen it. Having scribed scratch marks on adjacent surfaces, after a good while I saw the scratch lines part company under this constant torque and shock blows.

Evan
09-19-2006, 10:41 PM
Evan, I'm sorry, but spending an extreme amount of time surfing the 'Web doesn't mean you have higher than average intelligence. It just means you're eccentric.

It means you have a computer and at least know how to turn it on. That is more than the majority of the population of the planet. I wasn't speaking in specific terms. It also implies a certain level of education which also implies a higher than average level of intelligence, average being the world mean.

I happen to have specific knowledge of gluelam from making gluelam structures myself. As to the post about ancient Egypt it was to illustrate that the techniques of making stone flat were well known a long time ago. It does not mean I susbscribe to the other nonsense on that site. The stones are extremely flat. This does not mean they were cut by a laser, it means they are flat.

I use Google to confim information that I already know for the most part and to find specifics on data such as material strengths. It is also useful to find supporting references to show that what I say is not just a personal opinion.

topgun
09-19-2006, 11:17 PM
I've had semi tires that would not budge with every thing we had in the shop
a bystander said to use Coke or Pepsi and let it set overnight, tried it and the tire just fell off of the rim:

rsr911
09-19-2006, 11:30 PM
The fact that there is a lot of trash on the net does not decrease the value of the reliable information any more than selling the Weekly World News beside the New York Times does.


Please don't tell me you consider the New York Times to be anything more than a tabloid. :D

Back on topic, I find that a hot wrench works 100% of the time to remove rusted fasteners. :) Of course is sometimes removes more than just the fastener but your mileage may vary. :D

EDMTech
09-19-2006, 11:32 PM
Well I'm a little late in this thread, and I'm not reading through every page to see if it has been mentioned, but GM (yes, General Motors) makes/markets a product that most GM dealer parts departments sell that absolutely kicks butt! I forget what they call it, but I used it frequently when I worked in dealerships and IMO it was better than PB Blast. A little pricey at around $10 per can, but when one or two sprays does what half a can of other penetrants can do, price doesn't matter.

If I can find the name of this stuff I'll post it, who knows, they probably buy it from someone else and sell it for 2x what other sell it for.