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View Full Version : Sad day at the scrapyard.



wierdscience
09-15-2006, 10:03 PM
I am depressed,saw what was a perfectly good Cresent 24" bandsaw and Old Delta Rockwell wood lathe smashed to bits.People do stupid things to old machines.
Shame to,the saw was the old style with the cast iron doors and direct drive motor.The wood lathe was sitting on the factory cast iron leg base,not to easy to find one like it now.

The only things I could save were the Headstock and the outboard turning base.The saw not even the guides were spared,all trashed.

Bill Pace
09-15-2006, 11:34 PM
It can be depressing to go to scrap yard sometimes and see stuff like that. (thankfully not often)

I went yesterday thinking , just maybe??, I might find a 2hp (or so) 3ph motor, you never know what you'll see. So as I'm driving in, look out the window and see a pile of motors, stop, get out and WHOA!! ----2 pallets/skids with 15-18 3ph motors--bout 5-6 of them still in NEW wrappings. Quickly spotted a 2hp 1750rpm that I glommed on--not new but really clean and an obvious take out as all of them appeared to be. Ranged from 2hp to 10hp all sizes.

Went to pay and told price was 50cents lb, so my motor was $18!! (That tells you how scrap prices have gone up) Have ckd motor out and works fine. (Think I'm gonna variable speed my lathe)

By today, the 2 skids had probably made it to the crusher and met the fate of the saw and lathe....what a shame.

lane
09-15-2006, 11:54 PM
Out with the old in with the new.

Evan
09-16-2006, 01:31 AM
We (society) really can't afford to do that. Nothing is easier to recycle than a machine that still works for the job it is intended to do.

madman
09-16-2006, 04:05 AM
We are not allowed into any scrapyard anymore. Insurance Regulations they say. Very Sad Indeed.

Millman
09-16-2006, 04:42 AM
WS, that's what we get for getting into the CNC mentality. Even people on this forum think they are doing the right thing by promoting strictly CNC behavior and knowledge of computers and G-Codes. One day they will find out society will have to conform to the days without CAD, CAM, CNC, and will happen in the next war. Society thrives on the knowledge of the Comm9n..,m;;;;llkk[[[[[[[[[[[p;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;lkkkkkkkk kkkkkkkkkkjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj;lllllllllllll;';kkkjjjj jjoiiiiipppppl;l[pl[pl

dhammer
09-16-2006, 04:56 AM
It is amazing what people throw away. A few years ago I was scrounging around in my favorite local scrapyard when two tractor/trailers pull up to the scale. The two trucks were loaded with old 2 cylinder John Deere tractor parts. If I had my wits about me and enough money in my wallet Iwould have bought the whole works.

DR
09-16-2006, 08:17 AM
Yeah, I know how it feels to see good stuff go to the crusher.

On the other hand I've been in the position of trying to get rid of not needed/wanted machinery.

In my last experience I posted on a local site the item for free, just come and get it soon, but bring help 'cause it'll take two guys at least to load. I get about 10 responses, they all want it "for sure".

Note: this item had a market value of around $500, since I wanted it gone quickly rather than trying to sell it the giveaway seemed quickest/surest. It had been given to me a number of years ago by a customer. I'd used it and certainly gotten my "money" out of it. Thought it'd be nice to pass it on to someone else. This was not junk, a functioning machine tool.

Long story-short...talk is cheap. All those guys who definitely wanted the item had reasons why it'd be at least a "couple" weeks before they could come over to pick it up, "busy doing jobs for the wife", "truck's broken down right now", "bad back", and so on.

So I scrapped it. It wasn't worth my time to try and beg these guys to come get something they all wanted.

BTW, I'm dreading the process of getting rid of my fully functioning Hardinge DSMA automatic. We dont' use it much anymore and need the shop space. This one'll need a fork lift to move. Bet I won't be able to give that away either!!!

PTSideshow
09-16-2006, 09:31 AM
with all the shop closings in the Detroit metro area. The machines are beings sold in whole shop sales to scrap yards at scrap prices. Down the end of the street I live on there are7 empty small shops. With in less than a mile of my house there are 8 or nine more that have gone out of biz in the last year.
Johnson controls made seats down the road. They closed the plant on the Memorial day week end. By the next weekend the plant was cleaned out. Seems most of the equipment was leased.
One of the local scrap dealers said he gave up saving the machines no matter how good because he seems to get a better one in the next day or week. And he can't get much above scrap prices for them.
Fords just said they are going to get rid of 45,000 people they are pushing the big deal they are giving buy outs. What they are saying to loudly is that over half of them are contract people both white and blue collar. No buy outs for them. and also the number of people in the small shops will probally hit about half again the numbers.
More machines, nobody to buy them. :(

nheng
09-16-2006, 09:35 AM
One well placed EMP pulse and probably 99.9% of the CNC equipment out there will be sent "back to the stone age".

There is NO testing of EMP on any commercial or industrial equipment that I know of except for maybe those that must be rad hardened to begin with.

It will be up to HSM'ers with their old, manual machines to save the world ;)

For some the hardest part of dealing with the next war may be that their cell phones and blackberries no longer work. We as a country are going to have to live through some hard times before we re-learn what our parents knew. On a partial RANT here after dealing with some imported product issues last night. Take the imports off the shelves of your Walmarts, Home Depots, Loews, etc. and the shelves would be BARE. US commerce screeches to a halt ... or does it soar like an eagle ... hard to soar without manufacturing though. RANT off.

Den

HTRN
09-16-2006, 11:37 AM
One well placed EMP pulse and probably 99.9% of the CNC equipment out there will be sent "back to the stone age".

The normal method for generating a large EMP pulse is to detonate a large thermonuclear weapon.

Somehow, I don't see vintage southbends surviving the blast.:D

Most "drawings"(actually computer files) are stored on computers, and sent to the jobshops via email. Believe what you like, but it's the CNC shops that make money, and the manual shops that have been going out of business the last 20 years. They simply can't compete.

To give you an example, The first shop I worked at, was originally a manual shop, that completely converted to CNC. Right now, there are only the 3 owners working there. When they're father ran the business, it was all manual, and they had better than 30 machinists in the place. Now 2 gus running 5 Haas VMC's outproduce what those thirty did, and make stuff that's all but impossible with manual equipment.

Hell, a Haas Toolroom Mill costs just a little more than what a barebones BP did right before they went under.

CNC is here to stay.


HTRN

Ries
09-16-2006, 12:01 PM
Bridgeport didnt "go under".
You can still buy a brand new Bridgeport-
http://www.bpt.com/index.asp?pageID=63&prodID=56
About 14 grand, made (largely, anyway,) in Elmira New York.

Where I live used machine tools are as rare as hens teeth, so you dont see many being scrapped.
But you dont see many guys making a living on old manual machines, either.

There used to be a machine shop over in Anacortes, that had a few huge old machines- but they actually made much more money fixing VW's.
Meanwhile, I can think of several small shops around here with a couple of CNC machines that are doing quite well.

As far as the EMP goes- ONE? I kinda doubt it. Worst case scenario is that every single bomb the russians had, when they all actually worked, would have taken out less than 10% of the US land mass.

Nope, like it or not, CNC is here to stay.

HWooldridge
09-16-2006, 12:20 PM
The trouble with giving stuff away for free is that most people assume it has no value. I had an old truck that I wanted gone - it was nothing but a rusting hulk with several parts missing. I spent good hard cash advertising it in the paper with lots of calls but no takers. I then let it sit another six months and put it in the paper again at $500, two weeks later it was gone - but he had to "work" me down to $300...;-)

HTRN
09-16-2006, 01:39 PM
Bridgeport didnt "go under".
You can still buy a brand new Bridgeport-
http://www.bpt.com/index.asp?pageID=63&prodID=56
About 14 grand, made (largely, anyway,) in Elmira New York.

Bridgeport machine tools did indeed go under. Hardinge purchased the company.

Relavent bit: The Series I Standard is built by Hardinge Inc. in our factory in Elmira, New York.


Bridgeport as a company is gone. they went bankrupt. Also, I'm wondering if that's actually a new machine, as an awful lot of the old machine tool builders are buying back good condition machines, rebuilding them, and selling them as new - I know Monarch and Leblond are doing it, And I think Southbend is as well. They may simply be buying up clean Series 1's, going through them and fixing what's necessary, and putting a new coat of paint on them.


HTRN

TECHSHOP
09-16-2006, 02:22 PM
Around here most of the shops have gone CNC, often when the "new owners" take over after the "old man" passes on. I see alot of "good/nice" manual machines getting scrapped after the owner's widow/children are "insulted" by the "too low offers" of the HMS types. I think that this has been discussed in a recent thread. Most of the scrap yards here won't let anything back out the gates, liability concerns. The age of steam. steel, and coal is only about two centuries years old; the "world" that oil, plastic, and computers have created is younger still. The ages of stone, wood, and leather have been, by far, the longest in our history. All this is not really a great concern of mine as to which the future will be, because in the "long run" we are all dead.

Scishopguy
09-16-2006, 02:53 PM
It is true that CNC has taken over the trade but mainly in production shops. I think that there will always be a need for manual machines as long as there are job shops doing "one offs" to fix broken stuff or doing custom mods to off the shelf parts. It is not cost effective to have to sit and write a program when you can make the part in less time.

BTW, it does not take a thermonuclear blast to send out destructive EMP. The military have emp generators that they can deploy on aircraft to take out command and control in combat areas. My brother saw this demonstrated by the navy about 20 years ago when they did a demonstration 60 miles off Mayport Florida. They announced that they would do the demo at noon on a certain day. At noon on the day in question his commodore 64, fax machine, answering machine, and the 12" monitor hooked to the system went "toastie."

HTRN
09-16-2006, 03:06 PM
Even one off stuff is becoming CNC, unless it's very simple. If a customer emails you a file, you can turn it into gcode fast, and knock it out fast. Most of the places you still see making money with manual equipment are rebuild shops, like Hydraulic cylinder shops, where CNC isn't really appropriate.


HTRN

nheng
09-16-2006, 05:02 PM
As far as the EMP goes- ONE? I kinda doubt it. Worst case scenario is that every single bomb the russians had, when they all actually worked, would have taken out less than 10% of the US land mass.

Nope, like it or not, CNC is here to stay.

In the late 90's a congressional report indicated that the Russians and Chinese considered the EMP as the "weapon" of choice. The primary intent of a nuke attack would be to take out our electronic systems, power grid, etc., and not the conventional damage considered in the past.

And I couldn't agree more that CNC is here to stay (and evolve, of course). We couldn't send our prints to shops that were strictly manual anymore. The results would take too long and cost too much. Then there's the human factor ;) And if the work is small, that complicates it further.

Evan
09-16-2006, 05:37 PM
Even one off stuff is becoming CNC, unless it's very simple. If a customer emails you a file, you can turn it into gcode fast, and knock it out fast. Most of the places you still see making money with manual equipment are rebuild shops, like Hydraulic cylinder shops, where CNC isn't really appropriate.



We have maybe ten machine shops here including some fair sized ones. They are all manual equipment. There is no way that CNC would be usable when somebody brings in a 30" sheave like I saw one of the guys working on the other day. They wanted .030" taken off the OD of the ribs because it was bottoming in the poly vee belt.

Nearly every job is different although they do some production too. Even that is always custom work such as building wood handling equipment for a new mill or an upgrade. The only CNC I know about in those shops is a CNC flame cutter. It only runs canned programs like circles and rectangles.

John Stevenson
09-16-2006, 07:20 PM
In many cases it's not always down to whether the CNC is capable but wheter the operator is competant.
Evans example of taking 30 thou off a sheave isn't a machine relayed question but an operator question.
As by his post they don't have any CNC's then it's not a fair test.

As many know I do a lot of motor repairs, many are shaft buildups that require a new keyway milling in.

I do some on the manual Bridgy but most are done on the CNC in half or even a quarter the time, for a simple 10mm wide keyway, why ?

Well the CNC always knows where the fixed vise jaw is, it also knows what tool to use and it's diameter. This means it can automatically go to the centre of the shaft given the shaft diameter.

All I need to do is put the shaft in the vise, move from the zero point half the diameter, jog to the start of the keyway, touch the tool onto the work press Control F6 to set the offset, 'G' to go home, enter the length of the keyway and press go.
I don't need to know the depth of the keyway, any tolerances, the only figure I need to know is the nominal width and length.

.

wierdscience
09-16-2006, 07:36 PM
Evan's example is a prefect reason CNC is not the end all be all of machine tools.Simple fact is,it took longer to set the job up than it did to make the cut.Operator or not,that pulley still had to be chucked up and indicated,prolly reverse the chuck jaws too.Once that was done it probibly took all of ten minutes to make the cut,CNC would have saved,maybe 1 minute,assuming the CNC operator knew how to use and indicator:rolleyes:

They are great for one off complicated parts,or multiples,but would you chuck up that 5" od 12 foot long boat shaft you just welded up to save a little time re-machining it?

wierdscience
09-16-2006, 07:42 PM
The trashing of that bandsaw and woodlathe were stupid for one primary factor.They were worth money,wood working equipment brings more money than metal working equipment,replace a few bearings,meg the motor,clean and paint and that saw would have fetched $1500-1800,the lathe probibly $800-1,000.

I would have been more than happy to pay $500 for the pair before they went to pieces.

Too_Many_Tools
09-17-2006, 12:54 AM
One well placed EMP pulse and probably 99.9% of the CNC equipment out there will be sent "back to the stone age".

There is NO testing of EMP on any commercial or industrial equipment that I know of except for maybe those that must be rad hardened to begin with.

It will be up to HSM'ers with their old, manual machines to save the world ;)

For some the hardest part of dealing with the next war may be that their cell phones and blackberries no longer work. We as a country are going to have to live through some hard times before we re-learn what our parents knew. On a partial RANT here after dealing with some imported product issues last night. Take the imports off the shelves of your Walmarts, Home Depots, Loews, etc. and the shelves would be BARE. US commerce screeches to a halt ... or does it soar like an eagle ... hard to soar without manufacturing though. RANT off.

Den

"It will be up to HSM'ers with their old, manual machines to save the world ;)"

That would be a neat trick considering the EMP would take out all power generation...including your backup generator sitting in your garage.

If the world is stupid enough to push the button, we all will be too busy looking for that next meal to be worrying about building anything.

All the technology of the last 200-300 years would have to be redone...and much of what is already known would be lost due to the brain trust dying off. With the fact that most people do not live on farms which at least had a chance of being self sufficient, the massive die off would be in the billions.

Again if it happens, we deserve the consequences for allowing it to occur

TMT

PhilR
09-17-2006, 10:59 AM
The company I work for sent a big horrizontal boring mill to the scrap. It was in perfect mechanical shape, no wear on the ways. It didn't see much use in its life since the electronics were too expensive to fix. Sad day when they took a torch to the 2" ballscews and tore the machine down. I made sure the servo motors didn't go to scrap, could be used for a windmill once they decide they don't want them hanging around the shop anymore.

HTRN
09-17-2006, 11:31 AM
Horizontal boring mills, and Big Vertical lathes, are two machines they're getting ridiculous money for right now, there are a coupla companies that specialize in rebuilding them, and retrofitting them with CNC.

Why didn't your boss put it up on Ebay?


HTRN

Doc Nickel
09-17-2006, 03:37 PM
That would be a neat trick considering the EMP would take out all power generation...including your backup generator sitting in your garage.

-Nope. You're ascribing a bit too much "magic" to an EMP. That or you've watched The Matrix once too many times. :D

What happens in an EM pulse is the radiated power is so high, that currents are induced where currents aren't supposed to be. Like living next to a radio station and picking up broadcasts on your corded telephone. I once heard a trucker's CB- back in the days they still used 'em and some had very powerful amplifiers- on an old electric guitar amplfier. Which, needless to say had no antenna and was not tuned/designed to receive radio signals. Didn't even have a guitar or cable plugged in at the time.

Anyway, the EM pulse from a nuke is so powerful, and so... wide band, for want of a better term (covers such a large range of frequencies) that it induces a current in anything that conducts.

In things like toasters, points-ignition cars and lawn mowers, the induced current does very little or nothing. It's simply dissipated.

The pulse is only a problem with delicate electronics, because the induced current can appear in the wrong places- after voltage regulators, between resistors, etc. Besides which, there's always the tiny processor chips that were designed to work on milliamps and get spiked with thousands of times more. That fries tiny components and the doodad it was in stops working.

It doesn't kill electric motors, it doesn't kill desk lamps, it doesn't kill diesels, it doesn't kill the power lines themselves (which have breakers and fuzes.)

It will kill cell phones, it'll kill PCs, it'll kill embedded processors in cash registers and all sorts of other things... BUT... the other part of that is, an EMP, just like the blast itself, has a limited range. That pesky inverse square law; radiated power is a quarter as intense at twice the distance.

Just like those "bulls eye" charts showing the levels of devastation, there's one for the damage caused by an EMP. Up close, even simple machines are damaged. A little further out, sensitive and unsheilded stuff like cell phones and PCs are destroyed, but older cars and more durable systems are okay or only lightly damaged.

Still further out, very sensitive devices get scrambled, but some things with a modicum of shielding (a metal case, the steel of a car body, etc.) suffer only minor damage.

Out on the fringes, you hear a burst of static while listening to All Things Considered and wonder what that was all about.

The internet, point in fact, was designed to be a distributed communications system specifically to resist or compensate for EMP damage. Yes, a nuke attack will cause damage- even widespread damage the likes of which we've never seen. But it'll hardly "knock us back to the stone age".

Doc.

Too_Many_Tools
09-17-2006, 09:47 PM
-Nope. You're ascribing a bit too much "magic" to an EMP. That or you've watched The Matrix once too many times. :D

What happens in an EM pulse is the radiated power is so high, that currents are induced where currents aren't supposed to be. Like living next to a radio station and picking up broadcasts on your corded telephone. I once heard a trucker's CB- back in the days they still used 'em and some had very powerful amplifiers- on an old electric guitar amplfier. Which, needless to say had no antenna and was not tuned/designed to receive radio signals. Didn't even have a guitar or cable plugged in at the time.

Anyway, the EM pulse from a nuke is so powerful, and so... wide band, for want of a better term (covers such a large range of frequencies) that it induces a current in anything that conducts.

In things like toasters, points-ignition cars and lawn mowers, the induced current does very little or nothing. It's simply dissipated.

The pulse is only a problem with delicate electronics, because the induced current can appear in the wrong places- after voltage regulators, between resistors, etc. Besides which, there's always the tiny processor chips that were designed to work on milliamps and get spiked with thousands of times more. That fries tiny components and the doodad it was in stops working.

It doesn't kill electric motors, it doesn't kill desk lamps, it doesn't kill diesels, it doesn't kill the power lines themselves (which have breakers and fuzes.)

It will kill cell phones, it'll kill PCs, it'll kill embedded processors in cash registers and all sorts of other things... BUT... the other part of that is, an EMP, just like the blast itself, has a limited range. That pesky inverse square law; radiated power is a quarter as intense at twice the distance.

Just like those "bulls eye" charts showing the levels of devastation, there's one for the damage caused by an EMP. Up close, even simple machines are damaged. A little further out, sensitive and unsheilded stuff like cell phones and PCs are destroyed, but older cars and more durable systems are okay or only lightly damaged.

Still further out, very sensitive devices get scrambled, but some things with a modicum of shielding (a metal case, the steel of a car body, etc.) suffer only minor damage.

Out on the fringes, you hear a burst of static while listening to All Things Considered and wonder what that was all about.

The internet, point in fact, was designed to be a distributed communications system specifically to resist or compensate for EMP damage. Yes, a nuke attack will cause damage- even widespread damage the likes of which we've never seen. But it'll hardly "knock us back to the stone age".

Doc.

No, I am aware of what it can do.

Almost all vehicles on the road. rail and in the air today have solid state ignition systems or solid state components in critical systems....all which will be destroyed by an EMP pulse.

If the time comes where this type of warfare is carried out, all major population centers will be affected.

The vast majority of communications will be destroyed...cell, hardwired phone and point to point wireless including ham operations.

One of the bigger issues is the destruction of the monetary system...no access to bank information means no money is moved....so what would you use to buy what food is available with?

The electrical systems are run by unprotected computer systems....when they are gone, the electrical generation stops.

TMT

Doc Nickel
09-17-2006, 11:38 PM
Almost all vehicles on the road. rail and in the air today have solid state ignition systems or solid state components in critical systems....all which will be destroyed by an EMP pulse.

-Again, not quite. Yes, many have solid-state controls, but again, many will be outside the EMP effects- or shielded. Inside a steel building, below the horizon, on the other side of a hill or mountain, etc.


If the time comes where this type of warfare is carried out, all major population centers will be affected.

-Really? Even Butte, Montana, and Redwood, California?

Again, you're giving too much credit to a nuke. Even a major weapon- 20MT or so, which is among the largest in the active US inventory- would "only" destroy about a fifth, by area, of a city like LA.

So what? Just throw more nukes at it? Sure. But the number of weapons we- and they- have is finite. A few hundred active, with perhaps several hundred more available in inventory. I'm guessing about a thousand total, able to be used inside, say, five days. (Lots are in storage, and of those, more than a few need to be rebuilt before use. Any boosted-fission weapons, for example, which is most of 'em right now, need periodic recharges of Tritium, which has a mere 12.5 year half-life. [Half is decayed in 12 years- and it decays into a product that actually reduces the power of the weapon, meaning they need "recharging" in roughly three years or less.])

How many air bases, military bases and political targets do we have in the US? Aren't there something like 400 air bases still? How many hundreds more military bases? You can't target more nukes than you have, and bigger bases will require multiple weapons.

Sure, one nuke would wreck a big chunk of Manhattan- but by no means ALL of it, and the sections of New York on the mainland would be more or less untouched.

Long story short, the problem is targetting, say, a thousand nukes at 10,000 targets (military and city, plus political like DC) plus figuring that many high-value targets will require multiple weapons.

Now, here's your other problem: A weapon needs to detonate high in the atmosphere to maximize EMP. That, of course, minimizes or even eliminates blast damage. Ground or near-ground bursts maximize the blast damage, but on the other hand, minimize EMP effects. (Ionized air forms a split-second EM-opaque "wall", and much of the energy is absorbed. Maxes out the blast, but at the cost of the power of the EM pulse.)

So: More targets than you have individual weapons. Many targets also require multiple weapons. High altitude bursts give EMP effects but no blast damage. So which do you choose, if the desire is to destroy infrastructure?


The vast majority of communications will be destroyed...cell, hardwired phone and point to point wireless including ham operations.

-Hardly. Yes, there will be major disruptions, but even in a major, full-power superpower-level strike (IE, a Russian attack, and not just a couple of weapons lobbed over from North Korea) would destroy less than a quarter of our infrastructure. Large areas would keep both land and cell lines, and assuming the transmitter itself survived, the radio skies would be clear in a few hours, allowing HAM, AM/FM, UHF and VHF, and satellite communications through.

HAM can reach thousands of miles. Why would a nuke or EMP, with a "blast radius" of ten or twelve miles, have any effect, after the blast has dissipated in a few minutes, on two HAM transmitters 600 miles apart?


One of the bigger issues is the destruction of the monetary system...no access to bank information means no money is moved....so what would you use to buy what food is available with?

-Ah, now there's an excellent question. The rest of this is hyperbole and inflated ideas how nukes work- but this is a real issue. Money only works because we think it works, so the question will be whether or not the majority of people see the nuke attack as "the end of the world" or as a Pearl Harbor/Sept. 11, a time when we needed to band together, lick our wounds and strike back.

If the former, chaos ensues in the places out of communication and near enough the blasts to be badly damaged but for people to have survived.

If the latter, there'll still be localized looting and lawlessness, but will eventually settle out. In that case, like after Katrina, money will be largely unneccessary- food and aid will be more or less freely given, we'll worry about getting paid later.


The electrical systems are run by unprotected computer systems....when they are gone, the electrical generation stops.

-First off, I highly doubt they're "unprotected" as you assume. Second, even if they are, so what? This goes back to the "number of weapons vs. number of targets" problem: There's thousands of electrical generating plants in the US. What, over 400 nuke plants, a couple hundred hydroelectric, several hundred coal-fired plants, and so on.

A few key strikes, like the infamous East Coast blackout a few years ago, can "darken" large areas, but losing feed power is a far cry from being "destroyed"

Again, counting military bases, air bases, political targets like Washington DC (which itself would take several nukes) plus strategic targets like NORAD, that missile site in Greely Alaska, the missle bases in the Midwest, all the cities larger than 250,000 people, and about a thousand electrical plants, you have probably 20,000 to 50,000 potential targets. (Don't forget oil refineries, pipelines, major highways and maybe a few morale strikes, like Mt. Rushmore or the Statue of Liberty.)

But you only have a thousand weapons, and at least a third of those need to be tasked as multiple weapons on a single target- like DC, do you target the White House or the Pentagon? Even the Tsar Bomba can't strike both.

Again, you're vastly overestimating the power of a nuke. As I said, yes, such a strike would be devastating, but by no means crippling, and nowhere near "blowing us back to the stone age".

Doc.