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View Full Version : OT: So, what made this?



Evan
10-26-2006, 01:06 AM
I stepped outside one day this summer and looked up, which is the first thing I always do when going outside. I have seen many a contrail over the years. We live below one of the major flyways for traffic to Europe from Vancouver as well as Alaska bound traffic from the US. I have seen contrails from diverse aircraft of many types including such exotic ones as the XB-70 years ago.

I have not however seen an aircraft that blows smoke rings before. I didn't see this aircraft, it had already passed by. All that was visible was this contrail. I took this picture and it has not been doctored in any way.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/contrail1.jpg

halac
10-26-2006, 01:16 AM
Are you sure that's not a sky writing job that's been up long enough to be distorted by the wind? After looking at for awhile I almost see letter patterns.

dp
10-26-2006, 01:17 AM
Looks like typical wing tip vortices along with some structure that is chaotic in nature. They are made visible by condensing the moisture in the air. The vortices cannot form a long tube of rotating air so they form clumps of rotating nodes. Because the vortices interact with the environment and with each other they can form these visual patterns.

lugnut
10-26-2006, 01:17 AM
It appears to me that the plane had a sparkplug wire come of and was doing a lot of missing, coughing and backfiring :D
Mel

John Stevenson
10-26-2006, 04:00 AM
Yup skywriting.

If it's over your house it probably says

http : // www. google . com



.

HTRN
10-26-2006, 04:02 AM
What made it?

I'm guessing a camera made that image.:D


HTRN

SJorgensen
10-26-2006, 05:08 AM
That's definitely an interesting contrail. It would be great to have an expert chime in. I only know a few things about contrails. The air must be near the dew point. The air at the temperature could only hold in vapor form as much as it had. The aircraft caused a lowering of pressure and therefore temperature and caused the water vapor to condense into visible water droplets or fog. Why or how that pattern was the result is a great question. Was there something unusual about the aircraft? Was it a Rutan VariEze?
I'd love to know. Do you know the exact time and place of that photograph?

Bill Pace
10-26-2006, 07:06 AM
Something is niggling in my (poor) memory about a new/recent design engine that produced smoke rings-----on Discovery/Learning ch/Science channel?? Maybe if this stays up a while, someone --with a beter memory-- will tell us about it......

Rustybolt
10-26-2006, 07:28 AM
Something is niggling in my (poor) memory about a new/recent design engine that produced smoke rings-----on Discovery/Learning ch/Science channel?? Maybe if this stays up a while, someone --with a beter memory-- will tell us about it......


Scramjet?


It looks an awful lot like skywriting that's been blown around. How far along the horizon was the trail?

topct
10-26-2006, 07:33 AM
I have seen vapor trails like that before.

But the pattern I see in the sky itself is whats really strange. Anybody else see that?

Your Old Dog
10-26-2006, 08:38 AM
Little doubt in my mind. It's sandscript from sleeper cells. From what I can make out it appears to say "death to anyone who don't agree with us".

Spin Doctor
10-26-2006, 09:00 AM
Aurora, you just didn't have your shutter speed set fast enough. Seriously I have no idea if such an aircraft even exists outside of the minds of the believers but the building of Black Projects has not stopped. Sometimes they lead to dead ends and sometimes they don't. In this case I am guessing a test bed for an advanced form of pulse combustion engine

Evan
10-26-2006, 09:12 AM
The contrail went across the entire sky. Here is the same contrail at the same time taken just to the left of the first shot. We don't have any intentional skywriters around here.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/contrail2.jpg

BillH
10-26-2006, 09:14 AM
Well what I do know for sure is that Evans Digital Rebel camera has a big dust spot on the sensor that needs to be cleaned off.
Otherwise I too would assume it was sky writing thats been up there for awhile.
If it was a scram jet or other super fast flying aircraft, you would of heard a sonic boom.

Evan
10-26-2006, 09:25 AM
Here, I put them together. The tree doesn't quite line up because I moved a bit between shots. Any "pattern" seen in the sky itself is just a result of the jpeg compression.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/contrail3.jpg

snowman
10-26-2006, 09:58 AM
Umm....those are the mind control chemicals. They have figured out that they dont need a steady stream of them...so they pulse them out now. It's to save money.

Ok...now I can return to makin my stylish tin foil hat for the party tonight.

Optics Curmudgeon
10-26-2006, 10:30 AM
Squint a little, and it clearly says "Surrender Dorothy". More seriously (but not much), it's John flying over to drop a house on Evan.

Joe

A.K. Boomer
10-26-2006, 10:40 AM
your mystery craft is using a pulse detonation engine, mystery solved...

pcarpenter
10-26-2006, 10:53 AM
I'd think you'd know it if a pulse jet flew over....they are really noisy.

Our house is about 1.2 miles from the end of the main runway at the local airport. Stuff comes over wheels down, low enough that I can count rivets sometimes:eek:

One thing that I get a kick out of is walking out of my shop seconds after a jet passed over on a calm day and listening to the vortices whistle in the air maybe 20 seconds later. As DP mentioned, they tend to be rather whispy in nature, sounding a bit like someone spinning a rope in the air and switching directions several times.

What do *you* think Evan? You saw it firsthand.

Paul

topct
10-26-2006, 10:54 AM
http://www.goodsky.homestead.com/files/gallery.html

Scroll down a bit and they have a photo showing what it looks like before it starts to break up.

Evan
10-26-2006, 11:29 AM
What do *you* think Evan? You saw it firsthand.
All I saw is what you see in the photos. Whatever made the contrail was at very high altitude judging by the way it appeared stationary in the sky with no obvious drift. It persisted quite a while but that isn't unusual for contrails given the right conditions. I am familiar with vortexes (vorti ?) but haven't seen this effect before.

Even very loud aircraft and sonic booms cannot be heard if they are high enough. The air is too thin.

ulav8r
10-26-2006, 11:40 AM
I am familiar with vortexes (vorti ?) but haven't seen this effect before.

Vortices.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices#searchInput)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/F-15_wingtip_vortices.jpg/300px-F-15_wingtip_vortices.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F-15_wingtip_vortices.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F-15_wingtip_vortices.jpg)
Wingtip vortices stream from an F-15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15) as it disengages from a KC-10 Extender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-10_Extender) following midair refueling.


Wingtip vortices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex) are regions of high vorticity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorticity) which develop at the tip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_tip) of a wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing) as it flies through the air (or potentially another fluid).

lynnl
10-26-2006, 11:45 AM
When I was stationed in NORAD's Cheyenne Mtn complex in the 70's one of our forecasting tasks was the areas favorable for persistent contrails. The main parameter used was the temp., and as I recall the threshold was -43d C.

My guess would be that that contrail was formed right at the marginal boundary of that isotherm (whatever it is... I'm no longer sure of the -43, but it's something close to that). There was probably also significant windshear in that zone as well.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ...til a better one comes along! :)

(edit) What I left unsaid was that I'll bet when that contral was first formed it was continuous.

sch
10-26-2006, 11:59 AM
How about this: http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000E554B-37B4-1C71-84A9809EC588EF21&catID=3&topicID=13
Apparently a process called the Crow instability can do this.

WORMgearster
10-26-2006, 12:15 PM
Yes, Virgina there is EDL and PDE. Pulse detonation technology that is both super sonic and most often not even notice by us mere mortals from 60,000 feet. This picture is most likely first generation PDE. The real cutting edge stuff we would find difficult to see their contrails, because those flights are at night. When you are 60,000 feet @ Mach-6 you will truly find that... "Fugit Irreparabile Tempus" or at lest Virgil thought so.

motomoron
10-26-2006, 12:21 PM
My dad worked with some US Air Force top secret guys through the early 90's
and had heard tales of external combustion engines and the "donuts on a rope" contrail they leave. I thought the Aurora program was finished, but have read recently about some kooky mach 12 SR71 replacement which in fact uses a scramjet or other unconventional propulsion system.

Interesting stuff.

Here's a couple things about some of the opinions expressed thus far.

http://www.aemann.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/donuts/report6.html

http://www.aemann.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aircraft/black/aurora/donut.htm

http://www.extrospection.com/archives/2004/01/the_crow_instability.html

chipeater
10-26-2006, 12:25 PM
Yup skywriting.

If it's over your house it probably says

http : // www. google . com




ROFLMAO! ...

Evan
10-26-2006, 12:32 PM
Heh. It appears that we have a few other Googlers here. :D

The Crow Instability looks like a good bet for explaining it.

In fact, this photo is similar to mine: ( from motomoron)

http://www.extrospection.com/archives/2004/01/the_crow_instability.html

WORMgearster
10-26-2006, 12:38 PM
One would hope that the USAF would have a replacement for the SR-71, before we mothballed the entire fleet... It is amazing if you think about it. The SR-71 was developed in the Early 1960's and maintains today "reported" speed records. Those R&D dollars spent to develop the Black Bird gave us a multitude of product used by us daily including "super alloys" used in the hot turban sections of the engines and now used commercially by most machine shops.

Evan
10-26-2006, 12:45 PM
The SR71 speed record is for jet powered aircraft. The fastest atmospheric piloted aircraft that we know about is/was the X-15. Shame, isn't it? That record is nearly 40 years old at a speed of mach 6.7

J Tiers
10-26-2006, 12:54 PM
BTW.........

Another piece of evidence, or lack thereof, is the fact you made no mention of any noises.......

Out where you are, even high altitude aircraft should make a boom if over the speed of sound. Since you didn't hear one, I would assume the aircraft in question was sub-sonic.

Another fact is that you are under a common flyway.... The very LAST place that anything "interesting" would be flying.....

Evan
10-26-2006, 01:07 PM
The very LAST place that anything "interesting" would be flying.....

That isn't so. They just don't fly at the same altitudes as the commercial traffic. Military stuff does go over from time to time because we are on the way to several places in Canada and the US of interest to the military. More important, we have a VORTAC here that they use for navigation and probably most important, our airport has a 7000 ft runway designed for heavy aircraft. It was originally built as an alternate use airport for the US military in WWII. It still has the isolated bomber parking pads away from the main part of the airport.

302suawdust
10-26-2006, 01:30 PM
No doubt in my mind it was this.

http://gprime.net/video.php/flyinglawnmower

WORMgearster
10-26-2006, 01:32 PM
I might be mistaken Evan, but I had the opportunity to work on a Mach-7 wind tunnel project. During that project some of the information was on the X-43 "Scramjet" powered by the Pegasus Rocket that set the air speed record for rocket powered craft @ Mach-7 in 2003 or 2004 that broke the X-15 record. The X-43 "Scramjet" is also reported to have reached a speed of Mach-10 under a burst from the Pegasus which than the Scramjet maintained that speed for a short time under its own jet power source some time last year. Neither were EDL or PDE driven. Is there a pulse powered craft that is out there leaving suspicious contrails???

Evan
10-26-2006, 01:55 PM
Key word is "piloted". The X-43 test vehicle that NASA is playing with has done mach 10 but it is unmanned. It is also free flying with no remote control.

WORMgearster
10-26-2006, 01:59 PM
I sit corrected. Thanks for the input

Evan
10-26-2006, 02:19 PM
I think it pretty likely that there is something out there faster than is being reported. The question is whether it is manned or unmanned. At those sorts of speeds it is very easy to get behind the aircraft even in simple maneuvers. Computer control would be essential. That being the case why bother with a pilot?

There is one thing to be said for a pilot though. He can make immediate on location decisions based on his own best judgement. A few years ago I was at the Prince George Airshow and they had an F-16 at the show. I had a chance to talk to the pilot and I asked him what educational degrees he held. He replied he had a masters in political science.

If you think about it that makes a lot of sense. There may be many occasions when his good judgement will revolve around making a decision that is correct politically as well as militarily.

WORMgearster
10-26-2006, 02:32 PM
My cohort in crime, "an engineer", was looking over my shoulder and insist that the contrail in your ppicture is from a secret experimental craft code named, "The Lewinsky". It was one of the few military projects fully funded by the Clinton Administration. Fully funded in 1999, the XMSL-1 has a "cigar shape" and it's contrail looks like smoke rings. Its initial design actually started in the Oval office of the White House in November 1995. The first flight test the "Bird" was dubbed "Monica" and exhibited extreme maneuverability and was one of the fastest air-breathing vehicles when manned. History will prove that the XMSL was one of the defining projects of the Clinton Presidency.

WORMgearster
10-26-2006, 02:50 PM
Evan, I forgot some info. Why would you see this craft manned or unmanned over Canadian Air Space. Well,prior to it being moved to phase three development which was strictly military in nature, The Clinton Administration moved it to Canada.

lynnl
10-26-2006, 04:33 PM
Evan, I'm surprised by your first statement:
"I stepped outside one day this summer and looked up, which is the first thing I always do when going outside. ...."

I know you have a dog. I've had several dogs myself. And the first thing I do when I step outside is look DOWN.

You might better watch your step!

J Tiers
10-26-2006, 05:19 PM
Normal military traffic very well might fly in a known flyway, higher, lower, or right in and among, depending....

Anything "black" stays away from such areas to avoid being spotted....

New stuff will not care much about the vortac, way back in the 80's there was self-contained navigation to distant targets and back.....


The decision was made a long time ago that unmanned was better..... No more "Gary Powers" incidents, ability to do things people cannot take, at least 100kilos plus weight of support equipment is eliminated, and NO NEED TO MAN-RATE THE AIRFRAME!

Evan
10-26-2006, 06:44 PM
I know you have a dog. I've had several dogs myself.
She NEVER sh*ts near the house. Both of my dogs have specific areas where they go and not anywhere else. The Beardog was well trained within a week or two after we got her at 8 weeks old. I have never seen such a fast learner.

http://crazywolf.com/beardog/lika3a.jpg

JT,

There have been unequivocal sightings of what must be "black" military aircraft many times over BC. This is a very lightly populated area and the US uses various locations in western Canada for military purposes. There is a submarine testing range off the inside coast of Vancouver Island, they test cruise missiles in Northern Canada, there is a missile firing range for sea launched missiles off the coast of northern BC, there is a large military training area about 50 miles from Williams Lake and there is an alternate WWII airport at Puntzi Lake 100 miles west as well as here. They use the Puntzi airport for water bombers these days but it is still military rated. TACAN is still used by the military as a backup system for navigation and we also have a major LORAN C station here as well.

[edit]

I wouldn't be suprised if the Williams Lake airport is on the list of emergency landing sites for a black aircraft that might need to put down. It is impossible to see aircraft at the airport unless you are right at the airport itself and there is only one way in to the top of the plateau the airport is located on. It can be sealed off in minutes. It has a buffer zone of government land around it of at least a mile where there are no roads or houses or other access.

Oh, BC has one of the highest rates of "UFO" sightings in North America...

Lew Hartswick
10-26-2006, 07:05 PM
" used in the hot turban sections of the engines.

I asume those are from Saudi Arabia. Or at least some Mid East country. :-)
...lew...

A.K. Boomer
10-26-2006, 07:40 PM
My cohort in crime, "an engineer", was looking over my shoulder and insist that the contrail in your ppicture is from a secret experimental craft code named, "The Lewinsky". It was one of the few military projects fully funded by the Clinton Administration. Fully funded in 1999, the XMSL-1 has a "cigar shape" and it's contrail looks like smoke rings. Its initial design actually started in the Oval office of the White House in November 1995. The first flight test the "Bird" was dubbed "Monica" and exhibited extreme maneuverability and was one of the fastest air-breathing vehicles when manned. History will prove that the XMSL was one of the defining projects of the Clinton Presidency.



Im sold on motomorons explaination and findings but wormgearster wins for most erotic explaination, geeze --- i almost felt dirty after reading all that!

"The first flight test the "Bird" was dubbed "Monica" and exhibited extreme maneuverability and was one of the fastest air-breathing vehicles when manned."

Thats the line that found me taking a cold shower a few minutes later...

cam m
10-26-2006, 07:45 PM
"Oh, BC has one of the highest rates of "UFO" sightings in North America..."

I always thought it was because B.C. is the magic mushroom capital of Canuckland...

Todd Tolhurst
10-26-2006, 07:59 PM
I know you have a dog.

Maybe he's got pigeons,too.

Evan
10-26-2006, 09:38 PM
Maybe he's got pigeons,too.

No, that's the neighbour. I have a shotgun.