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BillH
10-28-2006, 12:45 AM
Wear a helmet when you ride your bike, luckily my leg and shoulder and hip took most of the fall. Tore up something in my leg, cant walk, stranded from school, cant go to classes, gonna need surgery most likely. THe head thing coukld of been much worse, dont be stupid, wear a helmet!

Evan
10-28-2006, 01:06 AM
Well, that sucks. A helmet saved my head once. I was tooling down the street at about 30 mph in Berkeley on my little Honda 50 when a woman pulled directly out in front of me and then stopped. I had nowhere to go because of a center divider and parked cars plus the road was wet. I got it sideways before I hit so didn't do an endo over the car. I slammed into the drivers door and my helmet put a dent about six inches wide in the top of the door frame. Scared the crap out of the driver as she never saw me. Mashed my leg between the bike and the door, didn't work very well for quite a while. Foot peg left a hole in the door too.

TECHSHOP
10-28-2006, 01:06 AM
Dude, that SUCKS!

Hopefully your recovery will be nearly complete and be fairly quick. Don't know your local time, but get some rest, before the Hospital magic wears off.

wierdscience
10-28-2006, 01:24 AM
Exercise is the key to good health:rolleyes:

Well that sucks,don't jump into surgery too quick,things might be better by morning.

In our prayers,

Forrest Addy
10-28-2006, 01:28 AM
Not to pick on any motorcycle enthusiasts but here's a grim statistic from about 15 years ago. On average over 7 years, chances are 100% a motorcyclist who rides every day will need hospital care. Lots of guys never do get banged up but these are balanced by the guys who seem to wear casts all year long.

Here's something else: A motorcyclist find himself a victim in a situation were the motorist that hits him is fully aware and vigilent. Moving road hazards are 99% car and truck sized. Small hazards like guys on scooters don't seem to register especially in heavy or - oddly - light traffic.. This is National Highway Safety Commission stuff.

Hear's another: loud pipes don't help. Often they're a distraction because a driver can't tell where the pipes are from the accoustics of the road and in his car. He may even be distracted from keeping an eye open for the motorcyle he thinks maybe elsewhere.

There's a lot of urban legends circulated among motorcycle riders. Some are not only flat untrue but can kill you if you give them credence at the wrong moment.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2006, 02:36 AM
Not to "curb" anyones "rules" on wearing a helmet while riding a bike but this is something to chew on, well over 50,000 miles on my Mt. bike over some of the most brutal terrain (at speed and many of crashes) in colorado without a helmet and only a very small fraction of that with wearing one only because they wont let you race without it -------- fact is is i got in a wreck about 6 years ago when i wasnt wearing one and it was a bad one, a direct hit to the forehead on pavement that pushed my head back and then luckly my face got involved, jacked my neck up, go to see a very experienced chiropractor and he says to me that if i was wearing a helmet i would have been a quad -------- said all it would have took was the extra inch of front foam on top of my head to not only increase the leverage off my head but to keep my face from taking up the extra angle.......
Iv never used them unless on race day ------------- Now Im skating for free, is it right for everybody --- god no,,, but it has worked for me and now the system is in my favor.... Odds of percentage? fuqe that, helmets suck hind tit, at least they do for me and you really cant have a rational arguement with that...


want reality,,, check into the first Mt. bike helmets that didnt have the hardskin cover but were just styrofoam, kids were skidding out on trails and catching imbedded rocks with the styrofoam (still happens with the hard shells on occasion) and twisting off thier heads, most wouldnt even have connected with the rocks without the extra two inches of foam hanging off thier heads...

To me you have to way things out, its kinda like wearing a seat belt while driving the river road to salida, odds are your not going to hit another car but you could end up in the brink upside down in the river and the inertia (or pendulum) devise overiding the release mechanism of the thing that was supposed to save you, (gulp-gulp-gulp)

This is just a heads up, realize that there are risk factors involved in safety devices, Its just a pet pieve of mine --- if your going to say wear something to prevent something please give the counter percentage of all the people who will be killed or dismembered and such by doing so --- overall percentage just dont cut it with some of the people on this board... to me --- helmets suck.

speedy
10-28-2006, 04:15 AM
It be good to hear that your head unit is still functioning Bill; a lucky escape?:confused: .

I have ridden pre and post compulsary helmet legislation.
I cannot ride anymore but still hold that helmets give riders a false sense of security. Consequently they ride faster and take more risks. They hear less, see less and lose focus. Couple this with the number of DD&B drivers out there increases the accident risk further.
Losing the grey matter in an accident has less to do with helmets and a lot more to do with missfortune and stupidity.
I would be as greatly concerned with limb and body damage as head injury.
Maybe we should all only ever ride in cars? except that, apparently, a very large number of head injuries occur in auto accidents.
We have side intrusion bars, air bags, seat belts, ABS etc.
Helmets in cars could/should be mandatory?:rolleyes:
Commonsense and luck are large part of life.
I`m tired of 'safety' being legislated into my life until I cannot breath.
Stuff them I say, any safety measures are my option.

Evan
10-28-2006, 09:09 AM
Boomer,

The fiberglass hardshell on my helmet back in '66 or so was Snell approved and it was crushed like an eggshell on a hard boiled egg that you dropped on the floor. If I hadn't been wearing it that would have been my skull and would have ruined the entire day.

You can buy helmets with a cervical cutout if the neck issue concerns you.

Your argument is the same as the seatbelt argument that some people use. It's often possible to find an example where a safety device ends up making an injury worse or even causes one but the overwhelming number of times it is needed it does what it should and reduces or eliminates serious injury. Not wearing a helmet isn't an even odds game. It's more like playing russian roulette.

Mcgyver
10-28-2006, 10:11 AM
Boomer,
It's more like playing russian roulette.

but with 5 bullets and one empty. an anecdote, like the guy who claims a seatbelt would have saved him, while great if it worked in your favour, is just and anecdote, its not an argument against broader statistical data.

Bill, a speedy recovery. I do agree with Forrest though, its a dangerous lifestyle riding a bike, only a matter of time imo. Then again its each persons choice.

Wirecutter
10-28-2006, 10:49 AM
I'm unsure whether it was a bicycle or motorcycle, but in any event, I hope you have a speedy recovery, BillH.

I separated a shoulder in a bicycle accident years ago, and that's how I came to understand that enough pain can make a person do (or not do) anything. Anything at all.

I hope you can avoid surgury, but if not, try to get the best quality care and listen to your Doc (and your body.) Be well.

-Mark

Todd Tolhurst
10-28-2006, 11:27 AM
Best wishes for a quick recovery, Bill. I hope it turns out better than it now seems.

motomoron
10-28-2006, 11:32 AM
35+ years of road bicycles and skateboards, 25+ years of street motorcycles, many years racing bicycles, 5 seasons roadracing motorcycles, 5seasons racing sprint karts.

I've been on the ground courtesy of a car 4 times, once on a motorcycle, 3 times on a bicycle. Racing motorcycles I had 2 or 3 crashes. No broken bones, no serious injuries.

I commute to work through Washington DC chaos traffic in the city almost every day, and wear a fully armored Aerostich Darien 2 piece suit with the top half in Hi-viz yellow, an Arai XD helmet, fully armored held race gloves, and Oxtar boots which are just this side of motocross boots. The combined cost of all the gear is more than my first couple bikes combined, but in the event that taxi u-turns into me, I'm much more likely to get up, beat every window out of said taxi with my Kryptonite chain, and continue on to work.

Helmets have saved my life on a number of occasions, and quality riding apparel has been sacrificed avoiding roadrash. I've been hot in the summer, but I'll never, EVER ride without every advantage I can get.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2006, 11:37 AM
Im sorry I got so steamed about this last night and didnt even make a comment about your crash Bill, I wish you a speedy recovery ---

I also hear the word "bike" and assume you were talking about a bicycle not a motorcycle,
But either one I do believe a helmet can be a double edge sword, when i hear somebody tell me to wear one i get a little pissed, Im so greatful i wasnt when i crashed esp. the big one, if your going to play the odds game fine --- at least make the statement that helmets are overall safer but by useing one you can be killed or seriously injured, God --- even the obnoxious drug companies have to do that, Crestor may help most people avoid a heart attack in the long run but they also state that it can vaporize your liver,

I would just like to see more awareness about just what helmets do, different sports vary but when it comes to cycling i will tell you this, if your riding on a spongy or sandy trail your chances of a severe head injury are nill, yet having this massive fulcrum plate anchored to your head can increase injury to your neck 10 fold, bicycle helmets are impact helmets by design and they use very thick foam that hangs out in front and on the sides, good for impact - bad for leverage on the neck, in general --- wear a bike helmet on certain types of rides - decrease your head injuries BUT drastically increase your neck injuries, and im hear to tell you --- wear a bike helmet on certain types of other rides - not much bennifit for head injuries and terrible odds against you for neck injuries, if you want to play the odds game things can be turned around very quickly in favor of not wearing one ---- yet millions of people dont even think twice about it and assume a helmet is safer in all instances,
Its hard to imagine going out of your way to strap something on your head thats going to turn you into a quadraplegic a few moments later ----- Fact -- I can show you many of Mt. bike trail that puts you (the helmet wearer) on the poor choice of the russian roulette game.

Evan, the cervical cuttout does nothing to decrease the amount of leverage that the bicycle helmet has on the neck, it also does nothing to change the leverage angle --- beleive me, i know its hard to imagine but there are certain types of crashes where you want your face to get involved, they arent called "faceplants" just for the hell of it, now imagine having a lever anchored a couple inches off your forehead and the weight of your body behind all the momentum ----- thats suicide my friend.


A quick note about another type of helmet that i really dont believe they could do a better job building for the aplication it is used for, The top line white water kayaking helmet is extremly low profile, is a fiberglass hardshell outer skin that fits like a glove and only has about 1/4" of inner foam --- they slip off of slippery river rocks when you hit, they have enough foam to make cranking rocks tollerable, To whitewater kayak without a helmet is total suicide that is if your doing river running, Iv never seen a boater not wearing one, its a situation that is almost 100% in your favor, yet when my local surf wave has pumped up to 3,500 CFS I have been known to forget to put my helmet on after taking a break by shore and people remind me, This situation is not river running, its a wave that at that level i know i have a good 6' when upside down to the river bed and because its in the same spot there is usually no suprises, still, this is spring melt after all and i have had to dodge full railroad ties and massive trees that come through the wave, when im reminded i head back to shore and put my helmet back on, I think with no risk of wearing one it would be kind of foolish not to...

BillH
10-28-2006, 11:38 AM
I was riding my bicycle, a mountain bike actually with street tires. The good news is that I got 20 miles in before it happened. I was going to do 30 though...
I came up to a stop sign, another driver came up to the same intersection, I usually blow by the stop signs, this time though because of other traffic I decided to slow way down. I hit the breaks too hard, slid off my seat and must of been straddling the bike going 15 mph before I was sideways and skidding on the pavement. The guy got out of his car and helped me. He couldnt drive me back though to the house that was less than 1 mile away, he had to catch a plane to India. So I rode my bike the final mile using my 1 good leg to peddle. In my fall, my shoulder hit first, then my head. In this particular fall a helmet would of been nothing but a GOOD thing to have on.
AK Boomer, sounds like your doing the downhill racing stuff on Mountain Bikes? That is an entirely different beast than road biking, different situation altogether.
You know, if I decided to stay in Miami this weekend I wouldn't of wiped out my bike but something else may of happened instead. Just gotta roll with what life throws at ya.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2006, 11:57 AM
I basically do cross country, it can be brutal terrain but its much more technical but way lower speeds, most of your downhillers have the full face lower profile motorcycle style helmet, it gives good protection whithout as much risk to the neck, X country riders cant wear these because we consume oxygen like a charging buffalo so for one you cant have a full face, you can get the BMX style but then you overheat your head and start to make stupid mistakes because brain temps skyrocket --- this is a huge factor in race cars also -- its why they make air conditioned helmets that operate off of the cars electrical system, the helmets actually have freon and everything, brain temps are critical when racing at over 200 MPH, many of driver has died because of poor split second reaction time due to to hot of a head...........

Evan
10-28-2006, 12:24 PM
Suit yourself Boomer. I don't like regulations that try and tell me what I should do for my own safety. On the other hand, I don't like having to help pay to keep somebody else "alive" in a persistent vegetative state for the rest of their "natural" life because they were a runner up for a Darwin award.

Around here your car insurance is null and void if you are in an accident while driving impaired. Perhaps the same should apply to health insurance if you do something demonstrably foolish like not wearing a helmet when called for and suffer a preventable head injury.

mklotz
10-28-2006, 01:02 PM
I came up to a stop sign, another driver came up to the same intersection, I usually blow by the stop signs, this time though because of other traffic I decided to slow way down.

Maybe, just maybe, bicyclists should consider obeying the traffic rules.

Around here (SoCAl), the idiots pull stuff that would make you cringe. Sweeping left turns made from the far right lane without a signal, running red lights at blind intersections, etc... and, of course, cycling while cell phoning.

BillH
10-28-2006, 01:09 PM
Maybe, just maybe, bicyclists should consider obeying the traffic rules.

Around here (SoCAl), the idiots pull stuff that would make you cringe. Sweeping left turns made from the far right lane without a signal, running red lights at blind intersections, etc... and, of course, cycling while cell phoning.

Well losing momentum and starting from a standstill certainly would give me more exercise. Before I started bicycling, I would see bicyclists do things that would annoy me to no end while I was driving a car. Now that I bicycle, I fully understand their side of things and it makes a whole lot more sense to me.
I'll make no excuses for my own actions, I take full responsibilities for my own decisions.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2006, 01:18 PM
Suit yourself Boomer. I don't like regulations that try and tell me what I should do for my own safety. On the other hand, I don't like having to help pay to keep somebody else "alive" in a persistent vegetative state for the rest of their "natural" life because they were a runner up for a Darwin award.

Around here your car insurance is null and void if you are in an accident while driving impaired. Perhaps the same should apply to health insurance if you do something demonstrably foolish like not wearing a helmet when called for and suffer a preventable head injury.



Souds fair to me Evan, as long as i dont have to pay for all the Darwin "quads" that intentionally put something on thier head to snap thier necks..

lazlo
10-28-2006, 01:28 PM
Tore up something in my leg, cant walk, stranded from school, cant go to classes, gonna need surgery most likely.

Oh wow, sorry about that Bill! Hope you feel better!
Let us know how things turn out...

Robert

Evan
10-28-2006, 01:39 PM
Souds fair to me Evan, as long as i dont have to pay for all the Darwin "quads" that intentionally put something on thier head to snap thier necks..

That is a very much smaller bill.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2006, 01:44 PM
The biggest factor for me in a crash is two things, One; i hope i see it coming and two; I Hope the cat like reactions come back to me when i need them, learning how to crash is the most important part of crashing, helmet or not, at least on a Mt. bike it is, Iv had my share of what would have been very serious crashes and never hit my head except that one time and that was because i did not see it coming, I swear to you I was laying in the street bleeding and looking behind me to see who threw the brick or where the brick was, thats how much it took me from surprise, i even thought for a second that something fell from the sky,I did get lucky in not having a helmet on --- also realize it could have went the other way, but if you claim a helmet is safer in all instances you simply dont know what the hell your talking about, All the thousands of miles through all the stuff iv ridden and i almost get taken out a couple blocks from home while riding to pick up a newspaper, Your single biggest defence is not to crash in the first place, (something your acutely more aware of for some reason when you dont have a helmet on, the emergency rooms are jam packed solid with kids who think they are invincible because they have all the protection gear in the world except common sense) your second single biggest defence is to see it coming, third in line is pray to god that the reflexes are with you in mid flight set up, and last but not least it would be nice to have a button to push before impact for Helmet or no helmet decision --- mine has already been made for me, turns out i made a good choice, now like i say --- Im skating for free.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2006, 01:50 PM
That is a very much smaller bill.


Pehaps we can have trajectory/impact/and inertia committee's that decide who was right in thier decisions, maybe expand these committee's to include lawn jarts and other stuff? although i dont know when a lawn jart has ever saved a life but maybe somebody was having a barbeque and fended off a wild animal with one. :rolleyes:

BillH
10-28-2006, 01:53 PM
In certain crashes, a seat belt would decapitate you, what do you do? Make your decision and live with it.

RobDee
10-28-2006, 03:44 PM
I raced moto-cross and bicycles. Always wore the mandatory helmet. When I crashed my bicycle on a casual ride my helmet saved my life and I had the destroyed helmet to prove it. Look at the statistics. Your chances are volumes better living through a crash with a helmet than without.

The person who told you that you would have been worse with a helmet is talking subjectively. You don't know what would have happened and either does he.

Slap your head against the wall a couple of times and tell me what you think your head would do if you multiplied that by the force of hitting that wall at 60 mph.

Count yourself lucky on this one and get a helmet.

I'm with Evan.

Joel
10-28-2006, 03:51 PM
if you claim a helmet is safer in all instances you simply dont know what the hell your talking about.

I don’t recall anyone making claims about EVERY single instance, but in the overwhelming number of cases, then yes, they obviously add an increased overall level of safety.


In certain crashes, a seat belt would decapitate you, what do you do? Make your decision and live with it.

I have a little bit of experience in this area, as I am the first person on scene to several wrecks every week.
Here are some common scenarios I have to deal with:
Scenario 1: We arrive on scene to find a person 15’ away from a rolled over vehicle. Assuming they are alive, we try to stabilize them and call for a helicopter to transport them to a level 1 trauma center.
Scenario 2: We arrive on scene to a rollover and find a person standing next to their car, pissed off and talking on a cell phone.
Guess which occupant was wearing a seat belt. Over the course of 5 years of doing this type of work, the trend is overwhelmingly obvious, and consistent. I have never seen, nor have I ever heard of anyone ever being decapitated by a seatbelt.

I dislike personal decisions being legislated as much as anyone, but I always wear a helmet, even though I do not legally have to do so. I wear a full face, since I figure that if I have an intact cranium, a face would also be nice to have.
People who argue against seatbelt, airbags, or helmets are simply using unusual exceptions to claim some kind of fictitious rule. If a device helps someone survive, or reduces the level of injury in 95 out of 100 incidents, then only a fool does not utilize the device.

speedsport
10-28-2006, 04:01 PM
Do you know what they call people who ride motorcycles without a helmet?.....................ORGAN DONORS!!

RobDee
10-28-2006, 06:48 PM
Good post Joel.

By the way a seat belt also saved my life. I blew a tire on the express way and the seat belt kept me in the seat and in the car which enabled me to control the wheel.

The forces are tremendous. My arms twisted back and forth so fast that I got wrist burns from my jacket. It took me a couple of days to figure out how it happened.

WORMgearster
10-28-2006, 07:05 PM
BillH, sorry to hear about your injuries... may you heal quickly and get back up in the saddle soon.

My great uncle rode from his teens thru his 70's. He said he never felt as free doing anything else then when he was riding without a helmet. My nephew has been a paramedic for 10 years and he always comments that helmets and seat belts with few exceptions minimize injuries. Especially, life threatening injuries.

My uncle was always the exception to the rule.

Good luck BiilH

mklotz
10-28-2006, 07:14 PM
Well losing momentum and starting from a standstill certainly would give me more exercise. Before I started bicycling, I would see bicyclists do things that would annoy me to no end while I was driving a car. Now that I bicycle, I fully understand their side of things and it makes a whole lot more sense to me.
I'll make no excuses for my own actions, I take full responsibilities for my own decisions.

The fact that traffic laws are inconvenient for you doesn't nullify your responsibility to obey them. Many of these laws are inconvenient for motorists as well. When motorists fail to obey them they call it reckless driving. I see no reason to change the terminology for cyclists.

wierdscience
10-28-2006, 07:49 PM
Funny thing those seatbelts,I used to not wear one long ago,but as talk increased of them being made manditory I got ino the habit.These days it doesn't feel right unless it's on.I also find that I drive on average 10 mph faster than I did before.Same thing is probibly the case with helmets.

Seatbelts are a definate help in reducing fatalities,same example as Joel mentioned is the norm here.

BillH
10-28-2006, 08:10 PM
The fact that traffic laws are inconvenient for you doesn't nullify your responsibility to obey them. Many of these laws are inconvenient for motorists as well. When motorists fail to obey them they call it reckless driving. I see no reason to change the terminology for cyclists.
Do you ride a bicycle?

Your Old Dog
10-28-2006, 08:15 PM
Hope you're feeling better soon but have tell you, if this happend today you aren't hurting yet. tormorrow will be your "hitting the wall" day.

I hit a cow at 50mph on a motorcycle. I was amazed at how tough I was. After I came to the world was a quite place but I didn't particularly hurt too much. It wasn't until the following morning when I had trouble getting out of bed because every muscle in my body ached.

I was wearing a Bell helmet and scratched up the back of it pretty good on the blacktop. My leather riding jacket was scrapped up real good on the back neck region. It was a Bates and they told me I got a free replacement if I wanted one. Told'em I'd keep that with it's battlescars to remind me of the day the Prime Rib almost got the better of me!!

Milacron of PM
10-28-2006, 11:46 PM
Invention and Technology magazine did a "history of the crash helmet" story a few years ago and one interesting fact that emerged is that statistically for bicycle use head injuries have *increased* in recent years with increased helmet use.

Really no good answer for why at the time of the article...they speculated a combination of some bad helmet designs, increased motor traffic, more "extreme" bicycling use, impared vision with the helmet...that sort of thing.

In a similar "makes no sense" vein, insurance companies have found that anti-lock brakes have not decreased braking related accidents at all. I seem to recall the speculation there being folks not using antilock properly but still pumping the brakes when they should be just putting the pedal to the metal in emergency braking situations.

speedy
10-29-2006, 07:11 AM
People can quote the stats till the cows come home, IMO 'safety' has as much to do with fate and circumstance as prevention measures.
Head injuries are not pleasant.
I knew Jesse who was in that situation because he did not wear a helmet. T boned a car at a 100 and became a quad. Not a pleasant outcome. His pillion suffered some broken limbs and a smashed up jaw.
Another mate at the spinal unit was in the same predicament in spite of wearing a lid; without it he would have died. He would have preferred that option.

Evan
10-29-2006, 07:38 AM
Helmets reduce head injuries. Increases in head injuries for cyclists is clearly because of the changes in how bicycles are used. There was nothing like the types of bikes we have now or their uses when I was young and rode a bike 1000s of miles per year. Nobody was blasting down steep hillsides and jumping off cliffs. There were no BMX parks made of concrete. City traffic was much lighter and drivers much better. Police actually had time to enforce traffic laws. Anybody ever recall Bicycle Court? I had to write an essay once on why it was a bad idea to blow a stop sign.

There is a good reason that boxers wear training helmets and it isn't to make them look pretty. The same goes for hockey players.

For every injury where a helmet didn't help or even exacerbated an injury there are a dozen more incidents like mine where no injury occured because of a helmet. The ratio is probably a lot higher than that but who knows? Incidents where helmet use saves injury aren't reported.

I don't see how a statistic such as Don reports can have any meaning regarding the effectiveness of helmets. Correlation between two seemingly related things is meaningless unless causation can be established. Correlation does not imply causation, a golden rule of statistics.

BillH
10-29-2006, 09:31 AM
Hope you're feeling better soon but have tell you, if this happend today you aren't hurting yet. tormorrow will be your "hitting the wall" day.


Ah that would be today, funny, I was not as sore yesterday as I am today and this happened Friday afternoon! Well since I can't move much I'm just going to play in solid works and design a gauge 1 live steam locomotive. Since I cant build it with no shop, maybe I'll upload it here, you guys can give me suggestions. First thing first, I need to finish the design of it.

A.K. Boomer
10-29-2006, 11:29 AM
Never disputed that overall bicycle helmets are a safer choice IN MOST RIDING CONDITIONS,,, But heres' the facts --- wear a bicycle helmet - decrease head injuries and increase neck and upper spine injuries....

One more fact, wear a helmet on the wrong type of ride, do nill to prevent a head injury and increase odds of neck injuries for no good reason,

This is my perspective, Iv got decades of having the wind blow through my hair, of keeping my head cool to prevent god only knows how many more accidents that would have occured had i not, and also preventing a terrible situation in the crash from hell ----- if I crack my bean counter tomorrow im still way ahead of the game, I take crashing very seriously, Im not talking about a motorcycle, im not talking 60+ on a downhill bicycle (although iv been over that on rare occasion) Im talking an average speed on technical single track of 15 to 20 mph -- as long as i see things coming this is generally a speed i feel like i have some control in flight --- I do have a helmet, I wear it a couple times a year when i do extreme angles on very rocky terrain, its kinda more like trials riding, there is no speed to speak of but the gradient is 45 degree's plus, This is where i draw the line --- Im nervous about the potentual broken neck but im way more concerned with going over the bars and a direct head plant --------- The reason I bring up the flip side is because this is not a black and white topic ------- I have a pieve with people who think that a bicycle helmet is the way to go in every condition, you are wrong, Use judgement when wearing one and not wearing one, and always throw everything you have at the ground first before you let your head hit --- helmet or not --- this way you wont end up being one of those guys who was wearing a bicycle helmet and protected his head but completley removed his face ( I have stopped in the middle of a race to help a few of these guys out)

Last but not least, percentage does not cover everything, some of you guys act like if it was 51% better with a helmet and 49% without that "with" is the way to go ----- If i crack my bean its totally up to me and its my decision, that regret i can live with,,, but if im laying in bed a quad for the rest of my life because i strapped a poorly designed leverage apparatus on top of my head that I actually would have been much better off leaving at home as a dog chew toy - Well --- that gentelmen would stick in my craw...

Im not saying this works for everybody, in fact i will admit i am too far over to this side of the spectrum --- but nobody can argue with me that its worked for me -------- Im not cocky --- and i pray that the crash gods will be with me for my next one, (and there will be a "next one") Im greatful iv had the kind of reflexes in mid-flight that iv had --- some of the stuff should have been in a James Bond movie complete with a high speed over the bars somersault through the air and landing on my feet running, that one bent my front forks -tacoe'd my front wheel and buckled the frame on my old Sho-Gun, weigh it all out with all of the factors, but do realize this, A bicycle helmet drastically increases your risk of neck injury, if your riding on a soft pack sandy trail you might want to concider asking yourself if head protection is worth the risk... Things can escalate very quickly in the favor of not wearing one in a situation like this --- the softer ground makes head protection unessesary while at the same time causes your leverage devise to stick into the ground while your body wants to keep moving, not a good combo...
Iv been on trails like this and while passing another rider heard him say "wear your helmet" Its a typical Non-thinking responce but because im going by at such a great rate of speed i really dont have time to explain everything to him so i just say "dude -- your an Idiot"...

wierdscience
10-29-2006, 01:00 PM
In a similar "makes no sense" vein, insurance companies have found that anti-lock brakes have not decreased braking related accidents at all. I seem to recall the speculation there being folks not using antilock properly but still pumping the brakes when they should be just putting the pedal to the metal in emergency braking situations.

I don't think it has anything to do with people pumping the're brakes.After all is was people NOT pumping the're brakes that led to ABS in the first place.Most life or death panic stops indicate not pumping as the drivers slammed the pedal so hard it bent.

It think it's just another example of too many variables coupled with overly complicated equipment not functioning properly.I know of many people who have had major trouble with the're ABS on GM vehicles.My parent's own car was undrivable from this condition and the dealer was unable to correct the problem.

There was a decrease in accidents for awhile when we had 2 wheel ABS.Plain discs on the front and ABS drums on the back.That keeps you staight and stable in a panic and still allows a lockup in the front when it's best like in low speed panic stops.

The other variables it seems would make ABS null.Road conditons,tread wear,tire inflation,shock ands strut conditions all play a roll.

torker
10-29-2006, 01:08 PM
Bill, glad to hear your ok. Damm ol' bones and stuff just don't take the likkin they used to do they?
Russ

John Stevenson
10-29-2006, 01:22 PM
Not wanting to get involved in the argument over helmets or not but can someone shed some light over a problem that's puzzled me for a while on helmets.??

Years ago we had what were called pudding basin helmets, just a skid lid with leather protection below the dome and included the strap.
Then these were deemed unsafe, outlawed [ at least in the UK ] and then we had the space helmet with rear neck and ear protection.

These was then also outlawed and we moved onto the current full face helmet with various BSI safety specs.

All to protect our heads in a smash.

Now we have helmets for cyclists that look and cover nothing like any of the previous types for motorcycles.

Why ??

You use the same head to ride a cycle and a motor cycle.

If you ride a motorcycle over here with a bike helmet on you are nicked as it doesn't come up to safety standards but they don't feel that the full face safety standard is nessesary for cycles.

Surely the spec's should cover the object, in this case the head, not the form of transport. ??

.

BillH
10-29-2006, 02:22 PM
bicycle helmets are designed to allow for maximum amount of air ventilation to keep your head cool. After 20 miles of riding my bike at a good pace for exercise, I am soaking wet from sweat. A hot head will make you misserable and as AK boomer said, Stupid, not able to think straight. I hadnt drunk any water by the time I wiped out, almost as if I couldnt control my hands from hitting the breaks too hard, maybe I was overheating. A full face motorcycle helmet will cook your head like an oven.


Now we have helmets for cyclists that look and cover nothing like any of the previous types for motorcycles.

Why ??

You use the same head to ride a cycle and a motor cycle.

If you ride a motorcycle over here with a bike helmet on you are nicked as it doesn't come up to safety standards but they don't feel that the full face safety standard is nessesary for cycles.

Surely the spec's should cover the object, in this case the head, not the form of transport. ??

BillB
10-29-2006, 08:10 PM
Funny that the helmet topic can stir things up almost as much on a machinist board as on a bicycling board....

I've only had a couple of road bike crashes where my head actually hit, the last this summer when I smashed the back of the helmet (on a grassy shoulder), and got away with only a concussion. Wearing the lid on road rides is a no-brainer, IMHO.

Never thought about the resilient surface thing on the mtn bike, maybe Boomer has a point there. I'll still be wearing my helmet there too, though. Caught too many branches with it on unfamiliar trails back in my heavy mb days.

Seatbelts: when I was learning to drive, my dad worked for the Va. Highway Dept. and copies of all the fatal accident reports in the state crossed his desk. (He learned to drive in a Model T before the advent of actual drivers licenses but _always_ wore belts) He sat me down with a 2 inch stack of those and made sure I read them. Bodies thrown out of windows onto whatever, rolled over by the vehicles, found in trees, etc,etc. It was pretty clear to me, even at that tender (I would now say dumbass) age, which way the odds ran. I've buckled up religiously ever since. Also, as pointed out above, it's a lot easier to remain in control in an emergency if you're not sliding around inside the car.

Stay safe out there guys, natural selection is waiting to catch up with all of us....

BillB

abn
10-29-2006, 10:06 PM
Sorry to hear about your accident...I hope you have a quick recovery!!

A.K. Boomer
10-29-2006, 10:26 PM
Im bad with my lap belt but my shoulder belt is one of those that are connected to the door so i leave it connected and do feel naked without it, Iv had a few friends who were V. firemen and went to all the wrecks, the things they say about windshields creep me out more that anything ----- talk about poor design but it is difficult to improve on with all the things a shield has to do --- it cant be made of the tempered side glass because one little stone would shatter the entire shield, shields are also part of the integral strength of many vehicles now, but what about this --- what about a super tough lexan layer on the inside and bonded to just one piece of the outer glass? keep a person from removing thier face and scalp in a crash anyways,,, windshields are Two piece with that gummy stuff in the middle, Its 2006, dont you think we could do better?

To get even more off topic --- did you guys here about that lady who drove home drunk and hit a guy and put his head through her shield, she still drove home with him that way and put her car in the garage and everything, the guy was pleading to get help but she went in the house and went to bed, he bled to death overnight -------- I heard this a few times --- somebody please tell me this was just a rumor...

Joel
10-29-2006, 10:59 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90498,00.html

Chante Mallard, a nurse's aide in Fort Worth, hit a man with her car and then left him stuck headfirst in her broken windshield for TWO DAYS as he bled to death. She periodically walked into her garage during the two days and apologized to the man.

Evan
10-30-2006, 12:21 AM
Chante Mallard, a nurse's aide in Fort Worth, hit a man with her car and then left him stuck headfirst in her broken windshield for TWO DAYS as he bled to death. She periodically walked into her garage during the two days and apologized to the man.
???? That isn't what the story says. What does it have to do with helmets anyway? The story implies he was dead at the scene.

Joel
10-30-2006, 01:07 AM
He didn't die from the impact, but bled to death. Sorry, that was a cut and paste from a different article, and of course this has nothing to do with helmets.

"Mallard told Fort Worth police she sporadically went into the garage to "check" on Biggs. She said she apologized in earnest for what she had done but ignored his plea for help."
"According to the affidavit, Mallard told the women that she waited a couple of days for Biggs to die before two male friends expunged his body and dumped it in a nearby park. She said she planned to torch the car and buy a new one after she received her income tax refund."

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/p/parks/03/parks062803.htm

slowtwitch
10-30-2006, 06:28 AM
Hate to hear a fellow cyclist get hurt, hope you heal soon. As for helmets, I use them all the time. Let's face it, someone will find something wrong with anything. Your machines can kill you, should you stop using them??? Do you wear steel toe shoes??? I love how people rationalize this debates with urban myths.

pete

BillH
10-30-2006, 08:07 AM
Thanks guys for all the good wishes. I need to call up my school and try to salvage the rest of the semester, call up my teachers, and call up the surgeon for an MRI. I do have a helmet, its just 2,000 miles north of me at the moment.
Im no stranger to knee injuries, this one feels like its not going to heal up right on its own, I hope I am wrong. To be honest, when it happened, I was mad that I wasn't able to go any further, I felt like I had 30 miles in me.
Well time to go on a reduced calorie meal plan if I cant exercise. For those who are interested in my weight loss progress, I am up to 230lbs lost.

Mcgyver
10-30-2006, 08:27 AM
Bill, 230 lbs, thats amazing, congrats. pita when the body doesn't let you excersice :( , I hope you can replace it with something. I run and am always fearfull of the day when the knees don't hold up and I've few years on you.

BillH
10-30-2006, 08:44 AM
Bill, 230 lbs, thats amazing, congrats. pita when the body doesn't let you excersice :( , I hope you can replace it with something. I run and am always fearfull of the day when the knees don't hold up and I've few years on you.
Theres plenty of low impact stuff you can do like bicycling(as long as you stay upright :) ) And Kayaking is always fun. Kayaking doesnt seam like a workout until after your done and notice your drenched in sweat. Walking too. Im thinking maybe about doing ab crunches on the floor for lower back and arm exercises. Yeh, 230lbs, I know thats a lot of weight, an amazing amount to lose but It just hasn't sunk in yet probably because I could stand to lose another 100lbs.
I think I now understand how skinny blondes think they are always fat and losing more than they need. I look in mirror and I still see how fat I am, rarely do I feel accomplished about what I lost. It's wierd.

Evan
10-30-2006, 09:01 AM
I think I now understand how skinny blondes think they are always fat and losing more than they need. I look in mirror and I still see how fat I am, rarely do I feel accomplished about what I lost. It's wierd.
That is something I am well accquainted with from personal experience. At the point about 20 years ago when my gluten intolerance was at it's worst I was down to 130 lbs and I am 6' 2". I was slowly starving to death no matter how much I ate. It was at that time that I finally figured out the problem when I ended up in the hospital.

I started gaining weight immediately although slowly. I got up as high as 190.

It took me a very long time to become accustomed to my changed body image. I was very skinny all my life. Looking in the mirror and seeing myself as not skinny just didn't look like me. Even now, 20 years later it still doesn't seem quite right sometimes. I have a tendency to skip meals if my weight creeps above 180 for any reason. I have to work at keeping my weight up most of the time.

Give it time and it does start to become "you". It doesn't happen quickly. Also, get that knee looked at and take it easy.

A.K. Boomer
10-30-2006, 09:44 AM
He didn't die from the impact, but bled to death. Sorry, that was a cut and paste from a different article, and of course this has nothing to do with helmets.

"Mallard told Fort Worth police she sporadically went into the garage to "check" on Biggs. She said she apologized in earnest for what she had done but ignored his plea for help."
"According to the affidavit, Mallard told the women that she waited a couple of days for Biggs to die before two male friends expunged his body and dumped it in a nearby park. She said she planned to torch the car and buy a new one after she received her income tax refund."

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/p/parks/03/parks062803.htm



That is unbelievable ----- It just blows me away, That fuqing lady should be tortured not just put in jail, she's got to be right up there with the worlds biggest loser, what a heartless bitch...... now im upset that its true, Evan, the discussion went from crashes to helmets to seat belts to windshields to this, it happens all the time - deal with it - or need i bring up some worse off topic disscusions in which you were the ring leader?

Slow twitch, I dont wear steel toe shoes, half the time when the type of machining permits im barefooted in my basement shop, I have to keep the floor real clean cuz i get an occasional chip in my foot, if you go around dropping stuff on your foot all the time then by all means wear the steel toe shoes, I for one dont have that problem so its worth it to me to be barefooted because i like being barefooted, and its not like my feet are all gangly and stuff , the ladies tell me iv got the best looking feet theve ever seen on a guy, I attribute that to not having them in cages all the time:D

A.K. Boomer
10-30-2006, 09:53 AM
At the point about 20 years ago when my gluten intolerance was at it's worst I was down to 130 lbs and I am 6' 2". I was slowly starving to death no matter how much I ate.


So what does this have to do with helmets:p Just kidding, I am curious about your gluten intolerance, If you could eat lots and not gain then it must have been going right through you (the squirts?) Ok, now we are officially off topic and i will take full responcibility.

Evan
10-30-2006, 10:12 AM
Gluten intolerance is cause by an enzyme deficiency that makes the gut incapable of breaking down gluten proteins (mainly gliadin) in wheat, rye, barley or oats. These proteins are toxic to the gut lining if not properly deconstructed. They wipe out the lining of the gut so food cannot be digested correctly. This results in eventual malnutrition about the same as simply starving.

I know what it is like to be truly hungry. Feeling well fed isn't just a matter of having a full stomach. At times my ketone levels were off the scale meaning my body was living by digesting muscles. I had NO fat and my cholesterol levels were lower than a starving Biafran.

This isn't easily diagnosed in the west as real starvation isn't common. The symptoms don't point to a specific cause and back then there was no simple test for it.

A.K. Boomer
10-30-2006, 10:18 AM
Thats heavy duty, all you have to say is 130 lb. on a 6'2" frame, glad you found out what is going on, I had a bout with getting to thin and get a little freaked out when i dip below 170, iv been everywhere from 145 to 190 and im 5'9"...

A.K. Boomer
10-30-2006, 10:36 AM
Holy toledo Bill,,, I just went back to page 5 cuz things werent adding up, i thought you weighed 230, 230 is what you lost! its obvious with a loss like that that you know what your doing , dont stop, I hope you can find a way to keep moving --- kudo's to you and all your efforts, I look at all the things people are up against in life, weight/quitting smoking/ drinking too much and not getting enough exersize ------- it all starts with one thing, your brain, if somebody wants it that bad then it will happen, its kinda like throwing a switch in your head, its tough to turn that switch on but once you do then it gets very easy, where the mind goes the body will follow...

BillH
10-30-2006, 12:03 PM
Holy toledo Bill,,, I just went back to page 5 cuz things werent adding up, i thought you weighed 230, 230 is what you lost! its obvious with a loss like that that you know what your doing , dont stop, I hope you can find a way to keep moving --- kudo's to you and all your efforts, I look at all the things people are up against in life, weight/quitting smoking/ drinking too much and not getting enough exersize ------- it all starts with one thing, your brain, if somebody wants it that bad then it will happen, its kinda like throwing a switch in your head, its tough to turn that switch on but once you do then it gets very easy, where the mind goes the body will follow...
Bingo, it is a mental game more than anything else.