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capperbar
12-17-2006, 09:40 PM
We are getting an old Turner ship saw up and running to cut new futtocks (sections of sawn frames in a ship). Goes through 6" green oak like butter. The wheels are about 42". Hasn't been used or cared for for years. Other than cleaning off the old dried grease what do you lubricate these with? The table slides on ways as the blade is tilted. And a large bull? gear drives a rack to slide the table. The concern is with all the sawdust do you use grease or way oil or?
Thanks Dave

Steambuilder
12-17-2006, 10:26 PM
My guess woulbbe to use oil on the ways. Grease would tend to trap the sawdust and make a real nice grinding compound where oil will tend to flow off and take the sawdust with it.

Errol Groff
12-17-2006, 10:32 PM
Why not contact Mystic Seaport, Mystic CT? They very well may have a similar saw or at least would have some suggestions about lubrication of same.

http://www.mysticseaport.org/index.cfm

I have a friend who works at the Seaport but it is a bit late for phoning her this evening. I will try to remember to get in touch with her tomorrow, she may know who to talk to.

wierdscience
12-17-2006, 10:47 PM
The open gears would use dry lube.We used to use a shopbrew mix on open sawmill gearing.It was Ivory bar soap ground up and mixed with black graphite.A small amount of water was added in the mixing to form a thick paste.It would be brushed on after which the water would evaporate and leave the soap and graphite mix.It worked good for slow moving items like the gears on carrage knees.

The slide ways unser the table I would just use way oil and not much off it.It's not like you will be moving it 3,000' feet per day.

A.K. Boomer
12-18-2006, 01:12 AM
I wouldnt hesitate to try some whale blubber if you have some handy, the blubber wont generally attract a bunch of the dust but when needed it will squish oil from itself and keep the parts lubricated without any worries about moisture,, regards A.K.

Forrest Addy
12-18-2006, 01:50 AM
What a buncha weenies. You lubricate a ship saw with helpers and apprentices: "Slip under there kid, and tell me if the quadrant pinion has any backlash." Then ignoring the screams, jog the tilt.

Your Old Dog
12-18-2006, 08:24 AM
What a buncha weenies. You lubricate a ship saw with helpers and apprentices: "Slip under there kid, and tell me if the quadrant pinion has any backlash." Then ignoring the screams, jog the tilt.

How did I get lucky enough not to work in your shop? :D :D

john hobdeclipe
12-18-2006, 10:13 AM
The guys over at http://www.owwm.com/ may have some info that would help. They have a machine manufacturer's list with a lot of info, plus a discussion group of fairly knowledgeable folks, all oriented around old woodworking machines. I remember seeing a couple of discussions about ship saws.

A.K. Boomer
12-18-2006, 10:38 AM
What a buncha weenies. You lubricate a ship saw with helpers and apprentices: "Slip under there kid, and tell me if the quadrant pinion has any backlash." Then ignoring the screams, jog the tilt.



Forrest has kind of "dated" himself with this one but for back in the day he is correct, before the introduction of whale blubber it was common practice to have a ratio of one fat kid and two regulars, two to work the saw and one to lubricate it, I only know about this barbaric technique because I found it in some old google archives that have since been erased:o

TGTool
12-18-2006, 11:01 AM
I wouldnt hesitate to try some whale blubber if you have some handy, the blubber wont generally attract a bunch of the dust but when needed it will squish oil from itself and keep the parts lubricated without any worries about moisture,, regards A.K.

Yes, an excellent point. Perhaps a followup question would be what are the lubricating properties of the flies the whale blubber would attract.

A.K. Boomer
12-18-2006, 11:30 AM
Yes, an excellent point. Perhaps a followup question would be what are the lubricating properties of the flies the whale blubber would attract.


H.F. still has those electric fly swatters on sale for only 2.99 plus shipping, They have a bleedown resistor in them (for safety) and I have removed mine so now i give it a three second charge and its good till you swat a fly even 5 or 10 minutes later, really saves on batteries, before you had to hold the charge button down while chasing the fly --- Some Nag-champa insense is what i use upstairs in the house to "mask" the smell, dont even bother trying to get the basement to smell good, eat a few sardines for breakfast and you wont even notice the smell of dead fish the rest of the day, Regards...

capperbar
12-18-2006, 11:44 AM
Thanks to all, Boys of the right temperment are hard to find for lubrication now days. I will try some way oil and the soap graphite mixture. Also the links are great. Tonight I'll followup and see what they offer.
The extra help on old time lubing techniques was a nice way to start my day.
Try the link to WWW.Schoonerzodiac.com to see what we are working on.
Thanks to all.
Dave

Ian B
12-18-2006, 12:21 PM
I can understand the difficulties in finding a suitable boy to rub on the blade. You really need someone who's oily, and of no other particular value.

Can you get your hands on a politician?

Ian

thistle
12-18-2006, 01:44 PM
you could always try on of the dry film moly chain lubes - like for motorcycles-i have used this on the gears of one my machines works ok .
now pictures of the boat yer building !

Evan
12-18-2006, 01:55 PM
I see no problem using oil and lots of it. It mixes with the sawdust real well. Back when I sold used cars for a time it did a fine job of quieting down noisy differentials.

Fasttrack
12-18-2006, 05:15 PM
I see no problem using oil and lots of it. It mixes with the sawdust real well. Back when I sold used cars for a time it did a fine job of quieting down noisy differentials.


lmao - thats how you know it came from a dealership; you crack open the differential case and a thick glob of sawdust and oil comes out... too cheap to use the lucas additive or, heaven forbid, fix the darn thing!

A.K. Boomer
12-18-2006, 06:42 PM
I hope he was jokeing -- i really do hope he was jokeing...

Evan
12-18-2006, 06:46 PM
:D

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/pixel.gif

wierdscience
12-18-2006, 08:33 PM
I hope he was jokeing -- i really do hope he was jokeing...

Of course he is joking,banana peels are what your supposed to use:D

Errol Groff
12-18-2006, 10:33 PM
My friend at Mystic Seaport sent me this information:

I called the shipyard and was told that you should use a 10 weight non-detergent (available through the MacMaster Carr catalog) or it that's too thin, a 30 weight, available at NAPA.
Hope that helps!

capperbar
12-19-2006, 01:15 AM
Errol,
Thanks for the help and tracking down your friend at Mystic. Amazing place. Friday I will wash it down well with some 30wt. and keep at it till it is cleaned out. Next problem is to get the lower blade guide to work right.
Dave

thistle
12-19-2006, 10:41 AM
In case youhave not seen this oil treatise in the archives, I humbly submit this for your perusal, I of course am just regurgitating what I copied and pasted from the metalworking dropbox,it is not my work, but that of another learned gentleman.

it might be of some help understanding oil.


33. What kind of oil should I use on my lathe/mill?

This is certainly a frequently asked question! The first answer is to
use whatever the manufacturer's manual suggests, presuming you have
a manual for your machine.

Feed-screw threads, half nuts, back gears and similar are usually
lubricated with a heavy oil such as Vactra 2 or 3, or grease if
protected from chips and swarf. Some suggest a mixture of oil and
STP oil treatment. (South Bend recommends the same oil as used on
the ways).

Beds and "ways" are often treated with special oils, called "way oils".
ISO 68 (medium weight). Examples: Exxon Febis K 68, Shell Tona T-68,
Sun way lube 1180, Mobil Vactra No 2, Texaco Way lube 68, Gulf Gulfway
68, Chevron Vistac 68X.

Spindle bearings call for "spindle oil" such as Exxon Nutto H32,
Shell Tellus V32, BP HLP32, Castrol Hyspin AWS32, and Mobil DTE 32
(in this case the 32 is the ISO VG32 spec, about the same as SAE
10-weight, and is what Myford recommends for their lathes). ISO
grade 22 is also used (it's what South Bend recommends, for example).

All three types are available from the better supply outfits,
such as MSC. Remember that the money you spend on proper oils will
be a lot less than the cost of replacing the machine!

That's a lot of names, but how do you choose? Probably the first
thing to do is follow the manufacturer's recommendations, if you
can find them.

South Bend, for example, recommends four different lubricants for
their 9" and 10" lathes: CE1671 bed way lube, CE1603 medium machine
oil, CE-1600 light machine oil, and CE1625 teflon grease. These are
available from South Bend, and the discussion and tables below
should allow you to choose an equivalent oil available from an
industrial supply house.

Failing a manufacturer's recommendation, a key issue is typically
the viscosity. There are a number of ways of describing viscosity,
most of them confusing. We will now make a quick attempt to remove
some of this confusion.

Machinery's Handbook has a nice section that goes into the different
kinds of oil performance for lubrication and how viscosity changes
with temperature. But it's not really detailed enough to make
a practical choice.

Most people are familiar with the SAE viscosity scale, because most
people have bought oil for their cars. What isn't immediately apparent
is that there are two SAE scales, both in common use: one for crankcase
oils, and one for gear oils! There is an ISO scale (VG numbers) and there
is the Saybolt scale. Let's start with the Saybolt scale, which is
measured with something called the "Saybolt Universal Viscometer":

In said viscometer, the oil flows through a tube 0.1765 cm in
diameter, 1.225 cm long, under an average head of 7.36 cm, from
a vessel 2.975 cm diameter. The time in seconds required for 60 cc of
oil to flow through the tube is the viscosity in seconds Saybolt.
The specification is typically given at a particular temperature,
such as 100 degF or 210 degF. (Something tells me that the numbers
in the description above were originally English units, not metric.)

With that description of Saybolt Universal Seconds (SUS) in mind,
let's look at the SAE scales. First, for the crankcase scale:

SAE SUS @ 100F SUS @ 210 F
5 92 38.5
10 165 44
20 340 54
30 550 64
40 850 77
50 1200 93

In addition, "Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers",
Eighth Edition, lists the following for Crankcase Oils:

SAE SUS @ 210 F
20 45 min - 58 max
30 58 min - 70 max
40 70 min - 85 max
50 85 min - 110 max

But it goes on to show the following for gear and transmission oils:

SAE SUS at 210 F
75 40 min
90 49 min
85 63 min
90 74 min - 120 max
140 120 min - 200 max
350 200 min

So you can see that the viscosity at 210 F for SAE 80W gear oil is
about the same as SAE 20W crankcase oil.

Finally, there's the ISO VG scale. From perusing a number of Mobil
oil data sheets, it appears that the ISO VG value of an oil is
exactly its viscosity in centiStokes at 40 degC. Unfortunately,
the relationship between cSt at 40 deg C and SUS at 100 degF is
not a linear one. But you can find a fairly complete table
of tradeoffs at http://www.bconnex.net/~noco/nocovisc.htm.
Here's an abbreviated version that relates cSt and SUS @ 100 degF:

cSt SUS at 100 degrees F

10 58.91
15 77.39
20 97.77
25 119.3
30 141.3
35 163.7
40 186.3
45 209.1
50 232.1
55 255.2
60 278.3
65 301.4
70 324.4
75 347.6
80 370.8
85 393.9
90 417.1
95 440.3
100 463.5

(Taken from ASTM Table 1, D2161-63T)

Also, SUS at any temperature is SUS at 100F multiplied by
1 + (t-100)0.000064

ie 58.91 SUS at 100F is 58.91x(1.007)= 59.32 at 212 F

To pull this all together, let's look at some specific examples.
Above, we mentioned the South Bend recommended oils. Not only does
SBL give part numbers, but they give viscosities in SUS at 100 degF:

Usage SBL p/n SUS @ 100 F ISO VG SAE (crankcase)
light spindle CE1600 100 21 5
medium machine CE1602 150-240 30-55 10-20
way lube CE1603 250-500 57-100 20-30

Thus, a good substitute for SBL CE1600 would be Mobil Velocite No. 10,
which is an ISO VG 22 spindle oil. Mobil Vactra No. 2, ISO VG 68, is
probably a good substitute for SBL CE1603 - it matches the viscosity
and is formulated as a way lube (has appropriate coolant separability
and corrosion resistance).

Now, multigrade motor lubricants are not recommended as machine oils.
This is for two reasons: 1. Motor oils have additive packages that are
designed to avoid corrosion and condensation problems that are unique
to the heat cycle and high-temp operation of an engine, problems
that are not found in machine tools. 2. Modern motor oils have detergents
that keep the contaminants in suspension (so they can be removed by
the oil filter) - most machine tools do not have a filter system,
so the contaminants will be circulated around to the bearing surfaces
rather than falling out of suspension to the bottom of the gear case.

That being said, there are several people on the list who are
very happy using Mobil 1 motor oil as spindle and countershaft
lubricants. The 5W-30 oil is approximately the right viscosity for
spindle bearings, and the 15W-50 is heavy enough for countershafts
and gearboxes. (Remember that Mobil 1 is a detergent oil, and it has
been recommended that it should be changed a couple of times a year
to flush suspended particles). The final choice is up to you, of
course. Machine oils have their own special additive packages geared
towards the requirements of machining.

Now that you've made a decision about what oil to use, how do
you oil it? Most lubrication charts assume production use,
and give oiling intervals accordingly. I prefer to spend five
minutes oiling the machine every time I use it, just to make sure
everything is wet and topped off.

A suggestion I've read is to oil lathe ways before using, to clean off
dust/grunge that may have accumulated since you last used it. After
work is finished, wipe off but leave a film for rust prevention.

Elsewhere we mentioned the book "A Brief treatise on Oiling Machine
Tools" (Guy Lautard) but nobody's posted a review yet.

I has also been suggested that the FAQ from rec.motorcycles can shed
more

Swarf&Sparks
12-19-2006, 11:27 AM
Get with the times! Sawdust and banana peel, please!
Strips of nylon shirt in the diff :D