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AJA
01-05-2007, 08:00 PM
Does anyone know the profile of the spline for a Ford 31 tooth splined axle?
Thanks
AJA

torker
01-05-2007, 08:45 PM
Yup...weirdscience here has done them. He should be along shortly.
Also...if you go to the "pirate" bbs...there's a guy there (Duffy) who goes under the name D.D. Machine. He makes a cutter for verticle mills that used an insert. Not sure if he's still making them but the cutters where about $140 or so...I can't remember.
Russ

Nutter
01-05-2007, 08:56 PM
The DD machine cutter is for a 30 deg spline, like a Dana axle. I've got one, it works great. It uses TPG inserts.

I haven't done and Ford 9" stuff yet, but my understanding is that the 9" uses 45 deg splines. You'd want something like a 45 degree chamfering mill that uses SPG inserts. Somebody let me know if I'm wrong on that.

As far as Pirate goes, you have to buy a membership to use their search function. Google works for this too, and it's cheaper. Whatever you, don't show up on the Pirate4x4.com board and ask a question that has been asked 1000 time before on your first post ;)

AJA
01-06-2007, 07:48 PM
Thanks for the help guys. From what I can measure it is not a 45. I will try Google
AJA

BadDog
01-06-2007, 08:01 PM
Eh, what happened to my post? Was I dreaming that I responded earlier? I must have posted since Nutter appears to be responding to part of it regarding Pirate4x4 (and he's absolutely right). So did it get deleted? If so, why?

topct
01-06-2007, 08:23 PM
Eh, what happened to my post? Was I dreaming that I responded earlier? I must have posted since Nutter appears to be responding to part of it regarding Pirate4x4 (and he's absolutely right). So did it get deleted? If so, why?

This topic got on here twice? Your post was deleted along with the duplicate?

torker
01-07-2007, 12:13 AM
Eh, what happened to my post? Was I dreaming that I responded earlier? I must have posted since Nutter appears to be responding to part of it regarding Pirate4x4 (and he's absolutely right). So did it get deleted? If so, why?
Russ...Yer dreamin....you answered this over on the Chaski board...not here :D
You're welcome!
Russ

BadDog
01-07-2007, 02:21 AM
(voice=Cheech Marin) Wow man, thought I was havin' flash backs or somethin'...

torker
01-09-2007, 01:50 AM
Well...look what I found...Duffy is making 45* cutters now. For Ford/Toyota/14 bolt axles.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-219732.html

BadDog
01-09-2007, 02:00 AM
Funny, I was just talking to a friend today about those very cutters. :D

Very neat little tool for those getting into custom axles. However, be aware that it is not perfect and is far inferior to top line custom axle shops which roll/hobb the splines. That produces a harder and tougher spline as well as a more accurate profile. However, as long as the spline is not the weakest point (say putting GM Corp 10.5" (14FF) axles into a Ford 9" or Dana 60 housing) or you are well into over kill territory anyway, then who cares?

Your Old Dog
01-09-2007, 07:00 AM
(voice=Cheech Marin) Wow man, thought I was havin' flash backs or somethin'...

ROFLAMO ! :D

Ironland Spline
01-09-2007, 11:10 AM
There's a difference between "rolled" and "hobbed" splines. Hobbed are cut whereas rolled are embossed like a straight knurl. Both acheive the involute form profile via the rolling motion. But you cannot roll a form onto a hardened axle shaft! You must anneal; roll form; then re-heattreat! But you don't have to go through all of that to acheive a more than acceptable result from an already heattreated axle! You can cut or form grind the spline form! As far as the Ford 9" axles are concerned I have form ground many; both 28 and 31 spline. The pressure angle of the original rolled spline form is 43* for the 28 spline and 42* for the 31 spline. Many guys use Bridgeports with holders armed with the SPG431 inserts which are close enough at a 45* pressure angle. Even the top line production axle re-spliner in the States, Moser Engineering, mills the spline forms with square inserts. This is why their work, as well as everyone else's who trys milling the splines into a hardened axle, is chattered (and in many cases- badly chattered). The axles have a good hard .100" case on them! If you want to do a nice job on them- then form grind the splines! I use a spline grinding machine. But you can use a surface grinder also as long as the table is large or heavy enough to handle swinging the flange off the end.

Howard

BadDog
01-09-2007, 01:02 PM
Should have said rolled OR hobbed, I know they are different, I just wasn’t clear. Rolled is always preferred to hobbed. Both get the correct form but only Rolled gets the other benefits. Oh well.

I like the idea of roughing it out and then form grinding the splines. Hmmm...

But I wouldn't call Moser "the top line axle respliner in the States". Far from it, they are a joke among the off-road crowd. Apparently their stuff works well in drag racing, it must have since it seems that's where they made their name, but searching Moser on any hard core rock crawling (among other) sites will show many problems with Moser axles (check Pirate4x4.com for one). Not only problems with breaking them, but what appear to be clear hardness problems (based on twisted splines and other pics posted), and also a complete lack of credibility on their “warranty”. As far as I’m aware, there is no motor sport out there that is harder on axles than rock crawling, and the serious rock crawlers don’t use Moser. I’m not saying this to be difficult or disagreeable, only to suggest that anyone who comes across this post do their homework VERY carefully before dealing with Moser. Superior and others make a far superior (pun) project based on what I’ve seen in AZ rock crawling (talking to the pros and amateurs who wheel out here) and read on the web (nation wide and beyond).

As for lack of criticality in the pressure angle, can’t say I would agree on that either, based on my limited research on the topic some years ago. But from your handle, it would seem that perhaps you likely know more than I do on the matter, so I’ll leave it at that.

Hmmm, it now dawns on me that you may just be talking about ONLY re-splining, such as what an HSM would do in their home shop. Not the rest of the process required for superior work (anealing, heat treat, and proper shaft form to reduce stress risers), or the alloy axles which are reportedly junk. If so, then I suppose that maybe they can do as good a job as a HSM can do. I’m in the market now for a set of the high zoot “alloy axles” for my Dana 60 (which snaps Dana 70 shafts like tooth picks) and Moser is NOT on my list of potential vendors. Superior, USA Alloys, and even the Yukon imports are regarded much more highly. Seems I read Moser was getting out of that market anyway, maybe they did? I really want the Superiors since they always roll and make what is regarded as THE best axle among those I've spoken with, but they also come with THE biggest price tag! :eek: USA Alloy is quite a bit cheaper, with a top notch warranty rep, so I may go with them...

torker
01-09-2007, 03:21 PM
Or you could just pick up this little beauty and hack the splines yerself :D
http://cgi.ebay.ca/HP-TOWNSEND-MODEL-M-80-DUPLEX-SPLINE-MILL-1984_W0QQitemZ200064711382QQihZ010QQcategoryZ12584 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem

wierdscience
01-09-2007, 09:19 PM
Hell it's a cake walk to re-spline axles,I don't even do it anymore since Moser and others do it so cheap and it's stone boring.I never did anything fancy,I just single point fly cut them with a braxed point tool profiled to fit the existing spline.It's slow,but effective and doesn't cost a ton of money.

Indexing,the best Idea I ever got was from our own David Cofer,use an old spider gear to index the new spline before cutting off the old.Them old boys from Gawja is smart.

The Dana and Ford axles are dead soft in the center an cased about .100" deep on the radius.This is the proper way to build an axle or gear,soft in the cent to take shock and hard on the outside to tolerate wear and reduce deformation.

The trick to making a good axle after a respline would be to re-harden them.That requires an induction hardening setup and I don't have the time.

We don't see many re-splining jobs here anymore,everybody serious is running full floaters and the street rod guys are now old and building cruisers.

Nutter
01-09-2007, 11:35 PM
I agree, there's no money in it and it's tedious. I only spline shafts for my own super low-buck projects and maybe a few here and there for close friends who are too cheap for their own good. I didn't even spline my own for my rock Jeep. Dutchman does custom length 4340 front shafts for only a little more than the price of a blank, so why bother?

Ironland Spline
01-10-2007, 11:02 AM
My axle re-splining customers are mostly drag racers, and they almost exclusively utilize the Ford 9" axles, which is what this thread is about. Indeed the circle track guys are reticent to use the Ford 9" due to their tendency to migrate out of the housing because they are not "c" clipped in place. But for drag racing they work great! And guys continue to constantly utilize them for that purpose. As for rock climbing I have no knowledge nor opinion. Furthermore, you will not find a "re-splining" service supplier who does more Ford 9" axles in the states than does Moser Engineering. I am not promoting their work- I am not a drag racer- but I am their competitor. They are the top re-splining service supplier in the states. But they do not form grind; they mill their spline forms and the forms look bad! And the tolerances are also bad! I can also tell you from years of experience that you never need to "rough-out" an axle spline in form grinding it. It is just not at all necessary. It's the same with spline broaches which I also manufacture. With a 32A60J vitrified wheel (gray, not white wheel), I can completely form grind to depth, without coolant, a 31 spline Ford 9" axle in 15 minutes. We never rough out the splines in our broaches eithe- whether the broach is .250" diameter, or 8" in diameter, we form grind the splines to depth- even with T-15 tool steel at 72RC (under coolant of course)! I also contend the idea that rolling a spline form is better than cutting or grinding it. If better means faster than I would conceed. But to me faster is not always better! The reason that spline forms are rolled is basic economics- it's faster and easier on a production basis. But rolling is like knurling- it cold forms the material, and induces much more stress into the active feature of the piece, and the splines can and often are more brittle as a result. Form grinding and cutting the splines is much more preferred, and that is why most splines are produced by cutting and grinding, than by rolling. Tolerances are also an issue with roll forming. Grab a dozen Ford 9" 31 or 28 spline axles and a pair of .075" gage pins and take a few measurements over the rolls and watch as you discover as much as an .008" difference between the axles. I consistently hold .002" tolerances over the rolls with form grinding, with very little effort!

This is from experience, not speculation, nor conjecture. After all, spline work is my business!

Howard

torker
01-10-2007, 12:57 PM
Howard...Thanks for your input! Nice to see a guy like you share info with us "Home Shop" guys ! :D
Russ

BadDog
01-10-2007, 02:51 PM
Yes, as Torker said, thanks for participating here. Please don't take my lack of agreement as lack of appreciation for your information. :D

Obviously I don't have the background to seriously debate this with you, heck, I barely rate "novice HSM" status, but it's somewhat surprising that your description of pro/con and splining tech in general runs almost point for point counter to the accumulated conventional wisdom of the rock crawlers (at least as it existed back when I was researching axle options). I recall that several MEs and the like who were well respected in the group gave several quite in-depth discussions on the benefits and trade-offs of splining methods as well as criticality of the form itself and so on. And rolling splines faired far better than just being a production speed benefit...

Oh well, I've heard far too much bad press from rock crawling professionals and hard-core wheelers to ever consider Moser (who certainly seems well loved in the drag race crowd <shrug>). And, now that you mention it, I do recall statements to the affect that the splines from Moser looked like they had been (IIRC) "gnawed by an angry beaver". :D A quick search seems to indicate that Superior is still considered THE best axle (and they roll almost every spline I'm told) in my area of interest. Oh well...