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View Full Version : 5c collet chuck Yeah or Neah



cybor462
01-06-2007, 01:25 AM
I think I asked before but no one was interested then. I hope boredom has overcome some so they may offer some help this time. I bought a lever operated 5c collet chuck from Grizzly for my G4003 lathe.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G4003

That is the link for the pic and also specs.

Anyway I thought the lever closer would be neat. After setting it up and running it for a few days I took it off and on the bench it sits. It shakes so bad it rattles the lathe even at speeds under 200 rpm's.

My question is this normal for this type of chuck or is it junk?

It seems to me the design is the trouble as it has so many joints and the knuckle that is part of the release lever spins with the spindle. There is no way it could be balanced that I can tell so I feel it is what it is. Wanted to have some real wisdom so I can call Grizzly and see what they will do. Also are there other types of collet chucks I can get? I know little to nothing about collet chucks so I ask for help.

torker
01-06-2007, 01:49 AM
Shouldn't you have put up this link?
http://www.grizzly.com/products/h5948
Just a wild guess that it's the same :D

Tin Falcon
01-06-2007, 01:51 AM
"It shakes so bad it rattles the lathe even at speeds under 200 rpm's."
Sounds like something is loose in there no expert but these things have been used on screw nachines for a long time for production work. I have never used the lever type only the handle /drawbar type there should be an adpter from 5-c to 5mT or whatever it is. You did not forget to put it in did you ? check your set up somthing is wrong either with the part itself or the install. I would think a 5c lever should work like a dream. The other thought is can you move the tailstock end if the support collar on the back end does not fit properly this could be your problem . Is this made for your lathe or is it adapable to several models?
Tin

Mark Hockett
01-06-2007, 01:57 AM
cybor462,
I have a Royal lever collet closer that I purchased new last year. One of the set up operations when installing it was to center the hub on the end of the spindle with a dial indicator. If it is not centered the closer will rattle like crazy. Even with it centered it will still make some noise at high rpms. I tend to run my lathe at or close to max rpm (1800) most of the time, so the noise was there much of the time. I have since changed the lever closer to a pneumatic one and no more noise. I also have an import lever collet closer on my smaller lathe. It makes less noise than the Royal lever closer.

I would check the run out on the hub before I call Grizzly.

Bguns
01-06-2007, 02:39 AM
I have the same lathe and closer, No wobble at all . Did you follow the instructions (goofy as they are) ? The main problem I have had is the two set screws that lock the adapter on tail end of spindle must be tight, or else the whole works unscrews and binds everything up. Be sure to clean out the threads in the end of spindle before mounting adapter, a chip in there will cock adapter and cause problems. It always runs smooth/true even wide open. I will convert it to a wheel style tho, because it takes so long dinking with the lever mount (change gear cover nut swap) and getting the screws adjusted that fit in the engage bearing). It is tricky getting it set up and getting the proper amount of grab on the collets with out being so far out that the locking pin comes out of the collar/rear spindle adapter. Sometimes have to run collet threads deeper or shallower into collet closer tube and readjust at rear adjuster.

cybor462
01-06-2007, 10:25 AM
Torker ,,well I put the lathe pic up but was unable to find the collet chuck that I have on their web page. It is somewhat like the one you posted but it is slightly different. My closer is a G4026 looks like the linkage is different. If you know how to get to it please post the link.

Tin,, nice to hear from you,, I am not sure what you mean "tailstock end" this is mounted in the spindle Headstock, maybe I am lost though. Yes it is made for this lathe.

Bgun,, your the man! You better run and hide as I now have someone with my exact machine I can ask questions of. To answer your question I did follow their directions with setup and wow yes you are so right about getting it adjusted to close properly. It seems I spend forever getting it right but then it closes fine all the time until you change out the work material and then you tinker all over again.
I made sure the setscrews were tight never had a problem there. Just seems the bearing and the engagement hub wobble like mad. I do not see any way of truing it.
You mention wheel type, which model or make would I need for this lathe?
Does Grizzly have one. I asked them when I got this if this is all they offer and they did not seem to know.
Grizzly tech's are real pleasent but for some reason do not seem to really know the products they sell.
I will tell you one thing I love this lathe, it beats the Smithy I had hands down. This one is like a modern automobile with its dependability and the Smithy was like a model A Ford always breaking down. Yes they still both are cars but I would take a modern day car for dependability anyday.
I hope I did not offend any model A owners.:o or Smithy owners for that matter!
I would really like to know about this wheel type you mention.


Jim

cybor462
01-06-2007, 10:31 AM
Torker I am sorry. I found my closer but they use the same pic as the one you posted. The pic is wrong. If you look in Grizzly's new 2007 catalog page 591 you will see my closer. My bearing hub is different and so is the linkage.:confused:

JCHannum
01-06-2007, 10:44 AM
The handwheel drawbar uses a fixed handwheel at the outboard end of the headstock to draw the collet in. These are simpler and less expensive than the lever type. They are much better suited to the home shop for one or two off applications. The lever type can be a headache to install, set up and remove when not needed. It is best suited for large runs of similar sized parts is being made.

This is a recent auction for a handwheel closer;
http://cgi.ebay.com/HARDINGE-Lathe-collet-Closer-5C-NEW_W0QQitemZ120067310916QQihZ002QQcategoryZ104241 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120 067310916

John R
01-06-2007, 10:51 AM
I bought a lever closer with my new Grizzly 14" lathe...never could get it to work and neither could Grizzly. They gave me my money back and I built my own hand wheel type. It works fine .
John R

nheng
01-06-2007, 10:59 AM
Cybor462, this may have been mentioned but do you have an adapter on the rear of the spindle? Is it the right one for the machine? On Royal's closers, they spec a close fit (< 0.0005" ??) for this part to the spindle rear bore. Any adapter/bushing required for your machine from the closer tube OD to your spindle ID?

After reading thru the posts here about inconsistent closer behavior, I can only offer one comment to others thinking about buying a closer ... BUY AMERICAN.

You can pick up a Royal on ebay, perhaps even new, for less than the price of the Grizzly import. Operation is smooth, dependable and sweet ! This is why the closer came to be in the first place. At most, a minor adjustment at the tail end involves a one finger press and rotate to the next or previous index slot for the grip desired. Other than that, you get smooth quiet operation up to around 4,000 RPM or so.

Only problem is, hurry fast 'cause Royal dropped out of the manual closer market this year.

<edited to convert from an unintended hijack to try and help OP :) >

A.K. Boomer
01-06-2007, 11:05 AM
They dont all rattle, my friends hardinge super precision is good through all rpms but it is a "chucker lathe" to begin with so the chucker arm is not mounted on there as an afterthought, He also has an MSC that he mounts a chucker arm on and its no where near as stable and balanced but its not a rattle box either --- do what Mark stated, indicate it, check out a few other things like straightness and uniform wall thickness for balance -- there is a simple reason or reasons why this is happening and it should not be to hard to track down...

cybor462
01-06-2007, 03:46 PM
nheng,, Yes it has an adapter that threads on the rear of the spindle tube. It turns in or out to adjust. The problem I see is that the entire tail end of the closer/lever end is out of round. It shakes rattles and rolls. Not much I can do to fix it nor do I have any want to after buying it new for 300.00 I will call Grizzly and see what they say. I may have just got a bad one. It uses cast pieces that are not equal in dia. and really wobble. The bearing hub also wobbles so it is a lose situation. I just did not know how these were supposed to be although I knew it should not have been that bad. I always ask before sending something back in case I may have missed something.

Thanks for all your help. I did go to Royals web site and from what I read there are certain specs that have to be met with their closers. Not sure if buying one from Ebay would be the way to go. Royal has a form to fill out to order it giving many dimensions of your machine. Not sure if you could get that info on the closer from an ebay auction.

Alistair Hosie
01-06-2007, 04:02 PM
I bought this one as it came with a di-4" chuck fitting it is a beauty not ried it yet as I got it for xmas Alistair



http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/index.html?http%3A//www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_5C_Collets_Racks___Fixtures_60.h tml&CatalogBody

beckley23
01-06-2007, 06:04 PM
There are 2 screws on the handlever with jam nuts for attachment to the bearing. I have found that if these screws get loose, the handlever will vibrate, also vibrates if any part of the linkage gets too loose. Alignment is very critical to the proper performance of the closer.
Harry

Bguns
01-06-2007, 06:33 PM
I am sitting here holding the closer...........The most obvious thing I can think of is, your draw tube is bent. Lightly chuck it up in the lathe and steady and see if it spins true. All the rotating parts are round, so its hard to see how one could be off. The adapter that screws into tail end of spindle should not show more than a little runout when screwed in and locked with 2 setcrews from end. Grab drawtube and bearing assy while it is out of lathe and spin Bearing and taper (engagement ramp), the bearing and taper should spin true with no wobble. Next check the Large Round knurled pin lock/cam lever unit, spin it on the threads a short distance (and screw up your collet adjustment :) ) It also should not wobble. The drawtube is pretty thin, I almost bet its bent.....................A handwheel could be made to convert the existing tube to
wheel style, and add a thrust bearing. Just replace the big knurled cam assy with a wheel and thrust bearing. If that works, than chop off the extra 4 inch piece of drawtube that the lever closer slid on.

cybor462
01-06-2007, 08:26 PM
OK ,,, I need to apologize to everyone. My intention when I posted was to ask if this closer was defective and if it was I was going to return it. I know the closer is not right now and I was going to call Grizzly on Monday and see what they would do. NO NO NO NO NO!! I will not. I hope this does not get boring but I need to explain.

When I was young I would give a left nut to find out why things did what they did and also find out why they did not work. Almost all my jobs pertained to just that. I wanted to know why! And fix it!

Now I am much older, I do not have much time, my full time job is rush rush rush (real estate loan closer) on the road all day rushing from one job to the next. No 8-5 but 8 to midnight at times.

Lately I do not want to know why it is but how can I get someone to fix it, and that is WRONG!

The members of this board are always willing to help when asked, and with this thread as an example many have taken the time to look at their equipment in hopes they can help me find my problem.

Boys you did just that. The spirit of this board is to LEARN WHY or WHY NOT! All I wanted to learn was should I call it in or not and whether to return it. That goes against every fiber of this board. It degrades all those who take their precious time to help.

I will not do that to you guys who are so willing to help. I now want to know why this is like it is and see if I can fix it. Tomorrow I am going to go out to the shop armed with my camera, take your suggestions and see why the heck this is not working. ;)

Now this brings me to another question,,, I have a part chucked in my camlock chuck. If I release the cams leaving the part in the chuck do you think it will stay put and not change or move? I have a part in there that I need to finish before I unchuck it or it will be junk. I am turning an ID taper on a tube which is chucked on the ID of the tube and if I unchuck it now well it will not be pretty. I will not have time to finish it first and I want to fix this closer.

Has anyone done this? The chuck is a 6" and if I dial it in when I put it back on I feel it would be ok. What do you guys feel? I want to cheat the devil I am overdue:cool:

lane
01-06-2007, 10:04 PM
Just dont bump the part when you take the chuck off . It will stay true to the chuck and the chuck should go on and off and be in the same place every time . if every thing is clean No chip in the way. Take them on and off all the time with parts in them . No problem.

Bguns
01-06-2007, 10:10 PM
If you really want to be sure it stays in the same place, use a magic marker and mark spindle nose and chuck so it goes back in the exact same mounting holes.

A.K. Boomer
01-06-2007, 10:29 PM
Cybor, I admire your spirit, but take your time before you make a move on it, If your going to try and bring it around be sure that it can be done and also that your 100% satisfied with it otherwise dont touch a tool to it or they wont take it back, make sure that whatever is wrong can be delt with within the means of what you have to fix it... I hate this kind of stuff, its what seems to be going on everywhere, no follow through by many of the cheaper tool makers, good luck with it.:(

cybor462
01-07-2007, 10:55 AM
Good stuff guys. Thank you for the help with the chuck. I felt it would be ok to leave the part in. When I worked at Avco Lycoming did not have any camlocks so I never used them until I got this lathe. I love it.

Its 50* here this sunny morning so I am going out to partake in my other hobby with my son, clay shooting. Well shooting in general is the hobby, clays is just a part of it. When we get back I will start this closer adventure. I will keep you posted and will include pics.


Thanks

Jim

cybor462
01-07-2007, 09:30 PM
Ok here is what I found out,, First I can't shoot like I used to. Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.:mad:

But as far as the closer it is fine. I spun it up to 1400 rpm's and it was smooth as lumpy oatmeal in the winter.:rolleyes:

No really it was smooth. Ok so now you ask what was the trouble? Other than my lack of ability it was the Chinese. Go ahead and blame it on the Chinese. This time it is where it needs to go.

When I first installed the closer (those who have it you all know this) you have to remove the top cover stud and replace it with a larger dia. and longer one. The closer linkage mounts to it. When I was removing the stud I noticed it was quite bent. I did learn real quick why. The cover which is made out of fiberglass was moulded wrong and for it to fit they decided to bend the top stud rather than make a cover that was made right. Now this is no real big problem until you go to do something like add an accessory.

I had to really mess the cover up to get the adapter to half way fit when I first installed it.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f80/cybor462/l2.jpg

This is where I found my problem. If I run the closer with out the cover it works fine.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f80/cybor462/l1.jpg

If I put the cover on then mount the closer it holds the adapter out just far enough while it does not allow proper adjustment and the tube wobbles. I think a user mentioned the adapter,,right on the money!
I could totally grind the crap out of the cover but I will not. I think I agree with a couple others and will check into a wheel closer. I also saw a camlock version looks real nice. Not sure of cost but I will sell this one and hope it makes up for some of the cost of another style.

I really do not like this style as you could not open the back gear cover with the closer mounted and there is a lube point for the shaft that needs oiled daily. I thought of making some type of extended tube for it but now I think a different closer is in order.

I owe this brilliant feat of wisom and adventure to those here that opened my one bad eye and put a patch over the other:eek: but really I want to thank all of you.

I am going to be looking to buy a IC engine kit at CF so look out here comes more questions!

pcarpenter
01-08-2007, 11:56 AM
One alternative is to keep what you have...and use the 5MT-5C adaptor and just make a draw-tube assembly. As others said, it probably makes more sense to have this type closer for one-off stuff. If you keep the rest of the works you could re-mount it if and when you go to make a bunch of repetitive parts, then it may still make sense.

I do still see one source of wobble.....someone mentioned centering the piece on the tail of the spindle and you said something to the effect of "the setscrews are tight". Tight is one thing, centered is another. Most things that clamp on the tail of the spindle (like a spider) are not just bolted in place, but must be initially centered. That is, the "set screws" are not so much "set screws" as "adjusting screws".

cybor462
01-08-2007, 05:18 PM
pcarpenter,, Hi the set screws are there to move the hub not to center anything. The hub has a bore on each side for the setscrew to enter but not to be tight. The screws have jamb nuts which are to lock the screws in place. The procedure is to thread the screws in an even amount on both sides and let them touch the bottom of the bore. Then you back them out 1/8 of a turn then lock the jamb nut. All this is for so when you pull the handle the lever pushes or pulls the hub to lock or unlock the closer. This would not cause a wobble. For this to cause a wobble the setscrews would have to put a very heavy amount of force on the tube to cause it to flex or bend and then wobble. I do not see that happening and if you could make it happen you sure would know that was the problem.

My problem was the adapter which is supposed to be up tight against the spindle and then locked down was not because of the cover being made wrong. The adapter was pushing against it and was not contacting the spindle and may have been slightly angled because of it. Then the adjuster for the closer which goes over the adapter may have been pushed off center when tightened up to get closer set for the proper clamping pressure. If this adjuster was wedged it would cause everything past it to be out and I could easily see that being the cause. Without the cover the adapter sits flush against the spindle which allows the adjuster to do the same. I am convinced this was my trouble. The adjuster is not fixed and has a fair amount of play to cock if not set right.

I do not like having to run the lathe with out the cover as it could be a disaster in the making. Something fall off the lathe and get in to the belts or gears when running would be mess. The only way to fix the cover I have would be to grind the entire pocket out which is most of the strength and would leave much of the internals exposed anyway.

I guess I could always make a cover but I would opt to change the closer first.

I have not seen any closers as this was my first. To use what I have you said I would need to use the adapter 5MT to 5C which I have. Then make a tube I assume would be threaded on one end for the collet and would have to have some way to thread on the spindle at the rear. To release the work I would need to unscrew the tube and to tighten I would need to tighten the tube.

I want to check into the closers that are made for the camlock spindles. This seems to be the best as you do not have a tube to deal with. I am not sure how they lock the collets in place. Could someone explain how they work?

Thanks
Jim

pcarpenter
01-08-2007, 06:41 PM
Jim--there was an article on making a drawtube and all the rest of a collet closer in a recent copy of one of the magazines (I think). I am not sure though since I found a small stash of 2004 or so vintage HSM and Machinist Workshop that I had not even read...even one in the wrapper....from around the time we moved to our new house. I was like a kid at Christmas...but I digress.

Usually at the other end of the drawtube is a handwheel or hub of sorts to use for spinning the closer closed as well as a sort of ring with a relief that centers the works on the non business end of the spindle. The relief in the ring is cut so that it holds the works centered over the spindle bore on the tail end. No need to thread to the non-business end of the spindle. You just use a thrust bearing and the aforementioned ring to make tightening the hanwheel easy and in effect, the whole works is held in place by tension between the collet and the other end when all is tightened up.

Boy....I am not sure that makes sense, but perhaps someone will post a picture here. You might also search as someone in the not too distant past posted some pictures of their shop made collet closer of this sort, recently.

Paul

ulav8r
01-24-2007, 10:37 PM
Keep the closer you have and make Grizzly give you a new cover.

Bguns
01-24-2007, 11:00 PM
Yup get new cover from grizzly, bending stud to line up cover is not right.....
Chop old one out so you can use it with Lever adapter and use new one for non collet work. Fiberglass is fairly easy to redo and paint, if you want old one to look better.

BadDog
01-25-2007, 01:17 AM
Rockwell had a very nice setup for the collet machines using an optional gear train door that was in 2 pieces. The top piece covered down to the upper tumbler gears and was rigid mounted. The bottom was hinged with a latch. Otherwise, it looked like a standard 1 piece that someone had cut, though it was a completely different door. Shouldn't be too hard to manage this, and then you wouldn't need 2 doors.

bfburk
01-25-2007, 10:34 AM
Good thread. I built a collet closer using a machined 3MT to 5MT adaptor. I used some black iron pipe for the tube. I made a handwheel out of cast iron. My collet closer works fine. I looked at the Grizzly for a long time but wanted to try making one myself.

Cybor462 it looks like we are neighbors. I live in Jersey Shore and have a Grizzly 12x36 lathe, Grizzly mill-drill and a Grizzly 4x6 metal cutting bandsaw. I also have a MIG welder. I am retired and just putter around.

Did some shooting at Bodines several years ago but I was not very good. Good luck on your collet closer. I have had good luck with all my Grizzly equipment.:)