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View Full Version : Evan: What is the name of the super slippery stuf you told us about a while back.



garyphansen
01-09-2007, 08:27 PM
Or any one that remembers. Gary P. Hansen

Evan
01-09-2007, 08:40 PM
Polydimethylsiloxane oil.

Scatterplot
01-09-2007, 08:47 PM
What is that used for?

Evan
01-09-2007, 09:00 PM
It has many uses. It is available in various formulations with different viscosities, from nearly solid to very thin. It's what silly putty is made from, an example of extremely high viscosity. The oil is commonly used to lubricate the heat roller in a photo copier or laser printer to prevent the thermoplastic ink from sticking to the roll.

It is slipperier than snot on a glass doorknob and it migrates like crazy. If you spill some on a tile or lino floor you have to rip up the floor and replace it. It's nearly impossible to remove from most surfaces and it is extremely stable. It never evaporates, even at high temperatures like 400F. It is excellent for lubricating things in specific circumstances where nothing else can do the job and is entirely non toxic. You can fry food in it although the FDA hasn't approved it.

cmiller231
01-09-2007, 09:05 PM
Evan: Where do i buy it? Chris

garyphansen
01-09-2007, 09:10 PM
Thanks Evan!

Evan
01-09-2007, 09:11 PM
I don't know exactly. I still have several quarts of the stuff in a couple of different grades left over from when I worked for Xerox. The wipers used on the heat rolls of various xerographic machines such as copiers etc are saturated with it. The larger machines use it by the liter or more and you could probably "borrow" some from just about any copier technician.

Oh yeah, most don't know the actual name of it. It's usually called fuser oil.

A.K. Boomer
01-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Hey Evan, is it that clearish whitish looking grease that you see on the internals of many electronic/mechanical plastic devises? if so you just solved a mystery for me:p

Evan
01-09-2007, 09:31 PM
Nope. Silicone oil is crystal clear. What you are seeing is most probably white lithium grease.

A.K. Boomer
01-09-2007, 09:41 PM
So if its clear it could be the stuff your talking about? I know much of the stuff was clear and lots may have been mostly transparent with a slight white hue, i know it wasnt white lithium though cus thats all white right?

Your Old Dog
01-09-2007, 10:11 PM
Isn't Vasoline cheaper and safer as a topical aide? Certainly slippery enough to get the job done. :D

Evan
01-09-2007, 10:41 PM
It isn't used normally to lubricate consumer products. It's expensive compared to acceptable alternatives such as lithium grease. Also, the migration problem can be an issue. When I worked with it daily I often wore gloves to keep it off my hands. Not because of any toxicity issues but because it made it difficult to even pick up tools or handle the steering wheel.

If it ever gets on a surface you will never be able to paint it successfully.

BillH
01-09-2007, 10:56 PM
It isn't used normally to lubricate consumer products. It's expensive compared to acceptable alternatives such as lithium grease. Also, the migration problem can be an issue. When I worked with it daily I often wore gloves to keep it off my hands. Not because of any toxicity issues but because it made it difficult to even pick up tools or handle the steering wheel.

If it ever gets on a surface you will never be able to paint it successfully.
SO if you were to run that stuff through a high powered atomizer in the middle of a professional paint shop...
Man, science can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands...

Mcostello
01-09-2007, 11:11 PM
The white paste you see on electrical parts might be heat sink paste.

darryl
01-10-2007, 01:28 AM
Well isn't that ironic. I've just been playing with some polymethylsiloxane the past couple days. Silicone brake fluid. Obviously it's high temperature capability is taken advantage of for braking systems. I don't know what more there is to it as brake fluid, but the container doesn't list any other ingredients. It does say safe for painted surfaces, but I gotta wonder.

Not to hijack the thread, but my application was as a thinner for GI-1000 molding rubber. I'm not sure if it interferes with curing, but silicone oil is called for as a thinner, so I tried it. A lot of it. 50/50, actually. It still hasn't cured, but the molding rubber is old and may not cure well anymore anyway. And probably I mixed in way too much, should have probably kept it to 10% or less. More experimentation is needed. So far I have not gotten a buzz, nauseous, hungry, gasseous, or weak from playing with it. I don't intend to cook breakfast in it. :)

As far as low friction materials in solid form, there's frelon and rulon, aside from the normally known ones like PE and teflon.

Evan
01-10-2007, 01:58 AM
It is perfectly safe for painted surfaces. In fact, it basically inert. Just don't try to paint over it.

It does have one important use I didn't mention:

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/bb0.jpg

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2007, 02:12 AM
If it ever gets on a surface you will never be able to paint it successfully.


sounds like armor-all might have some of that stuff in it, I know if you get that stuff on paint its tuff to paint over it...


ohh yeah, i prefer all natural ;>}

darryl
01-10-2007, 03:33 AM
Hmmm. Now if those puppies were filled with silly putty, you could mold them to any shape you wanted. Maybe you could do away with that 'containment' sling. :) Still dangerous though- someone could lose an eye. :)

fixxit
01-10-2007, 03:39 AM
It is available in a thickened form as Dow Corning "high vacuum silicon grease."
This ultra pure thick form tends to stay where you put it.

Great stuff. It is almost totally inert.
It is useful from -40F to +400F.

There is a variant form available as Dow Corning compound 111 valve lubricant and sealant.

Evan is correct about not being able to paint a surface that it gets on.
I have never found any sovent that will totally remove the stuff.

old-biker-uk
01-10-2007, 04:56 AM
Hey YOD - Did you mean 'put it on the bedroom door handle to keep the kids out' ?
Mark

Norman Atkinson
01-10-2007, 08:28 AM
On the other channel, they/we have been prattling about linseed oil.

Dare I tell them that to stop a boil over- silicone fluid was put in the kettle?

Norm

mike petree
01-10-2007, 08:57 AM
I wipe down my kids sliding board with the stuff. Just a tiny bit on a paper towel and it's off to the races!

Evan
01-10-2007, 10:51 AM
!

This has turned out to be an extremely interesting thread for me, to say the least.

Last night when I was rummaging around my server files looking for the pic of the inflated mammaries a small niggling sensation developed in my frontal lobes (I mean brain :) ).

Anyway, I did some research. Silicone gel was used for a long time to fill breast implants and as most are aware a great deal of controversy surrounds the possible safety of introducing this material into the body, enough so that it cost Dow Corning a great deal of money.

It is very difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff on this issue as there are a lot of people out there with an agenda.

What I did find is of great personal interest to me and very relevant. The FDA financed a study that concluded in 2001. In a nutshell, it found that women with leaking breast implants filled with silicone oil had a ~ 3 times higher rate of fibromyalgia. There seems to be a very statistically significant correlation between long term exposure to leaking implants and fibromyalgia, but only implants filled with silicone gel, not saline.

I have fibromyalgia, an invisible and disabling condition that is very uncommon in men. I was exposed to silicone oil on a daily basis for 23 years. My hands would sometimes be drenched in the stuff and without doubt some of it made it into my body on food etc because it is so difficult to clean off. The first symptoms of fibromyalgia began to show up in the mid '80s when I had been employed by Xerox for some ten years already. Back then fibromyalgia was not an accepted diagnosis and my doctors had no idea what the problem was.

Now the question is, what do I do with this information?

thistle
01-10-2007, 11:02 AM
Now the question is, what do I do with this information?[/QUOTE]


start finding out who else, that was doing the same thing , has a problem .

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2007, 11:03 AM
You never know Evan, it could be the contributing factor --- Im told that a Dermatoligist looks at skin a little defferently than most folk, lots of us see it as a barrier but they tend to see it as a "sponge" Our skin is our largest organ and when coated with a substance the substance generally goes systemic... I think your on to something, I also know that candida is somewhat linked to fibromyalgia and if its intestinal there is another area of vast surface area to consider, One thing for sure - silicone is not harmless to the body, there is to much evidence otherwise, it's destroyed allot of lives...

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2007, 11:03 AM
Now the question is, what do I do with this information?


start finding out who else who worked with you or doing the same thing has a problem .[/QUOTE]



Thats useing your head bro... Maybe call up a few old co-workers?

Evan
01-10-2007, 11:13 AM
start finding out who else who worked with you or doing the same thing has a problem

That is unfortunately nearly impossible. I worked here in what is a remote one man territory. I didn't have any coworkers that I could easily track down, especially from 20 or 30 years ago. As well, even if silicone oil is correlated with FMS in men it is still a rare condition in men. The sample size wouldn't be nearly large enough. Also, FMS has only been recognized as a true not-a-figment-of-your-imagination condition for the last ten years or so. It is only in recent times that they have found real (but subtle) internal physical changes that are associated with the condition.

john hobdeclipe
01-10-2007, 11:21 AM
Now the question is, what do I do with this information?

Continue your research, get all the facts straight, build a strong case.

It would be good if you could make a sufficiently strong claim to zerox and others that would allow you to get some form of compensation.

You also have a chance now to save others from this same problem. If indeed the connection can be proven...a true cause / effect relationship, then this needs to be publicized.

Evan
01-10-2007, 11:32 AM
Yes, that is what I have been thinking. I have no idea how to go about it. I have been out of the company for 9 years and have few connections left in the company.

Hmm. I do have one idea. There is/was a website run by and for current and former employees of Xerox in North America. It never mentions Xerox by name but I think I can find it if it still exists.

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2007, 11:54 AM
I was going to say forget xerox and go right to the horses mouth --- but if you do that then you have to get past the manufacturers cover ups so maybe a bad idea, I just went to the garage to check out the ingredients in armor-all but i only have turtle wax 2001 protectant and it does not give the ingredients, still i think i will wear gloves when aplying to my car interior -----
Evan --- you need to check into other places that have used this stuff to the extreme, i bet there are places that had much more worker exposure than what you had and tons of people for a data base ----- I told you before that if you cant find it nobody can, you are the best info hound in the bizz, I hope you find some information that helps you with your condition --- gotta keep you around to be able to butt heads with you now and then:p
That being said im also on a quest for my niece who has MS, if anybody knows of any "on the fringe" treatment theories let me know, she's probably tried it already but you never know, being ill sucks, iv had a taste of it and dont like it when i hear about others who are suffering, one of the things that amazes me about this day and age is we got space probes landing on other planets and sending back pictures and all kinds of info yet we cant stop these little things right under our microscopes and/or cant figure out the chemistry:(
The one thing i learned about being sick --- take action and keep the hope, and dont ever let it go...

pcarpenter
01-10-2007, 01:12 PM
I think the first question is: "Is it information or mis-associated disinformation" I am not trying to suggest either, but it is important to determine whether there is true cause and effect or not. I am sure one to want to know if something I am doing or did was a bad idea so I don't repeat it, but it is important to be able to identify true cause and effect.

I showered this morning and then had coffee when I got to work....come to think of it, I shower every morning, and have coffee every morning....I wonder if showering causes coffee drinking :confused:

Fortunately, not everything that ends up being toxic if injected penetrates the epidermis or we would be in serious trouble. Ruptured implants put large volumes of silicone gel inside human tissue. Ingestion quantities of stuff from our hands is pretty small. Still, who knows?

I did PC and printer repair for a decade or so before I started administering servers and had plenty of contact with slimy fuser wipers and even some spilled fuser oil. I don't think I have fibromyalgia in spite of aches and pains and feeling tired a lot...but who knows. I also aged a couple of decades, so it is hard to separate things that develop from aging from things that may be exposure related. I probably didn't deal with it in the volumes you did, however Evan.

Paul

Wirecutter
01-10-2007, 01:42 PM
Wait a minute. I still have questions about this lube stuff.

I recently dismantled a Minolta color laser printer. The printer itself was of poor design, hard to maintain, and expensive to keep in consummables. It did have lots of neat mechanicals I kept, and finally, it used the aforementioned fuser oil.

I've also installed a hydraulic brake on my electric gokart, which uses Dot 5 (silicone based) brake fluid. Damn slippery stuff, and hard to get rid of or clean off of anything.

Finally, years ago when I worked with oceanographic equipment, we used to grease the sealing o-rings with Dow high-vacuum silicone grease. Not really as a lube, but as a sealing component - that high-vacuum grease was really not a good lubricant. It was used because it wouldn't boil in an vacuum or in the presence of similar pressure differential.

Are you saying that all these products are basically the same thing in differnt viscosities? (Well, the fuser oil and the brake fluid are about the same, IIRC.) Are you saying that I could have, for example, saved myself a trip to the auto parts store and used fuser oil in my gokart brake? I find that very interesting.

Oh, and thanks for the new and fascinating info and the thread.

-Mark

Evan
01-10-2007, 01:59 PM
The FDA study isn't the only one to draw a statistically signifcant correlation between silicone oil and FMS and/or connective tissue disorders. There is a fairly large study in Holland that found the same thing and one in Denmark too.

I am well aware that correlation does not prove causation. It does however give a strong indication that there may be a connection whereas a lack of correlation generally does prove the absence of causation.


The main problem is the very low prevalence of FMS in men. The diagnosed rate in men in Canada is approximately 1 in 1000 males. This would of course include any cases that may have been induced by exposure to causative factors. With such a rate the number of cases to be expected among the population of Xerox service reps (predominately male) would be less than 2 to 4 nation wide.

In order to find a correlation it would be necessary to have access to the medical records of all the employees of the company including those who did have exposure and similar employees that didn't.

My exposure in the first ten years of employment was considerable as no precautions were taken to avoid exposure and the machines in use then used the stuff by the gallons. I would commonly carry around a couple of gallons of the oil in my spare parts and dealt with it every day. Cleaning up leaks and minor spills (on a drop cloth with an impervious mylar layer) was a common occurence. In the first decade of my employment the company did not supply us with protective gloves and nobody I knew used any. The material was considered completely harmless.

Evan
01-10-2007, 02:04 PM
Are you saying that all these products are basically the same thing in differnt viscosities?
No, not exactly. There are many different formulations that go by different names but they all contain a similar molecular structure.

Silicone fuser oil is polydimethylsiloxane and that is one of the most widely used formulations.

pcarpenter
01-10-2007, 02:41 PM
There is a common misconception with petroleum lubricants that may or may not be applicable here as well.

Often, thick grease is presumed to mean a higher viscosity lubricant. In point of fact, grease is oil with a thickening agent that is used to "hold" the oil. There are various thickness gradings for grease (NLGI 1,2, etc.) that reference the viscosity of the grease, but this is separate from the viscosity of the oil that went into that grease. Grease gives up its lubricant to the part being lubricated and it is important to note the viscosity of the oil that will be liberated to the part, separate from the viscosity of the grease itself. In short, the viscosity of the soap thickener may seem to imply more viscosity of the base oil the grease contains, but not necessarily.

If you look at the spec sheets for most greases, they will tell you the viscosity of the base oil. Grease is grease is not really the case, and it is worth making sure you get the right stuff for the application at hand.

Paul

Evan
01-10-2007, 03:00 PM
PDMS doesn't work the same in that respect. By changing the conditions under which it is formulated the viscosity can be changed. It doesn't rely on any fillers or soaps to change viscosity.

thistle
01-10-2007, 03:33 PM
That is unfortunately nearly impossible. I worked here in what is a remote one man territory. I didn't have any coworkers that I could easily track down, especially from 20 or 30 years ago. As well, even if silicone oil is correlated with FMS in men it is still a rare condition in men. The sample size wouldn't be nearly large enough. Also, FMS has only been recognized as a true not-a-figment-of-your-imagination condition for the last ten years or so. It is only in recent times that they have found real (but subtle) internal physical changes that are associated with the condition.



no not impossible , mention keywords such as silicon , fms ,xerox ect ect here enough and it will start climbing up the the google list so that someone else might pick up the thread.

also i am sure there must be a online group who deals with this disorder, some one konws something somewhere

ttok
01-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Evan - Contact the law firm of Dewey, Cheatam & Howe before the two year statute of limitations expires! A.T.

Norman Atkinson
01-10-2007, 04:07 PM
Not always the very unserious character but I was able to trace people exactly 50 years earlier. I doubt that the same will apply but I set off to trace names. Do the people appear say in a newspaper or trade paper which you could access? Does Canada have a point where names adds and numbers appear as in a large-ish public library? You live near one of the biggest cities. Do you have recent census returns which can be accessed?
Do you have a CD with all the phone numbers etc? Do you have rating information or voters lists?

The foregoing is what I did. Remember that my quest was officially denied by
HM Government and the Metropolitan Police and that it never happened.

Evan, you only need to solve one or two names and the rest opens up like a book. The pieces finally start to come together like a jigsaw.

So almost 60 years now and someone has said " Norman , will you write the story of your RAF Squadron in 1948-50 when you were there" Remember again that the records were destroyed because the place had one face and a secret face underneath it. Maybe, there was yet another level of secrecy but
things like 'Heavy Water' and sabotage schools emerge.
I can do it and you can. You only need a beginning- no matter how tiny.

Good luck. You have the brain to succeed.

Norm

PS you do know that a survey of 1000 sufferers has been conducted?

Evan
01-10-2007, 04:41 PM
You live near one of the biggest cities.
:D

You really must visit some time Norman. "Near" is a very relative term here. When I say "just down the road" around here that includes anything within a 100 kilometer radius. Vancouver is a 14 hour round trip distant from here and that's at 110km per hour.



no not impossible , mention keywords such as silicon , fms ,xerox ect ect here enough and it will start climbing up the the google list so that someone else might pick up the thread.

also i am sure there must be a online group who deals with this disorder, some one konws something somewhere
Maybe. There is a men's support group online for FMS sufferers. I never even bothered posting there. What a bunch of whingers. Each one trying to outdo the next with how bad their symptoms are.

The biggest problem with FMS in men is that it is so uncommon. They have no idea what causes it in women other than some correlations with traumatic medical events or infections and as I have now discovered, possible exposure to PDMS.

The main problem is trying to study it in men. With a prevalence of only 0.1% you need a population of at least several million to find enough participants to do a study. The very few studies that have been done with men have very small sample sizes but do indicate that the condition presents quite differently than in women. This is very likely because of hormonal differences. Because the prevalence in men is so low it has a very low priority for funding studies of FMS in men.

Who knows? Maybe it is in part so much more prevalent in women (ten times more common) because they make so many more of the photocopies and are more often responsible for looking after the copiers in the office, especially in the 1950s to 1980s. It's only in the last 15 years that it has been formally recognized at all and only in the last ten that definitive biological differences have been found associated with the condition.

Norman Atkinson
01-10-2007, 05:28 PM
Evan.

I simply Googled ' FMS and silicon' as an after thought after bunging in my comments about tracing contacts from the past.

Nothing is easy to live with.

Norm

SGW
01-15-2007, 08:54 PM
Speaking of slippery stuff...and "safe" things that may turn out to be dangerous...does anybody know what the magic ingredient in Rain-X window treatment is? ( www.rainx.com )

Evan
01-15-2007, 09:17 PM
I was going to mention that. It's... wait for it...
Polydimethylsiloxane.

They won't admit it on the MSDS but it says on the bottle (I have one in front of me) that it contains "siloxanes" and provides the CAS#. That happens to be 63148-62-9.



Super-Low Viscosity
(Volatile) Silicones

Viscosities:
0.65cSt Hexamethyldisiloxane (CAS# 107-46-0)
1cSt Octamethyltrisiloxane (CAS# 107-51-7)
1.5cSt Decamethyltetrasiloxane (CAS# 141-62-8) / Dodecamethylpentasiloxane (CAS# 141-63-9)
3cSt Polydimethylsiloxanes (63148-62-9) / Dodecamethylpentasiloxane (CAS# 141-63-9)

http://www.clearcoproducts.com/standard_pure_silicones.html

garyphansen
01-15-2007, 09:24 PM
Evan: Would you consider using this to lub the clampping bar that holds down the back side of the saddle of your South Bend Lathe, or would you just use teflon grease? Gary P. Hansen

Evan
01-15-2007, 09:31 PM
No way I would use silicone lubes on my machine tools. I might want to paint the machine or something I make on it someday. The Rain-X works great on snow plow blades though.

Sophiedoc
01-15-2007, 10:14 PM
In WW2 Monsanto used a chemical in the war effort which was then sent to Virginia.No one used gloves then.Regular exposure increased incidence of bladder cancer up to 50% of those exposed and very limited exposure also upped the chances.I've acquired what I believe is FMS in my old days.Being a male and old I have to believe the death of my only son somehow triggered this. A book by a Harvard rehab Doc (John Sarno M.D.) is a very good read.

Evan
01-15-2007, 10:32 PM
I don't think polydimethylsiloxane poses any significant hazard in casual use such a Rain-X or occasional use in other products. If it did there would be unequivocal evidence of the hazard. My exposure was typical only of service reps working on particular models of machines. In many cases service reps would not have been exposed much or at all depending on the product lines they worked on. This combined with the rarity of FMS in males makes it impossible to draw statistically valid conclusions without an enormous sample size.

It will be interesting to see what my doctor has to say about it when I see her tomorrow morning.

JCHannum
01-15-2007, 10:59 PM
I would think that any relation between PDMS and FMS or anything else could be rather easily determined by studying those directly involved in the manufacture, blending and packaging of the various products. Their exposure would be much higher than that of the end user.

Evan
01-16-2007, 12:10 AM
I am sure the manuacturing process is totally automated. The packaging for the products I used was extremely well sealed because of the high potential for migration and slipping problems if it leaked. I doubt if the people involved in the manufacture have any exposure as it is 99.99999% non-volatile ( I didn't make up the nines...). This was a very important consideration because even traces on optics destroy the function. That was a "bug" that was frequently used in training classes to show the importance of preventing migration via cleaning cloths. All cleaning cloths were bagged and disposed after one use.

It would be interesting to know if there are other occupations where routine exposure occurs, especially ones that employ a significant number of women. Until fairly recently the Xerox service rep force was around 95% male. That was in spite of considerable effort on the part of the company to recruit females.

JCHannum
01-16-2007, 11:46 AM
I am sure the manuacturing process is totally automated. The packaging for the products I used was extremely well sealed because of the high potential for migration and slipping problems if it leaked. I doubt if the people involved in the manufacture have any exposure as it is 99.99999% non-volatile.

It is pretty obvious you have not spent too much time in a manufacturing environment. Things spill, slop, splash, stop, break, burst, leak, jam and drip ad nauseum. Then the maintenance crew, and/or the line operating personell have to wade in (often quite literally) and put it right, BTDT. The exposure is real and full time.

Other potentially high exposure risks would be those involved in the secondary market. That is those involved in using the bulk material to manufacture formulations other than full strength. The Rain-X production people for instance.

It may or may not be contributary to FMS, but there are certainly a lot more people available to provide a sample than only end users such as Xerox techs.

I have a can of it here that I got from a lab tech where I previously worked, they got it for trial in a product, and gave it to me when it was no longer needed. It is a plain old, screw cap "tin" can.

pcarpenter
01-16-2007, 12:59 PM
Regarding the use of polydimethylsiloxane (sp?) on machine tools....I did find one good use for it deep in the internals of my milling machine head.

As I was putting my BP mill vari-speed drive motor sheaves back on the spindle, I thought that a tiny dose of that on the spindle might be just the ticket. It's slicker than snot and will do the job with just a tiny film. For those who are familiar with this assembly, one sheave moves up and down on the motor spindle to change diameter of the pulley pair. This sheave half has a plastic bushing in it that is epoxied in place (along with a plastic key) to minimize wear on the spindle. That cuts down on the number of things that might be a valid lubricant due to risk of damage of the plastic. You can use them dry, but reducing friction should increase their life.

I still don't have the mill finished, so cannot comment on functionality, but likely I will not know if it was a worthwhile move for many years.

Paul